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Author Topic: 3DFibs fool  (Read 16078 times)
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fanimation
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« on: February 02, 2005, 01:09:53 AM »

First Sorry,

i cant  believe that the 3DFibs programm works without fool.

If i play against the computer i lost 9 from 10 games.

That´s  no -

May be i am a very bad player, but a question.

Why the computer need only one chance to come back to the board and in the same position i need 20?

Why it is so.

And, sorry if you dont believe me i make from 100 Games log and have save them.

All the same.

3DFibs is realy very user friendly, but play with fool.

Thanks.
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tucsonAZ
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« Reply #1 on: February 02, 2005, 03:13:24 AM »

Quote
First Sorry,

i cant  believe that the 3DFibs programm works without fool.

If i play against the computer i lost 9 from 10 games.

That´s  no -

May be i am a very bad player, but a question.

Why the computer need only one chance to come back to the board and in the same position i need 20?

Why it is so.

And, sorry if you dont believe me i make from 100 Games log and have save them.

All the same.

3DFibs is realy very user friendly, but play with fool.

Thanks.

Hi,

It is quite normal to suspect the bots since they win so many games. If you have saved your matches, why not convert them to jf.mat format and evauate them for errors using gnubg.  You may be surprised at how many obvious moves you have missed. Gnubg also has a pretty good luck factor analysis so you can see if you really were unlucky but played good, or if you played bad and were just lucky. It is a good way to improve your game. It is used by almost all high level players and it is an accepted software in the backgammon community.

maareyes (tucsonAZ on fibs)
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« Reply #1 on: February 02, 2005, 03:13:24 AM »

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lewscannon
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« Reply #2 on: February 02, 2005, 03:04:39 PM »

Quote
Quote
First Sorry,

i cant  believe that the 3DFibs programm works without fool.

If i play against the computer i lost 9 from 10 games.

That´s  no -

May be i am a very bad player, but a question.

Why the computer need only one chance to come back to the board and in the same position i need 20?

Why it is so.

And, sorry if you dont believe me i make from 100 Games log and have save them.

All the same.

3DFibs is realy very user friendly, but play with fool.

Thanks.

Hi,

It is quite normal to suspect the bots since they win so many games. If you have saved your matches, why not convert them to jf.mat format and evauate them for errors using gnubg.  You may be surprised at how many obvious moves you have missed. Gnubg also has a pretty good luck factor analysis so you can see if you really were unlucky but played good, or if you played bad and were just lucky. It is a good way to improve your game. It is used by almost all high level players and it is an accepted software in the backgammon community.

maareyes (tucsonAZ on fibs)
Clearly, TusconAZ is part of the conspiracy. He/she probably designs bots and cackles evilly while doing so. I'm a fairly high-rated player, but 3d fibs has a certain way of rolling itself out of almost anything I can send its way most of the time. God forbid that I should ever gammon the thing. In all seriousness, though, it seems to be almost a timed thing, and that's what's strange about it. Some days I own it, and most others it kills me. And the matches are never close, either way. It makes regular Fibs look normal.

Sincerely,

lewscannon
c/o NY Mental Hospital
Paranoid Division
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Shades
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« Reply #3 on: February 02, 2005, 03:32:49 PM »

Quote


Hi,

It is quite normal to suspect the bots since they win so many games.
question was.... "Why the computer need only one chance to come back to the board and in the same position i need 20?"....  which you don't respond at all... Tears  
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« Reply #4 on: February 02, 2005, 06:12:17 PM »

I have observed that not only the computers are so incredibly lucky, but every single one of my human opponent as well! Guess, it's a kind of conspiracy, don't know how to solve that problem ...

Edit:
To be a bit constructive:
http://www.bkgm.com/rgb/rgb.cgi?view+970
http://www.bkgm.com/rgb/rgb.cgi?view+1152
It's a really old discussion ... and the answer still is: No, the bots don't cheat, but we all are bad players in comparison to them (and sometimes poor losers).
« Last Edit: February 02, 2005, 06:23:28 PM by soky » Logged
Shades
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« Reply #5 on: February 02, 2005, 11:37:10 PM »

Quote
I have observed that not only the computers are so incredibly lucky, but every single one of my human opponent as well! Guess, it's a kind of conspiracy, don't know how to solve that problem ...

