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Offline EddieVedd

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« Reply #20 on: June 11, 2004, 02:08:02 AM »
Understood Toma' , hence "number of players scoring / by / country " but I'm pretty confident the total subscriptions will show a similar distribution  :(   Either way the statistical imbalance doesnt change.  

Thanks Burper, interesting option if i've got it right but an OPTION all the same :))  This would add alot of weight to how many goes people had at the sessions ! Good or bad / I'm not sure. But clearly i agree with separating into 2 "events" , "at bats". :agree:

The big goal to any change in format or scoring at the moment would be to maintain scores for those sessions that have taken place already ! As you suggested  :yes:  So anyone who's earned their points so far isn't disadvantaged.

How about this ?

We maintain current format for National selection.  We let everyone know that the top 1 or 3 players score by country each month (ala Friday 3's) earn selection into their Olympic team  :)  

Every 1 or 3 months each Olympic Team competes in the Bagolympics which are held, probably via Team Tourney on FIBSLeague ( ?? tryout  ;) ) or any other format which has equal entries per Country  :yes:   and the selection process for the National Teams begins again ! From scratch !

This would also provide time in the short term to decide on exact format for Internation Competition (ie 1 - 3 months) while current format continues as is , we've just moved the goals a little. In addition the current format would provide the regular tournament play Sundays and Tuesdays, that is clearly enjoyed by many, but with a fantastic prize at the end !!  :D

I'll message Tryout and ask him to read this. Meanwhile any thoughts appreciated  :P

"Burper" Posted on Jun 10 2004, 04:05 PM
Quote
We have all the data, so changing the scoring should be okay to do, but it should be done soon!

I Agree   :agree:

 :bye:  
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« Reply #20 on: June 11, 2004, 02:08:02 AM »

BrizzyLions

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« Reply #21 on: June 11, 2004, 04:50:31 AM »
I have not followed this thread until EddieV emailed me.

I don't play in the tourneys other than the spur of the moment ones just because I don't really know anything about them.

If there is some way I can help EddieVedd so that he gets his tourney time when he wants it, I will gladly do so.  I live in Australia.

Please let me know.

BrizzyLions -  (going to look to see if there is a way I can get all messages emailed to me cuz I don't come to this board apparently often enough)

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« Reply #21 on: June 11, 2004, 04:50:31 AM »

Offline Tomawaky

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« Reply #22 on: June 11, 2004, 06:10:47 AM »
Burper > please can you explain this "at-bat" alitle more for me. I do not understand what it is. But as soon as you let me know I will add it.

BrizzyLions, EddieVedd > Choose a time for a new sessions of bagolympics and it will planned
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Offline EddieVedd

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« Reply #23 on: June 11, 2004, 06:29:00 AM »
Thanks Brizzy  :)

There is something,  :P


"Me"  Jun 9 2004, 02:30 AM
Quote
So, ........ given it is designed as a global event can i suggest staggering the session times around the clock , say 00:00 , 06:00 , 12:00 & 18:00 (GMT or whichever universal time clock is settled on) to canvas all time zones and give ALL coutries a chance to compete in at least some of the sessions. As i mentioned in an earlier post, regular placement in the wee-small hours for some countries is difficult to attend regularly if at all.

A simpler option ??........every Sunday is say 8 Am .. and every Tuesday is 8 Pm .

reply quote from Tomawaky Posted: Jun 9 2004, 07:05 AM

Quote
No problem for me give me TD.



Without commiting, just to provide an option at this stage, can you run a tourneybot tourney at any of these times on a regular basis ? No pressure !!  
No is an OK answer if you can't,  but is good if you can. :thumbsup2:

I Personal Messaged (CC'd) all TD's when i sent a PM to Tryout as mentioned in last post. It then sends you an e-mail Brizzy.

Thanks for answering  :bye:  
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« Reply #23 on: June 11, 2004, 06:29:00 AM »

Offline Tomawaky

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« Reply #24 on: June 11, 2004, 07:22:57 AM »
I have added a Average statistic for country ranking at FibsLeaGammon.
But this one must be interpreted with care in case a country do not participe a lot !
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Offline EddieVedd

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« Reply #25 on: June 11, 2004, 11:10:51 AM »
Yes Toma' with great care !

WOW  :o  How do you do that so fast  :D  I'm Impressed at the options availiable ! and all you guys who make it happen  :)

Burper could you expand on what you had in mind with averages ? How best you see to use it if at all ?

I said,
Quote
This would add alot of weight to how many goes people had at the sessions ! Good or bad / I'm not sure. But clearly i agree with separating into 2 "events" , "at bats".


