Community or snakepit?

[webrunner]

II would like to start a discussion on the way some people are spoiling it for other people on FIBS.
First i want to point out the following: i am here and on FIBS for FUN, to play Backgammon and to meet interesting people, nothing else.
I think most players are on fibs for the same reason.

In this topic i mainly talk about zyxtcba but i also mean others like NIHILIST who sometimes, out of the blue, starts being rude to other people, even when those people are being positive.

Yesterday i saw zyxtcba shouting terrible faul language to Kari Grandi and others.
He was really being offensive to Kari, and i feld offended by just reading what he was shouting.
I know for a fact that there are children playing on fibs as well.
The level profanities was getting worse by the minute and i got fed up with my screen getting polluted by this guy.

So I entered the discussion asking if he for once could shut op or at least use some normal language. I really shouldn't have done this. It was just oil on the fire.
In the heat of the discussion i have said loads of stuff that might have offended other people watching. I was trying ,in his own language, to get him to stop, since everyone else already tried other things with this guy.
I truly apologize if i have offended anyone and want to set the record straight about me: i normally don't use language like that.

The strange thing is that this guy has a good rep according to repbot. After looking with "list" i saw why: NIHILIST, Biggles, snowflakes, Mort etc.
All people who like to offend other people, using rude language and playing God because they think that a high rating gives them the right to kick around and offend anyone they like.
For now i will call these people the "kindergarden gang".  

It seems to me that this gang is slowly ruining fibs for me and others.
We already lost a great player, and person by the rudeness of these people (Cyan), which is a real loss for FIBS. She is a great person and i think i speak for lots of players if i say that she is missed. She was everybody's friend.

I am really getting fed up with these characters and thus i am starting a crusade right here, right now against all the people that are spoiling fibs in my opinion.
Yesterday i almost decided that i would stop all my activities on Fibs and shut down the bots and fibsboard.
But then i figured, he got what he wanted and people who actually enjoy the board and the bots would be the victim of this.

But since i am putting a lot of time in this site and other stuff like the bots, i can at least choose for who i am spending my time.

So i will bann zyxtcba from all the mgnu bots as a first sanction.
The ban will only be withdrawn if:
1. zyxtcba stops using profound language and acts as a normal human being, with respect for others.
2. zyxtcba publicly apologizes to me, here on the board or on FIBS.

Also i would like to suggest a global ban for this guy for all TB tourneys. I know i am not a TB operator but since i run the bot i figure i can at least suggest it.

The last thing i want to ask anyone reading this and agreeing with me, to use repbot for complaining about people that are offensive to you in any way.
Repbot is not only for complaining about droppers but also for warning people about offensive players.

I am drawing the line here and will not hesitate to ban other people from the bots.
I don't want to be the fibs police but i do want this place to be fun and also safe for children. It is a free server, which attracts children. If you want a server with only adults, you should go to a payed server. And.. as i said before i like to spend time on this community but not on the people that spoil it for me and others.

A note for Trynity, who correctly stated that FIBS is depressing her : that is what i am trying to turn around.
Fibs is more and more turning into a snakepit of psychological damaged people who's life goal is it to offend other people. This keeps them from thinking about their own problems.

A note for Resh-Lakish: I know you are an allright guy deep down inside. It is too bad that you think it is cool to join the kindergarten gang and try to offend people. I liked you at first but that's all gone now. Too bad.. i thought you where one of the "good guys".

For now this is all i have to say.
I know not all of you people will agree with me. I invite everybody to discuss this here, only try to keep the language clean.
I will update the bad words filter with more words so most of them will be filtered out.

[klic]

Well, I'm quite new on fibs (december last year), and I met quite some very nice and well behaved people with whom playing is outright fun (just because of the communication going on while playing). But it is definitely true that there's quite a lot of kindergarden behaviour. That's definitely a very good description going on. The shouts you  read while waiting for the next match. It's giving me the intention of a bunch of adolescents who try to impress each other with sexual "jokes" (mostly things which were around when I was starting school, more than 30 years ago) which is just *boring* and *not funny*. Some people also find it obviously just cool to make fun of beginners who ask questions (not happened to me as of now, but overheard). This makes it not a place you want to hang around.
Still, I would it consider a *major* loss if people like you, who invest quite some time, would stop contribute your most valued work or even drop out of fibs. Being that young I don't know much of the history you told me, but if people like you or people I like to play with would leave fibs, this would be the logical conclusion for me, too. Then, fibs would be just a bunch of adolescents (at least in their state of mind) hanging around, and in my oppinion this would a real loss, considering the history of fibs (I'm involved in other contributing work, in open source, so I know a bit what it means that people like you are offering for anybody here).
So yes, definitely, we should group together and try to use policy (i.e. banning) to just keep the fun in for us.

