BAGOLYMPIC

[grasshopper]

 Tomawaky i believe Muija is from Finland    

[Tomawaky]

Too bad UK is going alone  
Thanks to you grasshopper

[diane]

Following Slots' win in Bago last night, I think it is about time we started to implement some of the things which were discussed at the outset.  Minimum experience requirements would have stopped the situation arising last night - and perhaps a few of the other difficulties we have had.  

For those who dont know - Slots is also DirtyHands (to mention but one other nick) and banned from bago by gogogiz (at least).  Now, although well behaved in the session last night, it does mean we had the same old situation - low experienced player doing well, causing distortion of rating losses.

So - I suggest a minimum experience of 400 matches for players to be able to enter a bago tourney.

(but it aint all bad - Slots is British )

[socksey]

Since DirtyHands was banned by gogo, maybe he (Slots) should be disqualified from last night's tournament, moving all the winners up one notch.

A ratings limit would only eliminate the real newbies.  It only takes a short while to get to 400 experience, so I don't think the problem would be truely solved with a ratings limit.  

What if repbot is implemented with an ISP, so that that a person banned would not be able to join a tourney?  Is that possible?

socksey




Classmates at college were lamenting the cost of long distance phone service and debating the relative advantages of AT&T, MCI, and Sprint.

"I've always found CTC to be the cheapest plan around," offered one. "Call Them Collect." - submitted by Carroll

[diane]

Firstly - repbot limits (with or without ISP info) would have been useless last night - since repbot was unavailable.  An experience limit is always available.

Secondly - I considered the disqualification - but have decided that is not really an option - and last nights results will have to stand.  For instance - the first player to lose to Slots may have won against the next opponent - etc - it is too much to assume the same progression and simply move everyone up one.

As a follow on note - I had never banned DirtyHands from bago - nor was aware that he had been banned, and still dont think there is much justification for banning that nick - since beyond some objectionable shouts - there is no real bad behaviour with regard to tourney play.  The use of a second, low experience, nick for tourney play is something I object strongly to though, because of all the previously covered arguments.  The best way I can see to prevent this - is to limit experience.  We are all also aware that the main rating distortions occur up until the player reaches 400 exp - which is the reason for my choice.

Now - as you pointed out...

only takes a short while to get to 400 experience

- so yes - the real newbies are excluded - but not for long. I am inclined to think this is a good thing too - since bago is really intended for good players who know how to use FIBS - and intend to stay around, should they do well enough to qualify for a team.  It does, however, stop people creating a nick simply to enter a tournament they could otherwise not enter (whether or not that was the reason behind this players creation of yet another nick).

[dorbel]

I wonder if Diane could explain some things to me.
I think I know what she means by "distortion of rating losses." A good player will certainly play at a level above the 1500 that he/she starts with for a while, but that applies with every new nick opened on fibs and every match that they play until they reach their true level. Why should the rating points that his/her opponent can lose have anything to do with whether or not a person is allowed to enter a tournament?
Can any director ban any player from any and every bago tournament? I recognise the right of a TD to say to a person, I do not accept your entry for this tournament, but what right exists to say that he/she may not play in other tournaments on fibs?
Why does Diane think that there is not much justification for banning DirtyHands on the basis of objectionable shouts, when she has banned players in the past for objectionable shouts? She may of course hold either view, but surely not both?
Why does she think that rating "distortions" only occur up until a player reaches 400 exp? What is magical about 400? A player may reach his true rating with only 100 exp, or not until he/she gets to a 1,000. If the player isn't very good, he may be at his true rating after 1 exp.
Diane tells us that "Bago is really intended for good players who know how to use Fibs". Would she care to justify this shockingly elitist statement and explain exactly why bad players are not welcome? She may also care to define good and bad in this context.
She goes on to tell us that these "good" players are welcome because they will stick around and qualify for a team. In the light of the constant denial that there is any connection between Bago and World Cup, what does this statement mean?
I look forward to a courteous and informed response to these questions.

[Tomawaky]

Many players have come to Fibs and leave without return cause Fibs didn't let them a very good first seen  
I think that not accept new players is another way to drive back some other players.

I can understand that it may be difficult to organize tourney when some players are newbies but it's maybe to the accustomed to help those people while the TD 's doing his job.

I will be pleased to see always more and more good people coming here and stay cause they think that Fibs is the First Internet Backgammon Server to play on and that they don't need to go elsewhere as I do.

