Unbanning people

[MadMatt]

Personally, I consider it rude if you unban a person that some other tourney director (TD) has banned. I have noticed it has happened at least twice so far.

I am not making it a rule or anything that you shouldn't unban people you didn't ban (I don't want to be a my-word-is-law dictator when it comes to TourneyBot), but I simply do not think it polite for some TD to unban a person without consulting with the TD who did the banning.

When vqs came to me whining about his ban, I refused to overrule another TDs decision. For one reason, I didn't know the whole story of why he had been banned and for another, if I had unbanned him, that would have destroyed the purpose of the banning system. If the banned person can always just run to another TD to have their ban revoked, what is the point of the ban ability then? Please think about this.

Similarly, you should not interfere with other TDs' tourneys. Kari and houtx run Fridays3, there should never be any reason for anyone else to ban or unban anyone from that type of tourney. If you ever run your own tourney series that TB supports, you'll not want other people interfering with who can play in it either.

I have stated in several threads that banning should be used with care. I will not interfere with TD decisions, but I will not let an abuse of the system ruin TourneyBot as well. To repeat it here, ban people who abuse TourneyBot or FIBS, interrupt tourneys, try to mislead the TD, continually break your rules etc. Don't ban idiots. Don't ban people because of their political or religious believes. Don't ban morons who shout obscene and homophobic stuff. That just shows them they got your attention and attention is what they strive for. If however, these people disrupt a tourney with their shouting and whatnot, undermine your authority as the TD, then DO ban them. Also, if someone continually insults you, I see no reason why you should just have to take that kind of crap. Ban them from YOUR tourney. As a general rule, try banning them from a couple of your tourneys before imposing a global ban and see how that works.

As I said, I won't interefere with it until it starts hurting TourneyBot more than helping it. But please remember, I get a message about every global ban...

Peace,

[jinnate]

what i'm hearing is that while you wish kari had not banned zyx and that socksey had banned vqs from her tourneys a few times before globally banning him, you also think that it was rude of me to unban both zyx and vqs from all tourneys, and that i was simply out of line banning zyx from fridays3 tourneys.

it also sounds like you're saying that you'd like everyone to go easy on the global bans. and that ... (i'm not sure i have this right, pls feel free to clarify) you refused to unban vqs because you didn't know the whole story, you respect your td's and want to support their decisions, and you don't want to start a precedent undermining them & their authority as td's? and that you'd like me to do the same.


you're probably going to hate me for this, but vqs didn't come to me to unban him. i had read socksey's entry in another forum and thought she had gone kari's route and gotten ban-happy.

my understanding of bans has always been global bans were the last resort. and because of that, i always thought that a global ban would be preceded by discussions in the tourneybot forum and/or email list. when kari first told me of zyx's ban and that it came about because of what was said in shouts, i felt pretty shaken up. not only had there been no discussion (i hadn't known about the snakepit topic), it was based on non-tourney behavior.

then i read socksey's comments in the snakepit discussion, and then vqs was banned. at least this one was based on tourney behavior. and yet, no discussions.

because a global ban affects all of our tourneys, i would think all of us get a say in that. because a global ban affects all of our tourneys, it would seem that a decision like that gets hashed out before it's enacted.

sockey's solution seemed to be that everyone should unban vqs, if they wanted to, for their tourneys and then re-institute the ban. when i think of the typing i'm going to have to do as the global ban list grows, i feel resentful.  it feels like you're asking me to do your work for you.

i feel angry when i see a global ban i have no knowledge of. there's no way to tell who put the ban on, and there hasn't been discussion in tourneybot forum or email list (at least not that i'm aware of) among the td's about gosh, we've got to do something about zyx or vqs because of such-and-such. i like having a huge, varied lot to pull from for my tourneys. i like being easy going with players and i want banning to be a last resort. i know this doesn't work for everyone. but you can ban them from your tourneys. so why use global? or you can bring it up in forum, and have the td's talk about it. so why use global first? or you can email the list if you want to keep it private. so what is making people first go to global?

[webrunner]

I think that there should be only one person who can make and undo global bans.
And like Burper said.. they have to be discussed or even voted on.

Maybe we can save the banlist for the individual TD's?

[hypnosa]

You can see banning people from f.i. tourney's, as a warning to those people.
And if people are being really rude and obnoxious, they should be warned for there behaviour. If they change or appologize, you can unban them. Kind of a punishing/rewarding system.
I personally do not think people are allowed to shout everything they like. Sometimes they just go to far in my opinion. But that is another discussion.
Nevertheless, i think all the tb directors should be informed about this and discussion about it should also be possible. Not one leader, as he/she may have to much power.

