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General Tournament Rules

Started by Tom, February 03, 2012, 11:19:18 PM

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PersianLord

I appreciate the time and energy you invest in improving tourneys, Tom.

But the point is that we should also respect the choice made by one of the most revered veteran TDs of FIBS; i.e. Socksey. She has made the decision to enforce a new rule aiming at creating a more friendly environment for tourneys by prohibition of the blind command during her tourneys. Now, any player who has objections to this rule can simply avoid playing in her tourneys from now on and by doing so, expressing his/her discomfort with the new rule. It is like 'voting with your wallet' in market; if you don't like the brand, then don't buy it.

PL
The leftist's feelings of inferiority run so deep that he cannot tolerate any classification of some things as successful or superior and other things as failed or inferior. This also underlies the rejection by many leftists of the concept of mental illness and of the utility of IQ tests.  - T.K

moonshadow

Quote from: PersianLord on February 05, 2012, 07:38:53 AM
I don't get it why this debate has been started at all.

PL, you are incorrect, this hasn't been a debate and I'm surprised you failed to see the thread was started by Tom who was looking for a consensus on FIBS tourneys:

Quote from: Tom on February 03, 2012, 11:19:18 PM
With the variety of tournaments we have running I think we need to come up with a set General Rules that are common to all TourneyBot tourneys.

The dissonance continues:
Quote from: PersianLord on February 05, 2012, 07:38:53 AM
FIBS and anything FIBS have always been run on this eternal and sacred rule: suck it up or shut the f uck up!

PL, you are quite wrong on this as well.  First, compared to the last decade, the tenor of FIBs shouts in the last year has remarkably and dramatically improved. Its a far more friendly place.

Second, despite the current discussion and some confusion in the thread about blinding or not during tourney finals, there has been some consensus and effort among the TDs on how to run tourneys and so forth and it has not been a "suck it up or shut up" attitude. From my perspective, the overall organization and cooperation among the TDs about running tourneys seem much much better than the past and this is in spite of the fact there have been strong clashes between some of the TDs over various issues.

Third, Tom has continually asked for feedback on how to improve the robots and what features should or should not be included and I've never seen Tom say, "This is how it is, suck it up or shut up!"





diane

Quote from: moonshadow on February 05, 2012, 08:14:49 PMThird, Tom has continually asked for feedback on how to improve the robots and what features should or should not be included and I've never seen Tom say, "This is how it is, suck it up or shut up!"

Never indeed - thankyou moonshadow, the voice of reason and hope  :cool:
Never give up on the things that make you smile

moonshadow

Quote from: PersianLord on February 05, 2012, 02:59:22 PM
But the point is that we should also respect the choice made by one of the most revered veteran TDs of FIBS; i.e. Socksey. She has made the decision to enforce a new rule aiming at creating a more friendly environment for tourneys by prohibition of the blind command during her tourneys. Now, any player who has objections to this rule can simply avoid playing in her tourneys from now on and by doing so, expressing his/her discomfort with the new rule. It is like 'voting with your wallet' in market; if you don't like the brand, then don't buy it.

PL

No, PL,  that is not the point, though it is the point you wish to drive home and so I now suspect you of perhaps being a closet Leftist who conveniently moves the goal posts around to justify the argument.

The point Tom raised, and I think it a good one, is that there ought to be a general set of rules for all FIBs tourneys.

The point about socksey being revered or that she has wishes to run a tourney in a certain manner for whatever reason is not only irrelevant to Tom's reasoning for reaching a consensus but it is logically incorrect, as other tourney TDs may be equally revered and may think allowing blinding creates a "more friendly environment".

The other option which you neglect to point out is that perhaps socksey could join the TD consensus about blinding.





Tom

Thanks moonshadow for observing things I did not see, I guess I need to keep things at arms length or longer!

While I started looking that this because one specific rule bothered me, I still think we need a common set of rules as a basis for FIBS tourneys or atleast tourneys that are part of the TPR rankings.

At the risk of crossing threads, by biggest concern is that the rule (everyone please go look at it and vote!) does not seem consistent to me.

It is specific to Finals Matches only, if you have a strong player that people can learn from then why not prohibit blinding all together?

I Do Not Want answers to THAT question HERE!

My point is I think we need a group of people to review the rules and consider them from their past experience so we can make them solid
to enforce and easy for players (new and old) to underdstand.

THAT is what THIS thread is SUPPOSED to be about!!!

Tom

socksey

You still misquote me, diane, dear.  :yes:  This is what I said, "I believe that still makes me the longest running TD in the history of Fri3 who is still actively on Fibs at the very least."

FYI, I was instrumental in including you in the discussion on the rules and your input was noted.  I remember not having your email address, and your not willing to give it to me (for God only knows what reason) opting instead that I message you on Fibsboard which seemed quite reasonable to you, but was a distinct inconvenience for me.  Also, Tom and I have been in email and it is decided that he will reinstate Fri3 and Mini-Matches to TourneyBot.  We had so many issues with Tourneybot over the years, and the latest one two weeks ago sort of pushed me over the edge regarding TourneyBot.  But, I've cooled down now, and am willing to try one more time, so we shall see. 

