Author Topic: Current Plans For Repbot (Read 19205 times)

avik · « **on:** March 03, 2006, 03:41:56 PM »

I've had a little chat with Patti, and I've come up with the following plan, which will hopefully reduce the burden repbot places on her while remaining functional at identifying droppers:

1. Add the 'saved' command, as in 'tell repbot saved <player>', which tells you the number of saved games a player has, without the reputation metric.

2. Add a reminder to people that use repbot not to bother Patti about it. The reminder will arrive with higher frequency for people who are new to repbot and with lower frequency to veterans; of course, repbot will not bother people who don't talk to it.

3. Switch 'ask' and 'list' to only consider opinions from people you have vouched for - basically the 'friends' formula. This will make creation off nicks for the purpose of reputation bombing pointless.

4. If needed, only allow registering an opinion after a match has been played. This should prevent ganging up on people. I'll only take this step if absolutely necessary since it means dumping the current database, which will probably induce heart attacks in a few people.

Step 1 has already been implemented; I'll start with the others once I return from my snowboarding vacation next Sunday.

If you have any suggestions, please post them here, but be aware that I'm offline for next week.

FIBS Board backgammon forum · « **on:** March 03, 2006, 03:41:56 PM »

diane · « **Reply #1 on:** March 03, 2006, 03:50:12 PM »

That is excellent news - thanks for doing that avik - lets hope this sorts out the issues

webrunner · « **Reply #2 on:** March 03, 2006, 07:07:13 PM »

Great work Avik!

If you need any help or resources here let me know.

adamosad · « **Reply #3 on:** March 03, 2006, 08:43:46 PM »

FIBS Board backgammon forum · « **Reply #3 on:** March 03, 2006, 08:43:46 PM »

mrbond · « **Reply #4 on:** March 04, 2006, 01:42:28 AM »

In the best tradition of the Oscar Awards speeches, I would also like to thank a few people ......

I like to thank both avik and burper for their tireless efforts in this project. It has been a long journey and we have not yet reached our destination, but we are on the right tracks and there's light at the end of the tunnel!

I would also pass my gratitude to Patti. She too has shown dedication to the cause inspite of unwarrented and unneccessary distraction.

Thank you also to the many others who have contributed with suggestions! Please keep them coming!

Keep up the good work!

Right, I better get ready for the Oscar ceremony. Adios

Mookie · « **Reply #5 on:** March 04, 2006, 05:28:28 AM »

I'm thrilled. I'm ecstatic. I'm not Shuggie. I'm Mookie.

Anyway, thanks to PATTI, Avik, and, of course, Burper. What an elegant solution to this issue.

An additional comment: As much as the discussion about repbot was something of a pain, I really do think the portions on fibsboard and the carryover conversation on FIBS itself was once again an illustration of the "agon," of spirited debate, at its best. Outside of lewscannon's inane suggestions that repbot needs to wear cuter outfits, the conversation was tactful, thoughtful and, quite frankly, useful.

MOOKIE

dorbel · « **Reply #6 on:** March 04, 2006, 04:07:06 PM »

What would be wrong with dumping the entire RepBot database and starting again? In my opinion this would be a good idea anyway, in fact fibs ratings could also do with resetting to 1500 as well, thus discouraging those who live only to enhance their rating at all costs, curiously often the same customers who abuse RepBot!

dorbel · « **Reply #7 on:** March 04, 2006, 04:08:08 PM »

FIBS Board backgammon forum · « **Reply #7 on:** March 04, 2006, 04:08:08 PM »

socksey · « **Reply #8 on:** March 04, 2006, 09:55:44 PM »

You have such a nice smile, dorbel, I'm going to leave it there.

And, btw, bite your tongue for this

Quote

What would be wrong with dumping the entire RepBot database and starting again?

!

Thanks ever so (in my best Marilyn impersonation) to burper for originating and continuing ideas, Patti for her patience during the whole thing, and to avik for continuing to carry the ball! You guys (and girl) are the greatest!

socksey

"All truth passes through three stages. First, it is ridiculed. Second, it is violently opposed. Third, it is accepted as being self-evident." - Arthur Schopenhauer

adrian · « **Reply #9 on:** March 04, 2006, 10:02:30 PM »

Touche Dorbel! Why not, Patti? ^_^ . Some will cry, some will curse, some will leave, but the gang will survive.

