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Offline gammboy

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« on: May 24, 2005, 10:48:52 PM »
As some of you know, I have been working on a bot that collects data from FIBS.  One of the things it does is generate a daily shouts archive.  This poll is to gauge how the Fibs community feels about a public shouts archive being posted.

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« on: May 24, 2005, 10:48:52 PM »

Offline Mookie

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« Reply #1 on: May 24, 2005, 10:54:53 PM »
GAMM!!!

I love the idea of a shout record--especially if players are reminded of it--as it will act somewhat panopticonish and keep people on their best behavior.  It would certainly make me think twice about some of the dumber, more knee-jerk shouts I sometimes make.   So, by all means, archive away.  Perhaps we can find someone on fibs who is a discourse analyst, and they can do a study on the archive overtime and publish a paper on something like "Scatology, Inanity, and Overt Innuendo: Repeated Topics in an Online Community."  

mookie, for whom--one again--you should VOUCH
 

Offline socksey

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« Reply #2 on: May 24, 2005, 11:25:50 PM »
Quote
I have been working on a bot that collects data from FIBS. One of the things it does is generate a daily shouts archive.

I used to love to be able to find something in shout archives when they were available before.  Was that a repbot feature?  You could enter any name and get everything that person ever shouted, or enter a date and get all the shouts for that date.  LOL  Anyway, I found it invaluable when trying to win an arguement!  :P  Being able to search something would be great to do again.   :D  

I've been keeping my own archives but they are far from complete since I only save when I am in Fibs.   :)

Yippee!   :cool:

socksey



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Offline spielberg

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« Reply #3 on: May 25, 2005, 08:19:04 AM »
This is an excellent idea and may well , as Mookie suggests, lead to a (gradual no doubt ) improvement in shouting behaviour.

My discourse analysis is hardly of professional standard and I much prefer covert to overt innuendo (tho' I join in ths shouts of course). Perhaps I could analyse on an amateur basis?

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« Reply #3 on: May 25, 2005, 08:19:04 AM »

Offline baldwin

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« Reply #4 on: May 25, 2005, 10:33:53 AM »
IMHO I think its quit neurotic to wanna keep track of it all. I hate it when i'm reminded by people: 'hey, you said.... beforë, and now you say....' juk. I love emotinal people who can regret their own behaviour. Think thats human.

Is this a gameserver or a mindblower? Is this server set up to play games or to point fingers at the 'Rubys'. (think he has to get his voice back anyway, but thats another topic worth.)

Luckely Dutch ISP's dont jump in to help gov. inst. on their search for virtual criminals. But here on fibs happy programmers collect all data you, might, ever need. Sick thought, sick thing.

Happy programming anyways.

Cheers Baldwin
 
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Offline adamosad

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« Reply #5 on: May 25, 2005, 12:23:57 PM »
Great idea Gammboy  :)  Go on!!!!  :yes:  

Offline socksey

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« Reply #6 on: May 25, 2005, 01:54:23 PM »
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Is this a gameserver or a mindblower?

Fibs has always been a mind blower for me.  That is the beauty of Fibs over other bg servers, isn't it?   :lol:  Yes, I think it can be a deterrent to the more flagrant Fibber's utterances.  Let the good times roll!   :yes:

socksey



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Offline diane

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« Reply #7 on: May 25, 2005, 04:32:00 PM »
I must say I am against this for a few reasons.  Firstly - I dont think it would do the slightest bit of good, no one who has any power to regulate the FIBS shout material is in the least bit interested in doing so - as we are all aware.  I further dont think the publication of shouts will make the offenders behave - anyone who thinks publishing his shouts will make NIHILIST change his personality is more delusional than I originally thought.
As well as that - the 'kids' who drop by to create a bit of fuss wont even be aware that is published - and less likely care.

The one and only approach we have to shield ourselves from the worst of all that goes on in shouts is to gag those we dont wish to hear - I take it this BOT wont gag anyone - so the content will not only be there in the moment - but be there forever!! And I am aware this board censors certain words - but come on - we can all fill in the blanks and the intent is immediately plain - and the hurt is caused.

So - if it is not going to change shouts for the better, and it will in the long run cause more hurt, what is the purpose?  Oh, wait - it might have one side effect - those who arent aware just how bad it is, day to day, might find out - and close the whole show down. Think about it.

 
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« Reply #7 on: May 25, 2005, 04:32:00 PM »

Offline diane

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« Reply #8 on: May 25, 2005, 04:58:47 PM »
A further point to consider is this.  A certain wealthy backgammon player is currently sueing another person for publishing comments on his website made by somone else (I cannot say who or what  ;) ).
This means any material published here - regardless of who said it, is the responsibility of the website owner and the moderators who allow that material to stand - do you want to saddle webrunner, socksey and the others with this personal liability?
I realise there probably arent many fibsters with the kind of money required to make a legal case out of anything here - but do you want to take the risk?
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Offline gammboy

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« Reply #9 on: May 25, 2005, 05:03:35 PM »
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Luckely Dutch ISP's dont jump in to help gov. inst. on their search for virtual criminals.

This is lucky?  So the Dutch ISPs provide safe haven for cyber criminals?  Maybe thats why so many of the phishing sites are run on Dutch IPs.   Now, stealing money for people's bank accounts is sick.  Far more sick than collecting Fibs data.

Anyway, I value and appreciate your opinions, pro or con.  I think I need to say that the shout log is just one minor facet of this project.  What it could become is a searchable database of FIBS history.

Here's an example:

mysql> select * from player_ratings where player_name = 'socksey';
+-------------+---------------------+---------+------------+
| player_name | change_date         | rating  | experience |
+-------------+---------------------+---------+------------+
| socksey     | 2005-05-20 10:42:40 | 1554.33 |   38613.00 |
| socksey     | 2005-05-20 10:59:56 | 1557.83 |   38616.00 |
| socksey     | 2005-05-20 11:29:10 | 1560.63 |   38619.00 |
| socksey     | 2005-05-20 12:37:09 | 1557.83 |   38622.00 |
| socksey     | 2005-05-20 12:45:38 | 1559.66 |   38623.00 |
| socksey     | 2005-05-20 12:57:21 | 1557.60 |   38624.00 |
| socksey     | 2005-05-24 11:47:49 | 1575.45 |   38664.00 |
+-------------+---------------------+---------+------------+
7 rows in set (0.04 sec)

(Bear in mind, the data collection has not been running 24/7, so the above is not all inclusive)

Whenever a player's rating changes, a new record is added to player_ratings.  So socksey now has a tool by which she can graph her progress in the ratings.

Want to see matches you've played?
 
mysql> select player1, player2, start_time, match_points from matches where player1 = 'socksey' or player2 = 'socksey';
+----------+---------------+---------------------+--------------+
| player1  | player2       | start_time          | match_points |
+----------+---------------+---------------------+--------------+
| socksey  | conderocks    | 2005-05-17 22:59:37 |            1 |
| socksey  | jodvm         | 2005-05-17 23:17:21 |            3 |
| socksey  | sponi         | 2005-05-18 01:14:07 |            3 |
| RomanP   | socksey       | 2005-05-18 12:39:41 |            7 |
| Duck     | socksey       | 2005-05-19 15:19:24 |            1 |
| lobowolf | socksey       | 2005-05-20 10:42:41 |            3 |
| socksey  | spartiati     | 2005-05-20 10:59:57 |            3 |
| Noah     | socksey       | 2005-05-20 11:29:10 |            3 |
| socksey  | LinkMasterJoe | 2005-05-20 12:04:47 |            7 |
| socksey  | Mystyk        | 2005-05-20 12:45:38 |            1 |
| socksey  | blotsalot     | 2005-05-23 13:24:31 |            5 |
+----------+---------------+---------------------+--------------+
11 rows in set (0.02 sec)

There are unlimited possibilities for data mining here.  The question is, for whom is it useful, and is the view worth the climb?


GB

Offline gammboy

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« Reply #10 on: May 25, 2005, 05:07:53 PM »
Quote
So - if it is not going to change shouts for the better, and it will in the long run cause more hurt, what is the purpose? Oh, wait - it might have one side effect - those who arent aware just how bad it is, day to day, might find out - and close the whole show down. Think about it.

This is a very compelling argument against.  I have to say, the last thing I would want to do is to cause any problems for the operators of Fibs or Fibsboard.

