Personal responsibility and FIBS drama

[manxcat]

Obviously what I did was so heinous, that I cannot have shouts back.  Irregardless of the fact that it was the first time.  So be it. 

All hail the Queen.


Thanks Bob. 

Oh and Patti you denied inim codes for you although he admitted he has/did/does in shout as well as in tell to me.  Fairly recently, in fact. 

[Patti]

inim codes for himself.  The things that he does are independent third-party contributions to the FIBS ecosphere.  He has not written a single line of code that I have run.

And do you really think that it was the first time you've hurled an insult or fed drama? 

[manxcat]

first time gagged, not a repeat offender by your standards...
and it took me a year and a half of trying, to see what it would take
pity it had to be under a group mandate
in your mistaken response to a joke
done

[socksey]

but Patti you are saying that everyone has to abide by the same rules.

I have never seen that happen. 

Perhaps this occurs because most of the conversation with Patti is done privately.     I don't think any of us have a clue how much Patti puts up with or what all that might be.   

I think all of us who have great advice to give in this thread, should step back and listen to what Patti has said and enough said on that.   

Oh, and as for inim, I've told him to stfu several times although I respect and admire him for some things, I hate when he rants abuse at my country, shouts news items I didn't come to Fibs to hear, political debate items, and that goes for anyone since he's not quite alone in that arena.  I have desisted in that practice in the future.  (Come to think of it, I don't recall him ever doing any of those things when Patti is present.) 

Dorbel has been one of the worst abusers on Fibs in the past.     He tends to be more silent these days and that may be a good thing.  Maybe it's just his sarcastic sense of humor that we have seen.  Maybe not.  Anyway, I promise not to throw out the old tired insult that was thrown at me again either.  He has a lot to contribute and I would not like to interfere with that.   

I've never seen any abuse thrown at Bonnita, otherwise, I, no doubt, would have been in the middle of whoever threw it.     Bonnisis is a true angel of Fibs!   

Inim seems to be very happy about the new stricter Fibs policy.  I, on the other hand, find Fibs to be far more boring than in the past. 

Several times lately, when I've played on Fibs, there has not been a word spoken in shouts.  Is this what we want? 

socksey



It is the chiefest point of happiness that a man is willing to be what he is. - Desiderius Erasmus

[diane]

I've never seen any abuse thrown at Bonnita, otherwise, I, no doubt, would have been in the middle of whoever threw it.     Bonnisis is a true angel of Fibs!   

That is what so many of us do...we rarely attack because of something [mean] that was said to us specifically, but because of smething that we witnessed that was unfair, nasty or racist to someone else.  We step in, and break the rule that has been set for us...'ignore it all and do not escalate anything'.

Then we complain when the return fire is personal to us...and lo, we do not have the 'perfectly clean record' required to have a leg to stand on with Patti.

[Patti]

As socksey said, you see very little of my interactions with people on FIBS.  The fact that you don't see something doesn't mean that it hasn't happened.

Another common pattern is, "But such-and-such did it too.  Why aren't you yelling at him?"  I probably am, it's just that (as I usually am with the person I'm talking to) it's being done privately.  But manxcat, since you want the discussion to be public, I'll tell you the same thing publicly that I did privately.  When you're ready to take responsibility for your behavior, you can have your shouts back.  That includes understanding that you did indeed hurl an insult and contribute to the vitriol.

[diane]

I, on the other hand, find Fibs to be far more boring than in the past.  Several times lately, when I've played on Fibs, there has not been a word spoken in shouts.  Is this what we want? 

If it means no one is being attacked and abused, and there is less 'drama', yes, that is what I want. Very much - and I have said that repeatedly.

I want to be able to shout support to a newbie without it being lst in a sea of stupid, childish or nasty stuff...I want to be able to shout a tourney without that being lost in what can happen out there.

I want to be ale to have pleasant and humerous conversations when it isn't interrupting any of the above...and for thse who dont find my input humerous or pleasant to simply follow the rules and gag me...not hurl insult after insult or lie after lie.

Yes I have been caught up in the nasty myself...but I have taken a shedload more than I have given..

I will also point out, I was on fibs for about two years before I bothered to shout at all....I watched the shouters with distaste, and did not want to be involved.  It was only around the time of tourneybot, when I wanted to run tourneys that I entered the shout arena at all.