[MadMatt]

I have said it before and I will say it again, there will be no personal ban lists. This is exactly what I want to prevent -- TourneyBot tourney is not a social gathering of people you like and no one else. I write this software so that the entire community can enjoy it, even morons who monopolize shouts.

People who only want to have their friends enter tourneys shouldn't be TDs. If you want to ban everyone you don't like from every single one of your tourneys, I don't care, but I am sure not going to make that easier for you by providing you with a way to store the list of banned people between tourneys.

Also, I think there's no reason to ban people ahead of time, when they might not even be wanting to join your tourney or aren't even online. Before starting a tourney, check who signed up for it and if it was one of the people you don't want in, ban them. If they did something so awful they need to be banned from every single tourney ahead of time, then there's global ban.

Banning someone globally and then saying other people can lift the ban for their tourney is wrong. Either that person did something to merit the ghlobal ban. or he didn't. If it's just you that he has a problem with, ban him from your tourneys.

And use RepBot to filter out idiots.

[jinnate]

another reason unbanning globals for "just my tourney" is annoying that for tourneys with a reg period of several days means i have to personally invite those players, leaving messages and the like, seeing if they want to play, then maybe even scheduling a time to be on when they're on so that i can lift the ban, they can register, and i can put the ban back on. with 1 vqs, not bad with a vqs and a zyx, ummm. and with more flash bans, this becomes downright ridiculous.

[JonJon]

How about this...

Using a pencil and paper, make a list of all the people you want banned from your tourneys. Now count the number of names. If that number is more than 5, don't run tourneys anymore, or get over it, one or the other. Simple enough.


And I think there should be a vote anytime there is to be a global ban. All the TDs come here and cast their ballot. That, or we make our case to MadMatt who then decides whether or not a ban is in order. That kinda puts Matt in the line of fire though...

Or maybe there shouldn't be a ban function at all. If a TD wants to kick a person out of their tourney, so be it. They can do that by making them forfeit. Then there is no reason to ban anybody. If player A knows the TD is gonna kick them out, then they will bore of joining tourneys just to make trouble.

Just my 2 cents.

JJ

[jinnate]

[begin rant]

i am just so disgusted over all this. after a back n forth with socksey in which she claimed i just didn't get it and she wished the flying monkeys of oz upon me (i'm paraphrasing, very loosely), i have to ask again, what makes global banning the first choice?

socksey mentioned that players don't really get it into their thick skulls (again, i'm loosely paraphrasing) until the consequences are grim enough.

so it sounds to me that global bans are being used to influence behavior. which i am not thoroughly opposed to.

she also mentioned some of the things he did.

i know there have been times when i've done tourneys when a player and i have gotten into it. i know how hard it's been for me, in the heat of the moment, to back up and cool down. and i know that i haven't backed up and cooled down.

given kari's global ban of zyx and the circumstances and given that socksey gave a global ban of vqs because he shouted at her, i believe that these bans are mostly retaliatory in nature. it just feels that way to me. i'm really not wanting to support that.

a majority vote, i don't have a problem with. it feels like that is at least engendering some thought and consideration before action. if td's compare ban lists, and a lot have similar players on their lists and decide to institute a global ban, i don't have a problem with that.

what i'd like to see is that people are weighing their decisions to globally ban someone. i'd like to feel that a global ban wasn't an off-the-cuff decision made in the "that-player-must-pay" heat of the moment.

i'd primarily like to see that because 1) i know how pissed i can get at a player. 2) i've witnessed how some td's institute their bans (global and otherwise) and disagree with their reasoning. 3) i want to have fun at fibs and i want to have great tourneys, and i have yet to have such a problem with any player that has made me want to ban them. 4) working around somenoe else's global ban takes fun out of the td experience. 5) there's been a great big blanking silence around the question "what the blank makes you choose a global ban as the first option?"