GB

 

Offline Mookie

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« Reply #11 on: May 25, 2005, 08:27:22 PM »
A few matters:

Reardless of the record of shouts, I love the idea of the record of my matches.  I used to keep a hard copy of matches because I was interested in my history with particular players.  For instance, it would be nice to know what my matches with lewscannon have been like over the last ten years.  Now, I know your program won't work in retrospect, but it will be nice years from now to be able to do this.  Plug on, GAMM!, it's a great idea.

Now, about the record of shout functions, I have a few words to add, but before I do, let me be clear that while I still like the idea and would still vote yes, I have little investment one way or the other in how this turns out.

Two points, however:

1. diane says repeatedly that such a function would change no one's behavior.  while i understand that this may be true of many shouters, i think her claim is way overgeneralized.  I, for instance, already said in an earlier post that it would change MY behavior at times.  Not that I'm all that ill-behaved, but I have had moments of regret that wouldn't have occured if I held myself back.  Thinking of seeing stupid shouts shown to me a few weeks later WOULD change my behavior.  Surely, if it would shape mine, it would indeed shape some others.

2. since it is already possible for people to create personal or fibs-based logfiles of shouts, does that mean that all of these folks are ALREADY legally responsible for hosting fibs, fibsboard, etc.?

Bonus point.  3. i would still like to see someone do a content analysis of the shouts.  i would guess that "poop" and its variations would come out close to the top, right behind, strangely enough, the word "feet."

MOOKIE, who will give you 15% off on friday if you vouch for him today!

 

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« Reply #11 on: May 25, 2005, 08:27:22 PM »

Offline diane

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« Reply #12 on: May 26, 2005, 12:36:41 AM »
Quote
Whenever a player's rating changes, a new record is added to player_ratings.  So socksey now has a tool by which she can graph her progress in the ratings.

Want to see matches you've played?
 
This certainly has some appeal for those who don't use javafibs - which already does all of this for you - including a nice plot of rating over time (1 week, month or year).

And to answer mookies point about legality - I dont know - I havent been closely involved in the case - but the shout logs as recorded are tamperable - ie - you can save a log and change the content - I think this would affect how much legal comeback a person may have.  A published document - on a site such as this is a different matter entirely - and whilst the moderators may remove material which is particularly offensive - doesn't this then defeat the objective you all have?
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Offline gammboy

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« Reply #13 on: May 26, 2005, 01:05:48 AM »
Quote
This certainly has some appeal for those who don't use javafibs - which already does all of this for you - including a nice plot of rating over time (1 week, month or year).

But what if YOU want to know SOCKSEY's progress in the ratings?   What if you are curious about mookie's performance against lewscannon?  What if you want to know what times and dates someone you have a saved game with is usually on?  What if some future version of repbot wants to know if you are complaining about someone you have actually played a game with?  These are things that current client software can't do.

About the legal issues:  in the US, courts have consistently defended keepers of archives of public postings.  For instance, Yahoo archives and provides a search engine for all of usenet.  They cannot be held responsible for my postings on rec.games.backgammon any more than webrunner could be held responsible for a fibs shout archive.  Free speech in public forums such as fibs are protected by the US constitution when they are hosted in the US. I have no information about world courts on this issue.  If they are less protective of free speech, perhaps hosting the archive on a US server would be prudent.

I certainly understand your concerns, and I share them.  I don't want to do any harm to fibs, or fibsboard.  This project is, first, a learning experience for me, and second, a (possible) enhancement to fibs.  Whether it is seen as an enhancement or not is the point of this poll.  If it is, I will endeavor to make it accessable to the fibs community, if not, I'll gain the experience and let it die.  Either way, for me, it is a worthwhile project.

GB

 

Offline diane

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« Reply #14 on: May 26, 2005, 01:53:05 AM »
Quote
But what if YOU want to know SOCKSEY's progress in the ratings?   What if you are curious about mookie's performance against lewscannon?  What if you want to know what times and dates someone you have a saved game with is usually on?  What if some future version of repbot wants to know if you are complaining about someone you have actually played a game with?  These are things that current client software can't do.

 
This is definately worthwhile data - I am sure people will be able to make good use of it for a range of applications.

Your comments are interesting on the status in America - I would be curious about the rest of the world too - I know having consulted some legal minds (including American ones) re the bandying about of the nazi insult - this is most definately a legal matter - for anyone who has the money to throw at it.  

My main concern is that whilst it is bad enough that these type of insults are present in the transient forum of shouts - I dont want to see them kept for posterity - to continue to offend and hurt those they were aimed at.

And as for making people behave differently - I just dont see it - the worst offenders are not the likes of mookie who may have a silly moment - these can be apologised away later, it is the very much more unpleasant stuff - usually spouted from people passing by, and a few well known established characters.  The behaviour of these established characters is well documented already - and nothing has ever been done. I dont see that changing - so all we achieve is the permanent storage of things best never said.

I would like to see the shouts on fibs improved - and am currently toggled silent because I need a break from it, but until I see some form of commitment from anyone with the ability to do anything about it - I dont see the point in further distressing those whom the shouts are aimed at.
« Last Edit: May 26, 2005, 01:56:14 AM by diane »
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Offline socksey

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« Reply #15 on: May 26, 2005, 04:07:45 AM »
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This means any material published here - regardless of who said it, is the responsibility of the website owner and the moderators who allow that material to stand - do you want to saddle webrunner, socksey and the others with this personal liability?

I think you are being too paranoid, diane.  The shout was made publicly already.  How could anyone have a case with that in mind?  Or if they did, they certainly couldn't get much out of me so I wouldn't feel "saddled" with anything.  

As I said before, the old archive access was great fun to play with.  

I recall being supremely embarrassed by some of the things I have shouted.  Like mookie, I would be censoring myself a bit more and this could have the same effect on many.  In any case, not something to be overly concerned about.  Look at it this way.......more optimistically.........this could have a positive effect on Fibs shouts.  Think of the glass as being half full........not half empty.   ;)

socksey



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« Last Edit: May 26, 2005, 04:11:59 AM by socksey »

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« Reply #15 on: May 26, 2005, 04:07:45 AM »

Offline adamosad

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« Reply #16 on: May 26, 2005, 12:23:53 PM »
Can you see the luck in each game too with all other statistics? In socksey example above you can see her rating and you can know if she won or lost.

Can you think something to make this bot to show the luck that gnu shows too?
« Last Edit: May 26, 2005, 12:25:27 PM by adamosad »

Offline gammboy

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« Reply #17 on: May 26, 2005, 02:03:45 PM »
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Can you think something to make this bot to show the luck that gnu shows too?

No.  Unfortunately this (or any) bot can not see the rolls and moves in the games.  I suppose it could watch and do some analysis, but it could only watch one game at the time, so the vast majority of games would be missed.  It does know about games in progress, so I suppose it could do a series of "look" commands to simultaneously monitor and analyze all games, but I'm afraid something like that would overwhelm the FIBS server.

So, unfortunately, this bot is limited to collecting the same data that you would see if you logged in via telnet.

GB

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« Reply #18 on: May 26, 2005, 02:18:17 PM »
What about reputation? can you put it in? I want to find a way to see the rep of each player across the time. It is easy to do that for rating and exper i think. Can i do that for rep too?

Offline adrian

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« Reply #19 on: May 26, 2005, 08:42:56 PM »
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A further point to consider is this.  A certain wealthy backgammon player is currently sueing another person for publishing comments on his website made by somone else (I cannot say who or what  ;) ).
This means any material published here - regardless of who said it, is the responsibility of the website owner and the moderators who allow that material to stand - do you want to saddle webrunner, socksey and the others with this personal liability?
I realise there probably arent many fibsters with the kind of money required to make a legal case out of anything here - but do you want to take the risk?

 :angry: The above will happen to us here in Romania when we will join EU. I hate not to being able to piss o the neighbour fence because of the risk of a mistrial.

Gammboy, DO IT. At least it will be fun for me. The others will do and use the results of your work as they like.

(Hello diane, missed ya!  B)   )
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Offline adrian

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« Reply #20 on: May 26, 2005, 08:55:49 PM »
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My main concern is that whilst it is bad enough that these type of insults are present in the transient forum of shouts - I dont want to see them kept for posterity - to continue to offend and hurt those they were aimed at.

:rolleyes:  Pain is in our minds. Men forget in next ten minutes , women remember everything forever!  ;)  
Helping people is tricky. Give help to anyone and he will remember it only when he is in need again.

