Fibs Shout Archive

[adrian]

My main concern is that whilst it is bad enough that these type of insults are present in the transient forum of shouts - I dont want to see them kept for posterity - to continue to offend and hurt those they were aimed at.

 Pain is in our minds. Men forget in next ten minutes , women remember everything forever!    

[adamosad]

and maybe after life too, Adrian    

[diane]

 Pain is in our minds. Men forget in next ten minutes , women remember everything forever!  

Erm, have you met don???    

[adamosad]

Gammboy, I'm still waitting an answer about the repbot statistics... I really need a reputation time variant variable for a future project

[gammboy]

Gammboy, I'm still waitting an answer about the repbot statistics... I really need a reputation time variant variable for a future project

Sorry.  Missed that post.  Reputation is a function of repbot, and is not part of FIBS' regular data  stream, and so I don't currently collect it.   I could have my bot query repbot and collect that data as well, but I would want to speak to repbot's master (burper?) before doing so.  I don't want to cause any problems for repbot with the volume of queries my bot  could potentially generate.

GB

[adamosad]

So if you find the repbot's creator and answer you positively, is it ok with you to add this info into your bot's database?

[inim]

Collecting shouts is very easy technically.  I can not control private archiving, but publishing them is another thing, which i strongly object. You may try to open such a service, but you need a clear opt in or opt out mechanism, as you do not hold any rights on shouted material. That right is with the respective owners. This is true even more as fibsboard is commercial, i.e. making money with advertising. Thus:

I hereby prohibit anybody from publishing material i shouted. Do whatever you like with your shouts, i demand my shouts not to be published. Public material in no way is free to use, thus the argument it is a public shout anyway is wrong. This is backed by european law on intellectual property and protection of privacy.

inim

P.S. Technically speaking, I will blind and gag any collecting bot on sight.

[diane]

I agree - tell me who - by courtesy - and I too will gag and blind   My conversations are by their nature of the moment - not to be kept.

[inim]

I agree - tell me who - by courtesy - and I too will gag and blind 

I just checked it out, the bad news is there is no technical way to prevent your shouts from being logged. GAG and BLIND do not affect the CLIPS protocol. The well known "permagag" feature of clients like JavaFibs is only local in nature. That means that they suppress unwanted shouts only at the display level, the server still broadcasts them to all (including you).

inim

[socksey]

Public material in no way is free to use, thus the argument it is a public shout anyway is wrong. This is backed by european law on intellectual property and protection of privacy.

So, are you going to come to prosecute me in the USA, hire an attorney in my State, and let me be tried by a jury of my peers?

You aren't being private when you shout something 100+ ppl can hear/see.  Fess up, take it like a man.  If you said it, you should be prepared to eat it.  

socksey



"For it was not into my ear you whispered, but into my heart. It was not my lips you kissed, but my soul." - Judy Garland  

[inim]

No socks, this has do do nothing with "take it like a man". I sum up:

1. Publication

Fibsboard is a "publication", which is legally way different from shout. Basically it is a permanent storage vs. a temporary. The right to copy something is called copyright, which is infringed by making my shouts permanent.

2. Privacy

Under european law, unlike under US law, you actually own your data. Thus anyone who wanna make use of it must ask your permission ("opt in").  Fibsboard is located in the Netherlands and thus subject to EU law. I explicitly denied that permission.

3. Editorial responsibility

The publisher of the material is legally responsible for the content. Under german law it e.g. is a criminal offense to deny the holocaust. Thus if someone did so in shout, the editorial team (webrunner, socksey) are guilty of publishing illegal content.

4. Uselessness

There is no use in making shouts public. Anybody who want's to archive them can do so in a 20 line script. It's trivial.

Summary: Log what you want, but don't publish it.

inim

[socksey]

I could have my bot query repbot and collect that data as well, but I would want to speak to repbot's master (burper?) before doing so.

Burper was Repbot's creator, but he gave it to someone else.  I'm sure burper would be happy to help, tho, if you can catch him, or leave a message for him.  

socksey



"Platonic love is like an inactive volcano." - Andre Prevost

[adamosad]

I think the administrator now is Avik. You can catch him or leave him a message too...

[BladeRunner]

some people may be afraid of harrassing (*ehem diane*) others at fibs, and therefore a reluctance of keeping logs of shouts, and if anybody sues somebody else over FIBS issues, i don't think judge judy will really care about it...
keeping track of shouts would clarify a lot of things for the major sysop
socksey, as usual, is always in the money!! (for eurofibsters: she is alway right in her appreciations)

[inim]

keeping track of shouts would clarify a lot of things for the major sysop

To clarify that: the "major sysop" Patti surely has a log to safeguard herself in case of legal issues. If the server was in Europe, she was obliged by law to have one. She wisely does not publish them. Due to the CLIPS protocol, however, anybody can log shouts and some data regarding log in, and start/end of matches. This is not possible with any commercial server I am aware of, also for good reasons.

The current discussion is about: (1) a user run bot which (2) records shouts and (3) posts them on a web server. This is third party compared to Patti. All i oppose is (3).

