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Ban of Team-brb from Team League

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Offline dorbel

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Ban of Team-brb from Team League
« Reply #40 on: July 21, 2004, 01:49:33 AM »
Every tournament or league that I have ever seen reserves the right to refuse entry to any player, without being obliged to give any reason or offer any redress. This rule appears to me to be eminently sensible. Refusing entry to NIHILIST on the grounds that he had created another nick may not be particularly fair or justified under any specific rules, but tryout is within his rights to refuse.
The invention of the name "try_fascism_out" is however particularly provocative and offensive. Souptree's cowardly assertion that this is in fact some sort of genuine political statement is patently ludicrous. It is a calculated insult.
It seems to me that to accuse somebody of being a fascist or, as NIHILIST implies in his post, a nazi and/or racist, goes far beyond acceptable standards. One can hardly be blamed if one draws the conclusion that souptree and NIHILIST are indeed, unsuitable entrants for a fun league, where the accent should be on friendly competition between players from all over the world.
I have never met tryout, but I have played him and found him to be a notably pleasant and sporting opponent.
 

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Ban of Team-brb from Team League
« Reply #40 on: July 21, 2004, 01:49:33 AM »

Offline NIHILIST

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« Reply #41 on: July 21, 2004, 03:23:03 AM »
Just for the record, I was asked by souptree if I wanted to join Team BRB after Don left. I told him I would. The next thing, I had a login message from houtx saying tryout had some ISSUES with our team that needed to be settled before the next round of matches.

To the best of my recollection I have never spoken to tryout, never played him, etc. He never brought his concern directly to my attention, instead posting his "rationale" here using words like COWARDICE in his rant.

If he'd bothered to contact me directly and told me I couldn't use another nick I'd have withdrawn from the team and none of this would have been necessary.

NIHI
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Ban of Team-brb from Team League
« Reply #41 on: July 21, 2004, 03:23:03 AM »

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« Reply #42 on: July 21, 2004, 04:19:39 AM »
I just read the log posted by tryout.  I have no dog in this fight but just wanted to comment that I am a riot!

You people are so lucky to have me.  I was laughing so hard at what I wrote that port wine came out of my nose!

PortWine  :2drunk:  

Offline EddieVedd

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« Reply #43 on: July 21, 2004, 01:41:00 PM »
A BEGGINERS GUIDE TO THIS IMPORTANT TOPIC Part 1

This thread has exploded with replies that have produced some vicious rock throwing. Thankfully this is an unusual event on the whole. It does however offer great insight into how things work & why problems occur. While i consider it obvious what is going on here I'm concerned that those without insight into WHO is saying WHAT and WHY will be ill-prepared to make an informed decision.

Why is this important ? Because participation is the foundation of these events. If one were to chose not to take part because of an ill-informed stance, they would miss out on the opportunities it provided them on a regular basis. To this end the following is a SUMMARY of WHAT has been said so far but more importantly WHO has said it and WHY.  I encourage experienced Leaguers to read it but expect most have already made up their mind. Without any patronising it is aimed at those new to fibs/fibsleague/fibsboard and those that join from here on ! Welcome :)


THE PLAYERS (in chronological order of posts). I will follow the posts from the begginging. Because it has grown long so quickly open another window that allows you to swap between this guide and the actual posts at the beggining of the thread.

[span style=\'color:green\']TRYOUT[/u][/span]

Tryout created a Team Tournament a long time ago where, currently, 13 Teams of 3 compete for fun over 2 monthly sessions, ie 6 per year.  He has run this in his own time for the benefit of others around the globe (this is an important point ! there is no hidden agenda here, it is truly gracious effort !) for a conciderable time now. He gets no reward for this other than the odd thanks from those inclined. Tryout is a longtime Fibs player with a good Fibs reputation. [Any time you are on fibs you can type "t repbot ask >players name<" for an appraisal of anyones fibs reputation]

Firstly, as organiser of the event he informs all participants via this thread of the banning of Team_brb from his tournament. He choses to offer reasons for this even though this is not required. Tounament organisers have final say. He says it's for transparency. It is difficult to find another reason.

Initially though, before this post, leading up to the deadline for registration, Tryout balked at a late player change in the team line up because he had concerns over it's equality regarding others participants. He says....