Offline adamosad

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« Reply #21 on: May 26, 2005, 09:14:23 PM »
and maybe after life too, Adrian  :lol:  

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« Reply #22 on: May 26, 2005, 10:41:50 PM »
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:rolleyes:  Pain is in our minds. Men forget in next ten minutes , women remember everything forever!  ;)
Erm, have you met don???  :P  
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« Reply #23 on: May 27, 2005, 05:26:09 PM »
Gammboy, I'm still waitting an answer about the repbot statistics... I really need a reputation time variant variable for a future project

 

Offline gammboy

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« Reply #24 on: May 27, 2005, 09:00:43 PM »
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Gammboy, I'm still waitting an answer about the repbot statistics... I really need a reputation time variant variable for a future project

Sorry.  Missed that post.  Reputation is a function of repbot, and is not part of FIBS' regular data  stream, and so I don't currently collect it.   I could have my bot query repbot and collect that data as well, but I would want to speak to repbot's master (burper?) before doing so.  I don't want to cause any problems for repbot with the volume of queries my bot  could potentially generate.

GB

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« Reply #25 on: May 27, 2005, 10:06:14 PM »
So if you find the repbot's creator and answer you positively, is it ok with you to add this info into your bot's database?

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« Reply #26 on: May 27, 2005, 11:36:17 PM »
Collecting shouts is very easy technically.  I can not control private archiving, but publishing them is another thing, which i strongly object. You may try to open such a service, but you need a clear opt in or opt out mechanism, as you do not hold any rights on shouted material. That right is with the respective owners. This is true even more as fibsboard is commercial, i.e. making money with advertising. Thus:

I hereby prohibit anybody from publishing material i shouted. Do whatever you like with your shouts, i demand my shouts not to be published. Public material in no way is free to use, thus the argument it is a public shout anyway is wrong. This is backed by european law on intellectual property and protection of privacy.

inim

P.S. Technically speaking, I will blind and gag any collecting bot on sight.
 
« Last Edit: May 28, 2005, 12:08:12 AM by inim »
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Offline diane

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« Reply #27 on: May 28, 2005, 02:01:48 AM »
I agree - tell me who - by courtesy - and I too will gag and blind  :D My conversations are by their nature of the moment - not to be kept.
 
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« Reply #28 on: May 28, 2005, 05:41:42 AM »
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I agree - tell me who - by courtesy - and I too will gag and blind  :D
I just checked it out, the bad news is there is no technical way to prevent your shouts from being logged. GAG and BLIND do not affect the CLIPS protocol. The well known "permagag" feature of clients like JavaFibs is only local in nature. That means that they suppress unwanted shouts only at the display level, the server still broadcasts them to all (including you).

inim
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Offline socksey

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« Reply #29 on: May 28, 2005, 06:24:36 AM »
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Public material in no way is free to use, thus the argument it is a public shout anyway is wrong. This is backed by european law on intellectual property and protection of privacy.

So, are you going to come to prosecute me in the USA, hire an attorney in my State, and let me be tried by a jury of my peers?

You aren't being private when you shout something 100+ ppl can hear/see.  Fess up, take it like a man.  If you said it, you should be prepared to eat it.   :P

socksey



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Offline inim

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« Reply #30 on: May 28, 2005, 07:37:56 AM »
No socks, this has do do nothing with "take it like a man". I sum up:

1. Publication

Fibsboard is a "publication", which is legally way different from shout. Basically it is a permanent storage vs. a temporary. The right to copy something is called copyright, which is infringed by making my shouts permanent.

2. Privacy

Under european law, unlike under US law, you actually own your data. Thus anyone who wanna make use of it must ask your permission ("opt in").  Fibsboard is located in the Netherlands and thus subject to EU law. I explicitly denied that permission.

3. Editorial responsibility

The publisher of the material is legally responsible for the content. Under german law it e.g. is a criminal offense to deny the holocaust. Thus if someone did so in shout, the editorial team (webrunner, socksey) are guilty of publishing illegal content.

4. Uselessness

There is no use in making shouts public. Anybody who want's to archive them can do so in a 20 line script. It's trivial.

Summary: Log what you want, but don't publish it.

inim
« Last Edit: May 28, 2005, 07:44:10 AM by inim »
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Offline socksey

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« Reply #31 on: May 28, 2005, 10:43:10 PM »
Quote
I could have my bot query repbot and collect that data as well, but I would want to speak to repbot's master (burper?) before doing so.

Burper was Repbot's creator, but he gave it to someone else.  I'm sure burper would be happy to help, tho, if you can catch him, or leave a message for him.   ;)

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« Reply #32 on: May 28, 2005, 11:37:36 PM »
I think the administrator now is Avik. You can catch him or leave him a message too...

Offline BladeRunner

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« Reply #33 on: May 29, 2005, 03:39:30 AM »
some people may be afraid of harrassing (*ehem diane*) others at fibs, and therefore a reluctance of keeping logs of shouts, and if anybody sues somebody else over FIBS issues, i don't think judge judy will really care about it...
keeping track of shouts would clarify a lot of things for the major sysop
socksey, as usual, is always in the money!! (for eurofibsters: she is alway right in her appreciations)
« Last Edit: May 29, 2005, 06:14:21 PM by socksey »


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Offline inim

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« Reply #34 on: May 29, 2005, 04:56:39 AM »
Quote
keeping track of shouts would clarify a lot of things for the major sysop
 

To clarify that: the "major sysop" Patti surely has a log to safeguard herself in case of legal issues. If the server was in Europe, she was obliged by law to have one. She wisely does not publish them. Due to the CLIPS protocol, however, anybody can log shouts and some data regarding log in, and start/end of matches. This is not possible with any commercial server I am aware of, also for good reasons.

The current discussion is about: (1) a user run bot which (2) records shouts and (3) posts them on a web server. This is third party compared to Patti. All i oppose is (3).

I am aware of 3 parties interested in data collection from fibs:

1) adamosad wants to use the material collected for his thesis
2) gammboy is new to bot programming and fascinated by what can be done.
3) some here see a shout archive may have a positive effect on shouters

I am not willing to sell a good as precious as my privacy for any of the above mentioned reasons. Informational self-determination is a constitutional right  in Europe, which is a valuable achivement.

 All a public web based log will achive is spiders like google will index the material and our conversation will become world visible. If you open the bottle, the jinny is out. Is that what you want? For the above mentioned requirements there are easier solutions without the price.

1) Adam can keep non public logs and still use it (in an anonymous way) for his research
2) gammboy may cowork with adamosad on their common hobby data-mining, eventually yielding academic output even.  Any existing bot can be made a logging bot by adding 20 lines.  Any programmer can write the proposed bot in less than a day, maybe in less than an hour.
3) It would be easy to make a log available to administrators  (whoever that would be). It does not need a bot for that, nor to make it searchable on the web. The problem here is access control,, not collecting the data.

I know a lot about data mining, hands on. That's why i so strongly oppose the proposition. There is no harmless data, even if you have nothing to hide like me.  

inim

P.S.Directive 95/46/EC is the applicable law for a EU based server like fibsboard.  US law, which is much weaker (not only since the infamous patriot act), is not applicable. That would be different if the publication was done at a US based server like fibs.com.
« Last Edit: May 29, 2005, 05:35:12 AM by inim »
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Offline alluring

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« Reply #35 on: May 29, 2005, 05:59:31 AM »
I really don't care what you do with my shouts, nor do I give a damn, nor am I going to change the way I talk in shout. If you want to record my shouts go ahead, and if you want to hear me say it again, just ask me in shout and I will say it over and over if you didn't get it the first time.
Oh and if you want a tape of my shouts just send $19.99 and you can hear me in your dreams lol :lol:
 

 With all my shouts awaiting you.....Alluring

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« Reply #36 on: May 29, 2005, 06:21:21 PM »
LOL  Alluring, a girl after my own heart!  D**n the torpedos!  Full steam ahead!  

I just had a thought.  What if we could make the shouts anonymous somehow, numbered, perhaps.  Example:

Shouter #1 says:  STFU!  
Shouter #2 says:  f*****g, fibs!
Shouter #2 says:  he has one opening, 3.  he rolls 3 3, 6 6, 5 5, 6 6, 4 4.

