Game 1, move 1, Readers 2-1?

[Zorba]

Welcome to the FIBSBoard online match number 5!

Opponent will be dorbel this time.

I've switched to eXtreme Gammon as my favourite bg program, I hope you and me can get used to it.
Let's see how this goes, I haven't followed the OLM here lately so I'm nont sure what routines you're all used to by now. I'm quite busy at times so there might be the occasional delay. Hope you enjoy anyway.

XGID=-b----E-C---eE---c-e----B-:0:0:1:21:0:0:0:5:10

[ah_clem]

Since we're starting a new match, do we have to keep using the useless spoiler tag? 

A couple of months ago I tried to find something I remembered reading on one of these threads and couldn't find it after three days of looking because the spoiler tags were in the way.  Until then, I thought the spoiler tag was useless but benign.  Now I really really hate the spoiler tag. 

I like to slot with an opening of 2-1 and voted accordingly.

[ah_clem]

Oops.  I forgot my manners:

Hello ah_playername, good luck.

[Zorba]

I like the spoiler tag, since it allows everyone to think for themselves first. For rollouts, it's mandatory IMO, for comments on what (not) to play, very much appreciated.

[mrs.stog]

Spoiler

j'adore the spoiler! helps me not to be influenced before my initial vote)--the slot is nice (ah clem the search should still show up relevant searches within the board u want - choose advanced search)

[close]

thx Dorbel and Zorba ---- enjoy all

(**folks need to register to be able to see game diagrams and vote.** )

[dorbel]

Not that I care, but those who don't want to see others opinions can look at the diagram, vote and then scroll down. I don't really see the point of the spoiler.

[ah_clem]

I definitely like the idea of thinking for oneself before seeing what others have said, and  I always post my analysis (such as it is) before looking at anyone else's take. But how hard is it to simply not scroll down?

The difficult part of avoiding being influenced is the front page of the Forum where the preview doesn't hide the contents of the spoiler tag. I'm not sure what to do about that...

@ Mrs Stog: I tried every search term that I could think of and still came up empty.  The post I was trying to find was within a two week window and simply bringing up each thread and scanning it would have found it in an hour or less if not for the spoiler tags.  (the post was about chances of winning with one checker closed out on the bar and N checkers already off - there's a formula, but I can't remember it or it's name - any help cheerfully appreciated)

@Zorba - agree that bot results should be placed behind a spoiler tag. Human opinions? Not necessary IMHO.

[stog]

once a spoiler is clicked - ie open, it should remain open when u next return?

[socksey]

once a spoiler is clicked - ie open, it should remain open when u next return?

Doesn't work that way for me.   

socksey



"If a man empties his purse into his head, no man can take it away from him. An investment in knowledge always pays the best interest." - Benjamin Franklin

[ah_clem]

once a spoiler is clicked - ie open, it should remain open when u next return?

Nope, it's done via client side javascript, and there's no memory of the state from one page load to the next.

It could be done so that it's persistent, but that's a lot more work - fro one thing, the server would have to remember who's clicked on what for every user and every spoiler tag.   I don't think there's a way to offload the work to the browser, but there might be.

[diane]

With or without spoilers - would anyone like to say why the slot is winning in the poll so far - clem said he prefers it, but why is that?  I much prefer the 13/11, 24/23 - what's the upside of slotting?

[sixty_something]

me too, diane .. although when i voted i opted for the more conservative 13/10 .. but the slotted 21 variant is interesting .. like the slotted 41 opening, it might be fun to play especially in an opening game .. i'm also curious to know what the experts and rollouts say

btw, i also really like using spoilers especially when discussing a move, but this comment didn't seem to deserve one

[AlpineDesert]

i like slotting here on the first move because:

which point do we most want to make? i think most folks would agree its the 5 pt.  by slotting if we're not hit  then we make the 5 with 6's, 1's, 3's, 5-3, 6-2 and double 4's and double 2's.

if i had a doubles partner who wanted to play 24-23, 13-11 i wouldn't object too strongly but i think if we have a chance to grab the initiative and make the best pt on the board we should go for it.

[socksey]

I am in agreement with diane and sixty on this one, but not really against making the 5 pt, which I go for quite often.   

Let the voting decide!   

Oh, and I'm with zorba on the spoiler tag although I don't have a problem with scrolling down before I cast my vote.   



socksey



"The world is a dangerous place, not because of those who do evil, but because of those who look on and do nothing." - Albert Einstein

[blitzxz]

Slotting leads to more complex and interesting games. So that's a clear first choice to me. Splitting is good for gammon safe or double match point. But this is really a matter of playing style.

[ah_clem]

There have been volumes written on whether to split or slot with an opening of 2-1.  I don't know that I can add very much to the literature.  This article seems as succinct as any other http://www.bkgm.com/openings.html#opening21

Here, I feel like I'm playing a better player (I know I am, not sure if it's true collectively) so my strategy is to get some gammmon chances and push the cube. Slotting is more aggressive and leads to more gammmons - on both sides.  It also leads to more interesting play, and I'd like to go  in that direction - I'm not going to learn anything if we get into a simple game.

[Zorba]

Thanks for the input folks. Re: spoiler tag, I find that it's easy to unwillingly see the first reply while scrolling down to look at the diagram, so that's where a spoiler tag comes in handy. Also, like here, there can be discussion outside the spoiler tags, that is not move-related. Admittedly, not a big deal, so do what you feel is right.

As for the move, good link by ah_clem. What the bots tell us so far, is that compared to the split 24/23, the slot 6/5 wins a bit more games and some extra gammons, but clearly loses extra gammons. It adds up to being extremely close at normal scores, such as this one. At DMP and especially Gammon-Go scores, the slot figures to be better.

[ah_clem]

As for the move, good link by ah_clem.

Thanks.  It's a very good resource for opening plays, but one has to take the numbers with a grain of salt - all the rollouts were performed using cubeless money play and the DMP, GG, and GS values were inferred from the probabilities of the cubeless rollout.

Details are here, and the author is pretty upfront about this.
http://www.bkgm.com/openings/rollouts.html

[AlpineDesert]

here is another resource:

http://www.bgonline.org/

search opening rolls

[diane]

Slotting leads to more complex and interesting games.

Do we need to modify that old Chinese curse to something like...'may you play in interesting games'...

Welcome, welcome Blitzxz - glad to have you on our side