Yesterday another Bago session with a full player bracket from all over the world show us that our community is growing up and hope it still will long

[diane]

Why should the rating points that his/her opponent can lose have anything to do with whether or not a person is allowed to enter a tournament?

This has been covered extensively elsewhere, the majority of players do not enjoy playing a high rated player hiding under the guise of a 1500 and 30 exp points player - and this situation was a little worse because there was no indication that this was the case.  

Can any director ban any player from any and every bago tournament?

No - not as far as I am aware - and DirtyHands would have been able to play were I running it.

Why does Diane think that there is not much justification for banning DirtyHands on the basis of objectionable shouts

LOL - this is always gonna be difficult to measure - since some of the shouts that gogo objected to were aimed at me - but I never actually found them anything other than in good humour.  So - I guess it is subjective - if I feel a person is deliberately trying to upset me (whether or not they are successful) then I can decide whether or not I want to associate with them - and that is that pesky downside of free speech. Either way - the decision is with the TD.

Why does she think that rating "distortions" only occur up until a player reaches 400 exp

Of course the player may not have reached their actual rating by then -but the rating calculation changes after 400 - before this 'magical' number the players and opponents rating changes per win and loss is different from after 400.  It is also a little unfair on the newbie who gets matched with an 1800+ player - has a higher probability of losing than when playing other newer players, and yet loses a whole bunch of points for it - how disheartening to the new player is that??

Diane tells us that "Bago is really intended for good players who know how to use Fibs"

Firstly, this is bagolympics - would you have sent nihilist out to compete in the 1000m in Greece??  The original idea, to some extent, behind this competition was that the best players from each country would play and the best country be identified.  This is lost a little - and it is more open and more fun - which is good.
But secondly - these tournaments tend to be large - the last was 30 players - if the players are inexperienced in using fibs and playing in tournaments - this already long tournament can be drawn out beyond the two hours reasonable playing time.  There is also the risk of non committed players - ie those who get a bye - and get bored waiting and simply leave - or droppers - who then reduce the overall enjoyment of the tourney.

light of the constant denial that there is any connection between Bago and World Cup

Now - listen carefully - I will only say this once more...

These are two are seperate events - but the first is a qualifying process for the second.  Now - Slots is very likely to win the highest ranked British player this month, but has no intention of playing for the team - and is unlikely to still have that nick in three months!!

Tomawaky

I think that not accept new players is another way to drive back some other players.

I understand this feeling - and encourage new players to enter all other tournaments - often delaying start times a little to make sure they enter.  I want to be inclusive - not exclusive by default.

Yesterday another Bago session with a full player bracket from all over the world show us that our community is growing up and hope it still will long

Again - I felt the same - it is nice to see the event popular - and especially nice to see new countries with entrants.  The rest of the players had over 400 exp points though - and my point is this -  It isnt very exclusive to impose this small number on new people - let them use the first 400 games (not matches btw) getting confidence with their interface - inviting/accepting  - learning what a tournament is - how to enter and what happens next.  It doesnt take long - I am pretty sure I got over 400 in my first week on fibs!!

[tryout]

Many players have come to Fibs and leave without return cause Fibs didn't let them a very good first seen 

Yes, unfortunately this is true.

I think that not accept new players is another way to drive back some other players.

No, I don't think so. If a newbie comes to FIBS (s)he has to discover a lot of things first and learn how they work. This starts at FIBS itself and goes on over the bots, tourneys, type of shouts until the mastering of the client. And all this even if the person is already versed with the game. So all this alone is quite exciting. There doesn't need to be just another feature immediately present.

You can also look at it from the long term incentive. A newbie comes and is overwhelmed by all the different kinds of toys in the store. (S)he is trying everything at once, but this leaves only very little time to play with every feature. After a while everything has been tried but due to the short time nothing left a lasting impression. There's nothing new to see and it gets boring.

Why not give those newbies something to look forward to after that stage? Maybe they also have developed some real interest by now, instead of only playing around a bit.

And not mentioning the advantages that brings for TDs.

I will be pleased to see always more and more good people coming here and stay cause they think that Fibs is the First Internet Backgammon Server to play on and that they don't need to go elsewhere as I do.

Yes, keep coming and stay here (on FIBS)!    