We Fibbers would all know who those were, but the "world" wouldn't.  Well, it's a thought!   :lol:  

socksey



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« Last Edit: May 29, 2005, 06:28:25 PM by socksey »

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« Reply #37 on: May 29, 2005, 06:36:17 PM »
Well I had the same thought with you Socksey. Collecting the data for rating, exper, rep of each player in fibs through time, and coding each one as player 1, player 2 etc...

This way maybe it's the best and inim may like it too :D  

Offline gammboy

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« Reply #38 on: May 31, 2005, 06:09:14 AM »
LOL - Inim, you kill me.

Suppose you walk into a crowded bar in Germany, and shout "FIRE!" causing everyone to panic.  Your local newspaper "published" an account of the event saying "German resident, Inim, shouted "FIRE!" at 3:06am yesterday, causing panic."  You're telling me, that you would have a reasonable copyright infringement action against the newspaper for quoting what you said IN PUBLIC?

Suppose you stand up on a soapbox in Trafalgar Square, and deliver an anti-Bush speech to all who happen to be within earshot, and the local news channel is there.  They play their film of you on the 6 O'Clock News.  You have a reasonable action against them?

Have you forbade Yahoo from including your postings to usenet in their archive?  Do you think you would have a reasonable action against them if they refused?

I admit, I am completely ignorant of European law, but I am SO glad US law doesn't work this way.  Here, people can be held responsible for what they say and do in Public.  Here, if you say something, you better mean it.  Regardless, after Diane's post early in this trhread, I have decided that If I ultimately make this project public, I will do so on a US host.

I won't even start to get into the fact that you shout on Fibs under an ALIAS.  How could you even prove to the court that it was YOU who shouted what you did?  Particularly since Fibs logs will show "Inim" logging on from IPs in Germany and the US within minutes of each other.  

You yourself have asserted, and proved that IP logs are useless.  Therefore, you cannot even prove that you are Inim. Do you really think any court in any land would take you seriously?  I doubt it, and I know for sure no US court would.

Having said all that, I respect your opinion and will consider it carefully before making any decision on this matter.

GB

PS  If you figure out that reverse-gag thing, where you can keep people from hearing what you shout, please let me know.

Offline diane

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« Reply #39 on: May 31, 2005, 06:27:34 AM »
Quote
I really don't care what you do with my shouts, nor do I give a damn, nor am I going to change the way I talk in shout. If you want to record my shouts go ahead, and if you want to hear me say it again, just ask me in shout and I will say it over and over if you didn't get it the first time.


 With all my shouts awaiting you.....Alluring
Thats because you dont say extremely nasty things to people alluring  - and consequently, I wouldnt object to any shouts of yours being published - it would be fun.  So would the majority of fibsters.  And as for my harrassing shouts, since they are mainly addressed to droppers *ahem, bladerunner (replicant)*, That would also be a useful archive for dropper information.
My objections are long term storage of offensive material - best not said once, let alone published.  Since I cant speak for others - I can only ask my shouts arent published - and would do that - in order to make it more difficult for the shout log as a whole to be published.
I do not wander round with a tape recorder all day to keep my conversations so I can remember what I said - I use my memory - what is there - ever - in shouts to make it worth keeping ??? Hugs all round?????
Never give up on the things that make you smile

Offline diane

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« Reply #40 on: May 31, 2005, 07:10:17 AM »
With the arguments raging over what can be said where - and who has the 'freest' society - can someone explain this kind of thing to me - it isnt the first time I have seen it - and know I have worn some contraversial t shirts which never even came close to getting me anything worse than a few looks...

Lawyer Arrested for Wearing a 'Peace' T-Shirt
Wed Mar 5, 8:30 AM ET

NEW YORK (Reuters) - A lawyer was arrested late Monday and charged with trespassing at a public mall in the state of New York after refusing to take off a T-shirt advocating peace that he had just purchased at the mall.

According to the criminal complaint filed on Monday, Stephen Downs was wearing a T-shirt bearing the words "Give Peace A Chance" that he had just purchased from a vendor inside the Crossgates Mall in Guilderland, New York, near Albany.

"I was in the food court with my son when I was confronted by two security guards and ordered to either take off the T-shirt or leave the mall," said Downs.

When Downs refused the security officers' orders, police from the town of Guilderland were called and he was arrested and taken away in handcuffs, charged with trespassing "in that he knowingly enter(ed) or remain(ed) unlawfully upon premises," the complaint read.

Downs said police tried to convince him he was wrong in his actions by refusing to remove the T-shirt because the mall "was like a private house and that I was acting poorly.

"I told them the analogy was not good and I was then hauled off to night court where I was arraigned after pleading not guilty and released on my own recognizance," Downs told Reuters in a telephone interview.

Downs is the director of the Albany Office of the state Commission on Judicial Conduct, which investigates complaints of misconduct against judges and can admonish, censure or remove judges found to have engaged in misconduct.

Calls to the Guilderland police and district attorney, Anthony Cardona and to officials at the mall were not returned for comment.

Downs is due back in court for a hearing on March 17.

He could face up to a year in prison if convicted.
« Last Edit: May 31, 2005, 07:10:49 AM by diane »
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Offline gammboy

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« Reply #41 on: May 31, 2005, 02:26:47 PM »
While I fail to see the relevance of this to the topic of this thread, the mall in question dropped the charges and fired the errant security guard that filed them.  

http://www.bizjournals.com/albany/stories/...03/daily41.html

The story you posted was published worldwide, but was only the accused's side of the story.  His assertion that he was quietly sitting in the food court with his son is in dispute.  When it was published in 2003, the mall and the police could not comment because the case was open and still under investigation.

In an attempt to tie this back to the topic, "Public" malls in the US are actually privately owned businesses.  As such, the owner can decide at any time that s/he no longer wants you on his/her property, and can ask you to leave.  This is very much the same with Fibs.  It is a privately owned service.  My access to it has been granted by the owner, and can be revoked at any time and for any reason the owner sees fit.  Patti can use her virtual security guards to eject me from her virtual Mall that is Fibs, because she doesn't like my t-shirt.  That is her prerogative, and her job as administrator.  I would hope that Patti would initiate some dialog with me before going to that extreme, but I support her right not to.
 
I have to say, Diane, that you have offered the most compelling argument against making archived fibs data public; that it may hurt Fibs.  Inim's idle threats of legal action are ridiculous, and his "demand" that I not publish his shouts comical.   However, your observation that publishing of the shout archive may scare away potential new players is reasonable and compelling.  (Though, in lieu of the shout archive, the actual shouts would likely scare them away anyway.)

GB

Offline vegas_vic

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« Reply #42 on: May 31, 2005, 03:06:10 PM »
YOU ALL NEED TO GET A  _______ LIFE!!

FOR GODS SAKE WHAT IS SAID IN SHOUTS IS 99% BULL SXXT.

WHAT YOU ARE GOING TO COME BACK TO ME WITH VIC YOU SAID SUCH AND SUCH ON 2PT TOURNEYS ON THIS DATE , AND YOU SAID THIS TO KARI ON THIS DATE :)

WHAT A WASTE OF TIME AND ENERGY , MAYBE YOU ALL SHOULD E-MAIL PATTI EVEYDAY AND ASK FOR HER LOGS,

THIS IS A GAME SERVER COME PLAY HAVE FUN AND GET THE _______ OUT !
« Last Edit: May 31, 2005, 04:22:24 PM by socksey »

Offline inim

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« Reply #43 on: May 31, 2005, 03:11:46 PM »
I am not a lawyer, but here is a brief intro in EU law (and thinking) on privacy.

1) in the EU you own your data and can deny anyone to use it.
2) in the EU you own the right on your public speeches and on your picture. Only exceptions are "persons of the public life" and pictures where a number of random passerbies are in the picture.
3) you can demand from anyone storing data about you to (i) reveal the exact nature of the data (ii) send you the exact data stored (iii) delete the data and send you a proof of it. All this has to be done on the expense at the party storing the data. Only exception is national security.
4) there is a dedicated federal officer (plus a number of state officers) whose job is it to enforce and protect privacy and deal with problems.
5) informational self-determination has the status of a constitutional right and strong reasons are needed to overrule the right of privacy.

This is way different from the US, where you do not have any rights in your data.

So looking at your 3 cases in that light:

Quote
Suppose you walk into a crowded bar in Germany, and shout "FIRE!" causing everyone to panic. Your local newspaper "published" an account of the event saying "German resident, Inim, shouted "FIRE!" at 3:06am yesterday, causing panic." You're telling me, that you would have a reasonable copyright infringement action against the newspaper for quoting what you said IN PUBLIC?
I don't think i can deny it because this is an event of public interest, and a false fire alert causing panic is close to a crime itself. I could, however, deny citation of almost anything else i say in a pub, public or not. The applicable law here is privacy, not copyright.

