Some people have expressed an interest in real time money tournaments, so I am going to try some as an experiment. I propose to run them initially on Sunday evenings European time, so early afternoon for Americans. I have in mind five point matches, perhaps with a 7 point final, and a 10 euro ($13.50) (£9.20) entry fee.
Winner takes all with 7 or fewer players. 8-12 players winner 75% second 25%. 13-16 winner 60% second 20% semifinalists 10% each.
Only players with money on deposit with me may enter, so those who might like to take part may send me money to credit to their account. Minimum deposit 10 euros or $14 or £10 to cover currency fluctuations. Entrants may send enough for more than one tournament. Only payPal will be accepted by me at this time, to my email dorbel(at)gmail(dot)com. If you have money on deposit, then you can enter on the night, but of course if you are not there, your account stays untouched.
During the trial period there will be no deduction by me from the prize fund, although if it gets off the ground and becomes a regular feature I may introduce a small (5%?) rake at some point in the future to parly cover admin time. Winnings will be credited to the winner's account and may be withdrawn at any time, immediately on request. If there isn't sufficient interest to run some, or indeed any tournaments, then any funds unused will be returned 100%.
As only cash players can enter, we can't use tourneybot and I will devise a fair method of making a random draw.
This venture is entirely unofficial and not in any way sanctioned by fibs. It is not intended to be a profitmaking venture. Tournament rules and regulations will be whatever the TD (me initially) says they are! I reserve the right to refuse entries and any money sent in by a player who is so refused will be returned 100%. Note that 100% here and elsewhere means 100% less any amounts deducted by payPal for any reason.
Any interest and we will do it. No tournament and you get your cash back. Let's do it!
Sounds like fun dorbel. When are you thinking of starting it?
The first Sunday after I have received three (or more) deposits.
Do you plan to set aside any personal problems you may have so that anyone can enter?
QuoteI reserve the right to refuse entries and any money sent in by a player who is so refused will be returned 100%
Got it. Will you please change the name of this thread to "Real dorbel Time money tournaments"?
Our first entrant is in, which is great. Two more, in addition to me of course, and we will schedule the first tournament.
There are no plans to change the name of this thread.
Quote from: dorbel on March 24, 2009, 11:41:59 PM
I may introduce a small (5%?) rake at some point in the future to parly cover admin time
I'm not going to take part in your tourney, dorbel.
Regards
Quote from: PersianLord on March 26, 2009, 05:29:07 PM
I'm not going to take part in your tourney, dorbel.
Regards
It won't be the same without you
QuoteQuote from: dorbel on March 24, 2009, 11:41:59 PM
I may introduce a small (5%?) rake at some point in the future to parly cover admin time
QuoteQuote from: PersianLord on Yesterday at 05:29:07 PM
I'm not going to take part in your tourney, dorbel.
Regards
We have two schools of thought on Fibs. :mellow: One thinks that because Fibs is a free server, that any other connected Fibs endeavor should also be free. :huh: Never mind that Patti and some of the others of us have devoted years of free time and $ for the love of Fibs and a few thank yous here and there. There are costs involved in keeping Fibs going that are supported by Marvin, the owner of Fibs and by Patti, the administrator of Fibs who keeps it running 24/7. I'm very grateful for these two because of my enjoyment of Fibs. :thumbsup:
I don't have a lot of money, so that's why I donate my time and my knowledge to support the site. A very few people donate money to the cause, for which I am also grateful. ;)
Supporting a site like Fibsboard takes a lot of time AND some money. :dry: I see nothing wrong with advertising and donations to support the site if the person donating their time for the project hasn't the independant means to also donate the $ for the cause. :dry:
Running tournaments takes a lot out of a person when you consider the complaints and other problems one must deal with as a tournament director. :cry: That is why I have seen many tournament directors come and go over the years. I've been on the brink of quitting many times myself. :laugh: I see no problem with charging a 5% fee for the headaches of a money tournament. :smile:
socksey
"All great truths begin as blasphemies." - George Bernard Shaw
Any touirney IRL has a rake for the organizers. Why should FIBS be any different ?
Dorbel's time is certainly worth something.