Thanks to all contributors, just to have it said!

Klaus

[alef]

Sadly FIBS has lost many, many, many great people besides just cyan. There is a definitely a serious problem of "bad culture" regularly dominant in the shouts.

A few of the worst offenders are clearly deeply disturbed and probably quite unpleasant in person, but I suspect that many players become more rude because of the atmosphere already there. I think I've fallen guilty of rudeness in the shouts after reading particularly racist and homophobic comments, and that definitely doesn't help the situation.

I recommend people use the gag command more, and it's helpful to others to shout that you're doing so. This is one of the worst punishments as mostly these people are trolling, desperate for attention and reactions. I once had snowflakes leaving me abusive messages for a while because I'd gagged him, clearly if he was that bothered by it then I must have done something right!

Also, if someone is particularly abusive and/or racist then I think it is worth copying the text and sending it to pattib@fibs.com. Especially if she hears from a few people she might act on it -- people do get banned from FIBS sometimes.

[webrunner]

In my experience gagging people does not include shouting or messages. (or is that a feature of one of the fibs clients?)

Alef: I think you are a big man admitting your past mistakes. You have a good point there (that players become more rude because of the existing atmosphere) and that is exactly why i want to try to put a stop to this.

Next time he starts this kind of behaviour i will defenately mail it to Patti.

Klic: thanx 4 these kind words. You clearly understand what i am talking about.

[JonJon]

Webrunner I COMPLETELY understand your concerns, and I agree, wholeheartedly. I just use the blind and gag feature, and forget that these people ever existed. I am not shy about removing a person from one of my tourneys that I have on the gag list.

And thats about the best we can do.

JJ

[socksey]

I went through this (banning people) with Patti long ago.  She just won't ban people unless the person gets abusive with her, personally.  She will tell you to use gag command.  Period.  In only three cases in as long as I have been on Fibs, has Patti banned anyone.  In two of those cases, it was rumored the persons were abusive to Patti during a warning from her, so she has gone as far as warning, at least, on anothers account.  

None of the interfaces I have used gags in shout though.  I am told that Javafibs does.  I haven't been able to use Javafibs on either of my computers yet, in order to find out.

Many times, I have turned shouts off because they are disturbing to me.  I find this is a punishment to myself, rather than to the abuser.  I, then, cannot see good shouts as well.

In the case of zyxcha, I think he should be banned from Fibs.  He is almost always offensive to someone.  A week or so ago, he gagged me.  I didn't know he had done this until I tried to warn him that a 9 year old girl was the one he was being abusive to in shout (she had shouted to him to shut up, and called him an idiot).  LOL  I asked someone else to tell him who he was shouting at, and he did clean up his act for a short while that day.

I almost left Fibs over vqs and his abuse to me.  I see there is a double standard here.  Abusers aren't treated the same by everyone.  It seems that some TD's only ban when it is personal.  Since all TD's experience some of the same abuse, I think we should make some sort of rules for guidance.  I don't think an attack on one TD should be treated lightly by the others.  I think we should all stick together and agree on the same standards.  We need a private forum for this.  

That's what I think.   -_-  

socksey    

[Tomawaky]

First, yes cyan miss me  
Second, yes we are all agree against those kind of behaviour
Third, I am not really disturbed from those guys and have choosen to ignore them
(It's maybe more easy for me   with my poor english)

Fourth, I have met very many pleasant people on Fibs and hope to go on for long    

[diane]

My first comment on this topic - is please please please dont leave us webrunner - you do such good work - and I think the majority of fibs players appreciate it!!  (Give or take the new improved cheeky bots!!).

