Game 3, move 1 NEXT NEXT move 2: Forum 4-1

[Zorba]

The Forum passed rkb's double in game 2, so rkb is now 2-0 ahead in the 5pt match.

NEW GAME! 

We roll 5-3: 8/3 6/3 NEXT, rkb rolls 5-3: 8/3 6/3 NEXT.

Move 2, we(blue) roll 4-1:

jGfwATCMZ/ABMA:cAmmACAAAAAA

[diane]

Spoiler

I will be very dull here and restack the 8. Although 24-23 and 13-9  is the alternative move I would make, dependant on my mood 
On a no doubt contentious aside...I know many live players who will NEVER move 8-3, 6-3 with an opening 5,3.  The contention is that it creates an anchor too far forward this early in the game.  I am sure the bots would prefer this move, but it might have been nice to see some consideration of alternatives. Since we have very definitely established that these games are about LEARNING, not WINNING, it should be deliberated.
It is of course still possible to have that conversation- if anyone is interested, I know I am

[close]

[blitzxz]

Spoiler

Now it seems that I'm all alone with my vote. To me 13/9 6/5 is clearly superior. We're behind in score which calls for very aggressive moves. And also in the opening it is my understanding that you should answer to attack with attack (for example 2 builders openings are correctly answered with 2 builders). Who ever gets here the more impressive prime and more quickly is very strong. We should not waste any moves for splitting because this gives more time for our opponent to make the prime first, especially if he gets tempo hits. Getting hit from slotting is not major set back as usual but making the 5-point is a huge gain. I go for it with 13/9 6/5.

[close]

[Zorba]

Contentious indeed... I sure hope opening 5-3's will be nexted in every online match I'll ever play in, since that issue's been decided long ago and it's not even close. The thing to learn is that making the threepoint is best at all scores, plain and simple. Behind in the match as we are here, even more so, as making the point is more gammonish. So, NEXT. It's in the same league as playing 24/13 with an opening 6-5 which I'll also NEXT.

If people want to learn about opening rolls, that's great, I suggest to read all the info on this subject that's on several bg sites, like http://bkgm.com/openings.html#opening53 and rollouts at bgonline.org. Or, start a seperate discussion about opening rolls in the backgammon forum section. I think that's a better than cluttering the OLM. 

This match is indeed about learning, so that's why I stopped at this much more interesting 4-1:

Spoiler

13/8 is safe, but doesn't do much for development. Too timid in the opening phase, especially since we're behind in the match.

13/9 gives us a lot more opportunities to improve our offense next turn, and since 5-2 is blocked, it's only 4 indirect shots at this blot, which would also give several returnshots when hit, so the risk is minimal. 24/23 with the one is very constructive too, we develop the backcheckers with minimal risk: rkb won't be too eager to attack so deep in his homeboard, especially since he's already made the relatively deep threepoint. He'd much rather attack us on his 4 or 5 point. Also, and this is a great rule of thumb for the opening phase: when your opponent has stripped his eightpoint, the 24/23 split is usually the way to go, unless there's some obviously stronger alternative available. The reason is that if rkb wants to build his homeboard further (or attack us), he will often have to use chis checkers from the eightpoint to do so, and without the spare, that means he'll have to break the point and often leave a blot there. Our checker on 23 will then give us a direct shot at the blot.

The only alternative is 6/5 with the one. This slots a great point while also bringing in the builder on 9 for covers. It's probably the most gammonish move. It looks too risky though, leaving 11 fours to hit plus 3-1 and the shots at the ninepoint blot, 6-2, 5-3 and 4-4 that hits both for a complete disaster. That's 18 hits total, and then we're on the bar with the other two backmen not split, reducing chanves at a much needed advanced anchor. So the downside of getting hit is pretty big.

What about the upside? If rkb misses the slot, we get a chance to make the fivepoint. However, we're far from guaranteed to do that here. Ones, fours and eights will cover cleanly; threes would break the eightpoint and leave another blot. rkb will likely split against the slotting move, so there might be quite a few shots for him in the outfield.

So, the slot will survive only about 50% of the time, and then it will get covered only about 2/3 of the time, sometimes leaving rkb direct shots or several indirects in the process. It does not seem worth it, since 24/23 is constructive too at much less risk.

[close]

[diane]

If people want to learn about opening rolls, that's great, I suggest to read all the info on this subject that's on several bg sites, like http://bkgm.com/openings.html#opening53 and rollouts at bgonline.org. Or, start a separate discussion about opening rolls in the backgammon forum section. I think that's a better than cluttering the OLM. 

That in itself is interesting - thanks 

and I have figured out what an OLM is - and it doesn't live in a sea cave 

[socksey]

Spoiler

I will be very dull here and restack the 8. Although 24-23 and 13-9  is the alternative move I would make, dependant on my mood 

I can remember vici saying the standard 2-5 move was too deep into home at the beginning of a game at least once. 

I voted to make the 3 block tho.  But like lbitzxz's move of the 13/9 6/5 very well, too!   Maybe I will change my vote.   

[close]

Since Zorba's explaination, I'll stick to my original vote. 

socksey



"The very emphasis of the commandment: Thou shalt not kill, makes it certain that we are descended from an endlessly long chain of generations of murderers, whose love of murder was in their blood as it is perhaps also in ours" - Sigmund Freud

[ah_clem]

I can remember vici saying the standard 2-5 move was too deep into home at the beginning of a game at least once. 

This was the dominant theory in the pre-bot era: making points deep in you home board early "killed"the checkers by taking them out of play.  Since the bots have been around, the dominant theory has changed: with an opening of 5-3, the modern approach is to make the 3-point.