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Ban of Team-brb from Team League

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Offline tryout

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Ban of Team-brb from Team League
« on: July 19, 2004, 11:45:54 PM »
Hi all,

Unfortunately, I'm forced to disallow Team-brb in this Team League season. For transparency I will state the reasons here.

As a replacement for don who didn't want to play in this season anymore, Team-brb came up with NIHILIST as a replacement. That is, first I learned from houtx, the team captain of Team-brb, in an informal chat, that they wanted to contact NIHILIST. After I didn't hear anything from them I only learned after inquiry last week that NIHILIST would play for them.

However, he would indeed be so cowardly and not enter with his nickname NIHILIST, but under another nickname, namely NIHolympic, which last week had a rating of 15xx and a virtually non-existing experience.

While it is not my business whether people have more than one nickname - Patti has to deal with this - I'm responsible for fair-play in TL. In case anybody is not familiar with the FIBS rating formula, this means that if you play against NIHolympic, whether you win or lose and regardless of your own rating, you'll be cheated. If you win you'd get _far_ less points than if you had played the same person but under NIHILIST with a rating of 2283.86. Equally, if you lose to NIHolympic you'd lose _far_ more points than if you had lost to NIHILIST.

It seems to me that someone who apparently cares that much about his own rating should respect the ratings of other players.

So obviously, I'm not happy with this team application. However, in order to make an effort I offered to accept the team even with this nick, but stated very clearly that I'd encourage all opponents to play this single match with another nickname. I realize that this wouldn't have been a clean solution, though.

In the chats last week with houtx it also appeared that he as the team captain hadn't even talked to NIHILIST personally yet, despite my indicating the problems.

Today I finally found an email from houtx of Sunday asking to change their team name from "Team-brb" to "Team-try_fascism_out"!  (For those Germans who aren't able to translate this well: "Team-Probier_mal_Faschismus".)

Not only is there lacking any hint of having tried to solve the nickname issue, but instead I'm presented with a provocation. Well, I'd call it abysmal impertinence.

I wish everybody else good and fair matches.

Best regards,

   tryout

P.S. Did I mention that I do this for fun, voluntarily and unpaid?
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Ban of Team-brb from Team League
« on: July 19, 2004, 11:45:54 PM »

Offline souptree

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« Reply #1 on: July 20, 2004, 12:54:54 AM »
Am I right in my understanding that you are banning us because you don't like a name?

Abysmal impertinence, indeed, m'lord.
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Ban of Team-brb from Team League
« Reply #1 on: July 20, 2004, 12:54:54 AM »

Offline tryout

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Ban of Team-brb from Team League
« Reply #2 on: July 20, 2004, 01:01:25 AM »
Quote
Am I right in my understanding that you are banning us because you don't like a name?
No, you're not. But you did read my entire post, didn't you?

And I've heard, that name suggestion came from you. Is that correct?
« Last Edit: July 20, 2004, 01:03:40 AM by tryout »
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Offline souptree

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« Reply #3 on: July 20, 2004, 02:25:46 AM »
Quote
So obviously, I'm not happy with this team application. However, in order to make an effort I offered to accept the team even with this nick, but stated very clearly that I'd encourage all opponents to play this single match with another nickname.
Of course I read your entire post.  You state that you were going to accept the team.  What changed after that point other than the presentation of a name that you didn't like?
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Ban of Team-brb from Team League
« Reply #3 on: July 20, 2004, 02:25:46 AM »

Offline NIHILIST

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« Reply #4 on: July 20, 2004, 02:57:32 AM »
I thought the idea of Team/League play was to run ongoing tournaments open to all. I appreciate that Tryout does this without pay, and would offer the comment that he's worth every penny.

His convoluted reason for disallowing a team due to the FIBS rating formula is nonsense and demonstrates that he has no knowledge how real tournaments are run.

In a real tourney, if someone enters the OPEN division, he pays his money and takes his chances. He might play Paul Magriel or he might play VegasVic. His entry fee isn't adjusted and his prize money doesn't get increased or reduced according to the difference in skill level.

I created a specific nick strictly for tourney play. If I used NIHILIST there is absolutely NO UPSIDE in terms of FIBS rating.

Since there's no prize money in this alleged tourney, and no upside in FIBS rating points, what would be my motivation to play ?