Quote
While it is not my business whether people have more than one nickname - Patti has to deal with this - I'm responsible for fair-play in TL. In case anybody is not familiar with the FIBS rating formula, this means that if you play against NIHolympic, whether you win or lose and regardless of your own rating, you'll be cheated. If you win you'd get _far_ less points than if you had played the same person but under NIHILIST with a rating of 2283.86. Equally, if you lose to NIHolympic you'd lose _far_ more points than if you had lost to NIHILIST


This is issue number one. Despite being referred to later as wrong everything he says here is true. The formula is a complex one but because he has said "if you had played the same person" all his conclusions from there are accurate. The issue becomes should a player have another Nik (login name) for Tournament play. This is a new issue. I have only seen it on one occsasion so far in a different tournament. Patti ( a person instrumental in the existence of Fibs) requests only 1 Nik per person. Presumably for memory constraints on the server (not sure). Given all the tournament play is on Fibs i feel there should be some hesitation at allowing it. She also requests no rudeness/racism which as we'll see (and has been noted before today) is very hard to enforce. So trying to enforce one of her requests for a FibsLeague Tournament is difficult at best. Tryout raised it though with concern for the other players in the Team League. This makes sense to me as the whole Team Event and its participants are his concern. However it becomes (and remains) a sub-issue ! Tryout goes on to say.....

Quote
So obviously, I'm not happy with this team application. However, in order to make an effort I offered to accept the team even with this nick, but stated very clearly that I'd encourage all opponents to play this single match with another nickname. I realize that this wouldn't have been a clean solution, though.

The sub-issue is left open for discussion. He would have allowed entry but felt it necessary to voice his concerns to other entrants for equality. Remeber ....He runs/organises the tournament month in month out and the next one is starting very soon.

THEN, some days later without any further advice from the Team captain, he gets the e-mail that is the real issue of this whole post. The Team has decided to change their Team name to "Team-try_fascism_out". Tryout is from Germany and this is known by all the other 'players' in this thread at least. Here you should decide if you think linking the organisers name with the term fascism is appropriate. Does anyone , be they from Germany or anywhere, be they the organiser or entrant deserve that ?

This is the crux of the issue and where the biggest lesson can be learnt about why things go wrong.  If this e-mail / name change had never been sent the banning would not have occured. If those that chose to do so can't accept the error here, the insult, there is nothing anyone can do to change their mind. Others though, importantly, can form their own opinion and be aware of those that consider it appropriate behaviour. To expect Tryout to just accept this and carry on regardless i believe is asking too much of even the most patient soul. So it was here that he lost patience and got on with looking after the other entrants......

Quote
I wish everybody else good and fair matches.

Best regards,

tryout

P.S. Did I mention that I do this for fun, voluntarily and unpaid?


[span style=\'color:green\']SOUPTREE
[/u][/span]

Souptree is a long time player on fibs with a good rating. He plays in the League and Team League as well as the online tourneys. My experience with him has been very pleasant for a long time. He is often funny and has a good "reputation" on Fibs. His involvement in this event has surprised me and changed my opinion of him sadly. Until i see, that he see's, the insult in the Team name change.

He begins the first of many posts gingerly with a single question on technicalities.......

Quote
Am I right in my understanding that you are banning us because you don't like a name

Does he ignore the insult here because it's an innocent poitical statement ? Or is he avoiding it because he knows the truth to be indefensible?

Tryout suprisingly replies NO , when a yes would have been acceptable, but would have fuelled the fight over a technicality. More likely Tryout answered No because there were a combination of factors (including personal insult) that contributed to the decision to ban. Tryout also asks in reply......

Quote
And I've heard, that name suggestion came from you. Is that correct?

Someone came up with the idea to chose that name and send it to Tryout. This is critical to his way of thinking particularly as in this instance it is a personal attack and a 3 member TEAM has been affected. This question is never answered in any of the posts that follow !

Souptree posts again, doesn't answer Tryout's question and has another go at pinning him down on the technicality. Tryout doesn't reply (hopefully getting a good nights sleep now) and enter ..........

[span style=\'color:green\']NIHILIST[/span]

He begins with an insult to the Tournament organiser. Nihilist is a long time user of Fibs and has a high rating because of what is known as a "bottom feeding" or something like that (he has freely admitted these facts in the past). This is someone who plays 1 or 2 point games, only with low rated players, with high experience, to make use of the Fibs Rating Formula to elevate his rating. He sits on top of the fibs rating list because of his patience at doing this. He rarley if ever plays other matches. He does not compete in League or Tournament play and has a bad Fibs reputation.

