Want to find an Android backgammon game that doesn't cheat...?

[tbessie]

Hi all...

Not sure if this is the right forum for this, but as a FIBS user way back, I thought all the Backgammon expertise would be concentrated here.

So I've been using an Android phone for the last couple of years.  One thing I've missed on it is FIBS.  The other is a good backgammon game.

There are only a small number of backgammon programs for Android available, at least one of which is a FIBS client (the Odesys one).  One thing that almost all of the backgammon apps have is a large number of people saying "they cheat!" (either conveniently roll better dice when they need them, or just in general roll better dice for each level higher the computer opponent is).

I've read a few articles about this kind of thing, with many people saying "They don't cheat, most people just aren't good players and just *percieve* the games as cheating."

Does anyone happen to know if there is an Android backgammon app (hopefully that's also a FIBS client, but not necessary) that has a LOT of smarts, and plays as well as the best Windows or Mac based apps?

I've looked in Android discussion forums, but almost everything is just a Web interface to the Android app store with lots of unqualified/unverified comments by people; no reviews by experts on the "state of the art" of backgammon apps on Android.

Let me know if there's a better place to post this question - I am new here.

Thanks!

- Tim

[dorbel]

If your app. will connect you to fibs via your phone, then you can be sure that the play is fair and that nobody can cheat you. One problem that you will face though is acceptance. Phone players, for various reasons, are an underclass on fibs, with few regular players willing to play them until they have built up sufficient experience points to show that they are reliable to play and unlikely to disconnect in the middle of a game, or more annoyingly at the end of a match when just about to lose!
The cheating myth arises because most people who play backgammon recreationally are very weak players. On Fibs even the lower rated players will seem strong to you and the GammonBots, which play better than the best humans are so far out of sight that you will do well to win one game in five against them. This, to the novice eye, looks like cheating. It isn't.
Good Luck!

[tbessie]

If your app. will connect you to fibs via your phone, then you can be sure that the play is fair and that nobody can cheat you. One problem that you will face though is acceptance. Phone players, for various reasons, are an underclass on fibs, with few regular players willing to play them until they have built up sufficient experience points to show that they are reliable to play and unlikely to disconnect in the middle of a game, or more annoyingly at the end of a match when just about to lose!
The cheating myth arises because most people who play backgammon recreationally are very weak players. On Fibs even the lower rated players will seem strong to you and the GammonBots, which play better than the best humans are so far out of sight that you will do well to win one game in five against them. This, to the novice eye, looks like cheating. It isn't.
Good Luck!

Thanks for your advice, dorbel!  Well, I wasn't worried about humans cheating because I'm using a phone FIBS client, but more if, when playing against the program itself (on the phone, no FIBS involved), if people write "simple" rules for the levels of play, such that being "better" for the program is simply throwing more "advantageous" dice, rather than really good AI.

Interesting note there about how phone users are perceived - I would also get upset if every time I played a particular person, they were slow to react or got disconnected all the time.  And the times I'd use the phone would be on just those sorts of situations, probably - while walking, on the train, etc (tho' some might be while in a cafe or something).

Good things to know.

- Tim

[dorbel]

I can't see why anybody would want to write a program that cheated. What would be the point? All the sophisticated programs of the last 15 years, Jellyfish, Snowie, Gnu, BgBlitz and now ExtremeGammon regularly attract asinine posts in the forums from morons complaining how they cheat. It used to be particularly funny with Snowie, as one of its best features was its ability to let you print off what the next 5000 rolls would be, so that you could cheat if you wanted to, but poor old Snowie had to trundle along making the best play regardless!

[tbessie]

I can't see why anybody would want to write a program that cheated. What would be the point? All the sophisticated programs of the last 15 years, Jellyfish, Snowie, Gnu, BgBlitz and now ExtremeGammon regularly attract asinine posts in the forums from morons complaining how they cheat. It used to be particularly funny with Snowie, as one of its best features was its ability to let you print off what the next 5000 rolls would be, so that you could cheat if you wanted to, but poor old Snowie had to trundle along making the best play regardless!

Hmm - I don't know; I think the world of mobile apps has a lot more nastiness in it than ones that are accessed on home computers, especially where there are forums dedicated to discussing them; online reputation for things like Jellyfish, etc. are easily destroyed by an online community like FIBS.  Whereas there are uncounted thousands of Android apps that are hardly monitored... if you do a Google search for particular Android apps, you mostly find comments on the Android Market, and nothing else.  No forums (official or not), few reviews (often sponsored in any case), etc.  It's hard to get a real good discussion going about them.

Also, the cheap per-piece price for phone apps makes me wonder if the developers put as much into them as they do into their Windows or Mac variants.

Might just be my imagination, of course; but I wonder why I can't find much discussion about them.

- Tim

[Tom]

This is a little off topic, but I just received this and it should help give us all an idea of how the majority of people view dice randomness

This is to express my disgust for you after having played a good number of games with several of your bots on FIBS. Their cheating with rolls is so blatant that an 8-year old kid would understand after one single game.