Yes - Javafibs does block out shouts from gagged players - and i use it sometimes.  It leaves you with half a conversation though - and that can be more annoying than seeing the whole thing - so is not a satisfactory arrangement - also does not help with the likes of resh - who regularly changes his nick - and you get him all over again.  It is certinly an attention seeking tool from those responsible - and as such i simply refuse to ever ever talk to these individuals - even to complain.  Like socksey - I have turned off the shouts to avoid some particularly disturbing material - but then you lose the good stuff too - found out a lot of helpful info through shouts - from good users such as Alef, and now the tourneybot uses shouts - and i dont want to miss those calls!!  Why should I have to restrict my use of this server because we have some emotionally retarded fools amongst us.  It is not enough to say there is nothing to be done - Im no computer bod - but feel sure there must be solutions - and banning all the kindergarden gang from the bots now would make em sit up - since im sure that is how they boost their all important ratings - and with repbot use - if people refuse to play they have no reason to be here (i am also in favour of a decaying rating - so they cannot sit proudly upon an impressive rating).
There are lots of little things we could do - which would make it harder to be the arrogant loud mouths they are - Biggles is a major offender - but yet is allowed to play in fibs league.  These little things should be used - with an incentive of replacing perks as rewards if their behaviour improves.  I try never to use foul language on here- and dont think i ever have in shouts - only in private chat - where i know it wont offend,  yet i have had much bad language used against me.  I am quite good at ignoring schoolground behaviour - but really really wish i didnt have to - and sometimes - as Alef mentions - the racist and homophobic stuff does upset me deeply.  I am also aware that it is highly innapropraite for the children on here at times. After a particularly upsetting afternoon in shouts where a couple of idiots - egged on by csg - were extemely offensive to santa - i had the greatest revenge.  whilst i did not comment at the time - since this simply added to their enjoyment - i had one approach me for help with java later that day - guess how much help they got !! And it was a good oppotunity to point out precisely why i would not help them.
I think this is a great site with many great people - and i look forward to meeting the people i have befreinded in person in the future - i think the site needs a little extra in the way of running to stop this persistent offending - lets do it    

[webrunner]

Burper, i have to disagree with you on this.
The passive attitude is getting us nowhere and things keep getting worse.
And as socksey and Diane pointed out.. gagging is not the solution.

I think i will start sending emails with chatlogs to Patti and try to get some reason in these guys that way. :evil:

Don't worry.. i am not gone just yet.
The positive response (on wich i anticipated) are appreciated.  

[kevins_back]

I am a newbie, and I noticed the shouting in question, and just figured that that WAS the culture that dominated the fibs environment. I found it pathetic but the service provided by fibs is really so good i just try to ignore it.

But u cant can u, EVERY DAY its the same racist, juvenile, sexist(not the lighter side), boring, abusive, hatefull stuff!  I was just watching them 'discuss' the jewishness of Woopi and sleeping with someones daughter in the back seat of someones car. might be fun on an adult sex board but of course totally inappropriate on this board.

Sometimes i'll see someone actually asking an appropriate question in the shout box, like how to join a tourney or something.  And they get lost in the garbage pouring out of these offenders heads. I try to throw them a lifeline when I can but its a small float in a big tide of sometimes really nasty chum.

I was amused to see burper chiming in here since he or she is often right in the middle of the action in question, like in todays chat.

I will say this, this problem is not unique to fibs. i have seen it on countless other chat areas around the web.  Non-adult oriented sites being coopted by these kids for their prurient fantasies.

I think the offenders should be cleaned out! kick em off. everytime the show up under new names kick em off. Nobody will miss them.

Yes each individual member could block them and deal with them in their own way but that won't change the culture that is projected to the public when they visit to play the occasional game.  The regulars here have evidently been accomodating this situation for a while and thats their decision.

But I must say it is a little dark in the playing parlor.

[webrunner]

Kevins_back , the problem is that we can't kick people.
There is only one person who can do that and she hasn't shown much interest in doing so until now.
But i have to be fair and say i haven't complained to her yet. Nor, do i think, have a lot of others.

I was just playing and looked at the shouts you are referring to. I have to say that they where reasonably innocent compared to what was shouted yesterday. But then again.. maybe i am getting used to all the profound language.

I certainly hope not though.

 

[webrunner]

Burper and all others.
As i said in my post, i ALMOST left. But then i thought about all the positive things.
I must say, with the losing streak i'm in right now they where hard to find

But enough jokes...

Burper, i respect you and your input and motivation and all that you have done for fibs. I have been on fibs almost 10 years now (under a different name, mostly just playing and lurking), so i know what happened in the past and what it was like a long time ago.

