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Offline diane

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« Reply #40 on: May 31, 2005, 07:10:17 AM »
With the arguments raging over what can be said where - and who has the 'freest' society - can someone explain this kind of thing to me - it isnt the first time I have seen it - and know I have worn some contraversial t shirts which never even came close to getting me anything worse than a few looks...

Lawyer Arrested for Wearing a 'Peace' T-Shirt
Wed Mar 5, 8:30 AM ET

NEW YORK (Reuters) - A lawyer was arrested late Monday and charged with trespassing at a public mall in the state of New York after refusing to take off a T-shirt advocating peace that he had just purchased at the mall.

According to the criminal complaint filed on Monday, Stephen Downs was wearing a T-shirt bearing the words "Give Peace A Chance" that he had just purchased from a vendor inside the Crossgates Mall in Guilderland, New York, near Albany.

"I was in the food court with my son when I was confronted by two security guards and ordered to either take off the T-shirt or leave the mall," said Downs.

When Downs refused the security officers' orders, police from the town of Guilderland were called and he was arrested and taken away in handcuffs, charged with trespassing "in that he knowingly enter(ed) or remain(ed) unlawfully upon premises," the complaint read.

Downs said police tried to convince him he was wrong in his actions by refusing to remove the T-shirt because the mall "was like a private house and that I was acting poorly.

"I told them the analogy was not good and I was then hauled off to night court where I was arraigned after pleading not guilty and released on my own recognizance," Downs told Reuters in a telephone interview.

Downs is the director of the Albany Office of the state Commission on Judicial Conduct, which investigates complaints of misconduct against judges and can admonish, censure or remove judges found to have engaged in misconduct.

Calls to the Guilderland police and district attorney, Anthony Cardona and to officials at the mall were not returned for comment.

Downs is due back in court for a hearing on March 17.

He could face up to a year in prison if convicted.
« Last Edit: May 31, 2005, 07:10:49 AM by diane »
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« Reply #40 on: May 31, 2005, 07:10:17 AM »

Offline gammboy

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« Reply #41 on: May 31, 2005, 02:26:47 PM »
While I fail to see the relevance of this to the topic of this thread, the mall in question dropped the charges and fired the errant security guard that filed them.  

http://www.bizjournals.com/albany/stories/...03/daily41.html

The story you posted was published worldwide, but was only the accused's side of the story.  His assertion that he was quietly sitting in the food court with his son is in dispute.  When it was published in 2003, the mall and the police could not comment because the case was open and still under investigation.

In an attempt to tie this back to the topic, "Public" malls in the US are actually privately owned businesses.  As such, the owner can decide at any time that s/he no longer wants you on his/her property, and can ask you to leave.  This is very much the same with Fibs.  It is a privately owned service.  My access to it has been granted by the owner, and can be revoked at any time and for any reason the owner sees fit.  Patti can use her virtual security guards to eject me from her virtual Mall that is Fibs, because she doesn't like my t-shirt.  That is her prerogative, and her job as administrator.  I would hope that Patti would initiate some dialog with me before going to that extreme, but I support her right not to.
 
I have to say, Diane, that you have offered the most compelling argument against making archived fibs data public; that it may hurt Fibs.  Inim's idle threats of legal action are ridiculous, and his "demand" that I not publish his shouts comical.   However, your observation that publishing of the shout archive may scare away potential new players is reasonable and compelling.  (Though, in lieu of the shout archive, the actual shouts would likely scare them away anyway.)

GB

Offline vegas_vic

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« Reply #42 on: May 31, 2005, 03:06:10 PM »
YOU ALL NEED TO GET A  _______ LIFE!!

FOR GODS SAKE WHAT IS SAID IN SHOUTS IS 99% BULL SXXT.

WHAT YOU ARE GOING TO COME BACK TO ME WITH VIC YOU SAID SUCH AND SUCH ON 2PT TOURNEYS ON THIS DATE , AND YOU SAID THIS TO KARI ON THIS DATE :)

WHAT A WASTE OF TIME AND ENERGY , MAYBE YOU ALL SHOULD E-MAIL PATTI EVEYDAY AND ASK FOR HER LOGS,

THIS IS A GAME SERVER COME PLAY HAVE FUN AND GET THE _______ OUT !
« Last Edit: May 31, 2005, 04:22:24 PM by socksey »

Offline inim

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« Reply #43 on: May 31, 2005, 03:11:46 PM »
I am not a lawyer, but here is a brief intro in EU law (and thinking) on privacy.