[socksey]

jinnate just pointed me to this area of the forum which i have not been to before.  there is far too much in all of the forums for me to read them all and all the time.

i think jonjon has a good idea.  voting by all the tourney directors would be good on global banning.  

my decision on global banning vqs was not made lightly.  anyone who knows me, knows that i think.  there are many td's that i do not know also.  i have been on fibs for a very long time.  years, although i am not one of the originals.  i have been here for over 30,000 experience.  check my reputation with repbot.  i am highly thought of.  check my list with repbot.  you will see where my only complaints come from.  i'm one of the good guys, guys.  really, i am.

vqs made my life hell after i asked him to whisper in a final tourney match where i was directing.  he was kibitzing and cheering one player on without regard to the other.  he said he was friends with both players, but he was cheering many times for only one of the finalists.  he refused to whisper.  he continued to kibitz.  he ignored my instruction (i did ask nicely, too) and told me to lighten up.  he told me many many things.  then one of the players blinded him at my request.   then he began shouting degrading things about me in shout for a very long time.  i won't go into all of that here.  besides, i didn't make a copy of shouts.  i was so upset, i didn't think of it.  i ended by telling him that he couldn't play in any of my tourneys again unless he apologized to me.  he has never done that.  

after i told him that he couldn't play in my tourneys, he continued to sign up for them.  this was before the ban option was available.  then, i didn't see him and he can't be banned after a tourney begins.  i had to forfeit him to get him out, thereby also disturbing another player, although they seemed happy to get a win.  but you can see, he is completely disregarding my authority as a tourney director.  he just doesn't care at all.

when i figured out how to do a global ban, i did that.  i thought i was doing you all a favor so that you weren't subjected to the same treatment.  then, kari informed me that other td's were not in agreement with me.  and he further talked me into lifting the global.  he was chatting with vqs at the time also.  vqs had begged kari to lift the global ban which i did after kari got a promise from vqs that he would not sign up for my tourneys, and that he would not degrade me in shouts, and in return, i would lift the global ban.  

at the time, i was happy with this.  kari also promised me that if vqs broke his promise in any way, that he would global ban vqs himself.  this worked fine for maybe a week, or two.  i haven't kept track of time, but then, he joined my tourney again recently, disrupting me and my tourney which i reported to kari and at which time i placed the global ban on again leaving kari a message that i had done so.

oh, and did i mention (before the kari talk) that he abused me in shouts another two times for literally hours......about 3.  if this is the kind of person you want to be lenient with and playing in your tourneys, then be my guest.   after all this, he may voluntarily refrain from obnoxious kibitz in tourney observation.  who knows?  or he may be on his good behavior just to thwart me.  however, i left the option, gladly, for you to unban him for other tourneys, if you so choose.  it seems this isn't enough.  

jinnate makes a point.  her point was what if he wants to sign up for a tourney that is open for registration but won't be played for a long time?  and why should all the other td's have to remove the ban, then replace it when i can ban vqs before each tourney.  maybe i am being unfair to other td's.  i just have a hard time remembering to ban vqs before each tourney.  but i can put it with my other tourney instructions so it can be managed.

if this is want you all want, please let me know and i will comply.

you know, this whole thing is making me sick.  i just spent a time in chat with jinnate trying to explain to her of my ban on vqs.  i also spent considerable time with a third td in chat.  vqs just isn't worth any more of my time.  i was in chat with kari for ages, on forum in another line.  i had to take more teasing than you can imagine from supposed friends on fibs over this.  this is all i intend to say.  

do as you will.

as i am typing this, vqs is starting a chat with me.  here it is:

vqs: you know I must be curious as to why
You: why what?
vqs: care to fill in teh details?
You: what do you mean?
You: what details? about what?
vqs: i was unbanned adn now i am banned?
vqs: and
You: would you like to apologize to me?
vqs: maybe you should tell me what i am apologising for and
I can concider it
You: you broke your promise to kari by joining another of
my tourneys, but that isn't the reason. the reason is that you
disrespected me as a tourney director as i was simply doing
my job. then you harrassed me in shouts for literally hours.
did you think i would forget that?
vqs: i was told i could play tourneys and not to tlak with you

vqs: thats what i did
vqs: thanks though
You: you were told not to play in my tourneys
vqs: you weren't part of the discusion
vqs: but thta 's ok
vqs: that's
You: i was chatting with kari at the same time.
vqs: no problem
You: ask kari
vqs: yoas i said you were not part of the discision
vqs: as i
vqs: discusion
You: ask kari, then. don't ask me.
vqs: you i have no doubt you were talking with kari
vqs: you just didn't see what was said between us
You: kari was convincing me to lift your ban
vqs: it might surprised you
vqs: ;-)
vqs: no problem
vqs: just asking
You: could be. i don't care.
vqs: yes you care very much
vqs: ;-)
vqs: it is your life
You: no longer
vqs: adios
You: never has been my life. i have a good life separate
from fibs.

cheers...............socksey  

[jinnate]

well, then i'd like to apologize for lifting vqs' ban. it certainly seems that under the cirumstances, you pursued every other option available before instituting a global ban.

i'd still like to see some discussion before players are globally banned and i could definitely get behind voting.