The fact that you DARE adding "Do not complain about the dice - The *only* place they can come from is FIBS period!!!" (congrats for the phrasing, a real gem of writing, and why these *?) add to my disgust, by the way largely shared by other players from what I could judge : you don't even have the guts to admit that these rolls coming from FIBS (of course they do!) are grossly manipulated... but it tells it all at the same time about the "slight problem" you have with them. Of course, it is SO obvious!

And so this mail is simply to tell you how I despise you, even if I strongly doubt that somebody obviously proud of producing a cheating machine will get affected.

See, miserable little stinking sh.t, the main problem is that your bots are polluting and destroying the image of FIBS and are an insult to backgammon.

Though being a well-educated and more than mature man, I have no problem with telling you that I spit in your face, and that I am only sorry not to be able to meet you face to face, as it would be my utmost pleasure to severely modify it with my fists.

And for your enjoyment, my reply to him/her

Let me explain a little.

My bots are regular clients, just like JavaFIBS or whatever client you use.

So can you please explain to me how the bot (which is a regular client) can manipulate the dice?

I have those comments at the beginning to remind people that FIBS alone generates the dice
and the client (or bot) has no way of influencing them.

Have you taken any of the matches and run them through GNUBG or Snowie to see if the analysis
of the matches results in the bots getting excessive 'lucky' rolls?

Let's keep emotions (and name calling) out of this discussion and stick to statistical facts.

You seem to make a lot of assumptions about me without ever have talked to me.

I provide those bots as well as TourneyBot as a service to the FIBS community.

I am always looking for ways to improve them.

I would be interested if you could offer a simpler and less offensive introduction to the match.

The unfair dice have been discussed about almost every online site and there are some explanations
out there and most of them revolve around human emotional reaction to getting a roll against them.

This is why I am interested in match analysis by GNUBG or Snowie.

As far as dice manipulation, if you know of a way to do that, I am sure some of us would love to learn how!

If playing the bots makes you want to attack me, then I encourage you to stop playing them.
It would really suck to go to jail over something a silly as a backgammon match!

I fail to see how they hurt the image of FIBS, they are very strongly rated bots and many top players
use them to improve their skills.

By the way, may I quote you on fibsboard.com as other may be interested in your comments?

Tom

Oh yes, I have not received permission to quote him/her, but I did not identify them...

Tom

[stiefnu]

And for your enjoyment, my reply to him/her

Tom, you are to be congratulated on your admirable restraint!  I wonder if this self-styled 'well-educated and more than mature man', while running his matches against your 'cheating bots' through GNUBG or Snowie, will also take note of his error rate and observe just how many of his moves and cube decisions were marked bad or very bad...

Steve

[moonshadow]

Though being a well-educated and more than mature man, I have no problem with telling you that I spit in your face, and that I am only sorry not to be able to meet you face to face, as it would be my utmost pleasure to severely modify it with my fists.

If Tom's passionate admirer thinks these gammonbots are rigged to cheat, he should play one of those buggy tigergammon bots.

[Tom]

If Tom's passionate admirer thinks these gammonbots are rigged to cheat, he should play one of those buggy tigergammon bots.

It would be very cruel of me to send him to tigergammon!   

Tom

[Reps]

Developers of Masters of Backgammon: http://itunes.apple.com/us/app/masters-of-backgammon-free/id466854342?mt=8

They will develop one for Android as well, to play online against iPhone, iPad, Mac users.

Their web http://2kbgames.com

[LuzerBot]

Got an email yesterday that the app will be available in the Android market the beginning of February.

[Reps]

Any other online backgammon games you can recommend?

[ifaesfu]

I have always played in FIBS with Backgammon Lite, from Android Market. I think this app it's in the market since July 2009 at least. I usually play in FIBS with this app, but I can't say anything about the matches against AI, as I haven't played more than 5 matches.
I knew about FIBS thanks to this Android app, so I'm very thankful to it.

[mikemaw]

I have an HTC mobile phone and play using Backgammon Lite. Playing against the computer is good competition on the top level and certainly does not cheat. The plus point for me is being able to play on Fibs. The mobile Fibs programme is very user friendly but of course does not have all the functionality of a computer programme. One thing I do not like is not being able to identify players who are bad. Now that you are barred from playing when you have 5 drops against your name I spend a lot of time barred. Reason being players who I play against and who drop just before I am about to win the match. It is a pity that fibs cannot identify who drops and only allocate the drop to them. Players who lose connection would be penalised but a much fairer situation would ensue.

As regards feeling aggrieved at unfair dice rolls I recently had a game where I was in a very strong position to win the game. He had one piece on the bar had only one place to re-enter. He threw the required dice and hit me with the second dice 18-1 shot. I could not re-enter in the three open spaces. He collected my remaining blot with his next dice. I could not re-enter again and again and he soon filled his table and proceded to win the game. No problem, that's backgammon. I should have tried not to leave him the 18-1 opportunity. The next game I threw two doubles and he nearly blew a gaskit. saying how bloody lucky I was and how fibs was fixed and the results of games prearranged etc etc etc. These are the sort of people I really wish to avoid. Trying to reason is not a solution.