1) in the EU you own your data and can deny anyone to use it.
2) in the EU you own the right on your public speeches and on your picture. Only exceptions are "persons of the public life" and pictures where a number of random passerbies are in the picture.
3) you can demand from anyone storing data about you to (i) reveal the exact nature of the data (ii) send you the exact data stored (iii) delete the data and send you a proof of it. All this has to be done on the expense at the party storing the data. Only exception is national security.
4) there is a dedicated federal officer (plus a number of state officers) whose job is it to enforce and protect privacy and deal with problems.
5) informational self-determination has the status of a constitutional right and strong reasons are needed to overrule the right of privacy.

This is way different from the US, where you do not have any rights in your data.

So looking at your 3 cases in that light:

Quote
Suppose you walk into a crowded bar in Germany, and shout "FIRE!" causing everyone to panic. Your local newspaper "published" an account of the event saying "German resident, Inim, shouted "FIRE!" at 3:06am yesterday, causing panic." You're telling me, that you would have a reasonable copyright infringement action against the newspaper for quoting what you said IN PUBLIC?
I don't think i can deny it because this is an event of public interest, and a false fire alert causing panic is close to a crime itself. I could, however, deny citation of almost anything else i say in a pub, public or not. The applicable law here is privacy, not copyright.

Quote
Suppose you stand up on a soapbox in Trafalgar Square, and deliver an anti-Bush speech to all who happen to be within earshot, and the local news channel is there. They play their film of you on the 6 O'Clock News. You have a reasonable action against them?
Absolutely, they need to ask to broadcast it. If they fail to they can easily be sued for compensation (and lose for sure).


Quote
Have you forbade Yahoo from including your postings to usenet in their archive? Do you think you would have a reasonable action against them if they refused?
No I can not because Yahoo! is in the USA. I could easily take action if the server was located in Europe.

Quote
but I am SO glad US law doesn't work this way. Here, people can be held responsible for what they say and do in Public. Here, if you say something, you better mean it.
Wrong again. All german phones and internet services are tapped by the federal government. So in case you cause legal problems, it is trivial to prosecute you under your real identity. Nevertheless, this is a prerogative of the authorities and under strict legal and parliamentary control.  I prefer this over the US approach, where everything is tapped under the Patriot Act but not sufficiently regulated, transparent or under parliamentary control. Better the devil you know, and better the feds than anyone technically able to intercept.

Please let the legal stuff rest for now, i hope you understand that laws and thinking about privacy in Europe are a lot different from what you have over there. Privacy is protected way stronger here, so what I do is no "idle threat". I just ask you to respect my constitutional rights.

inim
« Last Edit: May 31, 2005, 04:34:56 PM by inim »
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« Reply #43 on: May 31, 2005, 03:11:46 PM »

Offline vegas_vic

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« Reply #44 on: May 31, 2005, 03:21:05 PM »
%´%?%¯?ELL YOU ONCE AGAIN 99% OF SHOUTS ARE BULLSXXT AND BELONG IN THE TOILET NOT IN FIBSBOARD,
« Last Edit: May 31, 2005, 04:21:39 PM by socksey »

Offline inim

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« Reply #45 on: May 31, 2005, 03:42:13 PM »
Quote
I have decided that If I ultimately make this project public, I will do so on a US host.

Given that you are still determined to publish and there is no legal or technical way to protect myself, I'll request Patti to ban your bots and the IP they come from.

Quote
Having said all that, I respect your opinion and will consider it carefully before making any decision on this matter.

Too generous. But it's not me demanding here anything. You demand, as if it was the most natural thing in the world, the right to sniff fibs. In return, you do not offer any service. You did not ask Patti, and you did not ask the community. All you do is  brazenly ignore our rights and act if you were a one man NSA. Please explain to me the value of your project for fibs, Patti or the fibs community. I fail to see it, mabybe.

Furthermore, please explain me how you will handle

1) anonymization
2) opt in for users wanting to contribute to your log and opt out for users who won't (note: i would prefer opt in participation only)
3) A mechanism to have my data permanently deleted from your archives
4) Access control to your archives for humans and internet spiders

inim
« Last Edit: May 31, 2005, 04:07:59 PM by inim »
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Offline gammboy

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« Reply #46 on: May 31, 2005, 04:02:47 PM »
Quote
Given that you are still determined to publish amd there is no legal or technical way to protect myself, I'll request Patti to ban your bots and the IP they come from.