Edit:
To be a bit constructive:
http://www.bkgm.com/rgb/rgb.cgi?view+970
http://www.bkgm.com/rgb/rgb.cgi?view+1152
It's a really old discussion ... and the answer still is: No, the bots don't cheat, but we all are bad players in comparison to them (and sometimes poor losers).

 if you can't answer the question... why not keep your mouth shut??... Always big words and finally just say some crap...!!! no  
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socksey
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« Reply #6 on: February 03, 2005, 12:28:57 AM »

As an old friend of mine was fond of saying...........The answer is that there is no answer.  There is only the search.   Tongue

socksey



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« Reply #7 on: February 03, 2005, 06:58:11 PM »

Quote
As an old friend of mine was fond of saying...........The answer is that there is no answer.  There is only the search.   Tongue

socksey



"Documentation is like sex when it is good, it is very, very good; and when it is bad, it is better than nothing."  - Dick Brandon
...isn't still an answer to a reasonable question....
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« Reply #8 on: February 03, 2005, 10:42:10 PM »

If you look closely, I think you have the answer.   Wink

What was the question?    rolleyes

socksey



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« Last Edit: February 03, 2005, 10:45:30 PM by socksey » Logged
Shades
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« Reply #9 on: February 04, 2005, 03:14:12 PM »

Quote
If you look closely, I think you have the answer.   Wink

What was the question?    rolleyes

socksey



To write with a broken pencil is pointless. - anonymous
sure is..... making a joke and walking around it as usual... cool  
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Kari_Grandi
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« Reply #10 on: February 04, 2005, 06:41:08 PM »

yes Shades,

it's pointless to complain about dice (as we once talked in shouts).
I've lost about 40 rating points in 2 days but I'll survive Wink

Kari
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fanimation
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« Reply #11 on: February 04, 2005, 08:40:00 PM »

Hello Fanimation here,

sorry may be my english is not so well but i hope you will understand me.

First and again, i love it to play with that realy nice tool 3dfibs, there is nothing about the design, useabillity and so on, but.

I do not understand why people mean if someone wrote:

"I need 20 times to come back to the board, but 3dfibs need only 2-3 change"

why you dont believe him?

Why is that so, you thing i am a very great and giant idiot to wrote that this what happened is unpossible.

Sorry, but if i will lost 8 games from 10 that ok. But 10 from 10, without a possibility to win, thats not normal.

tucsonAZ wrote:

"It is quite normal to suspect the bots since they win so many games. If you have saved your matches, why not convert them to jf.mat format and evauate them for errors using gnubg. You may be surprised at how many obvious moves you have missed. Gnubg also has a pretty good luck factor analysis so you can see if you really were unlucky but played good, or if you played bad and were just lucky. It is a good way to improve your game. It is used by almost all high level players and it is an accepted software in the backgammon community."

Sorry,  tucsonAZ i know what you mean. But thing about it.
You go and buy a car to drive with it.
Then you see, the car dont work like you think a car must work.
Now the Seller say to you:
O, if you will drive that car like a car, please buy this for 2000 $ and it will do what a car has to do.

No, if i download a Game (thank god is free, and thanks all the developers for their great job) i wont to play and not more.

Another problem of 3dfibs is, that if i let one dice alone, the computer hit it out of the board by the first possibility  -  but if the computer let one dice alone i need 20 time to hit him out.
I wont say to you:
I am afraid to play like i play, because if i let one dice alone he hit me out. What can i do?

Please, i cry to the 3DFibs Community, try to play again the computer and say to me you lie, please but i cant believe that.
I think, that there is a big, big, big bug in the code.

I am sorry to wrote that but thats all what i can say.

regards.




 
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Noah
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« Reply #12 on: February 04, 2005, 09:09:52 PM »

the computer need only one chance to come back to the board cause you let that field open.
Yor blot was hit cause it was placed on a wrong position.

You miss your changes to come in or shoot an blot cause you throw the wrong numbers on the dice.

