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Repbot

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Offline Patti

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« on: February 21, 2006, 07:52:15 PM »
OK, I'm really frustrated with RepBot.  It's fundamentally flawed, and I'm sick and tired of having people whine to me about it on a regular basis.

I'm about >< this close to tossing it out on its ear.  Anybody want to try to talk me out of it?  Or even better, volunteer to fix the damned thing sooner rather than later?

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« on: February 21, 2006, 07:52:15 PM »

Offline Mookie

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« Reply #1 on: February 21, 2006, 08:23:26 PM »
Hi Patti,

While I of course always bow to your wisdom on such matters, I, for one, love repbot as one source of information.  Much like "teaching evaluations" cannot tell one everyting about a course or about an instructor, repbot is one very quick avenue I use to learn about an opponent I've never played before.  Basically, I look to see the number of saved games (granted, the info is slightly dated and available elsewhere) and the general feeling of the fibs community (granted, I usually list the names so that I can see if people I trust have vouched or complained).   So, yes, I use it, and yes, I make decisions on who I will play based on it and other information.  It's certainly easier than shouting, "What does everyone know about PLAYER X?" each time I'm invited.

Is it flawed? Yes.  Is it the only source of information? No.  Do we all have complaints and vouches from people we don't know?  Absolutely.  Do you really need to use it if you're on fibs a lot and know the players?  Probably not.  Is it a great shortcut for information?  I think so, and I would hate to see it dissappear.

mookie
 

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« Reply #1 on: February 21, 2006, 08:23:26 PM »

Offline tansley

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« Reply #2 on: February 21, 2006, 09:09:41 PM »
I, too, use and value repbot, despite it's flaws.
It does seem to be the quickest and most convenient way to find the number of saved games a player has - the best way I have discovered of keeping my own saved games number low.

tansley

Offline diane

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« Reply #3 on: February 21, 2006, 09:58:56 PM »
When I joined FIBS I had a very poor connection and my saved games ramped up - without ever having deliberately having dropped a game, I had 30 saved games, and almost enough to take me onto the hall of shame. The one thing that cleared this for  me was repbot 'alert' function.  That allowed me to put things in order and get my saved back to a sensible level.

There are many ways in which repbot is better than the nothing otherwise available on a fast timescale (saved games list etc take time to access - repbot is available directly from many interfaces with almost no delay to playing).

I would love someone to improve repbot - but 'I' cant - and for now - in a system that is intrinsically at risk from those who want to waste our time - repbot is a whole lot better than nothing.

By all means replace repbot - the very minute we have something equivalent or better.....
« Last Edit: February 21, 2006, 10:00:24 PM by diane »
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« Reply #3 on: February 21, 2006, 09:58:56 PM »

Offline adamosad

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« Reply #4 on: February 21, 2006, 10:24:08 PM »
I use to check not only the reputation but the complainers and vouchers too. So if a lot of "good" people (that I know) vouch a player then his positive rep must be unbiased. . .

I believe that the bot gives some important information about our opponents and its existence is essential.

Offline Patti

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« Reply #5 on: February 22, 2006, 12:34:04 AM »
I have a hard time seeing repbot as essential, given that FIBS ran for nearly a decade without it.  I never encounter any problems caused by not having it (and no, it's not just because people know I run the server.)

My problem with repbot is that it's often wrong and it's frequently misused.  Plus, people seem to think it's part of the FIBS service, so I get nagged about it on a regular basis.  My response is always, "It's not an official part of FIBS.  It's fundamentally flawed.  I have nothing to do with it and I won't intervene."  But I get tired of being bugged about it.

Plus, I don't even know who runs it these days, and the (required) contact information in the address field.

At this point, my inclination is to say, "Solve the abuse problems by the end of March, or I'm giving it the boot."
« Last Edit: February 22, 2006, 12:34:52 AM by Patti »

Offline Mookie

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« Reply #6 on: February 22, 2006, 03:02:29 AM »
Patti,

Clearly, the FIBS consensus would be that repbot should be removed if you are being hassled about it.  Everyone I know appreciates what you do for this community, and I personally HATE that you're being bothered with issues that have nothing to do with the FIBS service itself.

