FIBS Board backgammon forum

in another thread, Re: Disgruntled.......again, i introduced the topic of using clocks in backgammon .. stiefnu replied with a great description of how backgammon clocks work in tournament play .. rather than seeing a potentially interesting topic become lost in a thread by another name, i am snipping the clock related quotes below to start this new thread on backgammon clocks

Quote from: sixty_something on January 18, 2009, 10:02:54 PM
... , the issue of time in face-to-face major backgammon tournaments is a hot one nationally .. some major tournaments are beginning to use clocks in tournament matches as has been the custom in chess for decades .. i'm not sure exactly how clocks work in backgammon, but the issue has been discussed at length in other forums

for example, an interesting thread was passed my way recently by the director of the Houston Backgammon Club describing several instances of time issues during the three or four days of play in the recent New York Metro Open, one of the major American tourneys .. see the top article in an interesting, entertaining, and enlightening thread titled Homeless man camps out at NY Metro Open .. in addition to being a good read, it will provide a good chuckle

Quote from: stiefnu on January 19, 2009, 11:44:30 AM
At Bristol Backgammon http://www.bristol-backgammon.org/ we started using clocks after Ian Tarr, our TD, was suddenly faced with having to use one for the first time in the most important match of his life, the final of the British Open in 2007 (which he went on to lose). We play a series of monthly Clock Tournaments. For a 7 point match, the clock is set up so that each player is allowed 14 minutes total match allowance with a 12 second delay per move. Only one pair of dice is used. The clock has either a rocker switch or stop buttons on either side. Play is commenced with the clock paused as each player rolls one die, to determine who is to move first. The clock is then started, so that time is counting down against the opening player, who then has 12 seconds in which to make their move. Having moved, or offered the cube, they set the other side of the clock running, which as in a chess clock, stops their side and starts their opponent's. Only if you takes longer than 12 seconds to make your move does your 14 minute match allowance get reduced. At the end of a game, the clock is again paused, while the board is reset. Play may also be paused mid-game for corrections or discussions about illegal moves. It takes a while to get used to not picking up the dice to signify the completion of your move but hitting the clock.

Since we started using clocks in late 2007, only one player has lost a match by being timed out on this time allowance, at which point their clock makes a beeping noise. Typically, there are many minutes left unused. 12 seconds is usually more than enough time to pick up the dice, roll, move and hit the clock. If you need to take longer, because the position is complex or a cube decision is difficult, then the match allowance starts ticking away. This is alarming at first. I suspect that some rash decisions are sometimes made as a result, though fewer now, as we get used to the discipline. It helps to do one's pip counting on your opponent's time, as far as possible.

We also sometimes play a blitz version, 5 point matches with just 2 minutes match allowance and a 10 second delay. This is a much less relaxed affair, which personally I do not enjoy much, as it adds too much stress to what is, after all, supposed to be fun.

in that same thread, garp_02 asked the important question relevant to FIBS which seems like a good idea to open for discussion

Quote from: garp_02 on January 19, 2009, 12:53:34 PM
Would it be possible to incorporate such a timer into Fibs? Maybe with a slightly longer time allowance per move.

I know it happens on many other online sites and certainly cuts down on the very slow or those who wish to use 'assistance'.

I'm not sure whether with the seemingly erratic behaviour of the FIBS server, it wuold be possible though.

garp

so, does anyone else have any clock feedback, ideas on usage, or anything else to contribute on this topic?

Quote from: garp_02 on January 19, 2009, 12:53:34 PM
Maybe with a slightly longer time allowance per move.

Clocks are built into the play at VogClub (a backgammon site with a selection of Russian muppets and Russian goodfellows ). The settings there are 2 minutes for the  match and 6 seconds bonus. That's not just not "slightly longer" but considerably less than live play but they're still very workable settings. This difference comes about because there's no time wasted with the physical aspects of play, such as rolling dice, moving an arm to the clock, etc. You do have to move the pieces but this is still typically quicker than the physical equivalent, especially if you choose a fast animation speed. Pip counts are automatic, of course. People very often move within the 6 seconds and it's common to end a match with more time than you started. There are time outs, though, especially if you are chatting (I lost a final that way, but I enjoyed the chat ). Tournament matches all use clocks but with friendlies it's optional and rarely used.

Should a player be penalised because the Internet has suddenly got a block between them and Fibs? Even when there are no blocks, one player might be 40ms away from the server and another 160ms. This is "lag" and the millisecond delays are per message and can add up.

The lag issue is handled well at Vog. Vog displays a coloured bar next to each player's name showing the lag between the player and the server. This lag is taken into account in the clocks so that each player is treated as fairly as possible. A green bar shows a decent connection, yellow is somewhat slow and red means that the connection is very slow and may be having difficulties. The colours, and therefore the lag, can change a lot even during a match. Seeing red is not a prompt for annoyance but a cue to be patient. It's also a warning that the player may get cut off. Players are allowed 5 minutes to get back before forfeiting. They also get an allowance of three line drops before they forfeit.

(Occasionally there are bad sports who will cut their connection when they're about to lose, just to force their opponent to wait for the 5 minutes. Much more rarely there's the really bad sport who will wait until their game clock is down to scant seconds, cut the line, will reconnect just before they forfeit, resume the match, cut their line again and then repeat until they forfeit on the third line drop. They get the dubious pleasure of being an #ss#o## for up to 20 minutes!)

Another aspect of connection handling is that the clocks are only ticking while the client and server are in active communication so if the server rolls the dice and the client doesn't get the message for seconds or tens of seconds the clock doesn't go down. That's as it should be because Internet vagiaries are beyond the control of the players.

Quote
Would it be possible to incorporate such a timer into Fibs?

Nothing can be incorporated into Fibs but many things can be bolted onto the system. Clocks would therefore have to be added to clients. These would have to implement an agreed protocol for communicating the timing information between themselves using chat messages and a timeout would need the clients to force a resignation and accept. I think it would be very difficult to get this implemented. The lag issues mentioned above would be an even bigger challenge to implement.

Quote from: playBunny on January 19, 2009, 07:18:18 PM
Clocks are built into the play at VogClub (a backgammon site with a selection of Russian muppets and Russian goodfellows ).

The Russian muppets comment refers to the source thread.

Quote from: garp_02 on January 19, 2009, 12:53:34 PM
Would it be possible to incorporate such a timer into Fibs? Maybe with a slightly longer time allowance per move.

I do not think FIBS could support that.

If done by a bot, then there would have to be a bot logged in for each timed match since
you can only watch one game at a time.

Changing the fibs code would be a long term change that I think could not happen in the near future.

tom

Quote from: playBunny on January 19, 2009, 07:18:18 PM
Nothing can be incorporated into Fibs but many things can be bolted onto the system. Clocks would therefore have to be added to clients. These would have to implement an agreed protocol for communicating the timing information between themselves using chat messages and a timeout would need the clients to force a resignation and accept. I think it would be very difficult to get this implemented. The lag issues mentioned above would be an even bigger challenge to implement.

Good point and maybe the clients could use something like TourneyBot to be an impartial 3rd party?

The protocol could be some normal looking tourneybot commands that even current players could use
(since we had a shortage of client developers  )

this concept needs more discussion

tom

Just a small aside on the 'Russian muppet' comment. No offence intended to our Russian colleagues - just so happened that the particular muppet in question was Russian........could equally easily have been a Scottish, American, Turkish etc etc muppet