All this is not illegal and is done by a few others (notably "reno" who has just sold his account on e-bay for US$32 ! here  . Interestingly Patti has since worded her message when you log into Fibs to suggest this transfer of accounts will mean a resignation and dissolution of the account! So, as this often pops up as a point of discussion on fibs, you're allowed to do this but there are few answers as to what the point of it is ? What is the point of it? You decide. It takes us back to issue number one though. Why Nihilist wanted to have another Nik for Tounament play. He does not put his skill on the line for fear of decreasing his rating with the NIHILIST Nik. Something which 99% of people who play on fibs do without a second thought. He feels so strongly about this he puts it this way......

Quote
I created a specific nick strictly for tourney play. If I used NIHILIST there is absolutely NO UPSIDE in terms of FIBS rating.

Since there's no prize money in this alleged tourney, and no upside in FIBS rating points, what would be my motivation to play ?

This is a extraordinary insight/admission as to this persons motivations. It is clear that unlike 99% of fibsters he does not play for fun and competition! Rest assured that is why the scores who play in the FibsLeague / Tournaments play, I'm sure of it. It's why I play.  Why would he play ? Why would he bother ? Given all this I'm not sure.

This i can accept without understanding...... but the insult to finish his post gives even further insight into WHO is saying WHAT and WHY you should be informed before you form an opinion either way.......

Quote
Finally, I'm not surprised that Tryout has such a keen grasp of the word FASCISM. His handling if this tourney would make his ancestors beam with joy.

NIHI

P.S. Is Tryout allowing Jews, Gypsies and other non-Aryans to enter his tourney ?

Decide for youself if these are the words of a well meaning , hard done by soul or......I mean really, to suggest Tryout has persecuted a Team at this stage because of their race, religion or that he has initiated the fight  is ?Laughable?Appalling?Racist?Rude?Worthy of banning just for that? I cant put a single word to it that does it justice ????! Remember Tryout has hosted this tourney without incident for a long time. He has created it. The rest of the participants around the world have prospered from it . He was going to allow entry even with another NIk. The insulting e-mail/name change is THEN sent to Tryout and he is the one accused of poor form ! Fascism !!  I mean Really ! But you decide.

To highlight further the way some (thankfully a tiny percentage) would divert the issues away from reason and use unfounded attacks to cover this up, I quote from Nihilist a bit earlier in his first post.......

Quote
His convoluted reason for disallowing a team due to the FIBS rating formula is nonsense and demonstrates that he has no knowledge how real tournaments are run.

Can you see the irony ?

Now it is suddenly Tryout who has banned the Team "due to" the Fibs Rating Formula !  Which happens to be the reason those who chose to "bottom feed" play on Fibs. AND the person who has chosen not to enter Tourneys since their creation on fibs, Nihilist-protecting that rating,  would have us believe the soul who has been doing it successfully for ages doesn't know how !! Amazing !! Wrong & Wrong.

We'll end Part 1 of The Begginers Guide here while you digest these points and begin to formulate your own opinion. To see if you have "a dog in this fight" ?

In finishing i leave you with a most saliet point ironically again made by Souptree posted further on in the thread.  BTW, BTW is 'by the way'  :) ....

 
Quote
BTW, why would I apologize when we were the only ones wronged? tryout could have asked if any offense was meant. I guess he's psychic though.

Those who refuse to admit a mistake will usually become defensive, demanding of others who have already given plenty, and give nothing of themselves ...continuing the trend.

Tryout could have asked ...would you ?
"Excuse me , was that meant as an insult ?"

Houtx, give us a post :)

The rest of you....... Peace till Part 2  :wub:

Happy rolling :) ..........
 


 
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« Reply #43 on: July 21, 2004, 01:41:00 PM »

Offline souptree

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« Reply #44 on: July 21, 2004, 03:00:00 PM »
Well, at least we have all learned one important lesson from this -- EddieVedd needs a hobby.

But seriously, folks:

Quote
Tryout could have asked ...would you ?
"Excuse me , was that meant as an insult ?"

Probably, if it was coming from someone whom I had never had any reason to believe there was a conflict with.  I am STILL waiting for tryout to explain what the supposed ISSUES were, given that he was not going to disqualify us due to NIH's alternate nick, but decided to only after seeing the name, what exactly are these ISSUES that required RESOLVING?

In his original post, tryout says:
Quote
I offered to accept the team even with this nick

then goes on to state:

Quote
In the chats last week with houtx it also appeared that he as the team captain hadn't even talked to NIHILIST personally yet, despite my indicating the problems.