@Avik: number 4) will be a welcome adition. Do we need a poll on this one?

donzaemon · « **Reply #10 on:** March 05, 2006, 10:49:52 AM »

Dumping the current repbot database would be a GREAT idea,
1. Those with 'harmony' and 'balance' will quickly get their rep back
2. Those who have abused it will have a much harder time bringing back the abuse

There can be absolutely nothing bad about dumping it, it will only come back in a better and more realistic form.
Those who oppose this are likely the ones who use artificial techniques to either boost their own rep or to slam others' reps. I'm sure that no fibsters of an open and honest disposition concerning repbot would oppose this action.

With the current changes you have outlined above, there is even MORE reason a complete dump would be beneficial for fibs, and keep in mind , the dump would NOT affect the saved games status, only the vouch / complaint feature which will be rebuild significantly quickly and in a more honest and realistic manner. (but I certainly can see how the artificial boosters and cheaters would cringe at this idea , which is another good reason to do it)

diane · « **Reply #11 on:** March 05, 2006, 11:16:48 AM »

Sounds like a good idea to me too - I am not worried

FIBS Board backgammon forum · « **Reply #11 on:** March 05, 2006, 11:16:48 AM »

burper · « **Reply #12 on:** March 05, 2006, 04:31:14 PM »

Quote

3. Switch 'ask' and 'list' to only consider opinions from people you have vouched for - basically the 'friends' formula. This will make creation off nicks for the purpose of reputation bombing pointless.

Question: what is the exact change to the list command here?
One decides to vouch for someone based on two things:
1) they would make an enjoyable opponent (will finish, will be nice etc...)
2) their opinions make sense to factor into my view of the data

E.g. I would normally vouch for maria for reason 1, but won't because of reason 2, i.e. I do not want her vouches for droppers to skew my view.

So will I still be able to view marias' list in order to make an evaluation of her opinions?

burper · « **Reply #13 on:** March 05, 2006, 05:02:58 PM »

I would advise against resetting the database:
1) There is no reason for it, since the effects of any abuse will disappear the moment Avi "throws the big switch". If anyone can provide an example of how this might not be entirely true, please do so.
2) The friends command will not get off the ground without data to work with.

While it is true that the reasons to vouch/complain have changed slightly,
I don't think your view will be very inaccurate to begin with if you have
used repbot with good intentions in the past.

If you don't use repbot with good intentions, it doesn't matter anyway.

People should still review their lists and make whatever changes they feel like.
It will be less work for those that have used the bot well in the past, and
more of a penalty for those who have not

Bulk commands would help, i.e. if complain/vouch/withdraw took multiple names, and a
"reset {complaints,vouches} command existed. Those people who wanted to
start their lists fresh could do so.

burper · « **Reply #14 on:** March 05, 2006, 05:08:09 PM »

Does anyone know who the mysterious user with no name that appears on the top of the savedgames (http://fibs.com/savedgames/list.html) list is?

adrian · « **Reply #15 on:** March 05, 2006, 09:20:50 PM »

That list is not accurate. Speaking only about myself, I finished most of the matches shown (not with the adrian nickname!

) and more important, in one session, without any breaks (not saved and then resumed). Something is wrong in that list dated 5-mar-2006, 21:18 UTC.

And you are right again in the previous post about the db flush, but I want to start fresh because a lot of payers I vouched or vouched for me doesn`t exist on fibs anymore. A reset command would be nice. (or maybe another avenue for abuse)

FIBS Board backgammon forum · « **Reply #15 on:** March 05, 2006, 09:20:50 PM »

Hardy_whv · « **Reply #16 on:** March 05, 2006, 09:50:17 PM »

Quote

4. If needed, only allow registering an opinion after a match has been played. This should prevent ganging up on people. I'll only take this step if absolutely necessary since it means dumping the current database, which will probably induce heart attacks in a few people.