Quote
Suppose you stand up on a soapbox in Trafalgar Square, and deliver an anti-Bush speech to all who happen to be within earshot, and the local news channel is there. They play their film of you on the 6 O'Clock News. You have a reasonable action against them?
Absolutely, they need to ask to broadcast it. If they fail to they can easily be sued for compensation (and lose for sure).


Quote
Have you forbade Yahoo from including your postings to usenet in their archive? Do you think you would have a reasonable action against them if they refused?
No I can not because Yahoo! is in the USA. I could easily take action if the server was located in Europe.

Quote
but I am SO glad US law doesn't work this way. Here, people can be held responsible for what they say and do in Public. Here, if you say something, you better mean it.
Wrong again. All german phones and internet services are tapped by the federal government. So in case you cause legal problems, it is trivial to prosecute you under your real identity. Nevertheless, this is a prerogative of the authorities and under strict legal and parliamentary control.  I prefer this over the US approach, where everything is tapped under the Patriot Act but not sufficiently regulated, transparent or under parliamentary control. Better the devil you know, and better the feds than anyone technically able to intercept.

Please let the legal stuff rest for now, i hope you understand that laws and thinking about privacy in Europe are a lot different from what you have over there. Privacy is protected way stronger here, so what I do is no "idle threat". I just ask you to respect my constitutional rights.

inim
« Last Edit: May 31, 2005, 04:34:56 PM by inim »
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Offline vegas_vic

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« Reply #44 on: May 31, 2005, 03:21:05 PM »
%´%?%¯?ELL YOU ONCE AGAIN 99% OF SHOUTS ARE BULLSXXT AND BELONG IN THE TOILET NOT IN FIBSBOARD,
« Last Edit: May 31, 2005, 04:21:39 PM by socksey »

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« Reply #45 on: May 31, 2005, 03:42:13 PM »
Quote
I have decided that If I ultimately make this project public, I will do so on a US host.

Given that you are still determined to publish and there is no legal or technical way to protect myself, I'll request Patti to ban your bots and the IP they come from.

Quote
Having said all that, I respect your opinion and will consider it carefully before making any decision on this matter.

Too generous. But it's not me demanding here anything. You demand, as if it was the most natural thing in the world, the right to sniff fibs. In return, you do not offer any service. You did not ask Patti, and you did not ask the community. All you do is  brazenly ignore our rights and act if you were a one man NSA. Please explain to me the value of your project for fibs, Patti or the fibs community. I fail to see it, mabybe.

Furthermore, please explain me how you will handle

1) anonymization
2) opt in for users wanting to contribute to your log and opt out for users who won't (note: i would prefer opt in participation only)
3) A mechanism to have my data permanently deleted from your archives
4) Access control to your archives for humans and internet spiders

inim
« Last Edit: May 31, 2005, 04:07:59 PM by inim »
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Offline gammboy

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« Reply #46 on: May 31, 2005, 04:02:47 PM »
Quote
Given that you are still determined to publish amd there is no legal or technical way to protect myself, I'll request Patti to ban your bots and the IP they come from.

There's no need for that.  I have said before that all Patti needs to do is tell me to cease and desist, and I will do so.  She has not done so yet.

Quote
It's not me demanding here anything. You crept into fibs, do not offer any service, did not ask Patti, did not ask the community. All you do is sniff and infringe privacy. Please explain to me the value of your project for fibs, Patti or the fibs community. I fail to see it, mabybe.

I explained early in this thread what I thought the value was.  Some may feel it has no value, some may like it.  It is a personal exercize for me, and if Patti asks me to cease, I will.

Quote
1) anonymization

You're kidding, right.  Is "Inim" your full legal name?  How could anyone without cooperation from ISPs and court orders gain your true identity from the information on Fibs?


Quote
2) opt in for users wanting to contribute to your log and opt out for users who won't (note: i would prefer opt in)

There is no opt in/out functionality.  The data that Fibs produces is collected.  It is SENT to my bot. it is not REQUESTED by it.  

Quote
3) guarantee of deletion of my data if you are request to delete

I will delete any personally identifiable data that I happen to collect, at your request.  A shout is not personally identifiable data.  

Quote
4) Access control to your archives for humans and internet spiders

I would implement the same access control scheme as is in use on Fibs.  One that you have apparently agreed to as "secure enough" lest you would not be there.

GB

Offline NIHILIST

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« Reply #47 on: May 31, 2005, 04:40:55 PM »
Patti can't ask you to cease that which you have not done. Instead of everyone flapping his gums over this, why don't you email Patti, explain your idea and see if she'd be amenable to your project. I doubt she would.


NIHI
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Offline SirLuzalot

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« Reply #48 on: May 31, 2005, 04:57:58 PM »
I haven't the time to read all input, but I find it somewhat disturbing what FIBS is turning into! I've been wanting to give my opinion for some time, now is the time!

I've been on FIBS a long, long time seems to me, on and off since 1997, and the first years, I didn't even pay any attention to shouts, but what I always liked was that it appeared to be a forum full of funny wacked out people with interest in a solid game, some letting out a voice perhaps that is never heard in real life. This is the beauty and the beast on FIBS.

It seems that most are interested in keeping track of disputes and I think putting it on record is a pretentious and utterly misunderstood procedure, I cannot see any reason for it, other than players keeping track of petty arguments that more than often take a whole new direction as others will interfere and ridicule the dispute, try to calm people down and help resolve their issues, which are mostly and should remain game related, I for one I really enjoy that part! Let's face it, players with personal issues stuck their nose too far in and should accept that not everyone share their opinions or are even interested in them! This is hard to handle!?

Keeping track of players shouts is outrageous, for what other reason than persecuting players later, seeking retribution or even worse; public persecution, and may I remind all here of the 'ruby' incident!?? If players cannot remember beginning, the middle or the end of a dispute? (real?), which some have claimed the redeeming feature of this whole idea, then it was probably not important to begin with? And someone needing substantiating proof of this or that in a space like FIBS, should not engage in a cybering in the first place, but stick with paper and pen, take notes and go see a professional!

I'm saddened that 'hacker' ideas are working their way into FIBS as well, I don't like the tendencies, it's sick in general and I do not want any part of it, and in my humble opinion, cyberworld is going bananas with 'greed' and piracy (really disturbed individuals!) and privacy is sacrificed to ideas with 'honest intentions'; but are these 'well meaning' individuals really so clever and will they remain in control of their material and 'good' senses. I know my webmaterial is just 'floating' around out there in a 'safe' place!

Worst of it all is the trap, being increasingly used to gadgets it all seems harmless, where can the harm be in something so easy? WAKE UP PEOPLE!

It is still tracking real people, records! We can argue that a player will use a pseudonym, but that is no longer secure, all players are tagged from place of entry, isn't that enough? Not much to consider in my book!! And it's not like I see a conspiracy out there, but I am worried for the human race and down to earth interests which seem at risk, and that the core of FIBS is being eaten away by intellectualizing something that really isn't there! It's a game space, but with written statements etc. can become a very real thing, given the opportunity, good but more probably bad, and privacy should and MUST remain the choice of any individual venturing into FIBS.  Let's remember the original idea of the internet, intellectual rebellion! Free thinking and information and possibilities on a global scale and beyond! This has been compromized by some people governed by greed for control! And they increase by the day. Now we'll let them into FIBS, if they're not there allready.. Greedy bugs!

If I sound paranoid, I'm not, rest assured. I can stand up to my sh*t in shout and in game and in life! If someone is offended by me, I'm sorry, and if someone on FIBS??! takes a leak on my boots I can live with it. I asked for it! I know how I'm interested in FIBS, all harmless pranks really. Agreed, some players have worse language than others, so what? It's hilarious! If some players can't hack it they should find another forum more suitable, there's lots out there, I suggest POGO. FIBS has a unique soul that should not be tampered with and the reason we keep coming back! It's should not be in control other than in fair play (I dislike the sometimes too convenient dice rolls of my opponent?).

I DO like the idea of player progress and other GAME related gimmicks, but this should also be a I suppose private thing, a feature that apparently only comes with JAVAfibs, I think is a lousy client btw, nevertheless a feature I imagine would be greatly welcomed by most. But I imagine even that could be abused somehow!