Yes, I remember playing in all those tourneys.  I've been on Fibs for 13 years and was always enthusiastic in the tourneys.  However, I don't remember dates too well unless there is some other memorable event in my private life for a time-line.   :)  I was able to find all of the Mini-Matches history.  And, yes, old memories revisited was fun.  :)

Thanks for the links. You're always better at finding those than I.

socksey



Why pay money to have your family tree traced; go into politics and your opponents will do it for you.  ~Author Unknown





PersianLord

No Moonshadow, I did understand the reasoning behind Tom's decision in starting this thread and I still keep my position on this issue.

I think the TDs can set up whatever rules they deem fit to run their tourneys and if anyone is in discord with the rules, s/he simply should avoid playing in them. As my market example, if you think a certain brand doesn't satisfy you as a customer, then you stop buying it; aka voting with your wallet. You absolutely have no right in demanding the company's CEO to modify his products because YOU dislike them.

To me, F3 and Minis are brands and Socksey is the CEO of the company. If you don't like the recent modifications in the products, then don't buy them (don't enroll in F3 and Minis). Of course you can initiate a campaign to drag other customers to further your cause; i.e. forcing the CEO indirectly to undo the modifications in F3 and Minis. But to start a polemic campaign to force her directly to retreat is absolute nonsense and indeed sounds quite shamefully leftistic to me.

I should also emphasis that I for one am very happy with the new rule as it ensures that a bunch of sanctimonious hypocrites can not spoil the fun of playing in a tourney by banning other players from watching.

And no, I don't think we need a identical set of rules for all of FIBS tourneys. If a certain TD prefers to change/modify the rules of his/her tourney at any given time, s/he should be able to do it without having to consult other TDs, or any other person for that matter.

I also don't think understanding this requires a higher than average IQ.

PL

The leftist's feelings of inferiority run so deep that he cannot tolerate any classification of some things as successful or superior and other things as failed or inferior. This also underlies the rejection by many leftists of the concept of mental illness and of the utility of IQ tests.  - T.K

inim

#27
You paraphrase the good old "let people vote with their feet" principle in your posting. Well understood principle applied to many things fibs already. Easy. However, you keep ingoring results of the previous discussion in this thread. The main objective of this whole thing is to find out where agreement and dissent between TDs exist. In short: rules for all tourneys run on Tourneybot, the decision making process to come to such rules, and how rules are enforced.

Back in 1997 a tourney run by a lone hero with pen  and paper may have been "property". This is no longer the case anymore in 2012. Tourneys use TBot for automation, which is the result of 1000s of person hours of coding, brainstorming and communication by dozens of people.

Tourneys can run and often do run without a human attending them. The main purpose of a TD today is no longer to keep timers and results. People not even need to be aware who has admin priviledges for a particular tourney, nor whether one or more admins are logged in at all. TBot offers a uniform interface maintained by a consenting team, at least according to Tom it should. The "brand" thus is not what socksey alone defines as long as her tourneys operate as affiliates of TourneyBot Corp, so to say.

There now is this case with one dissenting TD trying to enfoce ideosyncratic rules on top of the common set, without consensus. As a result, depending on which TD happens to be logged in, playing in the same tourney may take place under different rule sets for end users. This causes all sort of problems, obviously. And this is the problem Tom tries to solve in this discussion.

Here are a few selected points where you IMHO ignore previous results.

Quote from: PersianLord on February 06, 2012, 10:14:21 AM
TDs can set up whatever rules they deem fit to run their tourneys

We have a situation where a minority of TDs (socksey) is in dissent with a majority (Tom, diane, KMA). There seems to be no mechanism to remove this stallmate and the whole TD group is at the risk of breaking apart, potentially damaging tourneys over "ownership" questions.

Quote from: PersianLord on February 06, 2012, 10:14:21 AM
To me, F3 and Minis are brands and Socksey

For many others F3 is not. See the extensive postings on the tourney history above.

Quote from: PersianLord on February 06, 2012, 10:14:21 AM
don't enroll in F3 and Minis

The issue here is that socksey reacted to something she perceives as a problem in one particular tourney with sanctions affecting all tourneys. This again was overridden by Tom, using his admin priviledges for tourneybot. Not enrolling doesn't solve a problem on this level. Both sockey's and Tom's actions may or may not overstep the priviledges of a single TD.

Quote from: PersianLord on February 06, 2012, 10:14:21 AM
I also don't think understanding this requires a higher than average IQ.
This whole complex of closely related problems has social, organizatorial, technical, interpersonal and probably more dimensions. The fact you consider a solution to be simple mainly shows me you do not understand the problem(s) fully yet.

The goal of this whole thread is not to find an "easy" solution by declaring full victory for one positon. That would break apart the tourney system. What is needed is a feasible and acceptable for all TDs version of socksey's proposed new rule. It may turn out such a compromise does not exist. But hope is not lost yet.
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PersianLord

No inim, the issue is very simple but you prefer to make it appear complicated for obvious reasons.