There's no need for that.  I have said before that all Patti needs to do is tell me to cease and desist, and I will do so.  She has not done so yet.

Quote
It's not me demanding here anything. You crept into fibs, do not offer any service, did not ask Patti, did not ask the community. All you do is sniff and infringe privacy. Please explain to me the value of your project for fibs, Patti or the fibs community. I fail to see it, mabybe.

I explained early in this thread what I thought the value was.  Some may feel it has no value, some may like it.  It is a personal exercize for me, and if Patti asks me to cease, I will.

Quote
1) anonymization

You're kidding, right.  Is "Inim" your full legal name?  How could anyone without cooperation from ISPs and court orders gain your true identity from the information on Fibs?


Quote
2) opt in for users wanting to contribute to your log and opt out for users who won't (note: i would prefer opt in)

There is no opt in/out functionality.  The data that Fibs produces is collected.  It is SENT to my bot. it is not REQUESTED by it.  

Quote
3) guarantee of deletion of my data if you are request to delete

I will delete any personally identifiable data that I happen to collect, at your request.  A shout is not personally identifiable data.  

Quote
4) Access control to your archives for humans and internet spiders

I would implement the same access control scheme as is in use on Fibs.  One that you have apparently agreed to as "secure enough" lest you would not be there.

GB

Offline NIHILIST

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« Reply #47 on: May 31, 2005, 04:40:55 PM »
Patti can't ask you to cease that which you have not done. Instead of everyone flapping his gums over this, why don't you email Patti, explain your idea and see if she'd be amenable to your project. I doubt she would.


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« Reply #47 on: May 31, 2005, 04:40:55 PM »

Offline SirLuzalot

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« Reply #48 on: May 31, 2005, 04:57:58 PM »
I haven't the time to read all input, but I find it somewhat disturbing what FIBS is turning into! I've been wanting to give my opinion for some time, now is the time!

I've been on FIBS a long, long time seems to me, on and off since 1997, and the first years, I didn't even pay any attention to shouts, but what I always liked was that it appeared to be a forum full of funny wacked out people with interest in a solid game, some letting out a voice perhaps that is never heard in real life. This is the beauty and the beast on FIBS.

It seems that most are interested in keeping track of disputes and I think putting it on record is a pretentious and utterly misunderstood procedure, I cannot see any reason for it, other than players keeping track of petty arguments that more than often take a whole new direction as others will interfere and ridicule the dispute, try to calm people down and help resolve their issues, which are mostly and should remain game related, I for one I really enjoy that part! Let's face it, players with personal issues stuck their nose too far in and should accept that not everyone share their opinions or are even interested in them! This is hard to handle!?

Keeping track of players shouts is outrageous, for what other reason than persecuting players later, seeking retribution or even worse; public persecution, and may I remind all here of the 'ruby' incident!?? If players cannot remember beginning, the middle or the end of a dispute? (real?), which some have claimed the redeeming feature of this whole idea, then it was probably not important to begin with? And someone needing substantiating proof of this or that in a space like FIBS, should not engage in a cybering in the first place, but stick with paper and pen, take notes and go see a professional!

I'm saddened that 'hacker' ideas are working their way into FIBS as well, I don't like the tendencies, it's sick in general and I do not want any part of it, and in my humble opinion, cyberworld is going bananas with 'greed' and piracy (really disturbed individuals!) and privacy is sacrificed to ideas with 'honest intentions'; but are these 'well meaning' individuals really so clever and will they remain in control of their material and 'good' senses. I know my webmaterial is just 'floating' around out there in a 'safe' place!

Worst of it all is the trap, being increasingly used to gadgets it all seems harmless, where can the harm be in something so easy? WAKE UP PEOPLE!

It is still tracking real people, records! We can argue that a player will use a pseudonym, but that is no longer secure, all players are tagged from place of entry, isn't that enough? Not much to consider in my book!! And it's not like I see a conspiracy out there, but I am worried for the human race and down to earth interests which seem at risk, and that the core of FIBS is being eaten away by intellectualizing something that really isn't there! It's a game space, but with written statements etc. can become a very real thing, given the opportunity, good but more probably bad, and privacy should and MUST remain the choice of any individual venturing into FIBS.  Let's remember the original idea of the internet, intellectual rebellion! Free thinking and information and possibilities on a global scale and beyond! This has been compromized by some people governed by greed for control! And they increase by the day. Now we'll let them into FIBS, if they're not there allready.. Greedy bugs!

