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rollouts during fibsboard matches

Author Topic: rollouts during fibsboard matches  (Read 13713 times)

Offline Schigolch

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rollouts during fibsboard matches
« on: December 09, 2009, 09:53:34 PM »
Hi
I'd like to ask the forum not to show the rollouts after every move from now on. The problem is, it results into a strange kind of tavla, or in fact a virtually cubeless game, because it shows you when you're ready to cube, while much of the fun in bg is not moving the checkers around the board, but the proper cube play.
I for my part don't do any rollouts here during the game, and don't look at those posted.
In my opinion the rollouts should be shown only after the game.
Schigolch
« Last Edit: December 10, 2009, 09:38:26 PM by stog »

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rollouts during fibsboard matches
« on: December 09, 2009, 09:53:34 PM »

Offline diane

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rollouts during fibsboard matches
« Reply #1 on: December 10, 2009, 01:45:29 AM »
We have definitely discussed this before, and i still feel that there is value in real time rollouts.  It is better to see the analysis when the play, and your reasons for choosing your move, are still fresh in your mind.  Analysis of a move which took place 3 weeks ago [worst case ;)]  isn't as meaningful in my opinion.

I dont think it results in 'cubeless games' - and we covered whether we should avoid cube rollouts - because if we should have cubed last roll, well - that will kind of influence the next decision....please go and read the thread for the full detail [I will add a link if I can find it quickly in my lunchbreak.]

My summary of the overall feeling was that this is not intended to be a winning/losing experience - but a learning experience, and real time rollouts are much more conducive to that.
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rollouts during fibsboard matches
« Reply #1 on: December 10, 2009, 01:45:29 AM »

Offline stog

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rollouts during fibsboard matches
« Reply #2 on: December 10, 2009, 01:55:55 AM »
now i agree with both of you!!

trust u r settling in well diane btw

ive put up a pole
sry poll .....here

the previous discussion was here http://www.fibsboard.com/index.php/topic,2653.msg19754.html#msg19754
« Last Edit: December 10, 2009, 03:58:50 AM by stog »

Offline ah_clem

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rollouts during fibsboard matches
« Reply #3 on: December 10, 2009, 02:57:36 AM »
I think we have a decision here, so I'm going to move it along.  I'll refrain form publishing a rollout until we've hashed out that process or when it's truly moot.


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rollouts during fibsboard matches
« Reply #3 on: December 10, 2009, 02:57:36 AM »

Offline dorbel

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rollouts during fibsboard matches
« Reply #4 on: December 10, 2009, 08:56:12 AM »
I agree with Schigolch.

Offline diane

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rollouts during fibsboard matches
« Reply #5 on: December 10, 2009, 09:27:01 AM »

trust u r settling in well diane btw

the previous discussion was here http://www.fibsboard.com/index.php/topic,2653.msg19754.html#msg19754

I am getting there - thanks, better internet access certainly cheers me up :)  I am enjoying being able to cycle to work, and everyone talking as I cycle by, that kind of small town thing.  It is so novel, I even enjoyed it in the rain this morning!!   :blink:

I just need to find somewhere to live really, once that is done I will begin to settle for real, but i feel comfortable here.  The job is also getting interesting, now I am actually starting to do stuff - I hate the first days where they have to train you to open doors and stuff!!   :mad:

Anyhoo - back to matches, that link isn't to the discussion I was thinking of, and both searching and trawling through 8 months of my posts, though entertaining I thought  :laugh: :laugh:, did not find it either.  It did draw my attention to how much I miss lews interactions in these threads though - ah_clem tries, but he just cant hold a candle to lew's rudeness to me!!
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Offline diane

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rollouts during fibsboard matches
« Reply #6 on: December 10, 2009, 09:44:34 AM »
ps..I tried searching under 'spoilers' amongst other things, because I know that is where we discussed using spoilers for rollouts, even after the play is moved on - then people can opt to look at the time, or later.

I found a previously posted link to a discussion which looked promising, but the link gave a post not found...is it possible some data is lost?  It could well be as far back as first quarter this year.

