No Blinding TD

[Tom]

Today TruckerGirl violated the rules and blinded 2 TDs.

She has been warned and if it happens again she will be banned for 24hrs.
Additional violations will cause 1, 2, 4, 8 week bans.

log of the events

I hear that KMA got banned and come to check it out:

truckergirl kibitzes: i am playing
truckergirl kibitzes: who is nto playing
athodyd_i kibitzes: your pace is highly interrupted.
truckergirl kibitzes: tom
You kibitz: yes?
truckergirl kibitzes: don't push me
truckergirl kibitzes: i know kma sent you up
truckergirl kibitzes: so make your choice
You kibitz: now is not the time to discuss it
athodyd_i kibitzes: who are you talking to?
You kibitz: you are playing a match
truckergirl kibitzes: say hello
truckergirl kibitzes:  period
toolmaster kibitzes: hello.
toolmaster kibitzes: period.

I am then blinded

The final results...

Code Select Expand

TourneyBot shouts: Tampa Sevens at Nine (#6187): FINALS (9pts) truckergirl 7 vs toolmaster 6
TourneyBot shouts: Tampa Sevens at Nine (#6187): FINALS (9pts) truckergirl (Cube 2) 7 vs toolmaster 6
TourneyBot shouts: *** Tampa Sevens at Nine (#6187): Round 3 (9 pts): truckergirl (1715) vs toolmaster (1594) ***
TourneyBot shouts: For Full Bracket see http://fibs.challonge.com/6187
TourneyBot shouts: *** Congratulations to truckergirl, winner of Tampa Sevens at Nine (#6187)! ***
TourneyBot shouts: *** Congratulations to toolmaster, the runner-up of Tampa Sevens at Nine (#6187)! ***
You shout: Trucker Girl:
You shout: The Tourney rules state:
You shout: 3.  The Opponents have the right to play their match with no disruptions. Watchers should use the "whisper" command to comment. If you use kibitz, shout about the match, or talk directly to the players, you can expect to be blinded and/or gagged by either player.  
You shout: 4.  Exceptions to rule #3: - The TD may briefly interrupt a match for tournament-related issues that can't wait until the match is finished.  
You shout: 5. A Watcher may be gagged or blinded by either opponent without any explanation. The TD may not be gagged or blinded by a player, unless they are violating Rule #3.  
You shout: I did not interrupt the match. When you talked to me I did respond and you blinded me anyway.
You shout: That violates rule 5
You shout: This is your Warning. I know you clearly understand the rules If it happens again you will be banned for 24hrs, a second time for a week
You shout: Am I clear enough?
[snip]
truckergirl shouts: you are saying that we cannot say hello gl to the players we are watching???
truckergirl shouts: or respond if they chat with us?
You shout: no I am saying you can not blind a TD for not being Disruptive
truckergirl shouts: well if somoe e doens't say hello i find it very disruptive
You shout: The TD may not be gagged or blinded by a player, unless they are violating Rule #3.
truckergirl shouts: i do not demand they wish me gl
You shout: if it is a TD then GET OVER IT
You shout: If it happens again YOU WILL BE BANNED FOR 24 HRS - PERIOD
You shout: all your ids


The point is that the TDs for a given tourney can not be blinded or gagged they need to be able to help run the tourney.

If a TD watches that can not be deemed disruptive.

I felt sorry for TG's opponent, it was his first tourney on FIBS, I talked to him and encouraged him to come back.

If you don't like the TD and don't let them watch normally, you will need to let them watch if they are a TD.
If they become disruptive (kibitzing when not talked to) then they can be gagged.

But a TD by there very nature should not be disruptive or negative in any way, they should do what they can to insure
the tourney experience is positive and enjoyable.

Tom

[Tom]

In an email to socksey I said:

Mar-08 18:43:04 socksey Award Win to truckergirl
Mar-08 18:43:04 match_report: Winner truckergirl def loser dorbel aka dorbel Len 3 / 3
Mar-08 18:43:05 truckergirl: You won your match against dorbel in Round 3 of F3 (#6208).
Mar-08 18:43:05 dorbel: You lost your match against truckergirl in Round 3 of F3 (#6208).
Mar-08 18:43:05 truckergirl: You have advanced to Round 4 of F3 (#6208).
Mar-08 18:43:05 dorbel: You have been eliminated from F3 (#6208). Better luck next time!

Socksey,

That was a violation of the rules, you did not have the right to demand to watch that match, it was not the finals
so the old rule 6 was not in effect.

This has also caused Patti to say that BLINDING is always allowed so the NO BLIND FINALS is no longer a rule.

When diane misused her TD powers, I removed her as a TD for a week.
The same will be done for you.

