Unbanning people

[webrunner]

So.. i guess there is really a demand for a private forum for TD's.
If you want i can set it up. Just tell me what you want.
Do you want other people to be able to read it but not post, or do you want it totally locked down and only accessable by TD's ?
 

[diane]

I am for locked down. - how about the rest?

[Kari_Grandi]

locked down

[jinnate]

does it really have to be locked down?

right now, i'm telling myself to sthu, but i gotta ask....

would it really be horrible to leave it open? to let players post?

i've got to say, throughout all of this i feel like the granola-eating, newbie liberal hippie who continually asks "can't we all just get along?" paying no heed to the reality of fibs....

and when i hear what i say, when i notice how much i sound like some of the liberals i'd like to choke, well, i just want to kick myself and shut me up.

but i still gotta ask, and maybe it's only because i haven't been at fibs that long, wouldn't it be better if we talked about players in the open? i was talking to diane about bladerunners' many ids in shouts the other night and bladerunner got real quiet real quick. i'm thinking the same happens when the discussions about players are out in the open, that it would be more effective to have players know that we're taking notes on them and that they're being discussed. i'm also thinking players are less likely to start screaming unfair after they've been globally banned if they know what's been said and if they had a voice in it. or even that they could scream unfair, but no one would pay attention because anyone could see the whole discussion.

i feel like such a liberal. i really hate that feeling. okay, once you finish rofl...

oh, screw it, it's just a thought.

[JonJon]

i feel like such a liberal. i really hate that feeling.

I'm not sure liberal is the correct term. I'm a liberal and I vote locked down.

A locked down forum is gonna REALLY stir up the pot amongst the shout conspiracy group. They are gonna go crazy.

And TDs only have to use it when they want to. We can still post in the open forums about anything we choose to, and would suggest that we generally do so. But to avoid long pointless arguments and a forum where a TD can make his or her case to his/her peers, I think a private forum is the best way to go. Just mind the manner in which you use it. It shouldn't be a forum to go about slamming other players. You know?

JJ

[alef]

Generally I don't think it's a good idea to have lots of discussions about unpleasant players either in private or especially in public. For many of them what they most crave is attention, that's why gag and blind are so wonderfully powerful.

I haven't hosted any TB tourneys myself but here's my $.02 on bannings:
-any TD should be able to ban anyone, that's the right of running a tournament
-extreme cases requiring global bans should have a short presentation of facts to other TDs of why and a quick vote. once passed one way or the other accept the verdict as set and move on

One of the problems with long discussions about banning is that it puts our own attention in the wrong place. Focusing our energy on the positive sides to FIBS is surely healthier for us!

[webrunner]

I almost totally agree with you Alef. ^_^
That is why i was opposed to a seperate TD forum from the beginning.

In my opinion there shouldn't be something like a global ban. if a TD dowsn't want anyone entering his tournaments he/she can ban this person.

Others might not have a problem. Why not let them decide otherwise and have the person in question in their tournaments.

What really the issue is that TD bans aren't saved as far as i know.
This could be solved in two ways:
1. MadMatt builds this feature in TB.
2. Burper adds autobanning in his TD GUI.

But.... i have to listen to the users here.. and i promised myself i wouldn't have my personal opinions influence the way i run this forum. That's why i am still willing to create it.. although i am against it. <_<

[MadMatt]

I almost totally agree with you Alef. ^_^
That is why i was opposed to a seperate TD forum from the beginning.

In my opinion there shouldn't be something like a global ban. if a TD dowsn't want anyone entering his tournaments he/she can ban this person.

Others might not have a problem. Why not let them decide otherwise and have the person in question in their tournaments.

What really the issue is that TD bans aren't saved as far as i know.
This could be solved in two ways:
1. MadMatt builds this feature in TB.
2. Burper adds autobanning in his TD GUI.

But.... i have to listen to the users here.. and i promised myself i wouldn't have my personal opinions influence the way i run this forum. That's why i am still willing to create it.. although i am against it. <_<

Heh, the more I try to explain this, the less people understand it, it seems.

What I'm trying to do here is to prevent tourney directors from banning everyone they don't like from their tourneys. (It feels like I'm explaining this for the 100th time, which I probably am). If we go down that road, we're just going to have little cliques of people playing the tourneys and that is not what TourneyBot is for. You want to have your own little sandbox that only you and your friends can play in, make your own tourney bot.

TD-specific bans would allow for just that, so it's not going to happen. Ever. Please stop asking for it cause it's not going to happen. Ever.