An other question.
I have this on fibs... After a few opening rolls my first blot is ALWAYS hit. I can agree with that cause the opponent board has plenty of space to get in But why do i ALWAYS throw a not coming in 6-6 at this moment?
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Deurdonderen
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« Reply #13 on: February 04, 2005, 10:17:11 PM »

Quote
the computer need only one chance to come back to the board cause you let that field open.
Yor blot was hit cause it was placed on a wrong position.

You miss your changes to come in or shoot an blot cause you throw the wrong numbers on the dice.

An other question.
I have this on fibs... After a few opening rolls my first blot is ALWAYS hit. I can agree with that cause the opponent board has plenty of space to get in But why do i ALWAYS throw a not coming in 6-6 at this moment?
you hit the nail right on the head Noah....  Cheesy  
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tucsonAZ
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« Reply #14 on: February 05, 2005, 04:35:36 AM »

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Hello Fanimation here,

..why is that so, you thing i am a very great and giant idiot ?

 
 Cheesy  no famination.  If I thought you were in idiot I would simply ignore you. It is because I believed your post was genuine that I bother to reply.  

Why do you need 20 rolls to get off the bar and the computer needs only 2-3?

The answer is simple. Luck.

Do you always have bad luck and the computer always has good luck?

I cant say. I would have analyze the matches with gnubg.  Maybe you had "go to bed" and "hahahah" luck factor for several games in a row. This happens sometimes.

How about posting some of those saved games so we can see what is going on..



maareyes
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fanimation
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« Reply #15 on: February 05, 2005, 02:05:26 PM »

Hi tucsonAZ,

thanks for your question. But sorry i not believe in Luck. You know luck is somethink that happended one.

If you play lotto or odd-sett or something like that, have you heard that the same person strike 10 times the Jackpot - wins nonstop - have you heard something about it.

Till you tell me something about luck at 3dfibs, i havent heard or read something about this giant luck.

That is what 3DFibs doing, 3DFibs wins 20 time with luck - strike the jackpot.

Ok, if that realy is luck, why i have not the same luck? Where the computer know who is me and 3dfibs?
Right, the computer dont know this, but 3dfibs now this.

Therefore, this is not luck. It have nothing to do with luck. Believe me.

Well i thing i have nerved this community to much, but sorry i must talk with someone who have the same game and the same "unluck" like me.

regards.  Yes  
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« Reply #16 on: February 05, 2005, 03:31:12 PM »

Hi there,

Sometimes i am very unlucky like you. I used to lose much more games in a row like you. After that i heard some other people's advice and i download an analyzer the gnu one which it's free.  i realize that i was unlucky but i did some wrong moves too.  I try to improve my skills as i can't do anything about my luck.

Bots are programmed to play (without errors) any dice. Watch them, watch high rating players and u can learn something more.

After that, if u lose a match that the analyzer shows that u play good but the opponent was lucky, then u can be ok with yourself! It was not your fault!!! It was just a matter of pure luck!!!
 
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fanimation
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« Reply #17 on: February 05, 2005, 04:04:48 PM »

Hi adamosad,

i dont believe it.

When that what you mean will be right, then all the people who playing with 3dfibs needs a bot which control tool.

Think about what you and other people are wrote. You wrote that it is normal that 3dfibs have 9 from 10 times luck. That is unbelieveable.

OK, i know that i am playing very bad. Therefore it is not a problem to los often.

But, if you will be a beginner, and now the rules and if you habe luck than you must win.

Here you cant, why, because 3dfibs fool.

I am not a child and cry if i lost, but i am old enough to understand who is a normal game and who is fool.

If the other wins mostly, then there is some think in the backdoor.

Believe it.

By and greeting.s
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tucsonAZ
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« Reply #18 on: February 05, 2005, 04:35:10 PM »

Quote

..Therefore, this is not luck. It have nothing to do with luck. Believe me...

 

 
If you are interested in playing a backgammon program but wish to roll your own real dice, try Jellyfish

http://www.jellyfish-backgammon.com/

use the manual dice preference setting.

Or gnubg.

Let me know if you win more games this way and I will check the 3dfibs code for errors.

maareyes (tucsonAZ on fibs)
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fanimation
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« Reply #19 on: February 05, 2005, 05:59:33 PM »

HI tucsonAZ,

thanks for that link. I will try this.