If I sound paranoid, I'm not, rest assured. I can stand up to my sh*t in shout and in game and in life! If someone is offended by me, I'm sorry, and if someone on FIBS??! takes a leak on my boots I can live with it. I asked for it! I know how I'm interested in FIBS, all harmless pranks really. Agreed, some players have worse language than others, so what? It's hilarious! If some players can't hack it they should find another forum more suitable, there's lots out there, I suggest POGO. FIBS has a unique soul that should not be tampered with and the reason we keep coming back! It's should not be in control other than in fair play (I dislike the sometimes too convenient dice rolls of my opponent?).

I DO like the idea of player progress and other GAME related gimmicks, but this should also be a I suppose private thing, a feature that apparently only comes with JAVAfibs, I think is a lousy client btw, nevertheless a feature I imagine would be greatly welcomed by most. But I imagine even that could be abused somehow!

As for the rest, written abuse etc., all FIBSclients come with gag and blind features, friend and fiend, which I never use, except on e.g. the rare rubys and the whining bots, cause they're just lame space. As for the rest, I handle it or I stay out! People flamed, which rarely happens anymore anyway, often get in the way and that's their lesson. Stand up or stay low!

And may I say since the Fibsboard has come up, increasingly there is criticism, more than praise anyway, and some ridiculous vendettas and petty behaviour from quite a number of people out there. I miss some that are now gone! Gang mentality, in any form, holy or unholy, is disappointing and totally missing the point! It's poison! Let players make their own records fo shouts if they will, maybe in the course of doing so, they might wake up and smell the roses!

'A real world is close by'!

What does Pat think about this invasion of 'brilliant' ideas, I wonder?

Offline inim

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« Reply #49 on: May 31, 2005, 05:12:24 PM »
Code: [Select]
message Patti please ban the two bots "bigbrother" and "watchdog" coming in from 24.197.24.79. See http://www.fibsboard.com/index.php?showtopic=948 for why.

Message to Patti was saved.
« Last Edit: May 31, 2005, 05:12:50 PM by inim »
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Offline gammboy

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« Reply #50 on: May 31, 2005, 05:43:58 PM »
Quote
message Patti please ban the two bots "bigbrother" and "watchdog" coming in from 24.197.24.79. See http://www.fibsboard.com/index.php?showtopic=948 for why.

Message to Patti was saved.

So, there we have it.  Patti will cast the deciding vote (as it should be).

GB

Offline socksey

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« Reply #51 on: May 31, 2005, 06:11:14 PM »
Quote
However, your observation that publishing of the shout archive may scare away potential new players is reasonable and compelling. (Though, in lieu of the shout archive, the actual shouts would likely scare them away anyway.)

I have seen this happen already without an archive.  I cannot see that an archive would/should make any detrimental difference.   :huh:


Quote
WHAT YOU ARE GOING TO COME BACK TO ME WITH VIC YOU SAID SUCH AND SUCH ON 2PT TOURNEYS ON THIS DATE , AND YOU SAID THIS TO KARI ON THIS

We don't need to do that.  You already do that for us.   :lol:

Quote
and privacy should and MUST remain the choice of any individual venturing into FIBS

As you also said, shouting is the choice of the Fibs user.  No one need shout and no one need listen.

As a side note, this seems to be the most popular poll to date.   :P   Seems a lot have an opinion or do you think they are scared?  Maybe they don't want to see the evidence!  :rolleyes:

socksey



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« Reply #51 on: May 31, 2005, 06:11:14 PM »

Offline lewscannon

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« Reply #52 on: May 31, 2005, 06:52:46 PM »
Quote
For instance, it would be nice to know what my matches with lewscannon have been like over the last ten years.
These matches have resulted in my picking up lots of points and being able to shout: 'Ha Ha. I beat you Mookie, just like I said I would'.

Offline tapio

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« Reply #53 on: May 31, 2005, 08:21:48 PM »
Hah.
 
What i see is that those who do shout idioms or something like that (what is that then?) won't like to see themselves behave silly or bad and be recorded. What a nightmare.

Just act cool and shout funny things as most  fibsters do. Then you won't have to be afraid of anything.You can even sleep good.

I really don't care if anybody records my shouts, they are there all open.