Tom

This action and the resulting shout storm that followed caused Patti to rule that Tourney Rules can not require No Blinding.
She did say that a TD may ask for an unblind if there is an issue with the match that needs to be resolved.

[diane]

I am pleased with this outcome, Tourneys were routinely used as weapons for those so unpleasant they were gagged by a lot of players. They took and used TD status to get around those gags.

It is fairly easy to play in, and TD a tourney with gags in place. I argued against the no gag rule at the time - so this is a win for me.

It will be significantly easier for TDs now too, where so much of the TD function is automated and done by the Bot.

[socksey]

It's really too bad that Patti listens to the "drama" as she calls it.  It's also too bad that she must interfere in tourney business since she does not have any other part in them.

It has always been a rule with my tourneys and any that I've ever noticed that the TD has never been allowed to be blinded.  It's an understood, necessary, and been said that the TD not be blinded. 

Before anyone gets on that bandwagon again about this........when I say 'my tourneys', I mean tourneys that I am running, not that they are exclusively MY tourneys although that may be the case in future.

I don't know why dorbel chose to blind me yesterday.  What he was saying (and assuming) in shouts was all wrong.  My intentions were not as he imagined.  All I wanted to do was watch.  I would have been watching vegas_vic, as I usually do, but vic was waiting to play the next round.  I did nothing to be blinded for except what was in dorbel's own mind.  He had a warning and did not respond by unblinding me but by degrading me instead, so he was forfeited.  Further, as I recall, dorbel has stated previously in shout, that he would not play in my tourneys since he would not abide by my 'no blind' rule.  Another reason I was aghast by his behavior yesterday.

I will no longer host Fri3 because Tom removed me as TD, apparently to punish me for overstepping my bounds as TD in his opinion, a slap on the hand, as it were, for a week.  Since I first wrote this, I understand that I have also been removed from Mini-Matches by Tom without a courtesy notice to me.  No matter.

Hence, I will no longer be hosting any tourney using TourneyBot for reason of not having control, and being under the unreasonable thumb of Tom who consistently refused to remove Fri3 and Mini-Matches from Tourneybot, while Tourneybot  continues to have the wrong timeout issue.  Rare as it happens now, it is still an issue.  It really doesn't matter to anyone except the person being timed out wrong and that it can cause the outcome of the tourney to be compromised.

Patti has put the kibosh on my running my own tourneys with the no blind rule on Fibs, therefore, I have no recourse except to run them on tigergammon.com which I have no problem with at all.  To log on there see:  http://www.fibsboard.com/feedback-discussion/tigergammon-ready-and-waiting/

The no blinding rule will apply to my new tourneys, except if a disturbance is made, for all matches, not just the final.  If you cannot abide by this rule, then you need not play.  If you do not abide by this rule and are playing anyway, you will be banned from any further of my tourneys.  The rule will be enforced quickly with no fanfare. 

Meanwhile, I hold no animosity toward Tom, sixtie, dorbel, inim, or Patti.  They have a right to their opinions and I respect that.

Hope to see you other tourney players on tigergammon for my new tourneys!

socksey



Love is, above all, the gift of oneself. - Jean Anouilh

[NIHILIST]

This is downright laughable. I thought FIBS had become a kinder, gentler environment once troublemakers like Vic and I were de-shouted. From this thread it seems like the clowns who were pushing for a heavier hand against FIBS's rogue element, and got their way, now can't seem to get along.

FIBS has become a bad version of THE HONEYMOONERS, with Patti in the role of Alice Kramden and inim and dorbel starring as Ralph Kramden and Ed Norton.

With all deference to inim, I can also see him and dorbel in the roles of Colonel Klink and Sergeant Schultz in the FIBS version of HOGAN'S HEROES. inim would have to play the role of Sergeant ( " I know nothing " ) Schultz since dorbel knows everything.

Bob

[Tom]

Socksey has been added back as a moderator of the F3 tourneys.

Tom

[jackdaddy]

We will all sleep better now...

[vegasvic]

LOL@jack

Serious note can i ask a question ? why is socksey being put on and off these tourneys she has been running now over 7 years ?
She has given her time and effort in fibsboard from day one . and gets trashed because of her friendship with me .
Secondly all she has made a simple request from you tom  , she wants to be able to run the friday 3 and mini , manual like luckydice does bago .
WHY IS SHE NOT ALLOWED ?
Where i think everyone enjoys it more when there is a TD around , that promotes the tourney and is there to take care or problems .

Why ostracize her because she does not care to use a bot to run the tourneys she has been running for ages .
just askin is all .. because when she ran the tourneys they had people in them  16 to 20 plus playing .

[moonshadow]

Serious note can i ask a question ? why is socksey being put on and off these tourneys she has been running now over 7 years ?

