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Poll
Question: Cube Action (orange):
Double, pass - 2 (25%)
Double, take - 1 (12.5%)
No double - 4 (50%)
kibbitz purrrrfect! - 1 (12.5%)
Total Voters: 8

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Author Topic: Bloody Mary "Sunday Special" finals position  (Read 861 times)
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don
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« on: April 20, 2008, 07:49:42 PM »


In case the .png file doesn't show up here,
    GNU Backgammon  Position ID: c9sEAyA2O4wHAA
                    Match ID   : UQmgACAACAAA
    +24-23-22-21-20-19------18-17-16-15-14-13-+  O: adrian
    | O     O  O  O  O |   |    O           X |  2 points
    | O     O  O  O  O |   |                X | 
    |       O          |   |                X | 
    |                  |   |                X | 
    |                  |   |                  | 
    |                  |BAR|                  |v 5 point match
    |                  |   |                  | 
    |                  |   |                  | 
    |                X |   |                  | 
    |    X  X     X  X |   |          X     O |  On roll
    | O  X  X     X  X |   |          X     O |  1 point
    +-1--2--3--4--5--6-------7--8--9-10-11-12-+  X: WildThing (Cube: 2)

This occurred during today's tourney finals, and here's the whispers:
Quote
scrat whispers: take
PersianLord whispers: sure
PersianLord whispers: time for redouble
scrat whispers: exactly
Sixta_II whispers: redouble?
spielberg whispers: tricky - she only gets half the added value
> You whisper: yea
spielberg whispers: oops - stupid me - she gets perfect value - yes redouble
PersianLord whispers: what do u mean, steve?
> You whisper: I'd say no redouble till gammon is out of question
PersianLord whispers: gammon is out
> You whisper: no it isn't, it's like 5-10 percent
> You whisper: and no redouble now!
PersianLord whispers: sure
> You whisper: that's the other reason for no redouble, jokers
PersianLord whispers: not redoubling was a bad mistake
> You whisper: i disagree
> You whisper: mebbe I'll ask gnu later
PersianLord whispers: we can wager a bet, don
Sixta_II whispers: no mistake


Here's gnu's opinion:
« Last Edit: April 20, 2008, 07:56:09 PM by don » Logged

So many string dimensions, so little space time...
FIBS Board backgammon forum
« on: April 20, 2008, 07:49:42 PM »



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PersianLord
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« Reply #1 on: April 20, 2008, 09:28:26 PM »

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What is good? All that heightens the feeling of power, the will to power, power itself in man.

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don
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« Reply #2 on: April 20, 2008, 10:50:27 PM »

Yeah, but notice there is still a gammon chance, so we'd come out even on the bet!
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So many string dimensions, so little space time...
blitzxz
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« Reply #3 on: April 21, 2008, 05:32:33 PM »

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PersianLord
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« Reply #4 on: April 24, 2008, 07:31:40 PM »

Let's review this position once more, this time with more attention on theory.

Pip-counts : orange 110 - 99 white
Score :        orange  1-2       white
Match:         5-pointer

Consulting Kit's eauity table, the MWCs are as follows: (4 away- 3 away)

orange's MWC: 41%
white's   MWC: 59%

Now :

1- If orange doubles and wins, his MWC will be 100%
2- If orange doesn't double and wins, his MWC will be 59%
3- If orange doubles and loses, his MWC will be 0%
4- If orange doesn't double and loses, his MWC will be 17%

Risk = 17%

Gain = 41%

Take point = 17/(17+41) = 29%

Orange's GWC is 61% > 29%

So far it's a clear double for orange.

Now for white:

1- If he takes and wins, his MWC will be 100%
2- If he  passes, his MWC will be 41%
3- If he takes and loses, his MWC will be 0%


Risk = 41%

Gain = 59%

Take point = 41/(41+59) = 41%

White's GWC is 39% < 41%

So it's a clear double/pass as the gain/loss equity is heavily favores orange. So our friend who has voted fot double/take is very wrong. But those who have voted for "no double" might have probably thought like don : it's too good to double as orange may win a gammon.