Finally, I'm not surprised that Tryout has such a keen grasp of the word FASCISM. His handling if this tourney would make his ancestors beam with joy.


NIHI

P.S. Is Tryout allowing Jews, Gypsies and other non-Aryans to enter his tourney ?
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Offline don

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« Reply #5 on: July 20, 2004, 05:17:01 AM »
I must confess I'm a little confused about tryout's reasons for banning team-brb by whatever name they choose.  In the past, tryout has been a stickler for at least *some* of the rules of team play [http://fibsleagammon.free.fr/team.htm] if not all of them, but this is the first time I've seen him enforce rules that don't exist.  Where are his rules about player IDs and team names?  As nearly as I can tell, houtx and team-brb have followed the rules listed by tryout.  Not all teams do.

As for multi-IDs on FIBS (and in team-league play), if this is a rule then tryout should enforce it equally on ALL players of ALL teams.  He's got to be kidding if he expects Patti to enforce or even care out multi-IDs as they relate to FIBS league.

Finally, I'd like to see tryout's analysis of the overall win/loss in ratings points based on the assumptions that one's opponent's ratings are inflated/valid/deflated.

Good luck to team-brb or Team-Probier_mal_Faschismus!  A rose by any other name would smell as sweet!

 
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« Reply #6 on: July 20, 2004, 06:08:14 AM »
This was fun until don showed up.

Offline Tomawaky

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« Reply #7 on: July 20, 2004, 06:50:29 AM »
Personnaly I can understand people who want to play tourney with another nick even if it's not my way of living.

It's true that at the beginning rating is a little cheated. But just at the beginning, with experience growing and rating getting bigger, there will not be any more trouble.

The only point that can be discussed is : It is correct that people can have more than one nickname to log on Fibs !

One more time, if there is no abuse and NIHILIST don't try to hide himself behind his new nick, he just want to play tourney with one nick and other matchs with another. I said why not !
 
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« Reply #7 on: July 20, 2004, 06:50:29 AM »

Offline webrunner

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« Reply #8 on: July 20, 2004, 07:02:10 AM »
Quote
Personnaly I can understand people who want to play tourney with another nick even if it's not my way of living.

It's true that at the beginning rating is a little cheated. But just at the beginning, with experience growing and rating getting bigger, there will not be any more trouble.

The only point that can be discussed is : It is correct that people can have more than one nickname to log on Fibs !

One more time, if there is no abuse and NIHILIST don't try to hide himself behind his new nick, he just want to play tourney with one nick and other matchs with another. I said why not !
NIHI, take a look at this post from Tomawaky.
It is making the same point as your post or at least aming the same goal, only without calling someone a facsist.

We should be more carefull to call eachother names. AS good discussion is the intelligent way of solving stuff like this, not mud throwing (i have learned that the hard way ;))

But i have to agree that banning the whole team alltogether wasn't in the spirit of Fibs and seems a bit overreacted.
« Last Edit: July 20, 2004, 07:02:40 AM by webrunner »
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Offline diane

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« Reply #9 on: July 20, 2004, 08:05:07 AM »
Whatever the ins and outs of the nick issue, the simple fact is you insulted tryout - deliberately. No attempt whatsoever towards resolution, just an attack.  Nihilst wrote somewhere of others - 'they are free to pick up their toys and go home anytime'.  You insulted him, he picked up his toys and said you cant play - be a grown up and accept it.

 
Quote
But i have to agree that banning the whole team alltogether wasn't in the spirit of Fibs and seems a bit overreacted.

There was no indication that this name was a joke, and that they intended to actually play under another name - so why should tryout go a whole season with that insult in his face??
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Offline souptree

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« Reply #10 on: July 20, 2004, 08:33:04 AM »
Quote
the simple fact is you insulted tryout - deliberately.
What insult?

What indication has been given to you to believe it wasn't a simple political statement?  We are CONSTANTLY being accused in shout of being fascists for believing that fighting a war against terrorists is justified.  Why shouldn't we embrace the accusation?  We feel all of you should try fascism out and just see if you don't feel safer!

Some people are a bit quick on the draw in jumping to conclusions.

Certainly, NOBODY, including tryout or diane has bothered to inquire as to the intended interpretation of the chosen name.

Might I add that though it wasn't an insult directed at tryout, he's certainly proven the point, had we been making it.  Which, of course, we weren't.