I agree that the community is picking up and i know the important part you, MadMatt (TB)  and the fibsboard are playing in that. But i also know that there are a few people that are trying to destroy all that and that the level of profanities on fibs have never been as high as they are now.

For me it's all or nothing now. I don't want this to be a family BG server, but some level of civilisation isn't much to ask, is it?
This has nothing to do with thick skin and all that. I for one have quite a thick skin.. but this was just verbal abuse. Even in the Netherlands i could have sued someone telling me those things in real life. This is not civilized behaviour, it is just plain childish namecalling.
My first intent would not be to kick him off as you call it, but to just let him know that this is not appreciated. That is why i banned him from the bots and i still suggest a global ban for him.

But hey.. everyone can have their opinion!  <_<

[NIHILIST]

I have read the posts on this topic, and, while I don't necessarily disagree with you, I am curious about a glaring omission in your list of FIBSters behaving badly.

Nowhere do I see any mention of Zorba who picks fights regularly and is as free with insults as anyone you did mention.

Obviously you are free to discuss anyone's bad behavior and deal with it in any manner you choose, but when you intentionally omit one of the worst abusers of courtesy on FIBS, it's hard to take you seriously.

I am as saddened as anyone by Cyan's departure. She's been a friend for years and I miss her presence on FIBS.


Bob

[webrunner]

Hi Bob,

Thanks for your reaction.

It shows character to make a response here like you did, even though we haven't exactly been friendly to one another.

I didn't intentionally leave out someone.
I just never had any bad experiences with Zorba.
And besides: there are loads other more people that are rude that i didn't mention as well. But if he does stuff like this i will surely point out to him that i (and others) don't like this.

Also i would like to point out that it is not the fight picking that i dislike, but more the language that is used doing it, the racist and homophobic remarks, etc.

I like a good discussion as the next one, but the things i am talking about aren't even discussions. You probably know what i mean.

Anyway.. i am just hoping that this will make people think before they open their shout screens and start blabbing ...

[diane]

Whilst i agree Zorba does enjoy a rattling debate as much as any - and likes to retaliate to the kindergarden gang - a thing i told him i person i considered a waste of his time and energy - i have yet to see him use any obsence language, or any sexual obscenties.  Whilst his input is childish at times - it is not something i would object to a child of any age reading - and nor do i find it upsetting or disturbing.  That falls into the category 'the anarchy that is fibs' - the freedom to an opinion - and the right to state it and argue it through - it is not a mere litany of obscentities.

[jinnate]

and now for the voice of (t)reason.

before we begin, some codes
z=zyxtcba
kg=kindergarden gang
kbg=kingdergarden gang behavior

i really enjoy listening to z. i am roflmao every time he's on. i did not agree with the global tourneybot ban and have unbanned him. i have banned him from fridays3 tourneys, as that is kari's tourney anyway, and as kari is the one who gave him the global ban.

in my opinion, until z, roscoe, or anyone does something really crappy in the tourney, what goes on in the shout room doesn't matter if they want to enter my tourney. and, i could be wrong, but in re-reading what madmatt had to say about banning, global bans are to be used only when a player after repeated tourney muckups.

and if they were to do something really crap repeatedly in my tourney, then i'd ban them from MY tourneys. i wouldn't arbitrarily decide for the whole TB TD community that that player shouldn't play in any tourney. i can't tell you how pissed i am that kari decided to do that as if i didn't have a say in the matter. how dare you decide that for me? you don't get to decide that for me. and after you had an argument with him? do you know how you sound? he called me names so i globally banned him from all tourneys? he was laughing at your decision for a reason. to my knowledge, he doesn't even play in tourneys.

for webrunner to ban him from bots. well, at first, i thought that was stupid, too, but reading all that's been written, i've changed my opinion. i think you have a perfect right to own that your work isn't going to be used for some idiot who keeps flaming you and creating a hostile environment for you.

and for everyone to be upset. well, i thought that was overwrought at first too, but reading all that's been written, i get a better picture of where you're coming from. you've been dealing with this for years, quietly employing methods that lessen the experience of fibs fun for you, and now you've just had enough.

i don't want to play fibs without diane, burper, yes, even kari. it's obvious that your care makes fibs the place i want to be. i guess i just want to be able to laugh at z and not have it hurt anyone.

so i'm glad to read burper say something about a local proxy with rooms. (btw, macfibs gags shouts. but you're right, you miss part of the experience. it's not fun.) and emailing patti seems to me to be a good idea. i mean, if 20-50 people are sending her emails about a person... hey, she could ban 20-50 people, but wouldn't it be easier to ban 1 or 2? and this still doesn't sound like it really solves the problem.

i don't know what the solution is.  