This may have been the discussion I was thinking about - which revolved more around discussing moves and changing minds - but I think the points are just as relevant to seeing rollouts at the time of play.

http://www.fibsboard.com/index.php/topic,2527.msg18928.html#msg18928
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Offline stog

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rollouts during fibsboard matches
« Reply #7 on: December 10, 2009, 11:24:42 AM »
no data has been lost.

as i have posted  allover - due to the removal of an outdated mod (which added .html amongst other things to pages) some of the pasted links by us - where we have physically copied a topics link from our browser status bar- may now not work /

the messages are there to be found however and if we can all correct/notify them as we go, then all will be well.
i had to spend 2 full all-nighters and more sorting all this, and i should have preferred not to have to do it, but as this now unsupported modification was starting to produce real problems i thought early intervention was essential...(also it would have had to be removed when we eventually migrate to the new forum software in the new year)


if you conduct an advanced search, say "rollout"....... specifying " Fibsboard Forum Matches" as a specific board to look in, you will be able to find what you desire.. grrrrr just tried it zilch ;), but searching 'rollout' without specifying the board, found plenty , including many in the fibsboard forum match board - computers! ok got it - i had only checked the parent board, fibsboard forum matches; i should have ticked the child boards,1,2 and 3 as well :)


please also tell me, or post where the link that failed was - if u do not have time to correct it yourself.

obviously outdated links to external sites are not under our control.


also glad to hear u are settling in well diane.....


ps. there is one more major modification removal i will have to do before installation of  the new forum software, and i have already completed a test removal successfully on other forums i maintain, but it willl mean that some features may well be lost, as well as some of the ways of doing, look and feel that we are accustomed to here; i am trying to introduce these essential changes carefully and alerting you all as and when they are completed. the main proviso remains the security and well being of the forum data however......

the poll on posting rollovers after games is currently 4-2 against.. please vote! thx
« Last Edit: December 10, 2009, 12:44:21 PM by stog »

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rollouts during fibsboard matches
« Reply #7 on: December 10, 2009, 11:24:42 AM »

Offline diane

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rollouts during fibsboard matches
« Reply #8 on: December 10, 2009, 08:36:47 PM »
I will find the link that doesnt work again, somewhere in 90 pages of posts by me..... :wacko:  honest!!   :laugh: :laugh:
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Offline dorbel

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rollouts during fibsboard matches
« Reply #9 on: December 10, 2009, 08:49:26 PM »
To amplify my agreement to Schigolch's post, viz that rollouts shouldn't appear until the game is over, I think that we all learn more from the discussion than we do from looking at a list of figures that tell us the "right" answer. I would rather hear any three fibsters talking about how they arrived at their choice than have God tell me what I should do without explanation. Anyway, anybody who wants to see a rollout can get their finger out and do one for themselves!

Offline stog

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rollouts during fibsboard matches
« Reply #10 on: December 10, 2009, 09:25:20 PM »
good post :)

is there a case though, after the discussion and the vote is closed, for an occasional bot influenced post, about the various rolls without a complete gnu paste-up; ie/ in this recent clem post http://www.fibsboard.com/index.php/topic,2820.msg20810.html#msg20810

- there is no reference to our equity in the game, or any hint for future cube play, only a comparison with the bot's take on the choices.

further, the facilitator of the matches has to use gnu - for recording, and providing screenshots, and propagating dice and for checking available moves with numbering, they are therefore very much "in touch with the bot's view on cube-state" and so, even subconsciously (as most of us facilitators try and still vote, without being influenced by the bot as best we can) it can perhaps  permeate our presentation, although i for one, deliberately try and mix up the order of roll options for the vote - when i have resorted to using gnu - for moves with many possible permutations.

and most importantly -- once the moment has gone -- it is very unlikely for any of us to be bothered to retrieve the bot view at a later date - say after the game has finished. Though, as you say dorbel, we could go to gnu at home - but as the match is actually being recorded by gnu - it is far simpler for the facilitator to provide the roll out, when they are preparing the next roll/vote or play.

i remember zorba providing some useful comments illuminated with bot readouts/ in the last match for example, sometimes a little while after the next roll was well underway..

sometimes this really worked i think, but if left too long --as diane says-- it is out of time and mind; the moment is lost, so to speak..

i agree the jewel of these forum matches is everyone's take on the plays ---- well interesting

but i propose that, as long as there is no indication of cube info, - then we continue  as we have been, unless of course the poll vote and further discussion dictates otherwise

i am interested to learn if the rollout post sited here again http://www.fibsboard.com/index.php/topic,2820.msg20810.html#msg20810
in any way affects cube decisions.......