I joined fibs in 2002, and only after my comments in the 'snakepit' thread...in 2004 did I really get involved in what I will call 'defending myself'

Read down that first page again - and look how far we have...I would say 'inched', but we havent even gone that far...since 2004

http://www.fibsboard.com/general-chit-chat/community-or-snakepit/

Back before don started dictating to me over what I should and should not do...he posted the comment being battered round shouts at that time..

I was giving half an eye to shouts on FIBS this afternoon when the amazing term, "dildiane" caught my eye.  I scrolled up, and it turns out Biggles was flaming someone named "diane" about her posts on FIBSboard.com.  I came here and checked it out.

So this is what's funny or pathetic:  Biggles was whining because diane wouldn't defend herself in shouts, with Biggles' buds ready to flame her to cinders; and when I checked out this forum, I didn't see a single word from Biggles.  I'm sure this'll be fertilizer for Biggles' next tirade, so I'd ask him to quote this:  "Biggles, why don't you have the courage to respond when you don't have your backups?  Reply to diane's words on FIBSboard.com ON FIBSboard.com"!

Should I bold the term...Biggles was whining because diane wouldn't defend herself in shouts

I really, really, really did not want an escalated battle in shouts...it took about another year for that to change, when I realised nothing else was gonna happen, and I was utterly fed up with being the wrong end of shouts.  So you can thank the shout culture for what I have gotten up to there - I literally watched and learned and then did...

[socksey]

Ah, rats!     What's the point?   

socksey



Let one therefore keep the mind pure, for what a man thinks, that he becomes. - The Upanishads

[NIHILIST]

Did I miss it or did Patti just choose to not answer my questions about inim's favored nations status at FIBS ?

Does he help in some way to improve the overall FIBS experience ? Lend technical assistance ? Anything above and beyond the call of duty that might prompt Patti to cut him some extra slack ?

I don't particularly care if he does things that give Patti reasons to cut him some extra slack, but if he doesn't, Patti's silence only works to confirm the opinion that she indeed shows favoritism.

Bob

[diane]

inim codes for himself.  The things that he does are independent third-party contributions to the FIBS ecosphere.  He has not written a single line of code that I have run.

That answer?

[manxcat]

Did I miss it or did Patti just choose to not answer my questions about inim's favored nations status at FIBS ?

Does he help in some way to improve the overall FIBS experience ? Lend technical assistance ? Anything above and beyond the call of duty that might prompt Patti to cut him some extra slack ?

I don't particularly care if he does things that give Patti reasons to cut him some extra slack, but if he doesn't, Patti's silence only works to confirm the opinion that she indeed shows favoritism.

Bob

she has not answered many questions i asked, and points others have raised,
and has ignored where i took responsibility and apologized....
sorry i missed this yesterday, as my pc has been giving me trouble




one answer Diane, among many questions...

and inim has said he has coded for her, so is she saying he is a liar???

and of course never addresses that she mistook a joke and spun it around, until it suited her agenda.

and Patti YOU ARE THE ONE WHO TOOK THIS PUBLIC WITH THIS FORUM TOPIC
not me 
you pointed me to it and thereby invited me to respond.
spin that

[manxcat]

And diane, much as i hate to threaten our current friendship, there was a time we did not have that
and you were posting shouts about me being dim for my choice in friends, among other things.
as a matter of fact i received a phone call from bonnita about it, as i was out, and she was very upset.

and btw, the silliness to the newbies is innocent fun, and there is always someone to set them straight.

i think very few of us are innocent of starting something on occasion. 
but most of us handle it without whining to patti
and because of the whiners we are now all being taken to task

funny she allowed anyone to villify and attack don in any way they liked, but permabanned him for annoyingly insisting she do something about all this....
and now she is
anyone else see the irony?

[diane]

one answer Diane, among many questions...

and inim has said he has coded for her, so is she saying he is a liar???

It is an answer, I cannot comment on the quality of it, as I dont know what inim has or has not done..apart frm talking me down off the kitchen shelf every now and then 

Can we not at least try here to use less inflammatory language? Assume innocence...maybe they have different understandings of things that have been done...

And as for questions...and requesting what favours inim has done to be allowed such 'grace', I would be much more interested to know what Nihi has ever done, to be allowed to do what he does, for as long as he has, without a single positive contribution to fibs that I have seen...