 

Offline Mookie

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« Reply #54 on: June 01, 2005, 01:24:42 AM »
Quote
Quote
These matches have resulted in my picking up lots of points and being able to shout: 'Ha Ha. I beat you Mookie, just like I said I would'.
LOL. Lewcannon made fun of me in a way that I predicted.  I knew that he would.  LOL

mookie!
 

Offline don

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« Reply #55 on: June 01, 2005, 09:32:43 AM »
This is a pretty silly conversation.  Let's consider reality:
  • FIBS' shouts have been quoted in many forums over the years;
  • What you shout in public might just be quoted by the public;
  • Many people deny what they've shouted, revise their memories of what they've shouted, and don't like to be reminded of what they've shouted;
  • If someone wants to create an accessable archive of FIBS' shouts, there's no practical way to stop it from happening.
On the other hand:
  • There may be some European legal issue that says it's bad to quote someone's words;
  • Perhaps not, and it's certainly OK in the US;
  • Even if there exists some level of tort responsibility to an individual for quoting public information, there is no risk to FIBS since FIBS is not an active participant in the tort.
FIBS is anarchy.  If an individual wants to quote and archive that anarchy, that person is taking the task on alone and bears all legal responsibility.  I just witnessed a shout-session on FIBS in which the question was asked, "will tells and whispers be reported next?"  Well duh!  Any communication between individual entities on FIBS is electronic and may be recorded, but this has nothing to do with the well defined operations of FIBS.  Access to all 'tell's and 'whisper's is not available.  But there's nothing to stop an individual from quoting and archiving that individual's personal 'tell's and 'whisper's with all other FIBS UIDs.

The question of to archive or not to archive is moot, since it can't be stopped.  The only reasonable question to ask is if the archiver is presenting unedited and honest logs.
 
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« Reply #55 on: June 01, 2005, 09:32:43 AM »

Offline lewscannon

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« Reply #56 on: June 01, 2005, 01:40:21 PM »
Quote
%´%?%¯?ELL YOU ONCE AGAIN 99% OF SHOUTS ARE BULLSXXT AND BELONG IN THE TOILET NOT IN FIBSBOARD,
It looks like Vic just watched the whole 17-1 game between the Red Sox and Yankees

Offline inim

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« Reply #57 on: June 01, 2005, 02:27:29 PM »
WH4t @ 51CK WorLD 1N wH1cH +H3 0nLY w4y +0 pR0+3ct j00R PR1V4CY iS T0 B3H4Ve L1kE @ ScrIPt kIddIE.

inim


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Offline adamosad

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« Reply #58 on: June 01, 2005, 03:08:39 PM »
fUNNy prO9R4m but It eXPL@1NS w3LL j00R 4PPR04Ch !!!

Offline gammboy

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« Reply #59 on: June 01, 2005, 07:08:50 PM »
The purpose of this poll was to gauge whether the fibs community would like to have a daily shout log posted on Fibsboard.  Based on the discussion (not the poll results, that were poisoned) , I have decided not to post a daily shout log anywhere, fibsboard or elsewhere.

The factors that come into play are these:

 1)  A daily shout log would be indexed by search engines (robot.txt is supposed to control that, but is unreliable)  There is no benefit to this, and may serve to harm Fibs users.  
 2)  The possibility that someone may shout personally identifiable information, like "gammboy's debit card number is..." or "inim's phone number is..."
 3)  vegas_vic frightens me.  
 
Other than daily human moderation, #2 above cannot be resolved.   And so, a posted daily shout log will not happen.

The main question I hear is "What are you going to do with this data?".  

The current idea is to set up a web site that will have constantly updated, historical data and statistics.  For instance a "Who's hot, who's not" display showing weekly climbs and slides in ratings... that sort of thing.    Also you will be able to tell the bot to create a secure account for you on this website to access a personal page where you can see , real time, your data, ratings history, match history, charts, graphs, etc.  And to do research into that data.

Another use is so that other bots (repbot for instance) can have access to relevant information.  So if a future version of repbot were to take into account whether a complainer ever played a match with the complainee, for instance.

All the "...end of Fibs as we know it" crowd have it all wrong.  I envision this as an enhancement to Fibs.  Not some dark conspiracy to send everyone to jail.  I probaby should have spent my time writing a gnu cheat-bot instead.  At least then I could be in the 1700s and would have vegas_vic's respect.   :P

GB

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