[dorbel]

Thank you Diane. Let's get this rating thing quite clear. When you start playing in a rated system, there is a feature called the ramp, intended to bring the new player to a rating that reflects their true ability as quickly as possible. Thus a newbie playing me in a 3 pointer for example, might get 26 points for winning and drop 10 points for losing (I don't know the exact figures off hand), but my prospective win/loss would be something like 2.2 points for winning and 4.7 for losing, exactly as if the newbie had 1000 experience! Of course that newbie may really be capable of playing at the same level as me, so that if I lose I drop 4.7 points instead of the 3.46 that I would drop had he reached my rating. Wow, I lose 1.24 rating points more. As most players have a rating lower than mine, their potential "loss" is correspondingly smaller. Are you really telling me that people object to this so strongly, that it is a good and valid reason to exclude somebody from a tournament? This just isn't so, people object because like you, they misunderstand how the rating system is applied.
Can I also point out that 400 exp isn't 400 matches, nor is it 400 games. it is the number of matches played, times the length of the matches. 80 five point matches is 400 exp, which could be anything between 80 and 720 games.
You first mentioned that players should have a minimum of 400 experience points in order to weed out players like DirtyHands, who wanted a new nick for this tournament. Now suddenly you think it is also desirable to exclude real newbies, because they might slow up the tournament or even drop. Where is the connection? You already have a rule to cover players playing too slowly don't you? As to dropping, if they drop (an activity hardly confined to newbies) then they are out of the tournament and their opponent goes through. Where's the problem?
Diane, in common with some other TDs, gives the unfortunate impression that FIBS tournaments really are clicquey and exclusive, rather than open and inclusive. This may not be what she and they want, I don't believe that it is, but it is the strong impression given. Let's get people in and get them playing. In my view, the only criteria should be, do they abide by the letter and spirit of the rules during the tournament. Newbies, new nicks, offensive shouts, this has nothing to do with the tournament. If I was  a TD, I could easily draw up a list of fibsters I dislike and exclude them, but why should I? None of them, with the exception of don, have ever disrupted a match while we were playing, nor to my knowledge done so with any other player. The whole point of fibs in my view, is so that we can meet and play with people of all races, religions, politics and points of view. This includes people who have entirely different standards of behaviour. NIHILIST, to choose a name entirely at random, has completely different ideas to mine, as to what constitutes acceptable behaviour in shouts. That doesn't mean that the line I draw is in the right place and I shouldn't attempt to impose that standard on other people. I welcome playing the offensive old bugger at any rating and under any nick.
Finally, can I also point out that for the umpteenth time, Tomawaky has excelled himself with a wise and helpful post. Given that English is not his first language, what gems could we expect if it was. Please feel free to post in French Tomawaky and thank you for all that you have given fibs. You should be an example to all TDs.

[Tomawaky]

Finally, can I also point out that for the umpteenth time, Tomawaky has excelled himself with a wise and helpful post. Given that English is not his first language, what gems could we expect if it was. Please feel free to post in French Tomawaky and thank you for all that you have given fibs. You should be an example to all TDs.

Dans le cas ou, je me permettrais de poster en Francais. Je ne suis pas sur de pouvoir faire transparaitre mon opinion et mes sentiments à la majorité d'entre vous malheureusement  

In the case where I would post in French. I am not on being able to let you pass my opion and my feelings for the majority, unfortunately.

[tryout]

If I was  a TD, ...

Why don't you go ahead and show all current TDs how it's done properly? I haven't seen any tournament of yours yet.

The whole point of fibs in my view, is so that we can meet and play with people of all races, religions, politics and points of view.

Would you care to explain how Diane or any other TD could impede your choice of who you play or meet on FIBS by disallowing a player from a tournament? Did anybody forbid you to play a particular player on FIBS?

[dorbel]

Thank you tryout. I was invited to be a TD, in a one-line invitation from somebody called Keyser Soze. I was under the impression that this is in fact burper, though I may be mistaken. I wrote back requesting more information and in reply Keyser withdrew the invitation as I had not displayed "sufficient enthusiasm". Besides, do you really think that only TDs may express an opinion as to how tournaments should be run? If you do, then I find that attitude displays perfectly the arrogant and elitist style of administration that I am attempting to criticise. I hope that you will examine your attitude and bring yourself to agree with me that tournaments should be run for the benefit of those playing in them and that the opinions of those players should be welcomed, not derided.
I am not of course saying that a TD's decision to accept or exclude an entry is relevant to who I choose to play on fibs. My point was, as I think you already understood, is that tournaments should include as wide a range of people as possible. You are entitled to disagree with this, as with any opinion that I express, but the continually offensive tone that you use when speaking to me does you no credit.
Diane noted that bagolympic was originally intended to attract the best players from each country. Really? Intended by whom? Again, we have this elitism, this idea that only strong players are welcome. Dare I suggest that Diane's idea of a strong player starts at her own intermediate rating? Come on guys, get down off this high horse and display some of the tolerance for different types of people and the welcome for new players that should be the lifeblood of the game!  