Bob
5% is really nothing. Good luck for the tourney :thumbsup2:
Kinda funny when ppl dont take 5% rake for 'nothing'. I.e. tomawaky has hosted tourneys for years for free. Lots of TD's in online tourneys do it for free. Why this tourney is any different? Is handling the money any different, than hosting leagues free for years? Think again!
Quote from: Kari_Grandi on March 27, 2009, 07:39:32 PMIs handling the money any different, than hosting leagues free for years? Think again!
Not only free, but at personal cost, which is someway met by donations, but I would be willing to bet not completely.
I can see both sides really - and the bottom line is...as long as dorbel is up front about taking the rake, should he decide to in the future, then people can choose to play it knowing that, or to not play. Arguing about it won't make a jot of difference - nor is it likely to make dorbel see that we are a sweet bunch, who are a pleasure to do business with, and thereore he will do it for free :laugh: :laugh:
i note that the escoffery.com tourney the only other fibs 4 money tourney i know about takes 10%.
i would imagine anyone managing a fibs tourney, when money is at stake, will indeed earn a "rake"; i doubt it would meet the potential costs of post-tourney TD therapy however.
gl to all :)
To date I have only received funds for two players, so there will be no tournament this Sunday. Interested players should let me have a deposit soon, so that we can begin the following Sunday 5th April.
Tournament etiquette is important for a TD.
So I start watching a game in a tournament -- dorbel's game. Note: I've already lost to dorbel in a polite (meaning dorbel was silent) match in an early round, and just want to watch the rest of the tourney. (
TourneyBot: |2872: [bracket] "Work can Wait" Monday Open| |Mon, 30 Mar 09 18:30 UTC| |Directors: adz| |)
- dorbel rolls 1 and 2.
- dorbel bans you from watching.
- You shout: Gee whiz, dorbel. Is it forbidden for participants in YOUR tournaments to watch other matches in SAME tournament? You'll be a great TD. *** dorbel bans you from watching.
- dorbel shouts: It strikes me as amazing that people who never miss an pportunity to insult and harass me, not only want to watch me play, but expect it as a right!
Not to mention that it's dorbel who will "never miss an [o:sic]pportunity to insult and harass", it's dorbel who is trying to be a credible TD in a money tourney. His behavior in other tourneys on FIBS can only reflect his behavior when he is operating as a TD on his own. We're looking at someone who cannot act responsibly asking for responsibility with others' recreation time (and money).
--
don
There is no dignified way to respond to this hysterical nonsense, so I will refrain, apart from questioning what on earth this all has to do with the subject of the thread.
As next Sunday evening is the keenly awaited match between juggler and Matvey 'falafel' Natanzon I will not be running a tournament on that evening either, but we do now have sufficient players who have sent me money on deposit, so all being well the first money tournament will be on Sunday 12th, Easter Sunday at 1800 UTC. Players interested in entering should refer to the earlier post(s) by me in this thread for details of how to send in the cash.
Note that this first tournament and all others in the immediate future will feature a 100% return.
Well done on organising that dorbel, I hope it all runs well - and good games to all those taking part :cool:
Quote from: don on March 30, 2009, 09:41:28 PM
Tournament etiquette is important for a TD.
So I start watching a game in a tournament -- dorbel's game. Note: I've already lost to dorbel in a polite (meaning dorbel was silent) match in an early round, and just want to watch the rest of the tourney. (TourneyBot: |2872: [bracket] "Work can Wait" Monday Open| |Mon, 30 Mar 09 18:30 UTC| |Directors: adz| |)
- dorbel rolls 1 and 2.
- dorbel bans you from watching.
- You shout: Gee whiz, dorbel. Is it forbidden for participants in YOUR tournaments to watch other matches in SAME tournament? You'll be a great TD. *** dorbel bans you from watching.
- dorbel shouts: It strikes me as amazing that people who never miss an pportunity to insult and harass me, not only want to watch me play, but expect it as a right!
Not to mention that it's dorbel who will "never miss an [o:sic]pportunity to insult and harass", it's dorbel who is trying to be a credible TD in a money tourney. His behavior in other tourneys on FIBS can only reflect his behavior when he is operating as a TD on his own. We're looking at someone who cannot act responsibly asking for responsibility with others' recreation time (and money).