I realize the fact that TourneyBot is the result of hours of Tom's technical endeavor and therefore, I admit that this Bot is  completely a property of Tom. And we all know that Tom, being in discord with Socksey's new rule, have once barred her from using TB. Again fine, and as Socksey made it clear, she will use challenge.com to handle her tourneys instead. This clearly shows how strongly she puts credit in her new rule for running her tourneys, as TB seems to be a much smoother device to run any tourney than challenge.com .

QuoteWe have a situation where a minority of TDs (socksey) is in dissent with a majority (Tom, diane, KMA). There seems to be no mechanism to remove this stallmate and the whole TD group is at the risk of breaking apart, potentially damaging tourneys over "ownership" questions.

I don't see any problem here. Mind you, IMO dissent is a blessing, rather than a threat. We, as humans, are very diversified creatures and have various, oftentimes opposing, opinions on many issues. So, why to crash the minority vote and impose the will of majority on them?!

Let us celebrate our diversity and allow each TD decide how to run his/her own tourney in whatever way s/he deems fit. There will be no falling apart of the tourney system.

QuoteThe issue here is that socksey reacted to something she perceives as a problem in one particular tourney with sanctions affecting all tourneys. This again was overridden by Tom, using his admin priviledges for tourneybot.

Then the problem IS solved. If I trust you in narrating the story honestly, which I do, Socksey wanted to impose her will on the majority by enforcing the her preferred rule in all of tourneys and this led Tom to reacting by barring her of using TB. Now, Socksey can enforce this rule (No blinding) just in her own tourneys (F3 and Minis). Doesn't sound like a drama to me.


QuoteFinally, the goal of this whole thing is not to find an "easy" solution by declaring full victory for one side. That would break apart the tourney system.

I don't want a full victory for any side. Hell I don't see this as a debate/war at all. A certain TD (i.e. Socksey) with a brilliant record of running tourneys, stretching back to the past millennium, has decided to introduce and enforce a new rule (No blinding) in her tourneys. Now a certain number of people, feeling inconvenient with this rule, want her to undo the modifications she's made so far.

The only war I see her is occurring in Socksey's own mind: whether to continue enforcing the new rule in her tourneys or not!

Whatever she decides I will respect, even though I personally would like to see the new rule continue.

PL
The leftist's feelings of inferiority run so deep that he cannot tolerate any classification of some things as successful or superior and other things as failed or inferior. This also underlies the rejection by many leftists of the concept of mental illness and of the utility of IQ tests.  - T.K

Tom

Quote from: PersianLord on February 06, 2012, 12:03:39 PM
barred her from using TB

I did no such thing.

She asked me to make the temporary ban automatic and I refused, because she  could manually add the ban each week
she wanted it in force.

tom

PersianLord

#30
Well, since I am no TD, I've decided to withdraw from this debate. I think TDs should solve this issue themselves.

PL
The leftist's feelings of inferiority run so deep that he cannot tolerate any classification of some things as successful or superior and other things as failed or inferior. This also underlies the rejection by many leftists of the concept of mental illness and of the utility of IQ tests.  - T.K

Tom

After discussions with TDs who actively use TourneyBot I have a set of rules we can live with.

They will be announced when a player registers so there is no question which rules are in effect.

They are:

Common Rules
     1. Players are expected to give tourney matches the highest priority and save any other match they may be playing when their tourney match is ready.
     2. Opponents may not use any aids to evaluate moves this includes getting coaching from a watcher directly or indirectly. PIP counts may be enabled.
     3. The Opponents have the right to play their match with no disruptions. Watchers should use the "whisper" command to comment. If you use kibitz, shout about the match, or talk directly to the players, you can expect to be blinded and/or gagged by either player.
     4. Exceptions to rule #3: - The TD may briefly interrupt a match for tournament-related issues that can't wait until the match is finished.
     5. A Watcher may be gagged or blinded by either opponent without any explanation. The TD may not be gagged or blinded by a player, unless they are violating Rule #3.

F3 and Mini-Matches Specific Rule

     6. Blinding anyone for the tournament finals is prohibited, unless they are specifically violating Rule #3. The tournament is for the enjoyment and learning experience for all.

After talking to the group I decided that Socksey and I needed to come to agreement first.

We came up with the rules listed above.

I then have presented them to the other TDs via email.

They were mostly well received, one had reservations about some aspects and one has not replied.

For FIBS discussion I deem it a huge success!

They are posted here http://tourneybot.fibs.com/rules.html

Thanks to Socksey and Patti for their invaluable help!

Tom

Tom

Right now FIBS is having some DNS problems, some can't log in... the the Rules link (above) is also having the same problems.

I am sure it will be fixed shortly

tom
ps. I can't even log in to FIBS right now!

mpetch

If you can't login try using the current fibs.com IP address instead of "fibs.com". At present the IP address for fibs.com is 64.201.248.215 .

moonshadow

Quote from: Tom on February 13, 2012, 12:43:33 PM
After discussions with TDs who actively use TourneyBot I have a set of rules we can live with.

Good job on getting a uniform set of rules for the tourneys.