What do people think ? My biggest point lies with the bit "separating the two events"

I lean towards keep it simple but always happy to push envelopes :)
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Offline tryout

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« Reply #26 on: June 11, 2004, 08:27:54 PM »
Quote
I'll message Tryout and ask him to read this. Meanwhile any thoughts appreciated  :P
Phew, only a few days that I wasn't reading the board and now I have problems to catch up.  :o

Unfortunately, I don't find much time for reading here often enough, let alone writing. :(  So here are just a few initial thoughts and comments. Maybe I'll have more time another day.

To start off, I agree with the imparity regarding countries with a far bigger count of participants. Just by mass participation such a country will easily win (assumed that they are not all dumb like bread B) ).

Taking the average is technically very easy, but neither gives a fair rating value. With this I would only want to have the 1 or 2 best players to participate for my country and try to chase everybody else away, since they would certainly lower the average.

Burper's "at-bat" idea alleviates the probems a little. But the bigger the player count of a country the higher get also the chances both to be "at-bat" in a final and also to win the tourney for this country. This count may have value in a league, where every player/team will get an equal opportunity to participate. But as long as the number of players from one team/country isn't restricted, this country will have a higher count.

The only meaningful and fair result for a country competition is to have a limited number of entrants for every country. Big countries may still have the advantage of chosing from a bigger pool, but I don't see anything that can avoid this (apart from breaking those countries into smaller pieces, which doesn't really make sense).

How many players should be allowed for each country isn't really important. However, we should aim for a reasonable trade-off between that preferably many people can participate and that the obstacle for smaller countries to reach this number of participants is low.

The next point is how the candidates are selected. Actually, I don't mind. This could be done in any way, even by lottery. Just any individual competition like tournaments or leagues, but also voting or just naming some will do.

Regarding the quest for a TD to hold another regular tourney at suitable times for Aussies... sorry, but I'm also in the position of playing from work (well, university). So I'm unable to agree on something with fixed times.  And the other problem of sometimes just having to leave the tourney or FIBS without notice also exists. :(
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Offline burper

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« Reply #27 on: June 11, 2004, 09:08:26 PM »
Thanks tryout, well stated.

In another thread, started by Biggles I think, we were trying to design a country tournament. I tried to address the problems you articulate so well by having qualifying rounds for the main event, which would be limited. Again, the qualifying rounds for a populous country draw from a larger pool, and may not even exist for a small country (small in the bg playing population that is). This would have required more TD's to work together, each running a country's qualifying round, but I didn't get any volunteers.

The 'at-bat' idea was another attempt at a second/qualifying level, but in this case, can use the existing bagolympic tournament format, which is good since it's already started ;) The scoring would be different only. I like the idea of having multiple columns of stats, each with a different interpretation, and no clear winner and plenty to argue about ;) :argue:

Eddie, I can't say it any better than I did, and I haven't really thought about it anymore. I spend all my time typing, so thinking get's little of my attention. :wacko:

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« Reply #27 on: June 11, 2004, 09:08:26 PM »

Offline Tomawaky

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« Reply #28 on: June 11, 2004, 09:51:13 PM »
I thinks that bagolympic could be that qualifying rounds.
Imagine we take the better players for each country in a period of bagolympic result.
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Offline Tomawaky

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« Reply #29 on: June 11, 2004, 10:56:28 PM »
Quote
How about 2 "batting averages" per country: normal match and final match?
Some kind of "at-bat" Here
« Last Edit: June 12, 2004, 08:48:42 AM by Tomawaky »
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Offline EddieVedd

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« Reply #30 on: June 12, 2004, 08:56:17 AM »
Thanks for your thoughts Tryout :)

I am very grateful for your experienced input.  Rest assured no "problems to catch up" here  ;)  Hopefully just some improvements   :P
It seems we agree on a critical point....

Tryout Posted on Jun 11 2004, 08:27 PM
Quote
The only meaningful and fair result for a country competition is to have a limited number of entrants for every country.


A large reason i messaged you to ask for you input was,

"from me"  Posted: Jun 11 2004, 02:08 AM
Quote
Every 1 or 3 months each Olympic Team competes in the Bagolympics which are held,probably via Team Tourney on FIBSLeague ( ?? tryout  ) or any other format which has equal entries per Country  and the selection process for the National Teams begins again ! From scratch !


I am suggestting a limited and equal number of entrants in a 2nd stage of the Bagolympics, after players qualify during the current format (stage 1), and wondered if you could incorporate a TEAM LEAGUE for the "Olympiad" on your TEAM site ?

Each rotation you would have countries playing each other with an ultimate crowning of World Champion TEAM.

If you are able to do this can you please let me know ? So we know if it's at least an option ?

Thanks heaps Tryout  :)



Tomawaky :)


Tomawaky Posted on Jun 11 2004, 09:51 PM
Quote
thinks that bagolympic could be that qualifying rounds.