All the world's a stage,
And all the men and women merely players;
They have their exits and their entrances,
And one man in his time plays many parts,
His acts being seven ages. At first, the infant,
Mewling and puking in the nurse's arms.
Then the whining schoolboy, with his satchel
And shining morning face, creeping like snail
Unwillingly to school. And then the lover,
Sighing like furnace, with a woeful ballad
Made to his mistress' eyebrow. Then a soldier,
Full of strange oaths and bearded like the pard,
Jealous in honor, sudden and quick in quarrel,
Seeking the bubble reputation
Even in the cannon's mouth. And then the justice,
In fair round belly with good capon lined,
With eyes severe and beard of formal cut,
Full of wise saws and modern instances;
And so he plays his part. The sixth age shifts
Into the lean and slippered pantaloon,
With spectacles on nose and pouch on side;
His youthful hose, well saved, a world too wide
For his shrunk shank, and his big manly voice,
Turning again toward childish treble, pipes
And whistles in his sound. Last scene of all,
That ends this strange eventful history,
Is second childishness and mere oblivion,
Sans teeth, sans eyes, sans taste, sans everything.

As You Like It, Act II, Scene VII
by William Shakespeare

[Patti]

I made this statement last week, and put it in the MOTD this morning.

Anyone on FIBS has the right to blind and/or gag anyone for any reason.  Tournament rules may not override that.

The only exception is when someone has a "business need" to be unblocked.  For example, if there's a dispute in a tournament and the TD is called in, then they need to be able to take care of the issue.  If that happens and someone is blinded or gagged, that needs to be undone long enough for them to resolve the issue.

[inim]

The only exception is when someone has a "business need" to be unblocked.  For example, if there's a dispute in a tournament and the TD is called in, then they need to be able to take care of the issue. 

The fibs logic makes sure all moves are legal, the tourneybot timers make sure nobody delays matches. The blind/gag commands make sure each player can deal with trolling himself.

I fail to see the need for a TD to rule into matches. I see a TD's job in scheduling issues and timers for matches. Once a match has started, i can not think of any conflict a TD could be needed for. On the contrary, the ability to call in a TD any time and by this force yet another futile discussion about arbitrary topics is a loophole your definition opens.

Could you please give an example of what disputes there can be in a tourney match which need a TD to deal with them?

[diane]

I am 99.9% with you here inim - I guess the only one I can think of deliberate slow play. Even that doesnt bother me as much as someone who is obnoxious in the extreme getting to come and watch my match  I am assuming there will be almost no need for this loophole to be used - but also sure, those who like drama and are much more creative than me at making it happen will find something to warrant a TD interference 

[NIHILIST]

WOW, Patti, inim and Diane in agreement !

Kinda like Larry and Curly agreeing with Moe.

Bob

[KissMyAss]

I can see another couple of situations warranting TD intervention...

1    New players copping abuse, and they don't know about gagging or blinding.  
2    Players on clock when the other opponent is at fault for the match not starting/stalling.  

TD's are still required, no matter how much all you techie types love automation.    

Hugs



ps:   i have yet to see a bot make each player feel welcum, or chat to players who are waiting for matches, to keep them entertained while they wait.   

[inim]

I can see another couple of situations warranting TD intervention...

All correct points, the TD is needed to market a tourney, make sure matches start in time and deal with scheduling, and help noobs. However, I used the wording "after a match has started" for a reason. Neither can the TD at the command level influence a match, nor is there any need for doing it. During his 3 month FIBS hiatus, sixtie technically ran dozens of tourneys - without any presence or problems. FIBS has > 1 million matches per year, and 99.999999% of them are not babysitted by a TD or anybody else. The system simply is running very smoothly meanwhile

So the useful limit I see for a TD's intervention power is the match. Outside, (s)he is in charge. Inside, it is between the two players, and the two players only.

[vegasvic]

Yes i had a problem in a Friday 3 , when Kari was running it .

Will not name the players , but  i had cubed and there were watchers and the player said " resign?"

and i stopped my play and called in the TD , and the watchers all left .. and i asked the  TD what does this mean Resign?

I was told  vic if you do not move you are out of the tourney , i know her and she would not be asking to resign .

After this i was banned from Friday3 tourney for years , carried on by the second TD diane.

I did not see anyone say how unfair this was .

So move on !! and not play the tourneys she runs , its only 2 out of the 12 that run on fibs .

I think LuckyDice has the same rules and feelings about this .

[jackdaddy]

To paraphrase an oft used saying of dorbel, I don't know why someone would want to play in a tourney where they are obviously not wanted...

[vegasvic]

The Woman just wants a OPEN tourney if she is to give her time and effort to hold .

You dont like it ?  build your own .