As for the rest, written abuse etc., all FIBSclients come with gag and blind features, friend and fiend, which I never use, except on e.g. the rare rubys and the whining bots, cause they're just lame space. As for the rest, I handle it or I stay out! People flamed, which rarely happens anymore anyway, often get in the way and that's their lesson. Stand up or stay low!

And may I say since the Fibsboard has come up, increasingly there is criticism, more than praise anyway, and some ridiculous vendettas and petty behaviour from quite a number of people out there. I miss some that are now gone! Gang mentality, in any form, holy or unholy, is disappointing and totally missing the point! It's poison! Let players make their own records fo shouts if they will, maybe in the course of doing so, they might wake up and smell the roses!

'A real world is close by'!

What does Pat think about this invasion of 'brilliant' ideas, I wonder?

Offline inim

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« Reply #49 on: May 31, 2005, 05:12:24 PM »
Code: [Select]
message Patti please ban the two bots "bigbrother" and "watchdog" coming in from 24.197.24.79. See http://www.fibsboard.com/index.php?showtopic=948 for why.

Message to Patti was saved.
« Last Edit: May 31, 2005, 05:12:50 PM by inim »
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Offline gammboy

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« Reply #50 on: May 31, 2005, 05:43:58 PM »
Quote
message Patti please ban the two bots "bigbrother" and "watchdog" coming in from 24.197.24.79. See http://www.fibsboard.com/index.php?showtopic=948 for why.

Message to Patti was saved.

So, there we have it.  Patti will cast the deciding vote (as it should be).

GB

Offline socksey

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« Reply #51 on: May 31, 2005, 06:11:14 PM »
Quote
However, your observation that publishing of the shout archive may scare away potential new players is reasonable and compelling. (Though, in lieu of the shout archive, the actual shouts would likely scare them away anyway.)

I have seen this happen already without an archive.  I cannot see that an archive would/should make any detrimental difference.   :huh:


Quote
WHAT YOU ARE GOING TO COME BACK TO ME WITH VIC YOU SAID SUCH AND SUCH ON 2PT TOURNEYS ON THIS DATE , AND YOU SAID THIS TO KARI ON THIS

We don't need to do that.  You already do that for us.   :lol:

Quote
and privacy should and MUST remain the choice of any individual venturing into FIBS

As you also said, shouting is the choice of the Fibs user.  No one need shout and no one need listen.

As a side note, this seems to be the most popular poll to date.   :P   Seems a lot have an opinion or do you think they are scared?  Maybe they don't want to see the evidence!  :rolleyes:

socksey



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« Last Edit: October 06, 2009, 02:31:10 PM by socksey »

Offline lewscannon

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« Reply #52 on: May 31, 2005, 06:52:46 PM »
Quote
For instance, it would be nice to know what my matches with lewscannon have been like over the last ten years.
These matches have resulted in my picking up lots of points and being able to shout: 'Ha Ha. I beat you Mookie, just like I said I would'.

Offline tapio

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« Reply #53 on: May 31, 2005, 08:21:48 PM »
Hah.
 
What i see is that those who do shout idioms or something like that (what is that then?) won't like to see themselves behave silly or bad and be recorded. What a nightmare.

Just act cool and shout funny things as most  fibsters do. Then you won't have to be afraid of anything.You can even sleep good.

I really don't care if anybody records my shouts, they are there all open.




 

Offline Mookie

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« Reply #54 on: June 01, 2005, 01:24:42 AM »
Quote
Quote
These matches have resulted in my picking up lots of points and being able to shout: 'Ha Ha. I beat you Mookie, just like I said I would'.
LOL. Lewcannon made fun of me in a way that I predicted.  I knew that he would.  LOL

mookie!
 

Offline don

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« Reply #55 on: June 01, 2005, 09:32:43 AM »
This is a pretty silly conversation.  Let's consider reality:
  • FIBS' shouts have been quoted in many forums over the years;
  • What you shout in public might just be quoted by the public;
  • Many people deny what they've shouted, revise their memories of what they've shouted, and don't like to be reminded of what they've shouted;
  • If someone wants to create an accessable archive of FIBS' shouts, there's no practical way to stop it from happening.
On the other hand:
  • There may be some European legal issue that says it's bad to quote someone's words;
  • Perhaps not, and it's certainly OK in the US;
  • Even if there exists some level of tort responsibility to an individual for quoting public information, there is no risk to FIBS since FIBS is not an active participant in the tort.
FIBS is anarchy.  If an individual wants to quote and archive that anarchy, that person is taking the task on alone and bears all legal responsibility.  I just witnessed a shout-session on FIBS in which the question was asked, "will tells and whispers be reported next?"  Well duh!  Any communication between individual entities on FIBS is electronic and may be recorded, but this has nothing to do with the well defined operations of FIBS.  Access to all 'tell's and 'whisper's is not available.  But there's nothing to stop an individual from quoting and archiving that individual's personal 'tell's and 'whisper's with all other FIBS UIDs.

The question of to archive or not to archive is moot, since it can't be stopped.  The only reasonable question to ask is if the archiver is presenting unedited and honest logs.
 
So many string dimensions, so little space time...

Offline lewscannon

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« Reply #56 on: June 01, 2005, 01:40:21 PM »
Quote
%´%?%¯?ELL YOU ONCE AGAIN 99% OF SHOUTS ARE BULLSXXT AND BELONG IN THE TOILET NOT IN FIBSBOARD,
It looks like Vic just watched the whole 17-1 game between the Red Sox and Yankees

Offline inim

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« Reply #57 on: June 01, 2005, 02:27:29 PM »
WH4t @ 51CK WorLD 1N wH1cH +H3 0nLY w4y +0 pR0+3ct j00R PR1V4CY iS T0 B3H4Ve L1kE @ ScrIPt kIddIE.

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« Last Edit: June 01, 2005, 02:29:42 PM by inim »
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Offline adamosad

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« Reply #58 on: June 01, 2005, 03:08:39 PM »
fUNNy prO9R4m but It eXPL@1NS w3LL j00R 4PPR04Ch !!!

Offline gammboy

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« Reply #59 on: June 01, 2005, 07:08:50 PM »
The purpose of this poll was to gauge whether the fibs community would like to have a daily shout log posted on Fibsboard.  Based on the discussion (not the poll results, that were poisoned) , I have decided not to post a daily shout log anywhere, fibsboard or elsewhere.

The factors that come into play are these:

 1)  A daily shout log would be indexed by search engines (robot.txt is supposed to control that, but is unreliable)  There is no benefit to this, and may serve to harm Fibs users.  
 2)  The possibility that someone may shout personally identifiable information, like "gammboy's debit card number is..." or "inim's phone number is..."
 3)  vegas_vic frightens me.  
 
Other than daily human moderation, #2 above cannot be resolved.   And so, a posted daily shout log will not happen.

The main question I hear is "What are you going to do with this data?".  

The current idea is to set up a web site that will have constantly updated, historical data and statistics.  For instance a "Who's hot, who's not" display showing weekly climbs and slides in ratings... that sort of thing.    Also you will be able to tell the bot to create a secure account for you on this website to access a personal page where you can see , real time, your data, ratings history, match history, charts, graphs, etc.  And to do research into that data.

Another use is so that other bots (repbot for instance) can have access to relevant information.  So if a future version of repbot were to take into account whether a complainer ever played a match with the complainee, for instance.

All the "...end of Fibs as we know it" crowd have it all wrong.  I envision this as an enhancement to Fibs.  Not some dark conspiracy to send everyone to jail.  I probaby should have spent my time writing a gnu cheat-bot instead.  At least then I could be in the 1700s and would have vegas_vic's respect.   :P

GB

Offline diane

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« Reply #60 on: June 01, 2005, 07:44:08 PM »
I am so glad to read that I cant begin to say  :D  :D

The data that will be available, will be both useful and interesting - and indeed an enhancement to FIBS - I cant wait to be able to mine that.

As for the respect of you-know-who - whyever would ya want that ??  :P  
Never give up on the things that make you smile

Offline socksey

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« Reply #61 on: June 01, 2005, 08:20:43 PM »
Gammboy, for the sanity of inim, diane, and vegas_vic, I am happy for your decision.  Oh, well, another day!   :P

Cheers...............socksey



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« Last Edit: June 01, 2005, 08:21:51 PM by socksey »

Offline diane

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« Reply #62 on: June 01, 2005, 08:22:36 PM »
Werent there 15 other people who didnt want this - or have we another corrupt poll??