A,gain i wont that all people on this board know, that i realy like that software.

I course it make me crazy, but if must prefered one it will be this tool.

Please dont understand me wrong, i dont wont to say some body:

"It is you guilt"

I wont only wrote my frustration, therefore thanks again for that great feedback an the sympathy.

TucsonAZ, if i try it i will wrote here again. Thanks again.

greetings.
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« Reply #20 on: April 27, 2006, 08:39:50 AM »

Strange things happen.

Does the computer in offline play seem to get lucky rolls?  Hell yea.
I win about 1/3rd of the time agianst the computer but some strage things I notice is

1) I often get a 2:1 roll for the first roll very often but the computer I've only seen get it about 2 times

2) The computer seems to be able to get its single stacks to double normally on the next roll.  I'm lucky to do that 1/3rd of the time.

3) The computer hardly ever gets stuck with a piece in the middle more then 1 roll even if I have all but 1 spt open, ie it gets the number it needs far more then the 1/3rd chance it should.

4) The computer gets great streaks at the end when the match is close and my rolls seem to goto the toilet.  I just played a game and rolled 2:1 five times in a row....5!!!!

5) Last and most desturbing is I have played quite a few games where my roll didn't let me move when I get like a 4:2 on my first roll.  When I click on the dice it rerolls to something like 5:1, 2:1 or 6:2 most of the time.  I'd pass this off as a graphics glitch but it also happens when I'm second on my first roll....kind of like the program rolled the dice, displayed the dice then realise it was an ok first roll and randomly makes me reroll my 1st roll.

I do good agianst human apponents.  I realise the computer is "World Class" but its streaks seem a little dodgy.   Not that it cheats every roll but more like if it got a crappy roll it rolls agian.



#5 just happened to me agian....here is the text
Starting a new game with GnuBG.
You rolled 5 , GnuBG rolled 3
It's your turn to move.
GnuBG moves 13-7 8-7


At this point I see my roll at 5:3  Why does it say GNUGB moves?  It has not moved...I'm first....I've got a good roll!  So I click my dice and it rerolls

Starting a new game with GnuBG.
You rolled 5 , GnuBG rolled 3
It's your turn to move.
GnuBG moves 13-7 8-7
You roll 2 and 1.


WOOOO what a surprise!!!!  2:1

Now tell me there isn't something dodgy going on there!
 
« Last Edit: April 27, 2006, 08:50:15 AM by Thentar » Logged
diane
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« Reply #21 on: April 27, 2006, 05:57:13 PM »

Are you talking about using GNU to play - against it - or the feature in 3D?

If you use GNU - you can roll your own dice and manually enter the rolls.  If you do that - you might get a better feel for just how often unpleasant rolls come up with real precision dice, rolled by your own hand - and no cheating mind... Wink

Course it is a bit long winded....
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« Reply #22 on: April 28, 2006, 12:23:55 AM »

I'm using 3dFiBs, Not to farmiliar with the program.  Press F3 to start ... pick the number of point and go.  I haven't found any option where you can roll the dice manually
 
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« Reply #23 on: April 28, 2006, 12:40:52 AM »

Ahh, no, in 3d fibs you have to have the computer rolls.  I still suggest trying GNU - google it and get it for free, the  try the manual rolls, you will be surprised - I am sure  Tongue  
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« Reply #24 on: April 28, 2006, 04:22:08 AM »

Thanks I'll give that a go.
 
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« Reply #25 on: April 28, 2006, 10:30:13 AM »

Just analyse your matches and you will see that Dices are not the problem  cool  
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« Reply #26 on: November 01, 2009, 07:49:33 PM »

3dfibs is definitly broken - I used to beat it 80% time - now I'm lucky to win 1 in 10.
Just used Jellyfish for the first time and beat it 5 out of 5 so its not my playing.

Like a previous poster I also get the bug where your first roll won't work, then you roll some new dice.

Another one is interesting bug that works in your favour - try messing with lots of doubling - you get an extra turn!
eg, the computer doubles and you double and double again and then throw 5-2 - you get to move 5 then 2 then 2 again! (always the lower dice value!).

