The UK hunt ban rumbles on..

[diane]

The ban has been opposed almost as fiercely as hunting used to be, and now there are rumblings that we are to take a step backwards and reintroduce it...well if that is what the nation wants.

Be apart from this...

http://www.politicalarticles.net/blog/2009/10/11/denmarks-gruesome-festival-mass-killing-of-whales-and-dolphins-to-prove-adulthood/

and this...

http://www.ifaw.org/ifaw_canada_english/join_campaigns/save_baby_seals_end_the_seal_hunt/seal_hunt_facts_canada_doesn't_want_you_to_know/index.php

And the countless other pointlessly violent cullings undertaken around the world, supposedly in the name of population control, but ultimately just an outlet for the needs of some to be violent.

This petition has been raised to remind those who would remove this ban that there is still enormous, widespread and valid opposition to hunting in this way.

http://www.thepetitionsite.com/1/keep-the-ban-on-fox-hunting

[garp_02]

I totally agree with the ban, as despise people hunting for 'sport'.

However, my friend, there is a better way to prevent the ban being repealled.

Don't vote tory!!!!!!!

Not now......not ever

[adrian]

I am considering buying a shotgun soon. It will strengthen my manhood. 

[stog]

I am upping this post as an interesting take on animal management..and as a means to provide/continue discussion on a hunting topic recently locked on one of the other boards .......

Sweden culls its resurgent wolves (but not all, and together with the Norwegians, they have in recent years, successfully re-introduced/'saved' the animal

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/europe/8436670.stm#

[diane]

I totally agree with the ban, as despise people hunting for 'sport'.

However, my friend, there is a better way to prevent the ban being repealled.

Don't vote tory!!!!!!!

Not now......not ever

I am with you there, but sadly far too many people are influenced by what the Sun has to say 

[diane]

27 wolves in a country doesn't seem many 

Anyhoo, I dont have a problem with population control, it is the natural way - predators who overpopulate an area will starve to death.  Nature is not kind, nor mean, it just is.

Man has obviously messed with this natural, balance - I don't think anyone would question that, and that means other population controls are necessary.  The only thing I believe is that animals should be treated with dignity, when killed they should be killed as humanely as possible, and their carcasses put to use somewhere.

I am heartened to see more effort going into ensuring at least some specimens from species are kept, they have a purpose in the natural world that we often misunderstand or underestimate, until it is too late.

[vegasvic]

Too many people in this world spend too much time trying to cause other folks to stop doing what they have been doing for generations. I really do not care what those who's feet seldom leave concrete have to say about hunting.  I have learned that few, if any of them, have a clue what it is to commune with nature.

"The vast majority of natural predators are gone. Man is the only predator"

[diane]

This is true, so many do not understand nature, which is why they happily wipe out a species, then afterwards realise how critical it was in the delicate natural balance. Crops have been lost that way. People have been harmed throwing pesticides at the problem. We mostly havent the faintest idea what we are doing, but, like children, bumble along doing it anyway.

Think  of the damage done to Australian ecosystem, because the local wildlife was no 'fun to hunt', it wouldn't run, and stood still waiting to be shot.  So, foxes and rabbits were brought here, to give something worth hunting - at great expense the natural flora and fauna of this island.

You dont have to leave concrete to know that was a dumbass idea, and you also know they weren't after population control, nor killing an aged or injured animal.

They want to kill, they need to kill something to feel more powerful.  That is unjustifiable.

[vegasvic]

José Ortega y Gasset, the Spanish philosopher who is often quoted on this subject, perhaps said it best in his classic book, Meditations on Hunting: "One does not hunt in order to kill. On the contrary, one kills in order to have hunted." In other words, the activity of hunting is what's important, not the kill. But if killing a game animal is not your goal then you are not hunting.

I hunt , and not hang it on my walls , i use every part of that animal , maybe you all should take a tour of a feed lot !!

[diane]

A heads up, this thread is not against hunting for food, but against using population culling as an excuse to kill animals in what I and many others consider to be horrific ways - not with guns, but with dogs, knives and clubs, to name just some.