Assuming innoncence...maybe there is something he wants to share to demonstrate his worthiness within...

[manxcat]

And you don't think calling someone a liar (which is what you did by calling his statements lies) is an insult?  You could have said the same thing without insinuating that he was a liar with something like, "sure, right after inim had his say."

and again, he had just called me a liar.  and when you asked me in shout Patti shouts: Was that volunteering, WT?
You shout: take it how you see it, you always do
and i said in  tell i hit the send key too fast.  i am smart enough to have changed it, but my  fingers were too fast.

You obviously missed my apology, and my accepting responsibility for myself, several times now
AND NEVER DID YOU TAKE HIM TO TASK FOR CALLING ME A LIAR

but like socks said

Ah, rats!    What's the point?  

you will respond to what you choose to respond to, and ignore what you choose to ignore and spin what you choose to spin.
your prerogative. you are the queen,
but you are not fair
so please do not pretend you are.
i used to have respect for you.  you have lost it with this entire mishegas of spin and misdirection, ignoring legitimate questions, apologies, and acceptance of responsibility, and your blatant favoritism.

i would have more respect for you if you simply acknowledged that you are unfair, and that is your choice as queen, whether or not it is right

socks was right, fibs has become boring, not because it is nicer, but because some people are afraid to shout for fear of reprisal
others do as diane said: the devil/angel flips some shouters do when patti is not there

and yes patti it was about whining, no matter how much you deny it.
because there is a contingent who whines to you
you could tell them like you have told me and a number of others to gag
but you choose who you will go after, by personal feeling, not unilaterally, evenhandedly, fairly



point taken di.

[Patti]

Manxcat, go back tot he beginning and see where I wrote this:

"This is not intended for any one individual.  Rather, it is addressed to all of you who create and feed drama on FIBS and engage in abusive behavior."

In fact, I did not take the discussion about you public.  This particular thread had very little to do with you.  It had to do with about five different incidents that I've had to deal with over the past week.  While you may have a guilty conscience about your behavior and assume that this discussion is directed at you, that's not the case.  If anything, you were a very minor player in what prompted me to write this.

And again, you assume that because you don't see something that it didn't happen.  That's not a valid assumption.


And as many times as I've said this, I'll say it once more.  It's not about the whining.  It's about the fact that I provide this platform out of the kindness of my heart, and a handful of people use it primarily as a platform for picking on each other.  I am NOT COOL with that.  I don't know how to make this any clearer to you than it already is-- it's about the abuse, not about the whining about abuse.

By the way, the stupidity to the newbies is not innocent fun.  It makes it really hard for sincerely helpful people to communicate with them.  The newbie is barraged with a whole bunch of responses, some good and some bullshit, and has no real way of knowing who to trust.  The stupidity with the newbies makes FIBS an unwelcoming place.  Stop doing it, all of you.

[KissMyAss]

I think my blog, entitled The Imaginary World Around Us, which you can find at www.woman4hire.blogspot.com  covers this exact topic. 

What someone says on a website, is completely irrelevant to the real life of the person they 'flame' unless the person on the receiving end, makes it relevant.  None of you call me offline, I will probably never meet any of you, much as I would love to, therefore once I am off-site or offline, nothing that was said matters any more.   

If one of you abuses me one day, the next day when I log back in, I will chat to you like nothing happened.  Why??  Mainly, cos nothing did.  It's words on a screen, they disappear.   If you're so thin skinned that you take offense to something that was written, about you or someone you know, and then have to wage a battle to rectify the situation or 'defend your honour', then why be on a website?  The only reason that words create ill-feeling, is because they are repeated.  "hey did you hear what someone said about you....".  Who gives a toss??  Call me and say it to me directly if it's that important to you to abuse me, otherwise you're just peeing into the wind.   It's pointless. 
Words like 'liar' are just words.   They are thrown around in order to get a response from someone, and the accuser will sit back and watch, and think "ooooh i got her/him to bite back, aren't i funny".  Why give other people the power to control your emotions and feelings?  Especially people that aren't part of your every day life, or those who don't sit at your Christmas dinner table.   

I get online, I joke around with people, I chat to everyone, and I leave.  If people want to hurl some stuff my way, so be it.  It only makes them look pathetic for trying to start something with me.  If anything, as I usually say, "talk about me while I'm gone, I love the attention!". 