But as you see, gammon win chances for orange is just 5.5%. In the rest of possibilties, orange will win 55% of the times, but will lose 39% of the times that would be very costly. So again, the gain/loss is heavily favored for doubling now. In GNUBG's words, not doubling is a "bad mistake" : a whopping equity loss of 0.149
« Last Edit: April 24, 2008, 09:10:50 PM by PersianLord » Logged

What is good? All that heightens the feeling of power, the will to power, power itself in man.

Friedrich Nietzsche
blitzxz
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« Reply #5 on: April 25, 2008, 01:25:55 PM »

White's GWC is 39% < 41%

So it's a clear double/pass as the gain/loss equity is heavily favores orange.

2 procent difference in winning chances is very small to me. Even gnu makes that kind of errors time to time. If you can evaluate game winning chances that well you must be expert player. And actually white will have 40 % if he will pass (3-away 2-away not 4-away 3-away) and quick rollout gives only 37 % game winning chances (that is just that 2 procent error but to the other way this time).
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PersianLord
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« Reply #6 on: April 25, 2008, 02:02:03 PM »

2 procent difference in winning chances is very small to me. Even gnu makes that kind of errors time to time. If you can evaluate game winning chances that well you must be expert player. And actually white will have 40 % if he will pass (3-away 2-away not 4-away 3-away) and quick rollout gives only 37 % game winning chances (that is just that 2 procent error but to the other way this time).

I think we don't need to calculate the GWC exactly to decide whether it's a take or not, we just need to take a look at risk/gain to conclude. Here orange risks 17% of MWC to gain 41%, whille white risks 41% to gain 59%. The conclsuion is quite clear I think.
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What is good? All that heightens the feeling of power, the will to power, power itself in man.

Friedrich Nietzsche
spielberg
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« Reply #7 on: April 25, 2008, 03:27:10 PM »


So it's a clear double/pass as the gain/loss equity is heavily favores orange. So our friend who has voted fot double/take is very wrong.

It was me who voted for double/take - wrong I admit. I don't think that's "very wrong" tho' - at a cost of 2% MWC it's considerably less wrong than no double which costs 15%.
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PersianLord
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« Reply #8 on: April 25, 2008, 05:25:34 PM »

It was me who voted for double/take - wrong I admit. I don't think that's "very wrong" tho' - at a cost of 2% MWC it's considerably less wrong than no double which costs 15%.

you're right thumbsup
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What is good? All that heightens the feeling of power, the will to power, power itself in man.

Friedrich Nietzsche
blitzxz
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« Reply #9 on: April 26, 2008, 09:39:33 AM »

I think we don't need to calculate the GWC exactly to decide whether it's a take or not, we just need to take a look at risk/gain to conclude. Here orange risks 17% of MWC to gain 41%, whille white risks 41% to gain 59%. The conclsuion is quite clear I think.

There seems to be some confusion. This not the correct way. Take point calculation is only for take point. Let's not mix double decision and take decision. So here white can choose play for the match in this game or pass and continue in 3-away 2-away down. According to woolsey table in that score white would have 40 % chances. So if white has bigger chances to win this game (and the match) he should take. And white should know the exact game winning chances to make the desicion. It turns that white has couple procents less so take is blunder. But evaluating chances with that accuracy is still hard to do.

Now doubling decision is another thing. There is no easy way to calculate that. What doubler wants do is to be as close as possible to opponents take point so he can practically win the game with the cube and get maximum effectivity for double. Here orange has already missed the point so question is should he cash or go for gammon. The risk for orange is huge. He could be in sure 3-2 lead or the game could easily turnaround complitely with only one roll and he would end up in 1-4 crawford. The risk is just too much for just 5 % gammons.




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