This thread is primarily about the hunting of foxes with dogs, the pack of dogs chase a single fox to the point of exhaustion, then tear it apart. The humans, following on horses, cover themselves in the blood, and then they throw the carcass away. This is more humane than shooting them, apparently. And necessary because after the fox population was reduced over years by hunting, the rabbit population exploded, then the farmers attacked the rabbit population to protect the crops, thus leaving foxes short of food, causing them to go after chickens and other farm animals. See how complex it all gets...

The other issues listed here are the Danes wading in the harbour to stab to death hundreds of dolphins to prove their manhood..see the link. Also seal pup clubbing as a means of population control.  

Stog added in the introduction of wolf culling, to me it adds proof that where required, culling can be done much more humanely.

If we are quoting Philosophers..mine would be Mark Rowlands - author of several books, but "the Philosopher and the Wolf' is my favourite.

The dark side of the human animal is not wolf-like; it is ape-like, and at its worst peculiarly human. In other words, civilisation is a defence erected by humanity not against bestiality, but against itself.

Fret not, this thread is not trying to stop you being able to get a duck for dinner  

[stog]

[garp_02]

I've heard a lot of sh** in my time but Vegasvic's pathetic attempt to justify hunting takes the biscuit

[adrian]

 
I am looking forward to see a shout exchange.

[blitzxz]

I think diane is connecting here several things, which I think are not the same thing. I think hunting is no more wrong then eating cows or pigs, when it is done with as little suffering as possible and as long as the population is not overhunted.

And this is exactly what people in Faroe Islands are doing. The whales die in avarage of 30 second and at least according to Wikipedia this is the best way. I'm, of cource, no expert in whale hunting, but it sounds reasonable to me that it would be difficult and dangerous to use shotguns and they might not even be better. Yeah, the hunt looks gruesome, but so does any slaughterhouse. If you can't stand the scene or kill animals for food yourself, then you shouldn't eat meat in the first place. The tradition is no serious threat to population as it is done only once a year and there is population of several hundreds of thousands.

Now fox hunting has nothing to do with the whale hunt of the Faroe Islands. It comes from the tradition of hunting for sport, which has been the ultimate fun for European aristocrasy. Because I'm a Finn and we have a very long hunting tradition, I greatly despise this. Killing just for fun and causing unnecessary suffering is the biggest disrespect you can have against nature.

However, what is the most problematic of these examples is the hunting of wolves in Sweden. There is little over 200 wolves in Sweden and the population has hardly been "saved". And the situation is about same in Norway and Finland. It's a clash of interests and nobody wants wolves in their backyard. They kill livestock and game and are competitors for humans, which is why wolves have been whiped out from most of Europe. People tend accept only very small population of wolves when they actually have to live next to them. But you might argue that people should adjust to nature, not the other way around, but then again this is a lot bigger issue then just hunting.

[diane]

I think diane is connecting here several things, which I think are not the same thing. I think hunting is no more wrong then eating cows or pigs, when it is done with as little suffering as possible and as long as the population is not overhunted.

Diane is not 'connecting things' here, this post was entirely about fox hunting in the UK, and urging UK citizens to sign the petition to stop that from being reinstated, ever.  This is a forum for personal passions, and I have a long history in this area, including involving myself  in hunt sab activities in my past.

People in the UK condemn other countries for practices which they find abhorrent, eg seal clubbing - and the slaughter in the harbour, as per my links.  They do not however, realise that the rest of the world perceives fox hunting as similarly barbaric, if not worse.  Hence, I drew their attention to them, to say these things are similar, and if you oppose one, you must oppose them all.  

Vic brought in hunting for food as a total red herring, and stog broadened the topic to consider other population controls - which is supposedly what fox hunting is all about.  I am happy for this  topic to consider these issues, but not happy to have opinions assigned to me, that I do not have  

In terms of food hunting, I feel exactly as you stated, which I said in the other locked thread, and on this one.