When i asked patti about inim and tom banning jack and pck and dea , and what is is the diff if a TD banns a player from her or his tourney ?
she said this , i hope she does not mind me posting a private tell .

Patti says: And tourney directors can say who can't play in their tournaments.  They can't, however, force people not to blind or gag others.

So Tom and inim , you can ban pck , dea and jack ?

she can ban you and dorbel .

No DRAMA baby !!!

[dorbel]

A non dramatic reply, putting my own point of view, rather than have others post my views for me.
I agree that a TD should be able to exclude anybody without giving a reason, just as I have consistently maintained that players should be able to blind anybody without giving a reason. Without this a TD would be obliged to run a tournament for people that he/she finds unpleasant, likewise players would be forced to accept watchers in that category.
If TD socksey wants to exclude me, I can moan a bit as is my right, but she shouldn't be forced to include me in.
I also agree as it happens that a TD should be permitted to watch any match, but that has now gone by the board after one bit of drama too many. I can think of instances where a TD might need to watch in order to adjudicate a match where a player is being abusive, but that situation is covered by the new rules.
I do like to play tournaments and I think it is fair to say that 99% of the people in them enjoy playing me. I did think that after (a) socksey had announced that she would no longer direct tournaments and (b) said in the forum that she didn't bear me a grudge I might have been able to play mini matches. Apparently not, so it goes!
Is this a good time to draw a line under all this crap and play some bg? I'm tired of the drama, have been for years actually, anybody else agree?

[jackdaddy]

If you're so tired of the drama, and have been for years, why is it you continue to shout antagonistic comments, many times unprovoked, many times against those who can't shout? Are you saying you will no longer do that?

[vegasvic]

When hell freezes over jack , its ok he does it with such witty and sarcasim like  moonshadow .

Fine Dorbel then just drop the subject .

You and inim have made this a big bruhaha in shouts and got even tom to ban socksey from the tourney she has been running for 7-10 years .

And tom misses the point and so to both of you , even if it was for 24 hours .

SHE WANTED A OPEN TOURNEY LIKE LUCKYDICE !!

No you guys wanted to make a point that she is nothing but a body that is running it and Tom is the big hancho and pushed it with him .

I recall most of you gave KMA  crap when she wanted to start a new tourney .. and she host it her self and has made it very popular .

BOTS cant do it only humans can . bot is nice to have around when the TD can not make it and the bot can carry on.

lets just drop the subject , if socksey does come back and run the mini and friday 3 , we will all be better off for it ,

And anyone not liking the idea she is TD can boycott it as resh has shouted , and the the tourneys she runs will die .

[dorbel]

Is this a good time to draw a line under all this crap and play some bg?

Looks like two "no" votes then.

[jackdaddy]

The only way you can look at my response as a no vote, is if you aren't agreeing to stop the unprovoked attacks...

[dorbel]

This is known as the, "When did you stop beating your wife?" line of questioning! Clearly a no vote.

[jackdaddy]

As is your answer clearly a no. Denial ain't just a river in Africa...

[vegasvic]

Dorbel, when  we vacation on the beach most summers there was this red algae that would come to shore and we used to call it the Red Tide .

And man if you went swimming in it , it would sting like hell .

Is your "Red Mist" something like that ? when it comes over you do you ichi ? 

[KissMyAss]

Perhaps this thread has run its course now.   

Its degenerated from being an informative link to be updated about changes, to everyone whacking each other over the head with verbal balloons - filled with hot air and not much substance. 

Take a deep breath, release it slowly, and step away from fibsboard people.    If you don't like someone, don't talk to them.  Simple.  Walk away.   If you do this, you win. 

[jeeves]

Isn't this all rather academic?    I was told that she'd resigned as TD of TourneyBot-related tournaments

[vegasvic]

No its not , she wants to run the two tourneys manual , like luckydice .

[diane]

Those two tourneys are years old, were started by another fibster, for FIBs. They have been run by many fibsters across the years, and in all events belong to FIBs, not any one person. They were the first, and always intended to be run by the bot, regardless of who is here to supervise and interact with the players.

They absolutely should be with the fleet of tourneys on Tourneybot. This is not any kind of ego trip, popularity contest or anything else, it is just fun for all Fibsters.

There are options to do other things 'on your own', if that is what you prefer, rather than with the rest of fibs - not least of which is run tournaments on Tigergammon, which I am sure is happening and doing splendidly. So there is no deal, except to cause and stir up drama.

This thread was done about 20 posts ago, and I wont revisit it.

[jackdaddy]

This thread was done about 20 posts ago, and I wont revisit it.

Did you learn this tactic on your debate team?

[inim]

[socksey]

who locked this?  i thought inim's train wreck was priceless! ))

[stog]

i locked it as it had degenerated, and inim's pic ably signalled that!