--
don
Banning people from watching is not a rude behaviour in itself IMO. But the problem is that dorbel usually advertises for a large audience for his FLG matches, saying 'ALL are welcome to watch' and guess what often happens in actuality? Yes, he doesn't hold his promises and bans as many fibsters as he wants to. I think this alone is a more than enough convincing reason to disqualify him as a reliable TD for even a FUN tourney, money ones aside. Now he's going to run a money tourney on FIBS, asking for a 5% rake, even though the likes of sixty or socksey have been running regular tournaments in FIBS for years and in the most efficient way imaginable, FREE of any charge of course.
All in all, as said before and oulined above, I am not going to participate in this tourney. BTW, I hope being a TD and running a money tourney in FIBS would satiate our friend's excessive lust for authority and make his behavior a bit less repugnant than what it's used to be.
Regards
to be honest ,...
in a money tourney a palyer should be allowed to watch any game in the whole of the tournament ( even if they are already eliminated )..
there is a real investment in it and a player has a right to see fairplay...
any game a player is refused from watching should be null and void...
i believe this to be the only way to operate a truly open honest money tourney.
It is a fundamental point of etiquette in backgammon, live or online, that any player may bar any spectator from watching the game, without being obliged to give any reason, or indeed to have any reason. I do this from time to time, as there are a very few players whose hostility towards me is rather unsettling and I find it distracting when I am playing to be watched by one of them. If I want to bar a watcher, I ask them not to watch and only use the blind command as a last resort. However if a player is on my villains list (a javafibs feature) because I don't want to read their shouts or receive their tells, then the program blinds them without any input from me or even my knowledge that it has happened. This is what happened to don on Friday night.
Are the correspondents here who criticise this really saying that I don't have the right to bar a watcher or use the villain feature on my javafibs? Also, if I am so repugnant and offensive, why do they want to watch in the first place?
What all this has to do with my abilty to act as a TD is beyond me. PersianLord and Kari_Grandi and presumably don don't want to enter a tournament directed by me. That's ok, I woudn't enter a tournament directed by one of them either. They are of course still entitled to comment on and criticise the tournament, but using this thread, which is intended to promote a new activity on fibs to indulge themselves in personal spite is very wearing. Perhaps one of them would care to start a "What a twat dorbel is" thread. It would be more honest and might at least provide us all with some amusement.
the admin here will not tolerate personal abuse - and we have all been keeping an eye on this thread. My take was to let it run while points were trying to be made, and because i know that dorbel can capably look after himself and express himself in a restrained manner ;) helped by this being his native language.
i feel that stripeyzebra's message is a fair point and maybe better describes what others saught to get across in previous posts, and will help dorbel establish the groundrules necessary for his tourney. If everyone understands the rules by which he wishes to run his tourney at the offset, then there will be fewer problems further on down the line.
this is a reminder for all of us to keep to topic and put across our views without getting petty and personal. we will not, and cannot allow tirades of abuse, as may sometimes occur in FIBs shouts here on Fibsboard - this being an open public forum albeit membered by adults.
we have introduced a yellow and red card system here - as is used in football, where a yellow card is a booking - a warning -the post removed, if you get another, you get a red and you are sent off - which in a 'boarders case would mean their ability to post would be withdrawn for a period of time.
obviously we reserve the right to totally ban too.
i trust all will appreciate the opportunity to post their views in a considered and polite format
Quote from: stog on March 31, 2009, 10:19:34 AM
we have introduced a yellow and red card system here - as is used in football, where a yellow card is a booking - a warning -the post removed, if you get another, you get a red and you are sent off - which in a 'boarders case would mean their ability to post would be withdrawn for a period of time.
Interesting. Where do these cards appear?
Oh yeah,
Quote from: dorbel on March 31, 2009, 09:51:23 AM
...and presumably don don't want to enter a tournament directed by me.
actually dorbel made clear (thank you) that it's he that will not let me in his tourney in answer to my first post in this thread.
There's nothing more to say about watchers who are IN the tourney in which they want to observe others also IN. Stripey restated my opinion.
--
don
This tedious, but it is necessary to nail lies.
Quoteactually dorbel made clear (thank you) that it's he that will not let me in his tourney in answer to my first post in this thread.
I didn't.
The actual exchange went (Don)
QuoteDo you plan to set aside any personal problems you may have so that anyone can enter?