I am aware of 3 parties interested in data collection from fibs:

1) adamosad wants to use the material collected for his thesis
2) gammboy is new to bot programming and fascinated by what can be done.
3) some here see a shout archive may have a positive effect on shouters

I am not willing to sell a good as precious as my privacy for any of the above mentioned reasons. Informational self-determination is a constitutional right  in Europe, which is a valuable achivement.

All a public web based log will achive is spiders like google will index the material and our conversation will become world visible. If you open the bottle, the jinny is out. Is that what you want? For the above mentioned requirements there are easier solutions without the price.

1) Adam can keep non public logs and still use it (in an anonymous way) for his research
2) gammboy may cowork with adamosad on their common hobby data-mining, eventually yielding academic output even.  Any existing bot can be made a logging bot by adding 20 lines.  Any programmer can write the proposed bot in less than a day, maybe in less than an hour.
3) It would be easy to make a log available to administrators  (whoever that would be). It does not need a bot for that, nor to make it searchable on the web. The problem here is access control,, not collecting the data.

I know a lot about data mining, hands on. That's why i so strongly oppose the proposition. There is no harmless data, even if you have nothing to hide like me.  

inim

P.S.Directive 95/46/EC is the applicable law for a EU based server like fibsboard.  US law, which is much weaker (not only since the infamous patriot act), is not applicable. That would be different if the publication was done at a US based server like fibs.com.

[alluring]

I really don't care what you do with my shouts, nor do I give a damn, nor am I going to change the way I talk in shout. If you want to record my shouts go ahead, and if you want to hear me say it again, just ask me in shout and I will say it over and over if you didn't get it the first time.
Oh and if you want a tape of my shouts just send $19.99 and you can hear me in your dreams lol


With all my shouts awaiting you.....Alluring

[socksey]

LOL  Alluring, a girl after my own heart!  D**n the torpedos!  Full steam ahead!  

I just had a thought.  What if we could make the shouts anonymous somehow, numbered, perhaps.  Example:

Shouter #1 says:  STFU!  
Shouter #2 says:  f*****g, fibs!
Shouter #2 says:  he has one opening, 3.  he rolls 3 3, 6 6, 5 5, 6 6, 4 4.

We Fibbers would all know who those were, but the "world" wouldn't.  Well, it's a thought!    

socksey



"After The Wizard Of Oz I was typecast as a lion, and there aren't all that many parts for lions." - Bert Lahr

[adamosad]

Well I had the same thought with you Socksey. Collecting the data for rating, exper, rep of each player in fibs through time, and coding each one as player 1, player 2 etc...

This way maybe it's the best and inim may like it too  

[gammboy]

LOL - Inim, you kill me.

Suppose you walk into a crowded bar in Germany, and shout "FIRE!" causing everyone to panic.  Your local newspaper "published" an account of the event saying "German resident, Inim, shouted "FIRE!" at 3:06am yesterday, causing panic."  You're telling me, that you would have a reasonable copyright infringement action against the newspaper for quoting what you said IN PUBLIC?

Suppose you stand up on a soapbox in Trafalgar Square, and deliver an anti-Bush speech to all who happen to be within earshot, and the local news channel is there.  They play their film of you on the 6 O'Clock News.  You have a reasonable action against them?

Have you forbade Yahoo from including your postings to usenet in their archive?  Do you think you would have a reasonable action against them if they refused?

I admit, I am completely ignorant of European law, but I am SO glad US law doesn't work this way.  Here, people can be held responsible for what they say and do in Public.  Here, if you say something, you better mean it.  Regardless, after Diane's post early in this trhread, I have decided that If I ultimately make this project public, I will do so on a US host.

I won't even start to get into the fact that you shout on Fibs under an ALIAS.  How could you even prove to the court that it was YOU who shouted what you did?  Particularly since Fibs logs will show "Inim" logging on from IPs in Germany and the US within minutes of each other.  

You yourself have asserted, and proved that IP logs are useless.  Therefore, you cannot even prove that you are Inim. Do you really think any court in any land would take you seriously?  I doubt it, and I know for sure no US court would.

Having said all that, I respect your opinion and will consider it carefully before making any decision on this matter.

GB

PS  If you figure out that reverse-gag thing, where you can keep people from hearing what you shout, please let me know.

[diane]

I really don't care what you do with my shouts, nor do I give a damn, nor am I going to change the way I talk in shout. If you want to record my shouts go ahead, and if you want to hear me say it again, just ask me in shout and I will say it over and over if you didn't get it the first time.


With all my shouts awaiting you.....Alluring

Thats because you dont say extremely nasty things to people alluring  - and consequently, I wouldnt object to any shouts of yours being published - it would be fun.  So would the majority of fibsters.  And as for my harrassing shouts, since they are mainly addressed to droppers *ahem, bladerunner (replicant)*, That would also be a useful archive for dropper information.
My objections are long term storage of offensive material - best not said once, let alone published.  Since I cant speak for others - I can only ask my shouts arent published - and would do that - in order to make it more difficult for the shout log as a whole to be published.
I do not wander round with a tape recorder all day to keep my conversations so I can remember what I said - I use my memory - what is there - ever - in shouts to make it worth keeping Hugs all round??