Is there any way we can add a line to repbot that reminds users EACH AND EVERY TIME they use it that comments about repbot ARE NOT UNDER ANY CIRCUMSTANCES TO BE SENT TO PATTI?  

I don't know.  You're absolutely right: FIBS ran for a decade without it, so it's not essential.  But it sure is nice to have it.

It's a shame that, as in many other facets of life, a few dodo heads are ruining something for everyone else.  Shame on whoever you are.

Thanks again, Patti.

mookie
 

Offline socksey

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« Reply #7 on: February 22, 2006, 03:10:35 AM »
Patti,

I find Repbot invaluable even with the abusers, and I implore you to allow it to stay.

Most of us who frequent Fibs know who the abusers are and look at the list to decide about the reputation.  We even have shouts with the abusers to discourage them.    

Must be newbies mostly who don't know what's what.  Anyway, sorry, you are being bugged about it.  If you want to forward inquiries to me, I volunteer to respond to them.

socksey



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« Reply #7 on: February 22, 2006, 03:10:35 AM »

Offline burper

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« Reply #8 on: February 22, 2006, 03:14:19 AM »
The fundamental flaw has spoken!

There was a time when fans of fibs were willing to work pretty hard to make what they thought were improvements. No encouragement from Patti, just her admin style, which is "if I don't like it, I ban it". Who in their right mind would work to improve it past the proof-of-concept stage when the plug might get pulled at any moment? If she had been encouraging instead, a proper Repbot might have been conceived of and written, followed by a fully debugged ChouetteBot etc... TourneyBot had a good run too, but in the absence of anything but Pattis random stomp-on-it-if-I-didn't-write-it attitude, it all went nowhere. Is this criticism warrented? Just act an Italian fibster. She'll shut down an entire country if it suits her.

Patti would tell you the proof-of-concept failed, because she listens to noone and defines the concept in whatever terms suit her. An outside bot can add functionality to FIBS without changing the fibs code itself. This functionality can, and has, been integrated into clients. It is a service people want (check the stats page). It proved some of this to Patti herself, as she responded to it with the droppers hall of shame page. All it took was a beating over her head to do something. I am sure she would deny that RepBot had anything to do with her adding that webpage, but ask anyone who remembers the timing of its' appearance and draw your own conclusions.

A better RepBot could be:
-silent and private with initial accusations, except for the parties involved.
-when enough different people, with enough experience (measured over calendar time, not just amount of games finished) had complained, a user might be moved from CLEARED, to UNDER INVESTIGATION.
-in a UI state, things might still be very private and quietly handled, and the bot might use the 'look' command to make more concrete determinations about droppers, making use of gnubg etc... if the user blinded the bot, that would mean something too.
-users could know who their accusers were.
-there would not be any peeking into matches by the bot without probable cause.

Way back when, I gave all sorts of ideas plenty of thought, as I believed something could be done, and that it was an interesting problem space. Noone else wanted to think about it, unless and until it pissed them off (with one notable exception, thanks Avi). Take a look at the emergence of reputation systems on other websites and servers, and consider the timing of RepBot. It proved plenty, Sure some of that  was some of the problems with such a systems might be.  But it continues to gain in usage, averaging over 500 unique users using it every day.

Patti doesn't want to consider any aspect of it, or even investigate who runs the thing  these days (which she has been told on many occassions, and a moments investigation would reveal to her). I've asked her before why she hasn't killed it, and she has told me she "would rather it went away on its own". Draw your own conclusions.

Patti, if someone bothers you, why don't you just use the gag command?

In parting, let me say, I gave up on RepBot long ago, and believe it has outlived its' experiment and should be removed from FIBS. I bet if you asked Avi (avik) to shut it down right now, he would do so. I would also like to thank maria for being my go-between in this enterprise. Patti doesn't listen to me, and I had an idea a voice from longtime fibs user and fellow female might do the trick.
 

Offline gammboy

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« Reply #9 on: February 22, 2006, 03:22:05 AM »
Quote
Plus, I don't even know who runs it these days, and the (required) contact information in the address field.

Repbot needs, in my opinion, a major overhaul.  Vouchers should only be accepted for a player with whom you have recently played, and a vouch should be worth 1 point, no matter who you are.  Similarly. a complaint should be worth -1.   Simple as that.  