Global bans at least allow for some transparency as everyone knows who is banned and it forces the TDs to act together instead of simply secretly banning on their private lists without anyone knowing why.

So, what you people who want TD-specific bans keep suggesting would have exactly the opposite effect of what you want to achieve. If we're getting rid of anything, we're getting rid of tourney-only bans, not global ones. (But that's not going to happen either.)

[diane]

extreme cases requiring global bans should have a short presentation of facts to other TDs of why and a quick vote. once passed one way or the other accept the verdict as set and move on

That is all iexpect this locked down forum to be - not an area where we chat about players at length! The case is stated by the TD who has encountered a problem - and a vote - and move on.
But at the moment - there is no easy way to do that - and conversations linger and we have an almost chinese whispers arrangement.

 

In my opinion there shouldn't be something like a global ban. if a TD dowsn't want anyone entering his tournaments he/she can ban this person.

I disagree with this because it leads to an arrangements which appears to the users to be a shambles.  A player can be rude and obnoxious to one TD and as nice as pie to another - and get in those tourneys.  If we are kinda using the tourneys as a uniting element within fibs - and it seems to be working well that way - then it needs consistency.

A global ban does not have to be permanent - just a sharp reminder that the people who put their time and effort into providing extra fun for the users on fibs do not expect to be abused as a reward.  It also requires that the TD's are level headed about this - and dont blow up at the least thing - but i think that is not the case - we all have fairly thick skins - and an ability to help where required and be firm where it is also required.

I repeat - if this were a live tournament - and a player was outright rude and subsequently unapologetic to the organisers and their opponents - action would be taken - usually in the form of directions to the nearest exit - and i dont think this is different.

[webrunner]

I understand you Matt, i just don't agree with you.

But hey.. it's your bot.. build it any way you like.
I was just giving my opinion.
I am not even a TD so don't accuse me of wanting my own sandbox please.

I just offered a closed forum although i oppose of that.
That should give you a clue that i am not into own "sandboxes"!
Because that is exactly why i am against a closed forum.
But i think TD's aren't the kind of people that create their own tourney cliques.

I mean.. maybe a few people are a bit trigger-happy but then again.. who can blame them when they are getting abused?

And i think you can ban TD's can't you?

anyway.. you figure it out...
<_<

[MadMatt]

I don't particularly see the reason for having a closed forum thing either, although I have to say that if the TDs feel it will help them do their job better, I say go for it.

And i think you can ban TD's can't you?

It's actually not possible to ban a TD. That could lead to weird loops.

Oh and for the record, the above post wasn't targetted at webrunner specifically, it was targetted at all the people who keep suggesting I add the TD-specific banning to TourneyBot eventhough I posted about it several times before. In short, I won't do it.

This might be a good time to remind everyone that TourneyBot is Open Source Software (in fact, it's more than that, it's Public Domain). So if you want to run your own tourney bot and add all the lovely features you want, you only need to download the code from www.fibsboard.com/tourneybot and modify it to your heart's content.

Peace,

[alef]

It's now sinking in just how interesting and complex this issue is...hmm.  MadMatt, you might have already said this 99 times but it's getting through to me now!

I like your stand about having the TourneyBot TDs stand together in theory, and maybe in practice but I have to give it further thought.  Instead of TourneyBot just being a tool for running tournaments it's becoming a specific identity in itself and is a big step in addition to RepBot in terms of affecting the FIBS idiots and wind up merchants.

For the TDs to stand together then there probably does need to a TD-only mailing list to discuss the bans. Clear decisions can then get made and everyone stands by them. I just have a gut preference for transparency but maybe that doesn't work...          

[diane]

My only reason for a closed forum is that if one or two of us want a ban - but are voted down - then it wont happen - all well and good - but if it is open - the player in question will know who was voted down - and may use that for a means of attack later. One would hope that wouldnt happen - but this is fibs (for all i love it). So a closed forum - just means we can air our views without fear of a showdown later in shouts when we are trying to run a tourney.  There is enough going on without that little extra!!
I have not had too much trouble - but i am aware others have - and just want us all to feel supported - rather than alone to face all that shouts can be....

[socksey]

OK, so where is the list, Matt?

socksey



"The world owes you nothing.  It was here first." - Mark Twain

[MadMatt]

Use the Tourney Directors Cafe forum.

[socksey]

i vote closed forum.  i thought this was closed forum.  is it not?

socksey




"If a dog jumps in your lap, it is because he is fond of you; but if a cat does the same thing, it is because your lap is warmer." - Alfred North Whitehead

[webrunner]

No  -_-