permagag

[don]

Sigh I just got a message from a FIBS user regarding a NACCI/bracket match we have to play...

From XXXXX (Apr 02 06:15 PST): I see you accidently reported our match as won, it is reset now and I would appreciate it if you would make a more concerted effort to play at a time mutaully convenient.  Each time that is good for both of us - you sign up for a tourney, so I have played other league matches and waited for you to be free.  I havent hassled you whilst you played those tournaments, because there is no time limit on this match - it will wait a year if need be.  Since you do seem keen to play sooner, rather than later though, I shall watch for you and if you arent signed up for a tourney, invite you. I wont play an 11 point match with anyone after midnight UK time, and I wont play during a working shift (you will know when they are, because I am not logged in).  I want to play this 11 point match - that is why I signed up for this tournament and I expect you do too - and neither of us would want to play at a time that is unsuitable for the other, I am sure.  Hopefully this message wont truncate on telnet and yo

This is a perfect example of why Java FIBS should emulate behavior as specified in the FIBS CLIP protocol.  I've left many messages and used FIBS' tell for the user in question here, and received no replies.  In fact Java FIBS' permagag violates the established protocol in that it gives no reply like:  *user* has gagged you.

All I get is that my message or tell was delivered to a Java FIBS client, and, in this case, flames in shouts from the user usually including the term, "permagag".  If you want a reason for why Java FIBS should conform to the FIBS/CLIP protocol, this is it, a tourney match!

Of course this is abuse of Java FIBS' features by the user who is dodging the match, but there is no reason for it if the programmers of Java FIBS would simply add a message or make use of the FIBS' gag function.

While I'm at it, Java FIBS's permagag lets users automatically blind those playing in a tournament, which is a lack of courtesy at the least.  Reasonable play demands that opponents are allowed to watch, Java FIBS makes rudeness a click away.

--
don

PS ... Everything in the quote is probably a lie from the user, I've made efforts over 1.7 week to play at many times, and have no clue if ANY of my messages ever got through, except for the permagag flames from the user...  The quoted reaction only happened after I claimed a win on the advice of the owner of the site, in order to start a "dispute" process.

[cthulhu]

The permagag feature may receive some more settings so the user can customize the behaviour a little better. In a later version, but it will never by default give a message that you have been gagged.

I think you should pursue the tourney problem with the tourney bot programmers. They should tunnel messages to the players involved which would solve several problems with people gagging and refusing to play. If they do, they can easily see who has been trying to actually play their games since they can log the text which is tunneled.

> Tell tourneybot msg <opponent> I can play anytime during weekdays. Please give me a day and time.

Message from tourneybot: Don says: I can play anytime during weekdays.  Please give me a day and time.

[Tom]

> Tell tourneybot msg <opponent> I can play anytime during weekdays. Please give me a day and time.

Message from tourneybot: Don says: I can play anytime during weekdays.  Please give me a day and time.

That Nacci tourneys are not done with tourneybot... nice try!

[cthulhu]

I'd suggest good old fashion email then. A valid email address should be obligatory for tourney members. 

[don]

Email would be OK, but the last time I used this user's email for a match-time request, all that resulted was a change of email and some flames in shouts.

Team-league had a potentially good system: Monitored blind emails, but the moderators never responded to legitimate requests for forfeits.

--
don

[don]

We already know that JavaFIBS ignores the specified FIBS protocol regarding gag (FIBS/CLIP/) and the dreaded permagag.  Here's a chat from inim, advocate of JavaFIBS, about another feature of FIBS. He thinks all GUIs, hence all users, have access to a computerized pipcounter even when they deny use of the FIBS' pipcounter by setting "toggle allowpip" to off, for their opponents! It clearly shows that at least one developer of JavaFIBS cares nothing about adhering to any concept of open source programming of FIBS' GUIs:

> You shout: speaking of pips, I'd like to know if there's some reason I don't know of why allowing FIBS' pipcounter during tourneys should NOT be allowed.
RickrInSF shouts: how can that be prevented don?
> You shout: It appears to be an issue with people like donzaemon, souptree, diane...
RickrInSF shouts: pip counting is not on the server, it is on the client
> You shout: you can turn it off for those who don't have a GUI that provides it, rick.
> You shout: It's also on the server, and a toggle, Rick.
RickrInSF shouts: well, never mind, donzaemon? really, be serious
RickrInSF shouts: but cannot be prevented (cuz it's on the client
RickrInSF shouts: therefor, why try?
> You shout: It can be prevented if your opponent does NOT have a client that counts
RickrInSF shouts: so, only allow certain versions of certain programs?
> You shout: No rick, I'm saying that, in tourneys, the FIBS pipcounter should be required since it is impossible to tell if both players have access to a pipcounter.
> You shout: I'm just wondering if there's some reason I have not considered for people like donzaemon, NIHo, zyxtcba, souptree and diane, for example, to object to a requirement that the FIBS' pipcount be allowed during electronic tourneys here.
RickrInSF shouts: because calculating pipcount by head takes practice, and they have allready practiced?
inim shouts: don, stop lamenting about client capabilities
inim shouts: there is nothing that can be "forbidden" on the client side
> You shout: Simple query inim, nothing to do with clients except fair.
inim shouts: javafibs does the pip count client side, and my guess is all others do too
inim shouts: that server flag is moot
inim shouts: javafibs doesn't even read it
inim shouts: if you play online, expect nothing short of a full gnubg facing you, if that is a problem for you, don't play online
inim shouts: my personal consequence is not to play for money online
inim shouts: and that#s it
> You shout: So you are saying, inim, that it's OK in a tourney if you are a javaFIBS user to get an auto-pipcount, and toggle allowpip on FIBS so that your opponent may not be able to do the same?
inim shouts: yes, that's fine
> You shout: Thanks inim, you've supported my thesis.
inim shouts: whatever your thesis was
inim shouts: point is that there is no client side control for fibs, and your lamenting won't create one
inim shouts: point even is there is no client side control for ANY online game server, albeit cheating in fibs is particularily easy
> You shout: My thesis is, inim, that since it's impossible to enforce a rule that pipcounters are not used, FIBS' pipcount should be "on" for tourneys.
inim shouts: as said, clients don't even read that flag
inim shouts: so set it to any value you like
> You shout: What about clients that don't provide a local pipcount, inim?
inim shouts: i don't care what other clients do, mine does
inim shouts: but my client also supports gnubg, hehe
> You shout: ah, always nice to talk "logic" with inim.  I suspect I'm about to be permagagged for 24 hours or more by this illiterate bozo.
inim shouts: don, there is no "logic" in here, just enforceablility
> You shout: inim, in a tourney, do you think it fair for one person to have access to pipcounts and deny the same to opponent?
inim shouts: it doesn't matter what you consider fair, only what is technically possible
inim shouts: enforcing any restriction on clients is not
inim shouts: no, how so?
inim shouts: there is no way to control
inim shouts: or observe
> You shout: Uh, if I ask for a pipcount, and FIBS won't give it to me, it tells me that my opponent has it turned off, inim.  Then I can simply say he is not following the rules of the tourney.
inim shouts: don, you are boring
inim shouts: repeating the impossible doesn't make it viable
> You shout: I'm guessing that it's a language problem that is making you look either obtuse or stupid, inim.  If you have anything serious to say about "toggle allowpip", please contribute your thoughts to http://www.fibsboard.com/using-backgammon-software/toggle-allowpip-t1886.0.html;msg14271;topicseen#new
inim shouts: the problem is in the word "you can say"
inim shouts: you simply can NOT say
inim shouts: as said, toggle allowpip is ignored by all clients, it's an outdated and unused server feature
inim shouts: all i am aware of
inim shouts: what is a root client?
> You shout: In OO, inim, it's the basics
inim shouts: don, you talk gibberish
inim shouts: what the #### TCP/IP has to do with that now?
inim shouts: beside dropping words you hardly understand, what is your point?
inim shouts: name me any way to enforce anything client side, or stfu
resh_lakish shouts: ##### slap him with your mouse inim
> You shout: Are you saying that you know of a client that connnects to FIBS in some other manner than Telnet, inim, or gets I/O that is not specified by the FIBS Client interface?
inim shouts: you confuse ISO/OSI layers here, don
inim shouts: we are at the application layer
inim shouts: you are on layers 3 and 4
inim shouts: i am on 7
inim shouts: you can enforce nothing on layer 7
> You shout: Do all users of FIBS have as sophisticate a GUI as you, inim?
inim shouts: layer 3 is irrelevant, and layer 4 is ignored
inim shouts: i don't care for all clients
inim shouts: i just say it can not be enforced
inim shouts: haven't seen you saying anything that invalidates that claim yet
> You shout: Thanks for your input, inim, making my point.  Enjoy.
inim shouts: you are getting senile, don

For a reasonable discussion on the FIBS' pipcounter and tournaments, try PIPS/TOURNEYS.

--

don

[Tom]

Here's a chat from inim, advocate of JavaFIBS, about another feature of FIBS. He thinks all GUIs, hence all users, have access to a computerized pipcounter even when they deny use of the FIBS' pipcounter by setting "toggle allowpip" to off, for their opponents! It clearly shows that at least one developer of JavaFIBS cares nothing about adhering to any concept of open source programming of FIBS' GUIs:

My God don, get real here.

what is the point of backing someone into a corner and then posting this crap?

I would say that if JF automatically set pips OFF and a majority of players did not have a pip counting client and JF developers refused to change the pip setting you might have something to b#t#h about...

tom