Any other ideas?  How about a comment for each vouch/complaint?  Then you could have it list the last 10 comments people entered.

GB
« Last Edit: February 22, 2006, 04:26:59 AM by gammboy »

Offline Patti

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« Reply #10 on: February 22, 2006, 03:29:31 AM »
First off, one of the criteria for having a bot on FIBS is that it has to have contact information for the admin in the address field.  Repbot doesn't have that.  I shouldn't have to "investigate" who owns it beyond doing a whois.

If I'm not mistaken, the savedgame page predates repbot.  I assure you one had nothing to do with the other.

A better repbot would not allow bullying-- you could only file a complaint about someone if you had recently played a match against them.  I have deleted hundreds, HUNDREDS of accounts whose sole purpose was to beat someone up in Repbot.  Any design that allows that is totally farkled.

I believe you are entirely wrong about my attitude, which is, "It's perfectly welcome so long as it doesn't cause problems."  It's only when someone or something is a troublemaker-- either by abusing the system or making my work as an administrator more difficult-- that I take action.  I'd prefer to never have to step in for anything, but there are enough jerks that I don't have that liberty.
« Last Edit: February 22, 2006, 03:33:18 AM by Patti »

Offline socksey

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« Reply #11 on: February 22, 2006, 03:39:21 AM »
Burper, I have praised you highly for your efforts always.  You are brilliant, but you have a bothersome streak that allienates those who love you and appreciate you.  You don't know how to accept praise/gratitude for your efforts without biting back.  A quote comes to mind when I think of you.  "Forgiveness is the fragrance of the violet left on the heel that has crushed it."

Being rude to Patti is not the way to win friends and influence people.  Patti has been running Fibs for years for nothing.  She deserves praise, not abuse.

Marie/maria is one who vouches for droppers.  Go figure that one out.  As long as we are aware of this and Repbot has a "list" feature that lists vouchers and complainers we can still use Repbot productively to avoid the real droppers.

Thanks for providing us with the current owner of Repbot.  Perhaps we can get the commands modified to send inquiries elsewhere.

socksey



"We can easily forgive a child who is afraid of the dark. The real tragedy of life is when men are afraid of the light." - Plato  



 

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« Reply #11 on: February 22, 2006, 03:39:21 AM »

Offline maria

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« Reply #12 on: February 22, 2006, 04:24:54 AM »
People who know me know I am opposed to RepBot.
Rename it SavedBot and ONLY have it show how many saved games a person has. Forget all this vouching and complaining.
If someone thinks they have been dropped and they go on the rampage against the alleged dropper, they could get 20 of their friends to complain against this one person.
This alleged dropper would have 20 complaints for one dropped game.
I just don't see the sense of the complaining and vouching.
SHOW THE NUMBER OF SAVED GAMES AND LET PEOPLE JUDGE FOR THEMSELVES IF THEY WANT TO PLAY THE PERSON.
That's my 2 cents.
 

Offline socksey

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« Reply #13 on: February 22, 2006, 04:31:07 AM »
Maria,

It DOES show the saved games!  That's the one of the saving graces.  Even the abusers can't change the saved games.  If you just look at that and not at the reputation part, you can still judge whether you want to play someone or not.  If you know a lot of players, looking at the list of complainers can tell you a lot too.

socksey



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« Last Edit: February 22, 2006, 04:34:48 AM by socksey »

Offline burper

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« Reply #14 on: February 22, 2006, 04:34:47 AM »
No way maria, I say, if I don't like it, and no matter how many hundreds of users DO like it, exercise my right to be a HUGE pain in the ass to Patti until she shuts it down.

DEATH TO REPBOT!

Offline Mookie

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« Reply #15 on: February 22, 2006, 04:43:54 AM »
I confess.  I love repbot because it reminds me of Shuggie BEFORE the operation.

Mookie!
 

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« Reply #15 on: February 22, 2006, 04:43:54 AM »

Offline webrunner

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« Reply #16 on: February 22, 2006, 06:54:09 AM »
Maybe a simple solution....
Why not put this forum as the contact address?
That way people can put their complains here in stead of dumping them in patti's mailbox.