And as another poster said - if you need a 2 to get out, you will probably get 6-6 three times in a row, then 4-5
6-1 and every conbination apart from a 2. As soon as the computer locks the 2, you get 2s!

If its a simple run off, the computer will get consistantly high dice while you get 2-1 three times in a row.


I suspect that the programme works out what dice would be favourable for the next move and then weights the probability of it getting those numbers depending on your skill level - so the best roll you could get might need to be 4-3, it lowers the chances of you getting it by adding extra useless numbers like 6-6 to the 'pot' it
draws from.













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« Reply #27 on: November 02, 2009, 04:29:57 PM »

While there may be some obscure bugs in the 3DFibs interface when using it for human vs computer play, your dice whining is off base.

It doesn't cheat with the dice.  That's a common perception but there's zero evidence that it does, and quite a lot of evidence (e.g. the gnubg source code) that it doesn't.

This is a common topic, as every month or so a newbie shows up to claim that "gnu/ snowie/jellyfish cheats with the dice".  Try Googling the topic before furthering this nonsense.
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« Reply #28 on: May 27, 2010, 05:52:51 PM »


Hi,

It is quite normal to suspect the bots since they win so many games. If you have saved your matches, why not convert them to jf.mat format and evauate them for errors using gnubg.  You may be surprised at how many obvious moves you have missed. Gnubg also has a pretty good luck factor analysis so you can see if you really were unlucky but played good, or if you played bad and were just lucky. It is a good way to improve your game. It is used by almost all high level players and it is an accepted software in the backgammon community.

maareyes (tucsonAZ on fib

Do the same u might be surprised what a jackass u r.  I have witnessed bots play and they win for one reason and one reason only, THEY GET ROLLS.  PLEASE ENOUGH with the bots r so good BULLSHIT.  FIBS dice r so obviously biased it is sad and if u can't see this u r more of a moron than I already suspect. 
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« Reply #29 on: May 27, 2010, 06:20:57 PM »

...every month or so a newbie shows up to claim that "gnu/ snowie/jellyfish cheats with the dice". 

As I was saying...
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« Reply #30 on: May 27, 2010, 07:04:15 PM »

While there may be some obscure bugs in the 3DFibs interface when using it for human vs computer play, your dice whining is off base.

It doesn't cheat with the dice.  That's a common perception but there's zero evidence that it does, and quite a lot of evidence (e.g. the gnubg source code) that it doesn't.

This is a common topic, as every month or so a newbie shows up to claim that "gnu/ snowie/jellyfish cheats with the dice".  Try Googling the topic before furthering this nonsense.

Cheat is a strong work but u r full of yourself.   There is NO , let me reapeat that, NO evidence that bots do not get favorable dice.  U can see they "anticipate" (expect certain rolls) rolls now maybe this is "good" software and it might not be classified as cheating but it is close.  If u do not complain about fibs dice u r an idiot.  These r so obviously biased it is sad.  A simple way to settle this is to keep stats.  Surprise, surprise, no one seems to get this done. Guess what, get the facts and u might realize the nosense is accepting that fibs dice r legit without proof.
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« Reply #31 on: May 27, 2010, 08:33:43 PM »

A simple way to settle this is to keep stats.  Surprise, surprise, no one seems to get this done.

Oh goody - you have obviously done this - I can't wait for you to show us and explain how the bias works  laugh laugh
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« Reply #32 on: May 28, 2010, 05:17:59 PM »

The truth is, it is extremely difficult to make statistics on backgammon. The reason is because there are at least 5 different parameters each of which has to be examined separately. Åven if you do statistics on all of them you have to manually decide which was the one that decided the game. Was it the too many doubles, was it the sequences of best rolls for one worst for the other, was it the out of bar luck, was it the never missing a hit? Needless to say that there are cases all your statistics won’t worth a sh**  simply because the game was a backgame, or a closed tactical game.

I have personally programmed a macro on Excel that calculates the out of bar luck as a percentage of available possibilities and although it is mathematically 100% correct it cannot be used to evaluate more than say 40%-50% of the games. Results are really amazing, it can even prove you that you lost a game while you were actually very lucky!

If you would like to have one of your games evaluated according to this parameter attach it zipped here in 3Dfibs or mat format and I will let you know the results.



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