if you feel strongly about this, please comment and use the poll referenced further up this topic

and thx everyone for making these matches so worthwhile and it has been good to see them evolve with different takes from different facilitators and Guest players alike........i will leave it with the individual facilitators of each match as to how they run it - it makes the matches even more unique
« Last Edit: December 10, 2009, 09:33:02 PM by stog »

Offline dorbel

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rollouts during fibsboard matches
« Reply #11 on: December 10, 2009, 09:36:14 PM »
That's fine, I don't feel very strongly about it. However, a rollout of any play is always going to give us very useful information that will inform the next cube decision isn't it!

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rollouts during fibsboard matches
« Reply #11 on: December 10, 2009, 09:36:14 PM »

Offline ah_clem

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rollouts during fibsboard matches
« Reply #12 on: December 10, 2009, 09:37:08 PM »
  It did draw my attention to how much I miss lews interactions in these threads though - ah_clem tries, but he just cant hold a candle to lew's rudeness to me!!

Careful what you wish for, diane.  (c:


Offline stog

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Re: rollouts during fibsboard matches
« Reply #13 on: December 10, 2009, 09:51:32 PM »
i am not proficient enough with equity evaluation, so i tend to just 'see' the bots hierarchical positioning of the moves in the roll outs, and i like to view the board in terms of position and balance, when i am evaluating cube decisions..

though of course here on Fibsboard, and on Fibs, we have the advantage of a pip count.

the slower pace of these fibsboard matches however allow for some 'real live' counting and adjustment analysis - i remember you showed me some good routines to aid pip counting in the Cotswolds Fireside Tourney a few years ago back now dorbel --  :) thx again for your time btw.

i remember playing slattery in that and watching you play him - i was falling over when he used the same 'line' about cubing to you; something on the lines of "well we've both been cubing and passing like goodun's" this of course being said at 5-5, in a 7 pointer...

does he want me to cube? or is this a double think? :)


"what really is my position" is my thinking/response these days - but his comment was expertly/timed and placed in both our matches...
« Last Edit: December 10, 2009, 10:00:48 PM by stog »

Offline stog

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more on missing links......
« Reply #14 on: December 10, 2009, 11:28:35 PM »
I found a previously posted link to a discussion which looked promising, but the link gave a post not found..

more on missing links......
MISSING LINKS FOUND! FIXED 11/12.09
you can try inserting in the browser address field
Code: [Select]
index,php to the failed link as in
Code: [Select]
http://www.fibsboard.com/index.php/board,72.0.html and see if the link then works[/s]

ps how do you get the "quote" to include the person and time? i've just had to copy/paste from diane's post which can't be the way to do it :)
« Last Edit: December 11, 2009, 12:15:54 PM by stog »

Offline stog

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Ignore the above! OK LINKS FIXED !!!!!!!
« Reply #15 on: December 11, 2009, 02:39:57 AM »

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Ignore the above! OK LINKS FIXED !!!!!!!
« Reply #15 on: December 11, 2009, 02:39:57 AM »

Offline roadkillbooks

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Re: rollouts during fibsboard matches
« Reply #16 on: December 11, 2009, 04:10:07 PM »
I dont think its fair to see rollouts in the middle of the game.  This influences both cube decisions and possibly future moves.  Lets say a hit is eschewed.. then the rollout shows it was a -.05 error, on the next move a similar situation arises.. no we know our past move was a mistake and we attack.  This kinda thing happens all  the time in real games... someone doesnt hit loose for fear... we then take advantage of this by not clearing the blot because our opponent sees it as a threat.. with rollouts we'd have to clean up the blot anyway.  I say rollouts end of game. I mean there could be rollouts we the game has changed significantly but i understand that that criteria is subjective and not as easy as a flat rule.  Maybe "3 or 4" moves later would be a compromise.