Today I finally found an email from houtx of Sunday asking to change their team name from "Team-brb" to "Team-try_fascism_out"!  (For those Germans who aren't able to translate this well: "Team-Probier_mal_Faschismus".)

Not only is there lacking any hint of having tried to solve the nickname issue, but instead I'm presented with a provocation. Well, I'd call it abysmal impertinence.

What problems?  What nickname issue?  It would appear tryout is employing a bit of revisionist history.

What reason would any of the three of us, let alone ALL three of us have had for insulting him prior to his, as NIH correctly observed, convoluted rant at the start of this thread?  NIHILIST claims he has never spoken to tryout, and neither have I.  No issues were brought to my attention before this thread was begun, and interestingly, none since.  I had no reason to dislike tryout or to insult him.  I am well known for making sarcastic political statements on fibs, so why this should not be accepted at face value is beyond me.

I was told we needed to pick a new player and a name by Saturday.  We did this.  Next thing you know, we're being flamed by tryout, who got it back in kind.

So, to bring this around full circle, am I correct in my understanding that you are banning us because you didn't like our choice of name?  If not, as you previously replied, what are these supposed issues that we were banned for?

Maybe tryout could post another shout transcript from weaky in lieu of reply.  That was a good one.
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Offline diane

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« Reply #45 on: July 21, 2004, 03:13:25 PM »
Quote

So, my decision of disallowing your team comes from all the things together. That mail just hit it off.
So you are looking for yet another explanation, other than this one then? (didnt repeat the whole post - but i am sure you can refer back to it for the rest.)
« Last Edit: July 21, 2004, 03:14:59 PM by diane »
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Offline NIHILIST

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« Reply #46 on: July 21, 2004, 04:24:22 PM »
If anyone bothers to read the very first post of this novel, you will see that your TD began things with an insult directed at ME; my alleged cowardice to play using my NIHILIST nick. He set the tone for all this, not I.

Once again, if he had simply contacted me directly and stated his concern, I'd have withdrawn as I did once before in League.


NIHI
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Offline tryout

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« Reply #47 on: July 21, 2004, 04:49:49 PM »
Thanks Eddie and all others for posting, also for those numerous emails I got!

A small correction for the record: I'm not sure who invented it, but I suppose it was cht, who ran it for 1 or 2 seasons before he couldn't continue with it.



There's really no reason in repeating myself, so I won't. Those persons who have problems reading, should go back and reread it. Or they should get someone to read it for them.

For those readers who may not be familiar with team league one small point:
Every team has a captain who is responsible for team actions and communication with me. The team captain of Team-brb was houtx.

And for setting the record straight (I leave it to anyone's opinion whether NIHILIST is lying or whether he doesn't know it better, even the easy technical bits):
After my last chat with houtx last week, where I've told him to sort things out in his team, I left a FIBS message to NIHILIST (presumably the one he is referencing) to communicate with his team captain. For some reason I wasn't sure that houtx would stand up to his promise.
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« Reply #47 on: July 21, 2004, 04:49:49 PM »

Offline souptree

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« Reply #48 on: July 21, 2004, 05:04:40 PM »
Again, what was the issue that was unfulfilled by the team?  We found a member and chose a name by the deadline.  Was there something else we were supposed to do that I am not aware of?

I am still not sure in what regard you feel houtx and consequently our team did not fulfill the requirements.
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Offline burper

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« Reply #49 on: July 21, 2004, 05:07:41 PM »
The TD reserves the right to ban without having to state a reason.
If you don't like it, don't enter tournies hosted by that TD.
The TD market will right itself.

Those that childishly look for loopholes into which to insert their extravagant views about fascism will have to find another place to do it I suspect.

Offline nilla

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« Reply #50 on: July 21, 2004, 08:02:56 PM »
I really think I didn’t misunderstand the insult to Tryout no matter if the word was "fascism" or "fascist" as discussed earlier in this thread. I find this insult unbearable and the worst insult possible.

In this matter I can’t see a difference between the two words and its obvious to me that they are meant as an insult...I have really tried to find another approach but I just can’t…if not maybe some try to make fun of Tryout but in that case that’s really bad enough.

To even suggest such a name for a team is a very bad thing and to me an  obvious and deliberate insulting of Tryout. People might feel offended by the meaning of the name and therefore could be irritated even during the matches which could make it harder to focus on play. It's not good sportsmanship to have such a name for a team as it is obviously annoying (to express myself in a mild way) to many people.