[lewscannon]

Finally, can I also point out that for the umpteenth time, Tomawaky has excelled himself with a wise and helpful post. Given that English is not his first language, what gems could we expect if it was. Please feel free to post in French Tomawaky and thank you for all that you have given fibs. You should be an example to all TDs.

Dans le cas ou, je me permettrais de poster en Francais. Je ne suis pas sur de pouvoir faire transparaitre mon opinion et mes sentiments à la majorité d'entre vous malheureusement  

In the case where I would post in French. I am not on being able to let you pass my opion and my feelings for the majority, unfortunately.

Si t'as besoins d'aide pour t'exprimer en anglais, tomawaky, tu peus toujours me demander

[diane]

Dare I suggest that Diane's idea of a strong player starts at her own intermediate rating?

Ok - it is cheap shot time - so I guess the arguments ran out  

And I am the cliquey, exclusive one??  I have never turned a match down with a player based on rating, nor of experience points etc.  I will play anyone and help anyone - ask them.  

And since this has descended into another Diane bashing session - I guess it is time to move on  

[dorbel]

Diane, read your own posts. It is you who wants to exclude people from bago on grounds of experience and you who thinks that the tournament is intended for "good" players. That is your stated view point, it's not "bashing diane" to point out what you are saying and disagree with it. It is also not a cheap shot to point out that most people's definition starts at around their own rating! I just wondered by what criteria, given that this is the bagolympics (!!), you considered that you were a suitable entrant and a new player, who may be vastly superior to you, not?

[Tomawaky]

Si t'as besoins d'aide pour t'exprimer en anglais, tomawaky, tu peus toujours me demander

Feel free to correct me when you discover an horrible post from me and for the most if there is something to correct on FibsLeaGammon pages as Some helpfull players already remarked me  

And we all make me improve my english    if there is still something to do with it LOL

[diane]

Diane, read your own posts. It is you who wants to exclude people from bago on grounds of experience and you who thinks that the tournament is intended for "good" players. That is your stated view point, it's not "bashing diane" to point out what you are saying and disagree with it. It is also not a cheap shot to point out that most people's definition starts at around their own rating! I just wondered by what criteria, given that this is the bagolympics (!!), you considered that you were a suitable entrant and a new player, who may be vastly superior to you, not?

You know, you are demonstrating an almost don like ability to spectacularly miss the point - and now I really will read no more of your deliberate attempts to create arguments out of thin air.

Firstly - I NEVER said I would exclude on rating, secondly - you probably dont know I refused to play in the first few months of this - BECAUSE I am not good enough.  The only reason I play now is because it has changed somewhat.

The point was to prevent people creating new nicks to play in this tournnament for whatever reason - and if a few newbies fall into that - it is a VERY small number - since most are far too busy getting to know the system.
And I really would advise you to sign up as a TD with tourneybot and run some tournaments - and help some newbies into a tournament - and see how time consuming it can be.  Two newbies per tournament can delay start time by 5 or 10 mins - as they struggle to enter.  This is a more serious tournament - people show up (mostly  ) on time - expecting it to begin when it is supposed to begin.
I really do not take your point that to exclude them from one event for one maybe two weeks as they get the hang of things is elitist.  And you can remake it as often as you like, being as nasty to me as you like - I still will not see it.

[EddieVedd]

This is so tiresome. Diane has been one of the few people to absolutely go out of her way to make these events more accessable to ALL. Could people please make sure they have read ALL previous posts on a topic before challenging those that do the most work.

[dorbel]

I don't do this to hurt, I read a post, ask questions and give an opinion. In her latest post Diane says, "I never said I would exclude on rating". As I never suggested that she had, I don't see what point she is making here. She did say that she wished to exclude on experience, in order to weed out players creating a new nick, with which I disagreed. We hold a different viewpoint, where is the hurt? I have read every post on this topic Eddy. I cannot agree with you that excluding players who have been rude in shouts, excluding people who have created a new nick and excluding people with less than 400 exp is "absolutely going out of her way to make these events more accessible to all".
Diane does indeed work hard on the tournaments and has contributed a lot to improving fibs. She should be applauded for this and I applaud it. This shouldn't mean that her statements should be immune from criticism, or that she should close her ears to contrary points of view, although she, Eddy and tryout seem to think that it should. Why is that?