Well, I usually wait with a complaint a few days to give the opponent a chance to resume. With the feature described above, I would be forced to complain immediately?! Or did I get that wrong?

Hardy

burper · « **Reply #17 on:** March 05, 2006, 10:33:19 PM »

Quote

That list is not accurate. Speaking only about myself, I finished most of the matches shown (not with the adrian nickname! ) and more important, in one session, without any breaks (not saved and then resumed). Something is wrong in that list dated 5-mar-2006, 21:18 UTC.

And you are right again in the previous post about the db flush, but I want to start fresh because a lot of payers I vouched or vouched for me doesn`t exist on fibs anymore. A reset command would be nice. (or maybe another avenue for abuse)

The inaccuracies of that list have been discussed before and I think are pretty well understood.

Users who get deleted from fibs automatically get deleted from the repbot db too, so that should not be a concern.

diane · « **Reply #18 on:** March 05, 2006, 10:33:32 PM »

If that is the way it works - I guess the answer will be to complain and then remove it if the match is finished later. You couls also message the player with this info - to try to avoid any bad feeling arising due to genuine disconnection situations.

burper · « **Reply #19 on:** March 05, 2006, 10:37:07 PM »

Quote

Quote
4. If needed, only allow registering an opinion after a match has been played. This should prevent ganging up on people. I'll only take this step if absolutely necessary since it means dumping the current database, which will probably induce heart attacks in a few people.
Well, I usually wait with a complaint a few days to give the opponent a chance to resume. With the feature described above, I would be forced to complain immediately?! Or did I get that wrong?

Hardy

Not true Hardy. The saved game lasts for N days. I forget what N is, but its' greater than 30 I think. Anyone remember?

Hardy_whv · « **Reply #20 on:** March 05, 2006, 10:54:07 PM »

Quote

Not true Hardy. The saved game lasts for N days. I forget what N is, but its' greater than 30 I think. Anyone remember?

Well, whats "after a match has been played"?

If the meaning is, "there is a saved game in the saved games list", than we should write down the rule this way.

But: What, if the match has been played until completion, but your opponent was rude? Or, you completed a match, have been kind, and still got a complaint?

I have a complaint from fesal. We played once, I can't even remember, who won. But for sure, I was friendly as usual. And I got a complaint. He cant even explain, why he complains, because he does not speak english.

I somehow feel the need, to counter-complain for causeless complaints

I still think, RepBot is useful, even the way it is presently implemented.

Hardy

burper · « **Reply #21 on:** March 05, 2006, 11:30:55 PM »

Quote

Quote
Not true Hardy. The saved game lasts for N days. I forget what N is, but its' greater than 30 I think. Anyone remember?
Well, whats "after a match has been played"?

If the meaning is, "there is a saved game in the saved games list", than we should write down the rule this way.

But: What, if the match has been played until completion, but your opponent was rude? Or, you completed a match, have been kind, and still got a complaint?

I have a complaint from fesal. We played once, I can't even remember, who won. But for sure, I was friendly as usual. And I got a complaint. He cant even explain, why he complains, because he does not speak english.

I somehow feel the need, to counter-complain for causeless complaints

I still think, RepBot is useful, even the way it is presently implemented.

Hardy

Well first, he said he would do 4 only if required. I don't believe it will be.

Assuming it is however, RepBot would need to either detect that a match was started by listening to fibs. It would need to maintain a list of matches started for some expiration period. It would only allow complaints if the match between complainer and complainee was on that list.

Now repbot might not be connected at the time your match is played, or it might somehow miss the match report. Either way, you take a lump, but this shouldn't happen very often.

I would assume this would not apply to vouches, but that seems a tad asymmetric

There is still a question with regard to what he meant when he said "played". Is he implying that the match had to NOT have been completed? Not sure.

diane · « **Reply #22 on:** March 06, 2006, 06:10:36 AM »

Quote

I have a complaint from fesal. We played once, I can't even remember, who won. But for sure, I was friendly as usual. And I got a complaint. He cant even explain, why he complains, because he does not speak english.