Taking it out of business is a little harsh on people who use it frequently and rely and depend on it. Sure, it is not perfect.. but Fibs isn't eather and we don't take that offline , do we? :rolleyes:
« Last Edit: February 22, 2006, 06:55:00 AM by webrunner »
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Offline Patti

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« Reply #17 on: February 22, 2006, 07:46:07 AM »
OK, quick show of hands.  How many of you can tell me what the savedgames list means?

How many of you know that it exists outside of repbot?

Offline Ramses

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« Reply #18 on: February 22, 2006, 02:08:24 PM »
i vouch for repbot. the reason why was already explained by many others here. so no need for me to do it again. espacially my english is not so good.
and yes i think i know what the savedgames list means and i know about its existance.

Offline socksey

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« Reply #19 on: February 22, 2006, 02:36:55 PM »
Yes, yes.  http://www.fibs.com/savedgames/list.html  Repbot is so much faster and easier to get to, tho.  ;)

There is a discrepancy between saved games page and Repbot.  Saved games says I have 7 saved.  Repbot says I have 5 saved.  Saved games tells me nothing but saved.  Repbot tells me who complained, who vouched, and saved.  

I have been told saved games in Repbot are erased after 60-90 days.  Patti, can you clarify this for us here?  Are saved games erased on the "saved games" page?

socksey



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« Last Edit: February 22, 2006, 02:38:09 PM by socksey »

Offline burper

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« Reply #20 on: February 22, 2006, 03:05:21 PM »
RepBots' list is more accurate, although Patti may try to revise that history as well.
The reason? The list on fibs comes directly from fibs, which saves ALL games including finished ones, for up to 24 hours (cleanup script runs once a day).
RepBot saves the list for an extra day and does an intersection across the list, so that only unfinished matches are shown.
There is still inaccuracy, say if you play the same player two days in a row.

There are people around smart enough to go get the start dates of the savedgames list and repbot. Heck, do a search on this board and you may find a discussion related to it. Repbot was first, and Pattis' savedgames list was in direct response to the need repbot identified.

How many more bothersome contacts from people recently dropped will Patti have to field after RepBot is gone? Does she think bothersome contacts from people pissed off about RepBot more than replaced those? Is it the volume of bothersome contacts she is really concerned about here?

To those that support RepBot, consider this: while RepBot lives, noone will bother to construct a better system. I say clear the way! Maybe the best solution was marvins' original, which was to construct a 'complain' command which sends messages directly to the bit bucket. :)

Offline burper

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« Reply #21 on: February 22, 2006, 03:17:45 PM »
Quote
If I'm not mistaken, the savedgame page predates repbot.  I assure you one had nothing to do with the other.
You might consider it a first, but you are mistaken:
Repbot, Oct 4 2001:
http://groups.google.com/group/rec.games.b...bbe6f38d1cdbdde
savedgames list, Dec 28 2001:
http://groups.google.com/group/rec.games.b...e9203d0467f1156

A decade goes by, RepBot appears, less than 2 months later savedgames appears. Coincidence?
 

Offline KDP

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« Reply #22 on: February 22, 2006, 03:20:49 PM »
personally i think repbot is a pc of crap and would love to see it go.  the only redeeming feature is that it shows the number of saved games an opponent has.  but since its been years since i personally have had anyone delibrately drop a match even that seems like a moot point now.  since ive been using the javafibs, it doesnt automatically give a players rep and saved count like 3dfibs does but i have to admit i still dont find out before accepting invites.  one thing to keep in mind is this, FIBS flourished before repbot and i suspect it will survive if he goes as well.

Offline burper

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« Reply #23 on: February 22, 2006, 03:32:15 PM »
I'd also like to point out, to those accusing repbot of abusability, the existence of the 'friends' command. With this command, you only get the opinions of those you trust. A basic assumption is made that those you trust is the same as those you have vouched for. If people had chosen to use it, the "maria-factor" and "Biggles factor" and "10k club factor" would have been eliminated. In essence, everyone would get a custom view of the database. In addition, a vouch would mean a little more, since it would "cost" you in terms of diluting your own view. Conversely, the temptation for abusive complaints would diminish, since the effect would only go as far as your gang.

vegasvic points out that, those who have been around awhile know who the droppers are. RepBot was a simple attempt at speed up that word-of-mouth.

