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FIBS Board backgammon forum
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Position # 35
Poll
Question:
Red to play 5-4
14/5
4 (36.4%)
7/2-6/2
0 (0%)
14/9*/5
7 (63.6%)
7/3-6/1
0 (0%)
7/3-7/2
0 (0%)
Total Voters: 11
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Topic: Position # 35 (Read 763 times)
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PersianLord
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Position # 35
«
on:
May 21, 2008, 07:21:54 PM »
Position information:
Pip-count: Red 104-129 White
Score: Red 0-0 White
Match: 5-pointer
Red to play 5-4
First make your choice and then read on.
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What is good? All that heightens the feeling of power, the will to power, power itself in man.
Friedrich Nietzsche
FIBS Board backgammon forum
Position # 35
«
on:
May 21, 2008, 07:21:54 PM »
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playBunny
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Re: Position # 35
«
Reply #1 on:
May 22, 2008, 08:21:48 PM »
And the rollout ...
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PersianLord
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Re: Position # 35
«
Reply #2 on:
May 22, 2008, 10:41:33 PM »
Quote from: playBunny on May 22, 2008, 08:21:48 PM
And the rollout ...
Thanks for the rollouts.
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What is good? All that heightens the feeling of power, the will to power, power itself in man.
Friedrich Nietzsche
mradica
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Re: Position # 35
«
Reply #3 on:
May 23, 2008, 10:27:10 AM »
Quote from: playBunny on May 22, 2008, 08:21:48 PM
And the rollout ...
Which settings you use for cube in this stepped rollout? 2-ply all time or you switch to 0-ply after 12plies as for checker? Anyway, I think 2ply for the cube should be through all rollout.
And for the move, off course red don't like white checker back to make his life difficult. Maybe hit would be right if white's board be less stronger.
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dorbel
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Re: Position # 35
«
Reply #4 on:
May 23, 2008, 11:05:18 AM »
The real question is, "Why hasn't Red doubled?" This is a clear pass now and if Red hits, will always be a pass next turn. Even if not hitting looks minutely better when the game is played to a finish, hitting is correct. Why? Because if Red eschews the hit, White can take next turn after a 6-6. This is called Joker Control!
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mradica
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Re: Position # 35
«
Reply #5 on:
May 23, 2008, 11:08:21 AM »
Quote from: dorbel on May 23, 2008, 11:05:18 AM
The real question is, "Why hasn't Red doubled?" This is a clear pass now and if Red hits, will always be a pass next turn. Even if not hitting looks minutely better when the game is played to a finish, hitting is correct. Why? Because if Red eschews the hit, White can take next turn after a 6-6. This is called Joker Control!
I am sorry but Red already sent the cube which is now in white's possession.
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dorbel
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Re: Position # 35
«
Reply #6 on:
May 23, 2008, 11:18:45 AM »
Quite right! I need new glasses! However I would still hit. Why? Because if you don't, White's play is trivially easy; build a board, wait for a shot or run if the race gets close. Hitting him makes for a much more complex game.
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mradica
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Re: Position # 35
«
Reply #7 on:
May 23, 2008, 11:28:11 AM »
Quote from: dorbel on May 23, 2008, 11:18:45 AM
Quite right! I need new glasses! However I would still hit. Why? Because if you don't, White's play is trivially easy; build a board, wait for a shot or run if the race gets close. Hitting him makes for a much more complex game.
Hit will give you more interesting game for sure but ahead in race and with gammons not likely much when White has advanced anchor Red job is to break contact not to increase it, especially with white's decent board and prime.
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PersianLord
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Re: Position # 35
«
Reply #8 on:
May 23, 2008, 03:26:39 PM »
Quote from: dorbel on May 23, 2008, 11:18:45 AM
Quite right! I need new glasses! However I would still hit. Why? Because if you don't, White's play is trivially easy; build a board, wait for a shot or run if the race gets close. Hitting him makes for a much more complex game.
I can't match your BG skills even in my dreams, but I think that hitting makes the game much more complex for both sides, not just for white. As said in my blog, red has a relatively inflexible position, with 6 men stacked on the 6-pt and he might well leave a shot later. Thus by not hitting, he can simply get his men jump over white's anchor into safety without the fear of leaving a shot.
And will white really gain an edge in race after a 6-6?
Regards
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What is good? All that heightens the feeling of power, the will to power, power itself in man.
Friedrich Nietzsche
playBunny
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Re: Position # 35
«
Reply #9 on:
May 24, 2008, 12:21:12 AM »
Quote from: mradica on May 23, 2008, 10:27:10 AM
Which settings you use for cube in this stepped rollout? 2-ply all time or you switch to 0-ply after 12plies as for checker? Anyway, I think 2ply for the cube should be through all rollout.
I'd never considered that. The cube play is set to match the checker play so I imagine it would revert to 0-ply as well after the 12th play. I'll change those settings to maintain the cube at 2-ply. Thanks for that.
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dorbel
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Re: Position # 35
«
Reply #10 on:
May 24, 2008, 06:09:23 PM »
Hitting maintains contact of course, but Red's play isn't very difficult from here if he hits is it? Besides, you have to look for more contact and more gammons if you want a chance to outplay your opponent.
6-6 doesn't turn it round for White, but you surely would rather he rolls it from the bar! A play that makes 3 of his best rolls (6-6, 5-5, 6-5) into his three worst rolls is usually pretty good.
For what it's worth, Snowie 3-ply chooses to hit, although I agree that a rollout marginally prefers not hitting. A very considerable factor in this decision is, how well will White use the 4 cube? A lot of players wait too long with a recube, particularly at this score, where Red has to pass 4 cubes that would be trivial money takes.
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PersianLord
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Re: Position # 35
«
Reply #11 on:
May 24, 2008, 07:44:13 PM »
Quote from: dorbel on May 24, 2008, 06:09:23 PM
Hitting maintains contact of course, but Red's play isn't very difficult from here if he hits is it? Besides, you have to look for more contact and more gammons if you want a chance to outplay your opponent.
6-6 doesn't turn it round for White, but you surely would rather he rolls it from the bar! A play that makes 3 of his best rolls (6-6, 5-5, 6-5) into his three worst rolls is usually pretty good.
For what it's worth, Snowie 3-ply chooses to hit, although I agree that a rollout marginally prefers not hitting. A very considerable factor in this decision is, how well will White use the 4 cube? A lot of players wait too long with a recube, particularly at this score, where Red has to pass 4 cubes that would be trivial money takes.
Thanks for the analysis. I will add it to my blog.
By the way, if red doesn't hit and white rolls a 6-6 immdiately after that, should he run with 1 or 2 of his back men or should he keep staying?
Regards
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What is good? All that heightens the feeling of power, the will to power, power itself in man.
Friedrich Nietzsche
dorbel
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Re: Position # 35
«
Reply #12 on:
May 24, 2008, 11:19:18 PM »
It's absolutely clear to run with both.
Staying achieves nothing really. White won't get a shot for ages with all those spares that Red has, so he must go and take a chance in the race, even though he trails by 10 pips after the roll. As almost all his wins will come when he rolls well and catches up, it is essential to free all his checkers for the race. You don't want good rolls like 4-4 and 3-3 to be blocked and you certainly don't want to be forced to run with one later, leaving a target behind.
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