[ifaesfu]

I can see sometimes in the very first of the list of ready players, who are the only ones showed in Backgammon Lite, Repbot and Tourneybot. Sometimes I have used it to check the reputation of some players. The problem is that the interface makes this query to take a long time and the players who invited you to play usually lose patience waiting for your answer and they invite other players.
About controlling who drops and who doesn't, I think it's very hard to do it. Think that a dropper doesn't need to leave a game to achieve his objective. He only has to not to move forcing you to leave for him.

[socksey]

Fibsboard probably has a gazillion threads concerning droppers.   

Patti's new fix of auto inserting you into a saved match when you log onto Fibs, if you're on ready, and if you're saved match opponent is ready, should eliminate a lot of the dropper problem, while messing with tourney players a bit.      Alas, some have to pay for other's folly.   

Back to topic, please.

socksey



We all need each other. - Leo Buscaglia

[rebayona]

Like ifaesfu, I discovered FIBS thanks to Odesys' android app. I was looking for an app to play backgammon, tried some but they were no challenging. Discovered this one and the online mode and since then I have never played against CPU.

Didn't know your perception of phone users. I understand your concerns, but at least some of us behave. I've tried fibszilla and javafibs and I have to say there's nothing like phone in terms of usability. It is limited, it is harder to play tournaments or leagues, but I still prefer it over PC apps.

[Reps]

Masters of Backgammon has been released for Android today:
https://play.google.com/store/apps/details?id=com.kb.mob

[Onlinebackgammonmoney]

Can you recommend anything for other platforms. Android is great, but I ditched it because of the interface. Now I am on windows phone 7, but the backgammon games on it are hilarious. Haven't found anything good yet blaah.

[Tom]

I use odesys backgammon on both Android and Windows

[Reps]

Any other good backgammon apps or programs?

[Onlinebackgammonmoney]

I got my hands on an Android device.

Last week I think I read on BGOnline that eXtremeGammon is developed for iOS. It was going to be limited to some point but still that would be the core engine that runs on the desktop. I think this means that we could very well see one for Android as Android based devices have more hardware processing power which is better for such a program.

[socksey]

If Tom's passionate admirer thinks these gammonbots are rigged to cheat, he should play one of those buggy tigergammon bots.

Give the tigergammon bots another try!  They have greatly improved.   

socksey



Variation Law - If you change lines (or traffic lanes), the one you were in will always move faster than the one you are in now (works every time).

[Tom]

Give the tigergammon bots another try!  They have greatly improved.   

socksey

I am also very sure that the TG bots "cheat" just as much as mine!

Dice are still Dice!

Tom

[jordansim28]

Hi I was thinking if you guys were allowed in the game of using scrabble dictionary than how many of you will use it to win the game.  As I consider this taking little help to vast our experience with words. Which strategy you guys use.
scrabble cheat board

[gugu]

Backgammon NJ is the strongest Android app out there, It's a very strong Nueral net.  It has a tutor mode and reports your ER at end of match.  It's $7.99

Alcacoops's "Backgammon Mobile" is built off of Gnu Backgammon.  No Hints, tutor, or analysis, but it will connect to Fibs and Tigergammon.  It plays pretty strong, but not too great with the cube.  It's free and has very small adds.

And, NO, they don't cheat...they're just that good!

[chriskay]

I have precisely the same problem as the person who posted this – I found the post via a Google search.  Unfortunately due to the nature of FIBS (as far as I understand it) everyone immediately thinks he is talking about playing with another person.  He isn't!  He is talking about playing against a computer using an Android or in my case an Apple app. 
I have tried numerous backgammon apps and they are all the same. The dice throws the computer makes are biased towards it landing on your unprotected pieces.  Also doubles are miraculously thrown by the computer towards the end of the game turning your winning position in any normal game into a loss. I can only assume that by clearly linking the dice throws to aid the computer the developers can dispense with the time and cost of writing any strategy.  This issue is confirmed by lots of reviews of these apps too! 
This is past annoying and makes all these apps unplayable unless you are a masochist. Maybe someone knows an app which genuinely has a random unbiased dice so that play against the computer is fair? 
Yes I know play against someone on line might be superior but a lot of us like to play when we are off line especially as wireless access is so poor in lots of the UK as well as on trains and planes. 

[josephmcg]

@chriskay you'll find that all the other apps cheat just as much as the ones you've had trouble with, sorry!   

Here's an article that might help you understand the cause of the problem:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Confirmation_bias

[samanthany]

You should get Backgammon - Real Players app for Android phones and tablets. Pleasant interface and hundreds of players all the time. It's the only app where you can play live backgammon tournaments. It's free. Hope you will enjoy 

[triadgod]

Developers of Masters of Backgammon: http://itunes.apple.com/us/app/masters-of-backgammon-free/id466854342?mt=8

They will develop one for Android as well, to play online against iPhone, iPad, Mac users.

Their web http://2kbgames.com

I've always loved playing Backgammon Masters on my iPhone. Good to know they've released on Android so that I can install it on my HTC. I've played it for over 2 years and I would say the dice rolls are fair. I use the paid version.