I do believe that playing should be a nice experience to share with people from all over the world regardless of nationality, religion or colour. I also think that everyone should play with the nick they ordinarily have, it’s a matter of respect towards the opponent. If it’s just the points what matters why play in a tournament at all, where you cant choose your opponent by rating.

I give all my support to Tryout and his way to handle this so the matches are as fair as possible for everyone participating. To make a stand like Tryout did by banning the team is very courageous and shows that he really takes responsibility for running the team-league.

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Offline dorbel

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« Reply #51 on: July 21, 2004, 08:25:46 PM »
Well said Nilla.  

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« Reply #51 on: July 21, 2004, 08:25:46 PM »

Offline adrian

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« Reply #52 on: July 21, 2004, 09:14:01 PM »
I agree burper, and nothing more than a  :) for this topic.
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Offline NIHILIST

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« Reply #53 on: July 21, 2004, 11:43:07 PM »
This is getting downright sanctimonious and laughable. Nilla's "I find this insult ( the reference to fascism ) unbearable and the worst insult possible".

THE WORST INSULT POSSIBLE ???? You must be joking. Some of the same good people who find a reference to fascism in a backgammon teams name to be the most heinous kind of crime are the same folks who day after day shout worse insults at the USA and its current President.

While I suppose this is to be thought of as POLITICAL DEBATE, it's astonishing that the Euro-crowd should take such umbrage to an accurate reference of its not too distant past. If the shoe fits.............

Dorbel's self-professed repugnance at someone being called a fascist or racist is positively jaw-dropping. Where is all this indignation when I get shouted as a fascist or racist day after day ? I've certainly never seen him express it.

Get over it, people. The team whose name is the worst insult possible will never play a match. And the members of the team really don't much give a crap.


NIHI
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Offline diane

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« Reply #54 on: July 22, 2004, 12:02:42 AM »
Quote
THE WORST INSULT POSSIBLE ???? You must be joking.

And this is a man who knows his insults  :D  
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Offline webrunner

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« Reply #55 on: July 22, 2004, 12:04:32 AM »
Nilla is right.. there is no way to interpret that name other then as an insult. If anyone (souptree perhaps?)  knows how else this could be taken, please enlighten us!

Otherwise i think an apology is in it's place. Even being called a coward is not even half as bad as being called a facist.
« Last Edit: July 22, 2004, 12:05:19 AM by webrunner »
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« Reply #55 on: July 22, 2004, 12:04:32 AM »

Offline diane

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« Reply #56 on: July 22, 2004, 12:09:03 AM »
Quote

What insult?

What indication has been given to you to believe it wasn't a simple political statement?  We are CONSTANTLY being accused in shout of being fascists for believing that fighting a war against terrorists is justified.  Why shouldn't we embrace the accusation?  We feel all of you should try fascism out and just see if you don't feel safer!

 
Souptree has done his best here - convincing wasnt it ?  :D
« Last Edit: July 22, 2004, 12:27:07 AM by diane »
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Offline JLee

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« Reply #57 on: July 22, 2004, 01:04:14 AM »
Might I get a team banned for suggesting a name like try_hedonism_out?  Can I get some official guidelines as to what is acceptable and what is not acceptable?

JLee

Offline NIHILIST

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« Reply #58 on: July 22, 2004, 02:01:32 AM »
Thanks for clarifying. I'll be certain my future shouted insults stop short of calling anyone a Fascist, since you folks assure me that it's the worst insult possible.

Incidentally, I've always felt that word was used rather loosely, so I shout-asked if anyone could define it. No one could.

I presume you've all learned the definition so as to be properly outraged.


NIHI
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Offline dorbel

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« Reply #59 on: July 22, 2004, 02:51:10 AM »
If NIHILIST is incapable of appreciating that his sarcastic postscript "Will tryout also ban jews, gypsies and other non-aryans?" is grossly offensive, then nothing anyone can say will help him to grasp it. Really NIHI, what possible connection is their between Germany's Nazi past and tryout rejecting your entry for a tournament? As for my not protesting against attacks on Americanx, I often do. Again, most people can differentiate between legitimate criticism of a country's foreign policy and blanket criticism of that country's citizens. For most fibsters the words International Friendship are meaningful. NIHILIST's tragedy is that he cannot even grasp the concept, much less practise it.
He is however, correct on one point. The word fascism is used far too loosely and understood by very few. Nazi Germany was not a fascist state.  

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