I wouldnt worry about that - after all fesal complained about himself too....

socksey · « **Reply #23 on:** March 06, 2006, 01:46:28 PM »

Quote

Not true Hardy. The saved game lasts for N days. I forget what N is, but its' greater than 30 I think. Anyone remember?

I seem to remember 90 days, but not automatic. Sometimes varies slightly.

socksey

"We have enough youth, how about a fountain of SMART?" â€“ Anonymous

Patti · « **Reply #24 on:** March 07, 2006, 03:08:09 AM »

I would actually cast a pretty strong vote for dumping the database.

At a philosophical level, a vouch now means something entirely different than it did when you created it-- you're not just saying that they're OK, but you're also saying you trust their opinion about who is OK. The semantic shift suggests to me that a clean database is in order.

If RepBot winds up only accepting vouches/complaints within a relaatively short time of playing a match, then a clean database is mandatory.

moonshadow · « **Reply #25 on:** March 09, 2006, 03:55:38 PM »

Why stop with dumping the rep database?

I say dump all the ratings and everybody starts over with 1500. Should be fun!

It will make all the bottomfeeders and manipulators have to work a lot more to get back to those stratospheric ratings.

Hardy_whv · « **Reply #26 on:** March 09, 2006, 04:01:20 PM »

Quote

A great idea!

Dump the ratings and start over! Why stop at resetting to 1500? Why not reset to 1300 or 1000?

I think there is some misunderstanding. The RepBot database with the reputations will be resetted, the ratings would not be affected. They have nothing to do with RepBot.

Hardy

socksey · « **Reply #27 on:** March 09, 2006, 06:57:14 PM »

Quote

I say dump all the ratings and everybody starts over with 1500. Should be fun!

Novel idea!

That would be FUN! See all the cheaters scrambling to regain ground!

socksey

"When life hands you lemons, ask for a bottle of tequila and salt." â€“ Anonymous

adrian · « **Reply #28 on:** March 10, 2006, 05:57:08 PM »

Hardy:

Quote

I think there is some misunderstanding. The RepBot database with the reputations will be resetted, the ratings would not be affected. They have nothing to do with RepBot.

No misunderstanding Hardy!

Quote

Dorbel :In my opinion this would be a good idea anyway, in fact fibs ratings could also do with resetting to 1500 as well

, and finally :

Quote

myself:Touche Dorbel! Why not, Patti? .

It will be good to reset all ratings? I say yes.

I must add tho: 1500 + 0.1 rating points for every 1000 points experience if rating is above 1500, and 1500 - 0.1 rating points for every 1000 eperience points if actual rating is below 1500. This is fair, in my NOT humble oppinion. ^_^

Hardy_whv · « **Reply #29 on:** March 10, 2006, 07:45:03 PM »

Quote

No misunderstanding Hardy!

I must add tho: 1500 + 0.1 rating points for every 1000 points experience if rating is above 1500, and 1500 - 0.1 rating points for every 1000 eperience points if actual rating is below 1500. This is fair, in my NOT humble oppinion. ^_^

Okay, still it was a misunderstanding .... from my side

Then I don't like the idea of resetting the ratings. Many people work hard - with fair means - for their rating, including:

- studying backgammon books
- analyzing their matches
- avoiding made mistakes in the future
- learning METs
- etc. etc.

Those players who use unfair means to get a high rating will continue to do so in future. The way to avoid those people ist not te reset all players to "zero", but to kick those lousy creatures out of FIBS.

A rating should reflect the strength of a player. Resetting it is like communism. It just doesn't work.

Hardy

BushSucks · « **Reply #30 on:** March 15, 2006, 10:52:31 AM »

Quote

A rating should reflect the strength of a player. Resetting it is like communism. It just doesn't work.

Holy sh**, POLITICS in fibs ?!

If that is holds true, then my play of backgammon is like communism too: it doesn't work either!

Cheers, BushSucks

burper · « **Reply #31 on:** March 30, 2006, 11:47:55 PM »

So we're down to the final hour, literally (at least UTC), and I haven't noticed any changes.
Is it dead yet then? Or will it linger and leave a stench?

Author Topic: Current Plans For Repbot (Read 19205 times)

avik

FIBS Board backgammon forum

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