[stog]

yes i redirected traffic from this topic that i locked http://www.fibsboard.com/pictures-links/hunting-at-kranskop/msg21203/#new

many many years ago i worked in the south of italy and we were involved with trying to 'educate' the local hunters -- as migrating birds from africa were being decimated coming up over italy -- i had a poster in the classroom -- a silhouette of Italy in birds - with the caption 'the desert skies of europe' -- we realised that we couldn't stop the older hunter, going out on a sunday morning, but we could inform/influence the newer generations....and perhaps make people think twice about netting and the keeping of the birds in room cages -- which many apartments had.......

in most parts of the world, established hunting practices have to change, not necessarily stop, but have to change -- as habitat and species population declines.

in certain areas however - human survival depends on the seal, whale  or the reindeer etc.....
although in reality our survival is intrinsically linked with all creatures and  the habitats we share.....*

re - the wolf - great beasts but  not so great if your farm is in the marginal areas where they are being encouraged...

there is no absolute argument here, only a plea for respect for our companion beasts and the habitat we both require to survive..

as i posted before..we are now indeed stewards of the world's animal variety, or at least their environment..........and past practices are not necessarily what is best going forwards..


good points by all btw -- informative and helps with an understanding of different folks environments/requirements....

* http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gaia_hypothesis

[adrian]

Yeah, the hunt looks gruesome, but so does any slaughterhouse. If you can't stand the scene or kill animals for food yourself, then you shouldn't eat meat in the first place.

I said this too in Tanika's post, which is now closed.

I wonder if those who fiercely oppose hunting aren't pseudo vegetarians who eat meat and love it! , or even "better", they are also among the "so called" care takers of nature's wonders who criticize hunting and proud members in some animal protection society which oppose (for example) the usage of electric  leashes for dogs, used to prevent them  to bark. Come on fellows, when you live in a condo along with 300 or more other people, should we all lose our sleep and tranquility because of one freakin' dog? 

PS.  I own a dog too, I have one cat too, not to mention the fleas, flies and other living creatures that usually share our homes with us. I will defend to death my right to kill the mosquitoes whenever I see any. Death to cockroaches ! Someday I may eat my dog too.. 
PPS. I like to eat what my friends hunt. I am not allowed to own a shot gun, for obvious reasons: I would kill fake vegetarians and a few pompous animal lovers.
PPPS. This is my last post about hunting / killing animals.

[jackdaddy]

But maybe your first post about killing fake vegetarians and a few pompous animal lovers?

[diane]

proud members in some animal protection society which oppose (for example) the usage of electric  leashes for dogs, used to prevent them  to bark. Come on fellows, when you live in a condo along with 300 or more other people, should we all lose our sleep and tranquility because of one freakin' dog? 

Totally off topic, but dogs dont bark all day if they are kept properly. They need exercise, discipline and affection. If they get those, they only bark if there is an intruder...which is what they are for...isn't it?

My dogs are 2 of 6 who live mostly  outdoors here. The other 4 bark all day, mine bark when the bus comes past [that will stop once they understand what a bus is, and that it isnt ever going to come in their territory  ]
The two worst barking dogs are the ones that are kept 24/7 shut up in an area at the back of the garden. The only contact they ever get with the other pack members [owners] is feeding time, and when they stick their heads out of the window to holler at them to stop barking.  If they were wore it electrified collars it *might* stop them barking out of loneliness, frustration and confusion...but is it really fair?

In my opinion, the ones who need to wear the collars are the animals who need training that a dog isnt something you can stick at the bottom of the garden and go and pet it once a day - and for that matter, most pets arent happy caged or confined. If you arent working the animal and giving it the closest you can to a natural lifestyle, then why torture it that way?

[stog]

i put this pic up for you dog lovers.. http://www.fibsboard.com/gallery/?sa=view;id=144

this board being the 'campaigns' board, i urge any one considering a new hound to check out the dog shelters; a heinz 57 mongrel variety is cheaper to run, and often with fewer health problems than their pedigree counterparts and, having never spent >£20 on a woof, i can assure you that all are worthy woofs!!