Offline blitzxz

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Re: rollouts during fibsboard matches
« Reply #17 on: December 14, 2009, 08:00:32 PM »
Having or not having rollouts shouldn't affect forum decisions at all, if people are not cheating themselves. This is because people who don't want rollouts shouldn't read the rollouts under the spoiler tag. (There is clear text "rollout" before it.) And people who want rollouts (like myself) will do it anyway if the moderator doesn't. To me forum matches are mainly learning experience and not a fair battle. I will learn more, if I get rollouts right away and not after weeks when I have already forgot what I even voted. I think also that it is unfair to change votes or even discuss moves. It is unfair to play against dozen players team to begin with. So I don't think adding after vote rollouts will make the match hugely more unbalanced. But still I feel that the forum opponent shouldn't do the same as it would be more of challenge not look at any analyzes. So all in all I see the forum match as learning experience for the voters and as a challenge to the expert player. What ever "rules" about the rollouts is decided, there is no way to be sure that somebody isn't cheating, so I don't think this is such big deal in the end.
« Last Edit: December 14, 2009, 08:44:18 PM by blitzxz »

Offline ah_clem

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Re: rollouts during fibsboard matches
« Reply #18 on: December 14, 2009, 09:20:41 PM »
To amplify my agreement to Schigolch's post, viz that rollouts shouldn't appear until the game is over, I think that we all learn more from the discussion than we do from looking at a list of figures that tell us the "right" answer. I would rather hear any three fibsters talking about how they arrived at their choice than have God tell me what I should do without explanation.

I agree completely that we learn more from the discussion than the rollout.  The bot can tell you which move is favored, but it can't tell you why it's favored.  For that you need humans.  I almost always give a reason for my choice of move, unless the decision is really obvious.  That's not required to participate, but it's helpful to the other players.  And for me, verbalizing the decision process is worth it in and of itself.

That said, it's nice to check the human analysis against the bot, and more helpful if it can be checked in a reasonable amount of time lest we forget what we were thinking. 

Offline ah_clem

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Re: rollouts during fibsboard matches
« Reply #19 on: December 14, 2009, 10:02:32 PM »

... in this recent clem post http://www.fibsboard.com/index.php/topic,2820.msg20810.html#msg20810

- there is no reference to our equity in the game, or any hint for future cube play, only a comparison with the bot's take on the choices.


Actually, there is some equity information there.  It says

 0.500 0.115 0.007 - 0.500 0.125 0.002

which tells me that we win 50% of the games, win a gammon 11.5% of the time and lose a gammon 12.5% of the time.  That's enough information to influence a cube decision - of course in this case it's not a close cube at all and that is obvious without looking at the rollout.  But there are other situations where the rollout does give away the cube decision should you choose to use it.




further, the facilitator of the matches has to use gnu - for recording, and providing screenshots, and propagating dice and for checking available moves with numbering, they are therefore very much "in touch with the bot's view on cube-state" and so, even subconsciously

It's possible to use gnubg to run the matches without ever seeing any evaluations, analysis or rollouts.  That's how I'm running it now - I haven't seen any bot results since we started this little side discussion.

 This means that I may miss a good move when I'm preparing the vote - that's ok, the better players will just ask me to add it later.  It also means that I may miss a cube vote, or pause for an unnecessary one.


sometimes this really worked i think, but if left too long --as diane says-- it is out of time and mind; the moment is lost, so to speak..

i agree the jewel of these forum matches is everyone's take on the plays ---- well interesting


Yes.  Exactly.  It's the discussion that makes it so worthwhile.

but i propose that, as long as there is no indication of cube info, - then we continue  as we have been, unless of course the poll vote and further discussion dictates otherwise


Well, what we have been doing recently - actually what I have been doing recently -  is posting a rollout as soon as the decision is in without regard for whether it gives anything away regarding future play.  This will stop (Well, I'll stop doing it this way; I can't control what other people post.)  

What I would like to do is
1) wait to perform the rollout until it's likely that it won't contain relevant information for future decisions
2) Once I've performed the rollout, if it does contain information pertinent to the current position, withhold the relevant parts (e.g. present relative equities instead of the full rollout)
3) Recuse myself when I've seen  bot results that would affect my decision.


The objectives are a) post the bot results while the position is still fresh in our minds, but b) don't post bot results that influence future play.  This may mean immediate rollouts in certain situations and waiting several moves in others.

Is this a reasonable compromise?




Offline stog

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Re: rollouts during fibsboard matches
« Reply #20 on: December 14, 2009, 11:21:54 PM »
twouldseemso :)

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