[JonJon]

Just to add a bit to think about on this subject...

There is such a thing as verbal and emotional abuse. These people who think they are being funny or garnering attention for themselves by being abusive to other people, need to be met face to face, in real life, and be shown what it means to have ones ass kicked real good for running off at the mouth. The internet is wonderful in so many ways, but one of its drawbacks is that it allows wimpy little boys a venue to be nasty to people when they know they never could pull it off in real life.

It is sad that people behave like this when given the mask of anonymity.

And...calling people gay or making racial or ethinic slurs is never funny. People who think it is funny need to pull their heads out of their asses and see the bigger picture.

JJ

[jinnate]

i keep going back to how i felt that first day as TD, and diane told me she tried to keep roscoe off my back and i hadn't even noticed he was talking, but i went back and read the shouts and was simply horrified. i mean the things he'd said to diane were just beyond the pale. and i keep telling myself that that's what it's like for webrunner, diane and others, that's how they feel on a minute-by-minute basis at fibs.

the thing that gets me is that roscoe is not banned from my tourneys and won't be until he does something in the tourney to muck up. hell, LILY's not banned from my tourneys. hell, nobody's banned from my tourneys (yet). so to ban someone who hasn't even played?

and i get that you want to exact consequences for behavior, i just feel like there's a less personal way to do this. creating rooms in a local proxy, talking to patti, emailing patti, suggesting decaying fibs ratings, and others, i like these because they speak directly to the behavior you want to change, they speak directly to the causes of the behavior. but a global ban on someone who never plays tourneys? i'm not getting how that's helping. and i see that it limits my fun on fibs.  

[lewscannon]

Well, I'd like to speak on behalf of all the 12 year olds that are supposed corrupted here. How else can we learn what mommy and daddy are up to when they're out and leave us in front of the computer for hours on end? I get tired of the endless beastiality sites and want to talk to someone my own age. It's kinda like staying up late and seeing what the grownups at the party are talking about, only without stealing bottles of booze from behind the bar. When I grow up I wanna be like Uncle Nihi!

[don]

I was giving half an eye to shouts on FIBS this afternoon when the amazing term, "dildiane" caught my eye.  I scrolled up, and it turns out Biggles was flaming someone named "diane" about her posts on FIBSboard.com.  I came here and checked it out.

Biggles' rants on this occasion were typical, and they make a point about shouts on FIBS:  The dog pack consists of 3-4 leaders and perhaps a dozen others.  When they are defecating with their keyboards, it doesn't matter if you object or argue.  Typically, it's a 5:1 typing contest, and in my experience, where I've had to think about what I say and they are free to excercise their sticky fingers typing the things they never dared to say in a seventh grade locker room, you are just providing entertainment for the kiddies.  Truth is something I concern myself with -- not them.

So this is what's funny or pathetic:  Biggles was whining because diane wouldn't defend herself in shouts, with Biggles' buds ready to flame her to cinders; and when I checked out this forum, I didn't see a single word from Biggles.  I'm sure this'll be fertilizer for Biggles' next tirade, so I'd ask him to quote this:  "Biggles, why don't you have the courage to respond when you don't have your backups?  Reply to diane's words on FIBSboard.com ON FIBSboard.com"!

As for the problem of shouts, if they are a problem, it has been correctly identified here that only Patti or marvin can do something about it.  marvin won't, and Patti is usually only concerned with hassles that involve her.  She doesn't want to do anything.  (But she is a bit inconsistent, and will respond in a picque with totally inconsistent actions.)   My attitude toward Patti is mixed:  Once I thought she was my friend, but she has denied certain things in conversations as if they never happened; I always respect her for her work keeping FIBS up and running; I have argued with her about some of her arbitrary actions against a few users and been punished for using facts to point out inconsistencies in her actions.

The fact is, I've been on FIBS for 12 years, it's my favorite place to play BG, and I can't leave because if I did, there'd be nobody to point out some of the egregious lies of some of the top-rated and most popular jerks there.  I have some changes I'd make, but I'm there still....

--
don