Thanks :)

Lets not  use the averages at this stage for the scoring , though they have potential somewhere I'm sure, too confusing when already changing things :wacko:   Lets just use the top scoreing players from each country by the current format. Those that register the most are rewarded by haveing a better chance to increase their score! Sounds fair and easiest to me. AND they are only competing against their OWN COUNTRYmen/women during this phase !


So how many Qualify ????

I suggest-------

Top 1 from each country per Month gains selection to national team
Individual can only Qualify once so everyone has 3 bites at it because...
It goes for 3 Months. Each month scoring begins from zero but places in Team are taken up.
After three months , Qualifier now begins again from scratch , ie 3 places open.
Meanwhile the team of 3 from each country go onto TEAM LEAGUE 2nd stage and have 3 months to complete their matches !

(Note the effect of taking top 2 countrymen/women EACH month)

And on it rotates, all the while with regular twice weekly come as you please tourneybot tourneys  :D

So if Tryout or anyone can compile the TEAM results this is how i think we should make it happen :) I'm not sure we could run the 2nd phase (at bat) with the current format because only those who had qualified could enter ? At least not with tourneybot (or con-currently), very difficult for TD's.

What I suggest doesn't have to happen but please Someone who has the power please make a decision that is clearly an improvement  :D Please :)


Thanks. :)


Brizzy,

 has told me on Fibs she can do some of those times I suggested earlier but just would want to host the tourneybot phase and then someone else input results into the system. I'll ask that she post times she can do :)

Thanks Brizzy :)

and

Finally,

I got a home e-mail from a TD that i adore today, all it said was "but what is your question?"  That's it :)

Mostly out of all I've written I guess it would be "What do you think? " and ask that you please post it here :)

Please know i am going on about this, not for me or Australia, but for all those around the world that LOVE these tourneys on fibs. Because of this tourneys POTENTIAL to be Truely GLOBAL  :yes:  

If you agree please post it.
If you dis-agree please post it :) Maybe then I'll shut up  :D

Thanks for listening.



 







 
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Offline diane

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« Reply #31 on: June 12, 2004, 01:30:32 PM »
OK - pretty much all of this has me confused - but that is not difficult to do  :wacko:

If i understand anything at all - it seems to be that there is a growing feeling that the current BAGolympics should be used to draw up the players for the country team - if that is the case - then i will feel a whole lot more enthusiastic about it.  Although i stuck to the 'keep quiet now, and complain later' arrangement which seems to work so well  ;)  - i do feel a little mislead by all of this.

I dont remember - or didnt understand that the regular tournaments were going to be for the olympics thing - which i had said i was not very keen on (in this format at least). Hence i have not participated in any of the events - and was very reluctant to run one.

If, however, this is altered to be a selection process - then i feel it is quite a good one - of all those suggested - and would feel a lot happier about involving myself.
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« Reply #31 on: June 12, 2004, 01:30:32 PM »

Offline tryout

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« Reply #32 on: June 14, 2004, 12:55:39 PM »
Quote
I am suggestting a limited and equal number of entrants in a 2nd stage of the Bagolympics, after players qualify during the current format (stage 1), and wondered if you could incorporate a TEAM LEAGUE for the "Olympiad" on your TEAM site ?
Quote
Each rotation you would have countries playing each other with an ultimate crowning of World Champion TEAM.

If you are able to do this can you please let me know ? So we know if it's at least an option ?
Hmm, I'd have to think very hard about this. I'm tempted but I guess I won't have the time for another regular commitment. Running the normal team league takes up my rather limited time already quite a bit. But let's discuss the other things first.

Quote
So how many Qualify ????

I suggest-------

Top 1 from each country per Month gains selection to national team
Individual can only Qualify once so everyone has 3 bites at it because...
It goes for 3 Months. Each month scoring begins from zero but places in Team are taken up.
After three months , Qualifier now begins again from scratch , ie 3 places open.
Meanwhile the team of 3 from each country go onto TEAM LEAGUE 2nd stage and have 3 months to complete their matches !
Using Bagolympics for the selection of country team members sounds fine with me. This heavily reduces the need of country team captains. But perhaps they are still necessary. I haven't made up my mind yet about what I'd prefer for the exact process. Maybe just taking the 3 top players from each country after 3 months is better, or at least easier?

Anyway, other issues:
What if someone of the qualified players doesn't want or is unable to play the final league/tourney? Mind that this implies an availability for those players of 6 months! Also, I guess not everybody who's in for a short fun tourney will want to commit to play under a different system.

For the final tourney I can envision quite some tournament formats. It wouldn't have to be necessary a round robin league. Single or double elimination or Swiss would also do, as well as there's no necessity to act like a team. Interpreting individual results for the team would also suffice.