My reply was in the form of a quote from my initial post
QuoteI reserve the right to refuse entries and any money sent in by a player who is so refused will be returned 100%
If don chooses to interpret this courteous reply in response to the insulting form of his original question as a refusal to let him play then that is his affair, not mine. As he has made clear that he considers me quite unfit to be a TD and not to be trusted with other people's money
QuoteHis behavior in other tourneys on FIBS can only reflect his behavior when he is operating as a TD on his own. We're looking at someone who cannot act responsibly asking for responsibility with others' recreation time (and money).
, a clear libel in itself, then it is obvious that he doesn't intend to enter anyway, but he would so love to be banned!
Verystripeyzebra makes his point politely, but I must restate the fundamental right of any player to ban any watcher without giving a reason. That's bg and the money makes no difference. The only exception to this, a point recently made by jackdaddy, is that the TD cannot be blinded, for fairly obvious reasons.
I announced my intention to start regular money tournaments because I thought that it would be interesting and popular. I still think that, but whether I want to be the target for a continuing campaign of petty malevolence as a result of doing this is another matter. Life is too short.
Quote from: dorbel on April 01, 2009, 06:52:53 AMI still think that, but whether I want to be the target for a continuing campaign of petty malevolence as a result of doing this is another matter. Life is too short.
Sadly, that is the fate of most people giving their time to run tourneys on FIBs - and the main reason I stopped doing it, life is indeed much too short for some of what goes on there.
I do hope you can rise above it and run this tournament - at least for a while, if nothing else, so the bad guys don't win again....
If there is any one lesson I have learned in my life it's this; BE VERY SUSPICIOUS OF ANY SITUATION WHERE HUMAN BEINGS AND MONEY ARE PRESENT.
I see both sides of the issue. I generally have no problem with watchers but dorbel is right.........in real-life tourneys kibitzers can be banned by a player or TD without any reason given.
Years ago, at a major tourney, I was compelled to do this. My Turkish opponent had a friend sitting with him, watching the play. At a fairly crucial point in the game, my opponent started to move the checkers but was stopped by his friend, who mumbled something to him in Turkish. My opponent made another checker play.
I called the TD, explained what happened, told him I thought I was playing in a tourney, not a consulting chouette, and asked him to remove the kibitzer, which the TD did at once.
I've known dorbel for years at FIBS. I think it's fair to say we won't be exchanging Christmas cards or going on a cruise together anytime soon. For all I know, I'm one he'd likely ban from his tourneys.......irrelevant. He's trying to do something to introduce a little more action and vitality into FIBS, for that he should be commended.
Bob
For reasons unconnected with this thread, or indeed with fibs at all, I have decided not to proceed with this venture. Thanks to those brave souls who sent me money, which I am returning today and thanks to those who have kindly expressed support and encouragement.
One day there will be money play on fibs and that will be fun for those that like that sort of thing. I look forward to it.
nice try anyway, dorbel .. personally, i am very ambivalent about money play, especially at FIBS .. that said, i would have no problem entering any tourney with you as TD, money play or not .. when personalities get into such decisions, as they often do in FIBSland, it is simply a mess .. when personalities and money mix, the mess is most likely to become very sticky .. so, all things considered, i think your decision is correct, for now
Quote from: sixty_something on April 05, 2009, 06:41:55 PMi think your decision is correct, for now
He did say his decision is unconnected with anything in this thread or at fibs - so whatever it is dorbel, hope it isn't serious, and you can consider resurrecting this in the future.
In the meantime, thanks for trying to bring some diversity to fibs - in spite of all the flack
Quote from: PersianLord on March 31, 2009, 12:38:06 AM
Now he's going to run a money tourney on FIBS, asking for a 5% rake, even though the likes of sixty or socksey have been running regular tournaments in FIBS for years and in the most efficient way imaginable, FREE of any charge of course.
This is from an old thread that I ran across while searching to see when the last time Kari_Grandi posted on Fibsboard and thought I should make a comment.
I've never run a money tournament, but, if I did, I certainly would charge a small fee of some kind. I think 5% is minimal and probably 10% would be more normal. There is more involved with money tournaments than free ones, not to mention more flack and accountability.
socksey
Avoiding danger is no safer in the long run than outright exposure. Life is either a daring adventure or nothing. - Helen Keller