Perhaps replacing the 'ask' command with 'firends' command would satisfy Patti? Somehow, since I am the one suggesting it, I doubt it. Maybe maria of socksey or diane should suggest it.
http://www.fibs.com/fibs_interface.html#repbot_friends

I would have thought maria would have been in favor of it, and try to convince everyone to use it, but that would have required thinking. <--that last part editted by socksey :) For her, here is a nutshell description of a similar system, with lots of pictures:
http://getoutfoxed.com/nutshell
« Last Edit: February 22, 2006, 05:48:23 PM by burper »

Offline sackofjaweea

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« Reply #24 on: February 22, 2006, 03:32:47 PM »
I love repbot.

Before it, I was dropped on all the time.

No, since I don't play people with negative reputations, I almost NEVER get dropped on.

I believe that's the whole idea of repbot, and to this end it works extremely well.

Keep on keepin' on, repbot!

Now let's get rid of JOKEBOT and QUOTEBOT!

--sackofjaweea (aka sackofshit, sackofshitweea, sackofjapeepee, etc.)

Offline adrian

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« Reply #25 on: February 22, 2006, 04:21:20 PM »
I will die without knowing the number of saved games a player has. I use and value the "friends" command, and I ALWAYS use the "list" command before making  decision, despite the math sign before the reputation.  I am aware of players vouched by my "sworn enemies" and I don`t play them, even if their rep. is sky high.  :P
If repbot will be gone, I BEG to Solomon, Peter and Pykos to add the "show saved" feature for opponent. I hate to waste time with droppers, if there is a way to avoid them beforehand.
 
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Offline mrbond

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« Reply #26 on: February 22, 2006, 04:22:25 PM »
IMO, vouches and complaints mean little. I have played against players with apparently bad reputations and have found them to be pleasent and a good sport, and I have played some reputable players who have acted in a totally inappropiate and an ignorant manner!!

I would, however, dearly love to have a "resolve" function, whereby, should a match be terminated unexpectedly it can award the game to the player depending on the position.   A time frame can be given to resume the saved game before having it resolved!








PS: I still haven't vouched for mookie!    :P  
That will be shaken, not, stirred!

Offline lewscannon

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« Reply #27 on: February 22, 2006, 04:47:58 PM »
my 2 cents:

i don't use repbot, due to the manipulation factor. i do use the saved games site when invited by a suspicious looking player (no, not mookie in drag. an 1750+ with low experience) repbot has potential, but the 'lord of the flies' attitude has to go.

Offline snowflakes

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« Reply #28 on: February 22, 2006, 05:10:41 PM »
This should be reason enough why repbot should be shot and killed!