If so - cant you do something about that?

And my sanity was never at risk  ;)  
Never give up on the things that make you smile

Offline Chris

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« Reply #63 on: June 01, 2005, 08:52:09 PM »
<- also voted against a spy bot

Offline socksey

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« Reply #64 on: June 01, 2005, 09:02:14 PM »
Webbie is the only one who would know if the poll is corrupt and the person/s corrupting, if there is such person/s, and the only one who can do anything about it.  I know webrunner worked VERY hard to prevent that happening again, but as inim points out...........there are some very strong programs out there.  I suppose we can expect anything to be done at any time, published shout log or not.  

Am I becoming paranoid, now?   :o

My reference to the sanity of inim, vic, and you was merely a figure of speech, diane, meant for humor value only.   :lol:

socksey



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Offline inim

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« Reply #65 on: June 01, 2005, 10:17:33 PM »
Quote
there are some very strong programs out there.  I suppose we can expect anything to be done at any time, published shout log or not.
This is the complete list of adresses which may, at the time of this writing, be endpoints of the TOR network for access to www.fibsboard.com:80. Votes coming from one of those should be discarded.

[size=8]
68.18.58.151, 69.138.221.249, 207.241.238.198, 66.11.179.38, 213.114.188.29, 63.246.136.50, 207.210.65.140, 67.175.169.169, 24.213.79.123, 12.210.225, 128.173.41.2, 24.73.99.21, 70.81.197.111, 63.227.241.113, 194.95.224.201, 212.50.17.182, 62.15.113.18, 62.94.221.163, 69.90.33.237, 82.226.84.53, 217.172.182.163, 203.59.113.89, 193.219.28.149, 69.144.179.212, 194.145.249.14, 207.126.122.125, 69.60.123.22, 83.103.178.136, 211.99.194.53, 80.190.250.83, 69.142.153.110, 207.180.130.205, 194.126.98.14, 82.50.55.105, 71.240.170.221, 193.247.38.248, 66.31.78.27, 64.115.210.23, 209.221.193.39, 64.246.50.101, 60.36.181.86, 198.176.193.1, 69.110.14.80, 80.190.250.139, 81.57.158.21, 213.114.73.139, 71.12.178.144, 69.17.54.32, 209.142.37.21, 66.92.29.102, 168.150.251.36, 155.207.113.227, 67.41.29.28, 129.187.150.86, 69.20.9.201, 66.180.170.52, 217.93.147.149, 85.89.40.10, 66.32.255.105, 217.123.137.115, 217.160.248.142, 64.230.61.210, 83.133.126.131, 81.169.170.160, 206.51.237.44, 213.84.37.15, 65.100.132.91, 82.181.51.66, 208.214.18.142, 199.77.131.145, 68.98.18.98, 82.131.50.146, 216.120.134.217, 69.12.134.80, 212.112.235.78, 66.127.243.22, 209.172.34.176, 80.237.206.93, 64.229.184.12, 212.71.131.229, 71.107.153.144, 213.139.167.121, 82.66.230.172, 24.3.149.174, 212.202.49.153, 65.93.150.251, 218.250.58.200, 82.100.24.235, 72.21.50.114, 81.169.156.174, 207.241.238.198, 216.137.65.86, 131.175.189.222, 24.255.13.82, 221.254.203.118, 82.165.190.95, 83.65.189.126, 62.241.240.82, 38.117.144.218, 82.53.234.251, 128.30.28.19, 83.249.64.52, 217.160.110.113, 4.13.97.0, 24.207.210.2, 72.9.242.90, 69.10.152.209, 24.21.120.245, 209.204.139.69, 67.80.200.208, 136.145.54.123, 24.73.99.22, 68.106.120.181, 160.79.94.171, 69.37.255.30, 69.41.174.196, 216.161.59.50, 217.133.1.228, 65.125.233.212, 66.213.144.58, 195.245.255.11, 201.17.95.110, 212.202.10.56, 24.164.242.124, 216.239.86.12, 62.121.31.116, 70.81.104.169, 80.190.251.24, 4.13.202.112, 209.237.225.244, 65.196.226.32, 69.59.168.196, 128.39.141.245, 66.162.30.226, 62.131.8.120, 209.192.21.154, 84.29.161.16, 24.123.148.67, 216.24.56.189, 66.92.76.38, 67.171.34.29, 216.152.71.153, 208.185.251.121, 204.89.193.10, 69.57.130.8, 67.71.82.137, 66.230.143.179, 69.240.206.170, 166.93.96.15, 84.230.221.234, 66.119.199.39, 213.115.117.150, 64.95.182.163, 84.191.121.43, 24.20.70.130, 65.189.111.161[/size]
« Last Edit: June 01, 2005, 10:41:28 PM by inim »
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Offline gammboy

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« Reply #66 on: June 01, 2005, 11:01:25 PM »
As a side note, I have ended logging shouts to save DB space.  I am logging all raw data during development, but that will end too as soon as I get the DB nailed down.

GB

Offline diane

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« Reply #67 on: June 01, 2005, 11:04:10 PM »
Quote
My reference to the sanity of inim, vic, and you was merely a figure of speech, diane, meant for humor value only.
That is my idea of funny too - guess not everyone gets it - but for a clue - if I post this  ;) , I am joking  :D  
Never give up on the things that make you smile

Offline gammboy

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« Reply #68 on: June 02, 2005, 12:39:33 AM »
Quote
Werent there 15 other people who didnt want this - or have we another corrupt poll??

I don't know if this poll is corrupt.  I do know that Inim launched a FUD campaign on Fibs posting the link to the poll and scaring the hell out of people for no good reason.  Thats why I said the poll was poisoned.

What is important is that some fibsters posted real, reasonable, valid concerns.  I asked if people wanted a shout log, and the answer came back clearly, "no".  Inim's opinion played into that, but his threats and FUD campaign didn't.

If the poll had been 55 for and 1 against, and the 1 against said "What if someone posts my phone number?"  The decision would have been the same.  That is an insurmountable problem, a show stopper.

Some folks here feel that I need their permission to do what I want to do.  I need only Patti's.  For now, I have it.  What I want is more constructive input from fibsters on how to make this a really good, useful, entertaining, fun project; an enhancement to the fibs experience.

GB

Offline Carolina_Blue

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« Reply #69 on: June 02, 2005, 03:08:27 AM »
I am oppossed!  My dear friend Anakin makes extremely rude, vulgar,  sexist, homophobic,  jingoist, etc. shouts.   Someone reading these remarks would think my dear friend Anakin was off his medication.  To archive shouts, could cause new members to have a clear grasp of what a slimeball Anakin is.

I want them to learn that on their own.  :cool:
« Last Edit: June 02, 2005, 03:10:10 AM by Carolina_Blue »

Offline Mookie

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« Reply #70 on: June 02, 2005, 04:10:07 AM »
Quote
I am oppossed!  My dear friend Anakin makes extremely rude, vulgar,  sexist, homophobic,  jingoist, etc. shouts.   Someone reading these remarks would think my dear friend Anakin was off his medication.  To archive shouts, could cause new members to have a clear grasp of what a slimeball Anakin is.

I want them to learn that on their own.  :cool:
That is the first and only "NO" response that makes a lick of sense to me.  Well done, Blue.

mookie


p.s. GAMM, thanks for your consideration and thoughtfulness of all the wrongheaded reasons.  :)
 

Offline webrunner

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« Reply #71 on: June 02, 2005, 09:04:38 AM »
I just researched the poll results and i can tell you that it is very unlikely that they have been tampered with..
Every vote was made from a different IP address and there are almost no new members that have voted.



 
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Offline inim

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« Reply #72 on: June 02, 2005, 08:30:20 PM »
What is Fibs? Is it a server? And who owns Fibs? Is it Patti, Andreas and Kit, the team we owe so much?
 
No. Fibs first of all is a lively community breathing new life into a battered piece of software each day. It is a unique place, ancient for the standards of the fast paced Internet it spearheaded 13 years ago.

There are a number of bots running 24/7 here, technically able to record and "spy". There's monitor, repbot, tourneybot and the mgnu gang. What makes watchdog and bigbrother so different? Why did I oppose them while never even thinking of "FUD campaining" against the others?

