Today's reasons that I hate RepBot

[Patti]

This is from someone who sent me mail basically saying, "Waaaaa!  He said mean things to me then trashed my reputation in repbot!  Fix it!  Waaaaaa!

"and i did not know repbot was not part of fibs !"

In general, I think repbot does a really bad job of telling people that it's an independent third-party project, and client integration probably hasn't helped that one bit.

And then I discovered that the whiner had created multiple accounts and used them to trash the guy he was bitching to me about.  RepBot's "accept complaints from anyone" functionality pretty much guarantees that some people will abuse FIBS in this manner.

[burper]

Honestly, why don't you pull the plug on RepBot?
I said honestly.

I want to hear you say that it isn't much of a problem for you one more time

RepBot says: RepBot's reputation is 297642(GOOD) (no saved games)

[don]

You might let Evan McLean in on the separation of FIBS and RepBot, Patti. 
The FIBS Client Protocol Detailed Specification section on RepBot makes it appear an accepted part of the FIBS package.

--
don

[burper]

Patti shouts: I remember life before RepBot, and it was no worse for me.

burper shouts: lol

[Patti]

Good point, don.  I just took the repbot information off of that page.

[burper]

You might let Evan McLean in on the separation of FIBS and RepBot, Patti. 
The FIBS Client Protocol Detailed Specification section on RepBot makes it appear an accepted part of the FIBS package.

--
don

Yes, I suggested that to Evan. I also think most client coders believe in integrating repbot into their ui's.
Most fibs users think that the client program they are running *is* fibs.

[burper]

Patti shouts: OK, I've removed the repbot info from the clip specification.  Time for me to go home.

Wow, she really fears this thing.

[don]

Most of your objections to RepBot could be handled, Patti, if the owner of Repbot would take responsibility for it.  It's a useful, if flawed tool.  There are many posts here from the owner, refusing to deal with them.

--
don

[Patti]

RepBot is almost a good tool, and a lot of my objections to it could be solved with a couple of changes:

- Make it *really clear* that it's not part of FIBS and not my problem
- Remove the ability to gang up on someone, and remove incentives for system abuse, by only accepting vouches and complaints if you've started, finished, or resumed a match with an individual within a reasonable period of time

If it wasn't java (a language I really hate working in), I'd snag the source, fix it, and then take over the account.  I'm not enough of a masochist to do that, though.

Oh, and burper... your thinly-veiled goading isn't going to have any sort of effect.

[burper]

Most of your objections to RepBot could be handled, Patti, if the owner of Repbot would take responsibility for it.  It's a useful, if flawed tool.  There are many posts here from the owner, refusing to deal with them.

--
don

I seriously doubt the owner has ever logged in here don, at least I have never seen him in here.

[burper]

RepBot is almost a good tool, and a lot of my objections to it could be solved with a couple of changes:

- Make it *really clear* that it's not part of FIBS and not my problem
- Remove the ability to gang up on someone, and remove incentives for system abuse, by only accepting vouches and complaints if you've started, finished, or resumed a match with an individual within a reasonable period of time

If it wasn't java (a language I really hate working in), I'd snag the source, fix it, and then take over the account.  I'm not enough of a masochist to do that, though.

Interesting. Pay close attention potential coding heroes of fibs:

So if code were offerred to you in an acceptable language, you would host an improved version of repbot?
That is what I hoped from the beginning. Note that I made the original version of repbot with a 10-complaint limit as a partial mitigation to the gang-up problem (the theory being that given a limited number, one would use them with care, and that 10 vouches from experienced players would be adequate protection). The current owner chose to remove that limit.

So Patti, let's say that repbot code in tcl-expect existed (using mysql client to access the backend), you would commit to taking it and hosting it, with whatever tweaks you wanted to make? Are there any other languages acceptable to you?

Oh, and burper... your thinly-veiled goading isn't going to have any sort of effect.

Well, I came close. Now I will see how you gracefully back away from any commitment to host an improved repbot.
One strategy might be to say your language preference was something obscure.
Another might be to start adding all sorts of objectionable terms and conditions.
I'm curious to see your bountiful creativity in action.

[Patti]

Try again, burper.  You missed the comment about not being that much of a masochist.