[socksey]

i  accept.  u just went up 5 pts on my estimator scale.      thank you.

socksey

[MadMatt]

If you guys want to vote on who to globally ban, that's fine with me.  You can use the TourneyBot mailing list to accomodate for that.

Personally, I believe Tourney Directors are perfectly capable of reaching a decision on who abuses TourneyBot enough to get banned on their own.  If it turns out some of them aren't, then they're probably not fit to be TDs anyway.

All I ask is that you think before you ban someone from a tourney, especially globally. Remember that personal dislike or disagreement with their political stance is no reason to do it. But if they break your rules or disrupt a tourney in some other way,  go for it.

I ask you to show respect for your fellow Tourney Directors as well. The ban system simply cannot work if the banned person can just whine to another TD to get unbanned.

And give your fellow TDs some credit. They're all respected members of the community, whereas the people who got banned (globally) so far are known troublemakers. When it comes down to trusting the word of a TD whose contribution to FIBS is undisputable and whose experience of running a tourney predates TourneyBot by years and the word of a known abuser, I know which one I'll take... It will be much easier on all of you if you stick together rather than bicker on whether the ban was proper or not.  

[socksey]

Is there a TD only mailing list?  Where is it.?  I don't even know who all the TD's are.

socksey

[MadMatt]

Is there a TD only mailing list?  Where is it.?  I don't even know who all the TD's are.

socksey

There isn't a TD-only mailing list, however almost everyone who's subscribed to tourneybot-info is a tourney director, so...

To get the list of all Tourney Directors, you can tell TourneyBot moderators

[socksey]

Not so easy to get a TD mailing list.  I have spent considerable time compiling an emailing list.  Some were available from search on Fibsleagammon site.  I found 5 more here, but had to email a request in for email addresses, and I have a message in on Fibs for the last one who was listed neither place.  When the list is complete, I will email the list to all TD's.  

socksey




"There's a difference between a philosophy and a bumper sticker."
- Charles M. Schulz

[MadMatt]

I can create mailing lists easily with Rubyforge. If there's enough interest, I could create a TD-only mailing list, though seeing as how the tourneybot-info mailing list has 0 traffic, you should just use that one prolly. All TDs subscribe to it anyway.

[socksey]

What I had in mind was a private discussion via an email group only for Tourney Directors to deal with banning (where we could make our vote for global banning) as some wanted, and for other Tourney Director business.  This probably wouldn't be a high traffic emailing.  

As for other business, I have had one email ready to mail for some time, but nowhere to mail it.  It is explaining a problem I encountered during a tournament that I didn't want to post here in public forum.  I solved the problem wrongly, then, too late, I figured out a better way to solve it with the help of a friend.  I thought it might be helpful to other TD's who might encounter the same problem.

I, for one, am happy to get any knowledge of how to handle situations that come up from others.  I don't think this is the place to do that.  

socksey  



How did a fool and his money get together in the first place? - Steven Wright

[diane]

I agree we should vote on global bans - and lifting them subsequently- if it is to be considered.  I dont like bans - and am not in favour unless there is no option - but sometimes it is necessary - if nothing else - to be able to keep the peace.  We wil have none - unless we present a united front.
Incidentally - i have told jan_crider they are not welcome in mine - they were abusive to an opponent after a match (but since it was after - it was ok-apparantly) - and then to me when i said something.  Fortunatley this player is easy to keep out - via rep limits.
I wont ban on personal opinions - as you will all have seen  
With others - i dont mind who is in - so long as they are polite to me and the other opponents.  Any bad behaviour would get a person removed from any real tourney - why should it be different here?

Yes - lets present a more united front - using the email addresses (though i wouldnt know where to find the tourneybot info one - am i being dumb again - i know, i know, i should read stuff !!) - whichever ones work best.

[Kari_Grandi]

What I had in mind was a private discussion via an email group only for Tourney Directors to deal with banning

And not only for banning but all sorts of problems what we encounter in this "business". I like the private forum idea. We could share our ideas also and make those tourneys just a bit better

Yes - lets present a more united front -

I agree completely!

Kari

[jinnate]

the tourneybot mailing list subscription page

http://rubyforge.org/mailman/listinfo/tourneybot-info