As long as we're airing our grievances though, I do have something to add.....  One thing that does bug me, is people who come online, then jump into shouts, demanding that someone stop talking about a certain subject because they don't want to see it, or it interrupts the conversation they are trying to start with someone else and can't read the responses.  Um...... would you go into a shopping mall, and demand everyone shut the hell up so you can hear yourself talk to your friend?  Do you call or write the newspapers and tell them to stop printing things you don't feel like reading?   If you don't like the topic in shouts, suggest a new one or go into tells and chat to your friends uninterrupted.  That's why they are there.
I know this subject has been mentioned in someones reply on this forum, and I am not directly attacking whoever that was, so for the love of god, do not come at me all huffy about this.  Or do.  All I am saying, is that it's rude to tell people what they can and can't talk about, and if you don't do it in real life when you are out, don't do it online. 

Anyway, that's all I have to add.  Thanks.

[diane]

I think my blog, entitled The Imaginary World Around Us, which you can find at www.woman4hire.blogspot.com  covers this exact topic. 
One thing that does bug me, is people who come online, then jump into shouts, demanding that someone stop talking about a certain subject because they don't want to see it, or it interrupts the conversation they are trying to start with someone else and can't read the responses.  Um...... would you go into a shopping mall, and demand everyone shut the hell up so you can hear yourself talk to your friend?  Do you call or write the newspapers and tell them to stop printing things you don't feel like reading? 

Some great points there KMA, and I must go read that blog..

One day we will all be as perfect as you are, and realise what you say is true...but we arent yet - and some will take it seriously, and fewer still, seriously enough to end their lives over it.  I have to say...I find it a bit hard to stomach that we all have to learn to live with something unpleasant, because a handful of individuals cannot control their own actions.

Look at you KMA - do you ever...ever say anything to upset anyone?  You are there to have a giggle, and I love to engage in some fun word play, or banter with you - and plenty of others like you.  It is what makes this site special [yes - that's you Darl] 

As for shout topics...you are right about not controlling it..and I love your analagy...but consider for a moment..if the mall were on fire..would you want *someone* to be able to get that message over the general din?  If your child had been abducted...and you wanted to seal the place down and have everyone helping the search..would it not be good to be able to get that message across...

So - although nothing *that* serious will happen at fibs...newbies need to be able to ask questions and have their pleas heard over the general hubub...and then yes, it can go to tell maybe. [I say maybe, because it isnt always obvious to them...they shout and they look at the shout area for a response...and it takes a moment to steer them into tells]

Tourneys need to be able to be visible over the trivia shouts...

If Patti is gonna close the site for a moment, she needs to be able to get that message out..

But above all else...if I am playing a bago final...I need you all to be quiet so I dont get distracted 

[diane]

None of you call me offline, I will probably never meet any of you

You can count on meeting me when I get up to your end of this fair land...

FYI - I have met many many fibsters - and know them as more than online personas....and some of the history of current situations is not just about online drama, but real life events.

[pck]

What someone says on a website, is completely irrelevant to the real life of the person they 'flame' unless the person on the receiving end, makes it relevant.
[...]
It's words on a screen, they disappear.

You are the first writer I have known to downplay the importance of language.

I think you're confusing the difference between saying "i'll punch you in the face" and actually doing it with the difference between saying "i'll insult you" and actually doing it. The former involves acts of a different kind, the latter doesn't. "I'll insult you" is already an insult, showing disrespect for the person so addressed. And that insult is very real. The use of words is a very important part of real life. Just because you can't give someone a shiner with a word, it doesn't mean that an act of speech carries no force.

The distinction between "real life" and the online world doesn't apply to language in the same way it does to other actions. Spoken words "disappear" even faster than words on a screen, but nobody would suggest on that ground that spoken words do not matter, or that it is only the addressee's reaction which makes them "relevant". Being affected by words is not a voluntary action on the part of the listener. Which is not to say that the listener is not responsible for his reactions. However, saying "it's just words" is an oversimplification which doesn't do the problem justice.

On your blog you elaborate on the issue of self-portrayal. I think this is much more to the point. How well you know someone you're talking to is much more relevant to the importance the conversation has for you than the question whether it is happening online or "irl".

All I am saying, is that it's rude to tell people what they can and can't talk about, and if you don't do it in real life when you are out, don't do it online.  