Quote
(Note the effect of taking top 2 countrymen/women EACH month)
Also possible, but weren't you talking about 1 each month above?
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Offline EddieVedd

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« Reply #33 on: June 14, 2004, 09:17:49 PM »
OK ! Progress !!  :jump:

After a long and productive chat with tryout (many thanks tryout and to Diane for your post ! ) on fibs tonight he has agreed to attach Stage 2 (??FibsOlympics??) to the Team League site and set it up for us. I have agreed to work with him and do as much as i can to help with workload etc after i learn how  :P

So in summary here's what is proposed;

Current bagolympics format continues as is.
     It will now double as a qualifier for selection into your National Team.
     There are 3 places availiable in each National Team.
      The highest scoring individual per country each Month is selected.
      The highest scoring individual of any country each Month wins the monthly Tournament (as well as National selection)
     
This continues for 3 months > A player can only qualify once.
If they were to win again, the 2nd placed countrymen would gain selection, but he/she could win the monthly (overall) tournament again (ie into Hall of fame).
     
Ties :  If Equal score >> the person who has registered the most over the month wins.
         
(If equal score and equal registrations ??? help please , maybe play-off match, ok for two but what if 3 or more (unlikely as it is) ? Highest/Lowest rating perhaps ??)

The first Team member selected (month 1) is now their countries Team Captain and is responsible for future communication with Organisers.

Minimum Qualification Requirements : 3 Individuals (beware multiple niks) who scored at least one point during month of selection.

Month 4 : Selection process re-starts (3 spots open)
               
              FibsOlympics TEAM Event begins !!

If 10 or less Teams meet minimum qualification requirements =  1 division Round Robin.

If more than 10 Teams = 2 divisions (seeded randomly) Round Robins with Final play-off as per Masters > Winner Div A Vs 2nd Div B    and     Winner Div B Vs 2nd Div A and Grand Final to finish.

Teams Have 3 months to complete and the winners are crowned World Champions  :D  


-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------


One of the good things here is most of the frame work for all this is already in place.

We need ;

To place changes and format on all relevant sites.

Advertise (during bagolympic sessions especially).

To consider alternate times for bagolympic sessions to cover all time zones (TD's).

Constructive suggestions  ;)



What do ya think ????       :innocent:  
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Offline diane

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« Reply #34 on: June 14, 2004, 09:43:28 PM »
ok - i think i get it - i guess i will pick it up as we go along - and those cleverer than me can take care of the paperwork  :D  
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Offline Tomawaky

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« Reply #35 on: June 15, 2004, 12:17:12 PM »
Quote
Ties :  If Equal score >> the person who has registered the most over the month wins.
         
(If equal score and equal registrations ??? help please , maybe play-off match, ok for two but what if 3 or more (unlikely as it is) ? Highest/Lowest rating perhaps ??)
Why not look for the best Average ?


Quote
The highest scoring individual per country each Month is selected

Yes if the player is agree to play for a team. We need to not forget that  :rolleyes:  
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« Reply #35 on: June 15, 2004, 12:17:12 PM »

Offline diane

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« Reply #36 on: June 15, 2004, 12:32:34 PM »
Surely if they dont agree to play for a team - they dont play as part of the 'olympics' - wasnt this always going to be a team event??
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Offline EddieVedd

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« Reply #37 on: June 15, 2004, 04:30:56 PM »
Thanks Tomawaky :)


Tomawaky Posted on Jun 15 2004, 12:17 PM
Quote
Why not look for the best Average ?

Correct me if I'm wrong but..........If they have the same score AND same number of registrations their average will be the same yes ? :)

Tomawaky Posted on Jun 15 2004, 12:17 PM

Quote
Yes if the player is agree to play for a team. We need to not forget that

Yes selection would be "optional" , so if they pass the next highest scorer is offered a place on the team and so on until not enough players to meet minimum qualification requirements and therefore no entry into FibsOlympics!

In the end we WANT 3 motivated entrants WANTING to represent their country. This also gives us the best chance of finishing all matches in 3 months :)

 
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Offline Tomawaky

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« Reply #38 on: June 15, 2004, 05:47:15 PM »
Quote
Tomawaky Posted on Jun 15 2004, 12:17 PM
Quote
Why not look for the best Average ?

Correct me if I'm wrong but..........If they have the same score AND same number of registrations their average will be the same yes ? :)
:oops:
Need a rest and coming back  :D

 :sleepey:  :sleepey:  :sleepey:  :sleepey:  :sleepey:  :sleepey:  :sleepey:

So why not about
- the overall number of points
- the overall average
- The best score for a session
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Offline EddieVedd

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« Reply #39 on: June 15, 2004, 07:41:52 PM »
:)   np    :)

It depends if we want to reward more registrations or not ? Because the MORE you register the LOWER your average will be ! Seems a bit unfair to me.

If you agree i would suggest

- the overall number of points
- the overall registrations
- The best score for a session (Good idea thanks :yes: . Very unlikely but if STILL equal)
-  2nd best score for a session and so on .......(countback)



 
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