Perl, python, hell even ruby might be OK.

[burper]

Ahhh, wordsmithing.  How very don of you.
I thought you meant "if it wasn't java", which is what you said. But I should know you don't actually mean what you say. Nice use of the word "might" in your response. We all know that means "won't", or more probably "can't".

That "not coded by me" thing is hard to get over, isn't it?

Now back to our regularly scheduled FIBS. And fibsbored.com

[Patti]

If "not coded by me" was an issue, I wouldn't be running FIBS, would I?

[blitzxz]

RepBot says: RepBot's reputation is 297642(GOOD) (no saved games)

Repbot is mainly problem for new players with little experience (who propably don't even think about complaining repbot). So repbot's reputation is flawed. 

[PolyphonicBrie]

Well I wish Repbot was here right now.  Then I could complain about the user who just dropped before I could bear-off my final piece before I was about to win a match 5-0.

Or, maybe they only dropped because they knew that Repbot wasn't around.

Or, maybe if Repbot was around, I might have known not wasting my time playing him/her in the first place.

Also, re: the situation described by Patti in the OP, I recently had a user create multiple accounts specifically to try and damage my reputation with Repbot.  Hell, it might even be the same guy who complained to Patti.  Whatever... it was a waste of time because Repbot awards/deducts points according to the reputation of the complainer/voucher. The experience of each of these "false" accounts was zero - so no damage was done.  Which is surely how it should be?

I know Repbot's not perfect.  But FIBS is an unhappier place without it.  I hope it comes back soon - I'd like to play a match with some assurance that I'm not playing a habitual dropper.

PB

[Patti]

RepBot can stay if:

- There's no loophole for ganging up on someone
- It is VERY CLEAR that it's not my problem and I'm not to be bothered by it (and clients who integrate RepBot pass this on)
- It passes through information about what the savedgames numbers actually mean

I don't think those requests are at all unreasonable.

[socksey]

Unreasonable may be too strong a word......how about insensitive to everyone who loves Repbot, to the one who created RepBot as an act of love for Fibs, and to the programmers you are requiring to further sacrafice hours of work to comply with your demands while the rest of us suffer.  

socksey




NASA reports that galaxies are speeding away from Earth at 90,000 miles a second. What do you suppose THEY know that we don't? - unknown

[Patti]

And how many *additional* hours of work are you asking me to put in to deal with repbot issues?  I've hit my limit there.

I looked.  I first asked that this problem be fixed in February of 2005... yes, that's over three years ago.  Think about how much work I've done in those three years. The fact that the abuse loophole still exists and is still actively being used is a pretty good illustration of why I'm frustrated.

[socksey]

Has anyone given you any kind of report on any progress being made?  How long might this take?  

socksey



"You can't wait for inspiration. You have to go after it with a club." - Jack London

[PolyphonicBrie]

RepBot can stay if:

- There's no loophole for ganging up on someone
- It is VERY CLEAR that it's not my problem and I'm not to be bothered by it (and clients who integrate RepBot pass this on)
- It passes through information about what the savedgames numbers actually mean

I don't think those requests are at all unreasonable.

1. Maybe there are other examples, but (as I tried to explain) in the situation described at the top of the thread, then the attempt to "gang up" probably proved futile because of the way Repbot works.
2+3. Yes that's reasonable, although since many users use clients that seem to have been abandoned by their developers, the only way this would work would be for Repbot to issue a periodic disclaimer & explanation after every few "ask repbot" responses.

Would it be more or less reasonable to ask that a reputation management feature be added to FIBS directly?

PB

[Patti]

A reputation feature won't be added to FIBS directly, since I don't have the source code to do so and Andreas isn't actively developing FIBS.

Players create multiple accounts, dump matches between them to boost their experience, and then have a powerful army.  You're right that just spinning up zero-experience accounts doesn't work.

[socksey]

Another reason for RepBot is for tournaments.  Limitations can be set for experience, ratings, and reputation.  This helps weed out the droppers so that the tourney director does not need to check each player individually which would be a big job to take on in addition to all the other details we have to attend to.

socksey



"If you believe the doctors, nothing is wholesome; if you believe the theologians, nothing is innocent; if you believe the military, nothing is safe." - Lord Salisbury