I agree completely, noting at the same time that at least some things other people say online seem to bug you notwithstanding.

[inim]

In several postings in this thread I've been accused of favoritism, undue prividledges and power abuse. Let me set a few things straight.

The two inims:
To most users, fibs is a "magic" service they passively use. I am a professional software engineer and I can not dumb myself down, having taken the red pill I see the "fibs matrix". This means fibs to me is not only shout and playing, it is also the software and hardware, the public interfaces and the client and bot software which uses these interfaces. I have been working with this technology for many years and hopefully improved fibs, some of it visible to all, some of it not.

There also is the user inim. People forget that I am here to play backgammon and socialize just as well. That is the problem of "two hats". Separating the two inims is not always easy - including for myself. I try to do this by restraining myself in many ways, e.g. intentionally do not automate some things which would make fibs even more transparent for me. I do not circumvent Patti's rules, such as timeouts, despite the fact it is technically a no-brainer. I eat my own dog-food, and I accept Patti's decisions even when I may disagree.

The uncomfortable position this leaves me in is that I can "do magic" by simply coding against public fibs interfaces open to everybody, but at the same time are not in any official "admin" role which protects me from attacks. On the contrary, the exposed positon at times makes me a lightening rod for all sort of problems. But note: This is nothing I am granted by Patti, this is the result of skills and work invested. Some users perceive that as threatening, which may be a form of envy or not. I can assure you Patti minimizes contact with whatever software I may provide to users or deploy on FIBS. I only use the same public interfaces everybody else could use. There is no conspiracy or secret backdoors. There is only a meanwhile rather experienced software enineer and his wish to keep fibs competitive as compared to other free BG servers, by sinking private time and money.

Proxy attacks:
I want to give an example where drama comes from confusing "inim the engineer" and "inim the user". "Inim only uses RepBot for spying", "Inim makes the GammonBots cheat on selected players", "JavaFIBS crashed my computer", "I won't use services hosted by Inim because that allows him to intrude my local machine". All the same thing, proxy attacks. Most of them are easy to debunk with technical arguments, which is what I do when I see such claims. But people seem not to want to hear that. They prefer superstition and the easy availability of cheap attacks - and they repeat them despite the debunking. And this repetition is what I percieve as personal attacks and creating targeted drama.

Conspiracy theories regarding the dice generator didn't die out in 18 years, despite massive mathematical evidence and very transparent data made available to the public. Thus I have little hope this sort of attack will ever die out.  If you suspect me of technical abuse, please tell Patti and she can use her non-neglectable skill to silently monitor the suspect behaviour. Making a lot of drama in shout about it doesn't solve the problem, it is just that - drama. And yes, it may just be another conspiracy between Patti and me that she despite her engineering know-how sees things not the way you do. That's the beauty of conspiracy theories, they are self-propelled. But then, you may be simply wrong and paranoid ...

Engineering and communication:
Working on fibs software requires talking to other people in the fibs development scene, which of course includes Patti. It may be a bug I find, it may be advice or opinion I need, it may be some server side tweak which saves a lot of unnecessary work, or observations on new user or software behaviour exposed as result to technical changes. Sharing this with other engineers is not conspiracy, it is normal work. After Burper, Avik, Maareyes and Cthulhu for all practical purposes abandoned their fibs software contribution I have picked up some of the orphaned projects. This lead to a quasi-monopoly in fibs client coding for some period, which now fortunately seems to be over after Tom and the mobile clients joined the "fibs coder scene" recently. More diversity here helps not only to lower each individual's workload, it also prevents undue monopolization. And of course your contribution is welcome as well ...

Conclusion:
So please, people, separate cleanly between the "user inim" who loves to do political shouts at times you may not like, and the "contributor inim" from whose work and money you all benefit. Don't monger fear of abuse and don't do proxy attacks. Patti can well control me on the technical side, her stick is decisively longer than mine. You do not even need to trust me, you only need to trust Patti's ability to constrain and monitor me. And if you dislike what i shout as a normal user, just gag me like anybody else. And in case you didn't notice, i am a human too, with flaws. I am grumpy and arrogant at times, for reasons you may not know - such as being the umptieth user asking the same question, or simply real life. But whoever is without similar flaws, please throw the first stone.

Thx for listening.