It's not the bots, it's their master. Certainly Gammboy is full of good intentions, but he sees Fibs as a technical thing, a stream of bits and bytes -- mere food for a data miner. Doing so he misses the very soul of fibs. It's all about the people, and it's all about trust.  Trust is earned, not grabbed. It is based on mutual respect. It is based on personal interaction, on thousands of STFUs and "hi, gl"s.

I did not feel much respect for the community in Gammboy's recent behaviour. In the last days of intense debate he did not bother to enter the very shout he wanted to publish. He rather was hiding behind his toys. The only thing visible were his postings, heralding a lonesome decision once in a while. He thinks of Fibs as an anonymous game server, just like the hundreds that popped up like mushrooms recently. It ain't. Fibs may be an old rag doll, but I won't trade it for the brand new Backgammon-O-Matic 2100.

Nevertheless, the worst excess was turned down and shouts won't be fed to google. I would be lying if I said I'm happy now the issue was "won". I'm still sceptical. But let's be positive, Gammboy probably is good at heart and his proposed service will find a place among the other bots, contributing to Fibs. He may even learn what is beyond and behind CLIP while programming parsers for it.

Gammboy was given a chanche, by Patti herself. Alea jacta est, it may turn out to be a double six.

inim
« Last Edit: June 02, 2005, 09:06:14 PM by inim »
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Offline gammboy

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« Reply #73 on: June 02, 2005, 09:49:31 PM »
You don't understand, Inim.  Over the years, I have been an occaisional player and contributor to the fibs community, engaging in shouts and making a few friends, and no enemies (that I'm aware of) along the way.  I had (at last check) no complaints with repbot, and have never dropped a game, ever, even with the bots.  I do not cheat to jack my rating (like some we both know), nor do I ever complain (or vouch) to repbot about anyone with whom I have not personally played.

My intention all along has been to give some of my time and talents back to Fibs, (since it's obvious my talent is not playing backgammon ;).  Thats what this is all about.  Thats why I started this thread, to get feedback from the PEOPLE of Fibs.  Its *ALL* about the community, the people.  I never said (or meant to say) that I intended to post a shout log anywhere, as you have asserted that I did.  I ASKED if fibsters WANTED me to.  There's a huge difference there.   I had hoped this would be an interactive project, where fibsters have a say in the final product.  And it was all going along fine, with people for both sides contributing constructivly to the thread, until you launched your FUD.
 
So, you have launched this FUD campaign against me, personally and my work.  Work that is designed and intended to BENEFIT the PEOPLE of Fibs.  I have endured threats, name calling, ping floods, tell floods, port scans, and various DoS attempts from you or the people you have unnecessarily enflamed.  All because I wanted to spend my time, effort and money doing something good for them.  Something you completely misunderstood.

I respect your opinions and defend your right to make them known.  I am a resonable, respectable, stand-up guy, and I will listen to any reasonable argument.  Those people of fibs who know me, know that to be true.  You are trying (and succeeding) in making me out to be something evil to those who don't know better.  That is the injustice here.  A few days back, as you demo'd your bot, ElectricVic, for me, you asked me if I was on the dark side.  You should ask yourself the same question.  And while you are asking, ask yourself who has done the Fibs community the greater disservice here?

GB

Offline inim

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« Reply #74 on: June 03, 2005, 03:33:40 PM »
Rather than demonizing me as a person, raising inidirect accusations too ridiculous to even deny, look at what happened. You lost a democratic poll by a large margin. Personally I see the reason in your disrespectful behaviour (e.g. "LOL - Inim, you kill me.", "'anonymization' You're kidding, right."' etc.).  The last speech of one of the late east german leaders became a proverb here in Germany: "How can you do this [the revolution], I love you all!". Don't fall that trap and stop whining.

Let's go back to technical discussion such as verifiable measures to protect privacy.

inim

P.S. I am sorry you are subject to cyber attacks. If any of the attackers listens: please stop it, you are harming fibs.
« Last Edit: June 03, 2005, 03:51:57 PM by inim »
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Offline Mookie

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« Reply #75 on: June 03, 2005, 04:12:37 PM »
Quote
look at what happened. You lost a democratic poll by a large margin.
Inim,

While I agree that there should be no personal attacks, let's remember that GAMM didn't "win" or "lose" a poll.  He held this informal, nonscientific poll to get a sense of what people wanted.  By doing so, if the poll accurately reflects people's sentiments, everyone WINS, including GAMM.  The poll was supposed to serve the point of research.  He didn't hold the poll because he wanted to get permission but to find out what people wanted, and that's VERY different and a VERY nice move on GAMM's part.

MOOKIE, who would like GAMM to create a bot who would vouch for him

 

Offline socksey

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« Reply #76 on: June 03, 2005, 05:15:05 PM »
Well said by the Mookster!  :wub:

I was going to add more, but thought better of it.  No published archives, end of story.

But, wait!  
Quote
This is the complete list of adresses which may, at the time of this writing, be endpoints of the TOR network for access to www.fibsboard.com:80. Votes coming from one of those should be discarded.
 Does this mean the poll may still be corrupt?   :lol:  
 

socksey



"I was nauseous and tingly all over…I was either in love or I had smallpox." - Woody Allen
« Last Edit: June 03, 2005, 05:18:11 PM by socksey »

Offline gammboy

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« Reply #77 on: June 06, 2005, 07:26:23 PM »
Quote
Let's go back to technical discussion such as verifiable measures to protect privacy.

Ya know what, Inim.  I'm done with you.  I'm eager to hear what you have to say on the subject of security or any other relevant topic, but your threats, demands, and temper tantrums will be ignored.  

GB

(This post copyrighted ©2005 by gammboy.  All rights reserved)
« Last Edit: June 06, 2005, 07:42:30 PM by gammboy »

Offline Zorba

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« Reply #78 on: June 10, 2005, 10:01:33 PM »
You should all go read SirLuzalot's post again! :agree:

What's next, running memorecorders everytime you go to your local pub and confronting your friends and enemies with all they've said,  the day after?  :ph34r:

Forgetting and fading away can be very valuable I'd say. Besides, who gives a hoot about "old" shouts... :wacko:

The rest of gammboy's project sounds very interesting though. I hope you'll put your efforts into that  :)
The fascist's feelings of insecurity run so deep that he desperately needs a classification of some things as successful or superior and other things as failed or inferior. This also underlies the fascist's embracement of concepts like mental illness and IQ tests.  - R.J.V.

Luck is my main skill

Offline kid_pantyhose

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« Reply #79 on: July 28, 2005, 03:59:11 PM »
watchdog can suck my febrile bone--i dont want to have this stuff waved around later--its so "nyah nyah nyah"--dirty, smelly laundry--let sleeping dogs lie--i am a freedom seeker and so i will close by dropping my hose, mooning the watchdog, tossing it a nice, juicy, dbl-edged razor-stuffed steak, giving a final wiggle, a smile, and the finger...

Offline gammboy

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« Reply #80 on: July 29, 2005, 02:02:52 AM »
Quote
watchdog can suck my febrile bone--i dont want to have this stuff waved around later--its so "nyah nyah nyah"--dirty, smelly laundry--let sleeping dogs lie--i am a freedom seeker and so i will close by dropping my hose, mooning the watchdog, tossing it a nice, juicy, dbl-edged razor-stuffed steak, giving a final wiggle, a smile, and the finger...

LOL - well said.  I think you have crystalized the thoughts of the majority of fibsters eloquently.  That is why I am not collecting shouts anymore.  Its pointless, and the FIBS community didn't want it.

GB

Offline socksey

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« Reply #81 on: December 29, 2005, 06:38:01 PM »
I take full responsibility for anything I may say anywhere.   ;)

Was going to make another post about the positivity of using the archive, but found I already did that.   :lol:

Let me repeat, tho, that back when we were able to access the shouts archives, I did enjoy it immensely!  Bring it on! :wub:   I used it as a memory aid, or when I had been multitasking and had missed something, or any number of other reasons.........like, occasionally, a fibster utters greatness.   :rolleyes:

   

socksey



The weak can never forgive. Forgiveness is the attribute of the strong. -- Mahatma Gandhi Indian ascetic & nationalist leader (1869 - 1948)
« Last Edit: January 06, 2006, 11:33:34 PM by socksey »

Offline adrian

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« Reply #82 on: January 06, 2006, 08:47:12 PM »
Perusing RGB, brings me a feeling of loss. Those were funny times.
Helping people is tricky. Give help to anyone and he will remember it only when he is in need again.

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