 :wacko:

We now return you to your regularly scheduled discussion of what the meaning of is is.
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Offline klic

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« Reply #11 on: July 20, 2004, 09:11:55 AM »
souptree, while your statement may be true (of course, I'm not the person to query your intentions), the statements by NIHILIST:

Quote
finally, I'm not surprised that Tryout has such a keen grasp of the word FASCISM. His handling if this tourney would make his ancestors beam with joy.


NIHI

P.S. Is Tryout allowing Jews, Gypsies and other non-Aryans to enter his tourney ?

make this a full fledged insult, IMHO. Even though it might be induced by anger, I still think it's way too harsh. So anybody reading this post did not necessarily expect it being because of your experiences of shouts on FIBS...

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« Reply #11 on: July 20, 2004, 09:11:55 AM »

Offline diane

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« Reply #12 on: July 20, 2004, 09:15:45 AM »
And Houtx would do well to remember those are his ancestors too.

And when does the free speech dance start - cant wait for that one  :D  
« Last Edit: July 20, 2004, 09:23:14 AM by diane »
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Offline souptree

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« Reply #13 on: July 20, 2004, 09:34:30 AM »
Quote
And Houtx would do well to remember those are his ancestors too.

And when does the free speech dance start - cant wait for that one  :D
I think we have a winner for the most condescending post of the year award.

Congrats, diane!!  We all knew you could do it.
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Offline souptree

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« Reply #14 on: July 20, 2004, 09:38:30 AM »
Quote
the statements by NIHILIST make this a full fledged insult, IMHO.
Even IF this were true, it occurred AFTER tryout banned us arbitrarily, and without cause.

The subject of this thread is not the thread itself, though I'm sure the peanut gallery would love to make it otherwise.
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Offline diane

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« Reply #15 on: July 20, 2004, 09:57:09 AM »
Anytime Soup  ;)  
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« Reply #15 on: July 20, 2004, 09:57:09 AM »

Offline alef

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« Reply #16 on: July 20, 2004, 10:10:26 AM »
I believe TDs have the rarely used but totally clear "right to refuse entry". tryout was called a fascist and decided he won't allow them, fair call.

I'm very struck by how quickly harsh judgements fall on TDs by people who never run tournaments. It's not fun arbitrating which is presumably why there aren't more people don't regularly TD. The way I read the general vibe heading after all the TourneyBot hassles is that each TD can do as they please and others can choose to enter or not enter their tournaments. It's not an ideal solution, but seems the only thing viable.
« Last Edit: July 20, 2004, 10:11:38 AM by alef »

Offline souptree

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« Reply #17 on: July 20, 2004, 10:19:29 AM »
tryout was never called a fascist.  please pay attention.
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Offline diane

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« Reply #18 on: July 20, 2004, 10:34:53 AM »
ok, let us assume for a moment, that the name team try_facist_out was not intended as an insult, but as the other stuff you cite in your third post.  Why does you first post not explain this logically, and, i dont know, take the radical step of apologising for any offence caused - since it was, after all, unintentional?

Then the thread begins in earnest - we see nihilst flying his colours, and we see what you were about from the outset IMHO.

I am struggling with your other interpretation of the situation, and will wander off thinking you intended the insult - and perhaps even thought tryout was not smart enough to see it.
« Last Edit: July 20, 2004, 10:35:22 AM by diane »
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Offline souptree

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« Reply #19 on: July 20, 2004, 10:48:18 AM »
Quote
Why does you first post not explain this logically, and, i dont know, take the radical step of apologising for any offence caused - since it was, after all, unintentional?
Mostly because I am still waiting for tryout to respond to me.  He stated in his second post that we were NOT banned for our choice of name.  I am awaiting a response as to what we WERE banned for, if this was not the case.

Incidentally, the discussion is with tryout, not with you.  If you reread, you find:

Quote
Am I right in my understanding that you are banning us because you don't like a name?

Quote
No, you're not.

Quote
You state that you were going to accept the team.  What changed after that point other than the presentation of a name that you didn't like?

Now.  Interacting with you is certainly very exciting, diane, but I simply MUST get back to dusting my lint collection.  I will reserve my remaining comments for someone relevant to the discussion.

BTW, why would I apologize when we were the only ones wronged?  tryout could have asked if any offense was meant.  I guess he's psychic though.
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