thx pck welcome all to Ideas Science and Philosophy --- "concept formation and elucidation" .....> the philosophy/physiology/ structure and function of a fibster or fibsboarder! this is a space set aside for more esoteric meanderings

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i came in on a fibs discussion about brain function thought and consciousness

i was interested when the discussion turned to anaesthesia, and consciousness

(would like also to look at what inim was saying about computers too --- see complete attached shout copy paste, and what fact was saying too
maybe they can appear in seperate future topics here?

"subconscious functions may continue?

"factotum shouts: how do you know stog


factotum shouts: surely, no study is possible

pck shouts: he's still breathing?
inim shouts: there are anesthetics which can take out that functionality too, stog. the right dose to prevent that is the whole art

You shout: are there any hypnotic recall studies of folks who have undergone anaesthesia?

inim shouts: i wonder if there were none, but i have no source at hand

pck shouts: you're talking brain activity, not consciousness here. you're not answering the question "what is c" but "how to take away c"

You shout: also to further complicate your discussions-- we hold emotions in our structure and will 'bury' toxic past as we do real toxins in fat tissue -- right down to bone core

You shout: thus fasting can be dangerous if it releases real poiasons from adipose tissue
pck shouts: we do not hold emotions in our structure, that is a conceptual confusion

You shout: or heavy metal release stored in bone
pck shouts: emotins have no place, they are not things

pck shouts: emotins have no place, they are not things
DannyGall logs in.
factotum shouts: brain chemestry is obviously a central issue to any discussion of c
You shout: yes they are  pck

pck shouts: anger at losing a match takes place in front of my computer, not inside my brain

You shout: i deal with it in my patients on a daily basis
You shout: using structural therapies

pck shouts: stog, by structure you mean brain structure?
You shout: hence tearful treatment reactions and recall of long buried memories in people after physical treatment

You shout: there is a an element of truth to the eurythmic memory in cells

pck shouts: our cells give us the ability to memorize, but there are no memories stored in our cells

pck shouts: just like there is no "cuckoo" sound stored inside of a cuckoo clock

You shout: where is the brain in the cell?
you shout: at what level do we want to see memory? in dna?
pck shouts: i don't understand stog

You shout: and that the brain has ,as part of its constituent mechanism, a CSF that eventually may permeate  all cells

(CSF = cerebrospinalfluid)

You shout: and are flushed filtered what appears to be several times a day
You shout: they are filtered intracranially and throughout the spinal chain all the way down towards our tail bone

pck shouts: how is it we have emotions, thoughts, perceptions etc. why do they occur when certain physiological criteria are met? science cannot answer that because these are conceptual questions about the meaning of "feeling", "thinking" etc

You shout: hence the concerns with BSE spreading by consuming carcasses of BSE cattle - its tissue has been possibly affected by the virus, even if the cord or brain is not consumed..(later edit -- >inim says: BSE is not a virus, it is prions -- even more simple than a virus)

You shout: very complex and muti positive and negative feedback system

(inim :inim shouts: not even hard core intel engineers can not predict concrete execution behaviour of program sequences anymore
inim shouts: see, we can use this CPU example
inim shouts: man created a damn fucking machine with a few billion simple transistors

pck shouts: is my CPU "conscious" because humans no longer can fully grasp the inner workings of it? of course not
tulp drops connection.
You shout: the difference is that there is a self healing component to our structure and cells........

im trying to edit a post using snippets copy/pasting but it is difficult
especially as there is often 2 or 3 threads/discussions at once with overlap and a sort of conversational  lag
pck says: not easy to maintain flow of content i gather

ut it may offer a way of connecting some of discussion threads from fibs shouts to a more considered discussion in the ISP board

i am considering pasting this part of today's public shoutin complete unedited form below, but don't want to offend/annoy anyone -- so if you want it or any part editing removing == please say..

i have edited a few of my comments for example

"subconscious functions  continue?
became
"subconscious functions may continue?

and you might like to do the same hence the existence of this board...

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i 'accept' the 'inherent life force within the living cell' principle as it fits what i see every day... discuss

pck says: would you agree that an emotion is distinct (not independent) from the physiological processes which accompany it?
You tell pck: hi there
pck says: hi
You tell pck: not sure thinking
pck says: lol
pck says: my point is that you do not get information about what "walking" means by dissecting legs
You tell pck: all i do knowis that we seem to structurally show our emotions day to day and can store consciously or unconsciously previous stuff
pck says: i agree if "store" is not taken too literally here
You tell pck: no indeed
You tell pck: the legs bit
pck says: of course you can dissect it and find out more about what happens when "walking" happens
You tell pck: i find it fascinating that heavy metals are buried deep in our system
You tell pck: first in adipose then bone
pck says: yews physiological processes are very interesting indeed
You tell pck: and that we do the same with painful experience
You tell pck: happy stufff too
pck says: but to investigate theri relation to mental processes is part the job of cience part the job of philosophy
You tell pck: i always subscribe to pascal's copout on philosophy
pck says: iused to too but was never happy with it
You tell pck: to take no heed of philosophy is truly to philosophise
pck says: nto sure if that gets me any further
You tell pck: i did study anatomy and physiology
You tell pck: but love learning as i go..
pck says: physics (aborted), math and philosophy here
You tell pck: and the body/mind interelationship is incredible
pck says: yes
pck says: very difficult stuff
pck says: i can recommend "philosophical foundations of neuroscience" by bennett and hacker , a collaboration between a leading neuroscientist and a philosoher
You tell pck: i 'accept' the 'inherent life force within the living cell' princople as it fits what i see every day
You tell pck: sounds great thx
pck says: i don't object to terms such as "life force" as long as they are not taken too literally
pck says: if one can put them to good use, by all means one should use it
pck says: them
You tell pck: it is why i wasnt keen on studying at a college where dissections were used
You tell pck: dead tissue is just that
pck says:
You tell pck: my partner tho said she learnt a lot by actually seeing the size of the sciatic nerve
You tell pck: we cannot resurrect a dead cell
pck says: i'm sure
pck says: i'm sure she leaned a lot i mean
pck says: but i believe that when we see the brain in action we do not see thinking
pck says: for that is not how the term is used normally
pck says: it is only used like that in the neuroscientific lab
pck says: our ancestors knew nothing about thinking being connected to brain processes
pck says: surely they used the term "thinking" sensibly still
You tell pck: we cannot introduce life - once the fungal decay that was a part of that cell when living, kicks in (i agree we can't see thinking by watching the the brain
You tell pck: that is the 'life force' -- it actually contains the afer life the decay
pck says: ok i think i understand what you were about earlier better now
pck says: that is indeed a scientific concept
You tell pck: is there any literature on it you know of
You tell pck: i liked rene dubos - man adaptting
You tell pck: but i think that is a bit different
pck says: i'm only concerned with the conceptual side of mental phenomena i'm afraid. bennett and hacker has some physiology though

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we won't be copy pasting in future - this was just to start us off with an ideas area to include science, physiology philosophy etc

people's references and links can be accessed at a future date

when u make a post on the forum it is a little more considered and you can edit for a while unlike overlapping instant public shouts

do let us know if you want anything removing or editing thx