You tell RepBot: list alef

RepBot says: alef's complainers: Anthony_J, Biggles, Biggles_two, Bobber, campesino, einstein, Honeygirl, Honeygirl_ll, katita, lucap, NIHILIST, snowflakes, yisgav
RepBot says: alef's vouchers: aleksander, amarganth, AMETHYST, Anika, artoor, austin, avik, Backwoods, bergkamp, billz, blottie, boardking, bthax, BushSucks, c_a_russell
RepBot says: alef's vouchers (cont'd): Carolina_Blue, chopos, Chris, CokeBear, comicopia, cordero, cowgirl, crueger, DaKid, DDEEBBZZ, diane, Dina, dlevy, doof, dus
RepBot says: alef's vouchers (cont'd): Dusty, EddieVedd, eeniemeenie, fibsy, GeorgeB, GordonH, grasshopper, grillbill, Hardy_whv, hiromi, HumanIAm, ibt, jant, jasonj, javiator
RepBot says: alef's vouchers (cont'd): jimbok, jkreed, Jojo, jokirk, Jons, jrham, juggler, Kamen, klic, kramdenfan, LisaS, MacMom, MadMatt, magic_one, mandie
RepBot says: alef's vouchers (cont'd): maria, marvs, Matrasback, MattsDad, maturin, Mlauzon, MND, moomee, moonshadow, Mort, Mr_Completely, nairda, nilla, Nis, Noah
RepBot says: alef's vouchers (cont'd): noodle, Norlan, OpenWheel, Orclev, Patrixia, Paul_William, phs, PIHB, Polfarer, qaid, QuasauQ, r_c, raphix, resipsa, rinit
RepBot says: alef's vouchers (cont'd): rkent, rodr, rollingfool, rossmann, runfast, sackofjaweea, satrun, scardy, shahgammon, Shuggie_II, silent_greek, Silverwind, Sinalove, Slipshod, snoo
RepBot says: alef's vouchers (cont'd): spielberg, Stefanie, sunray, TAE, tansley, taylor, TheExecutioner, Thouni, toe, Tomawaky, tomgraf, trailor, tryout, tucsonAZ, Tygger
RepBot says: alef's vouchers (cont'd): ufuk, vegasvic, Viskari, voodoo_roller, wallace, watchmen, webrunner, windy, Wizzard_of_Ozz, wyzzz, yyy, zakasax, Zorba
RepBot says: alef's complaints: afendi, badass, baldwin, Biggles, Biggles_two, Bobber, buzzman, Chmurek, csg, evilomlap, fungie, gonogo, hopper, Jackson, jazzman
RepBot says: alef's complaints (cont'd): katita, Krusty, MMagnani, NIHILIST, scuba, Simon, snowflakes, vegasvic, vic, wolfla, wunbungtung, yisgav
RepBot says: alef's vouches: _shortptr, acepoint, aceshaw, adihaim, ahsme, aki, alexe, alfredo, amarganth, AMETHYST, Amy, Andy_Germain, Anika, antigoni, AntMAn
RepBot says: alef's vouches (cont'd): artoor, austin, avik, B_A_N_K, Backwoods, baghira, barrycrooks, BComptrom, bergkamp, BillBill, billpapa, billz, Blotman, blottie, boardking
RepBot says: alef's vouches (cont'd): BSinclair, bthax, burper, BushSucks, c_a_russell, campesino, Carolina_Blue, Cheetah, chipski, chopos, Chris, clau, clay, CokeBear, comicopia
RepBot says: alef's vouches (cont'd): coolpaula, cordero, cougar, cowgirl, criminee, crueger, CutiePieII, cycle, DaKid, dalila, daniels, davide, DDEEBBZZ, denver, diane
RepBot says: alef's vouches (cont'd): Dina, dlevy, Dodgy, donzaemon, doof, doom, dorbel, dosenwurst, dsloan, dus, Dusty, EddieVedd, eeniemeenie, ekka, eliot
RepBot says: alef's vouches (cont'd): Feklhr, fergy, fibsy, fister, fiveboze, flashpoint, FotoMan, frankb, fri, funny, general, GeorgeB, georgehayduke, gnomysTwo, goats_milk
RepBot says: alef's vouches (cont'd): goblinprof, GordonH, grasshopper, griff, grillbill, Grohbyl, guggus, Hardy_whv, HARINCOZ, HARVEY, Heinz, hhenry, hiromi, hokra, Holg
RepBot says: alef's vouches (cont'd): holkeri, houtx, HumanIAm, Humanutan, ian, ibt, iloveit, indianajones, ingy, inthecan, ioni, jag, jant, jasonj, javiator
RepBot says: alef's vouches (cont'd): jimbok, jkreed, Joanne, Joe_F, Jojo, jokirk, jonnyray, Jons, jpb, jps, jrham, jtemp, juanz, juggler, Kamen
RepBot says: alef's vouches (cont'd): Kari_Grandi, kingfish, kipros, kitwoolsey, klic, kramdenfan, lene, leveler, lewscannon, LisaS, lnevo, lrb, macavity, MacMom, MadMarc
RepBot says: alef's vouches (cont'd): MadMatt, maeuschen, magic_one, mandie, maria, marti, marvin, marvs, Matrasback, MattsDad, maturin, maudia, melpaul, mgnu_advanced, mgnu_expert
RepBot says: alef's vouches (cont'd): mgnu_WClass, michaelsw, mjan, Mlauzon, mlp, MND, Monday, monitor, MonteCarlo, mookie, moomee, moonshadow, Mort, Mortsport, mpopj
RepBot says: alef's vouches (cont'd): Mr_Completely, Mr_Tubbly, muuri, mws, nairda, naldrich, narongt, Nediboy, neildown, NICK_L, nilla, Nis, nixo, Noah, Nondas
RepBot says: alef's vouches (cont'd): noodle, Norlan, numb, OHFish, OpenWheel, Orclev, ozone, Patrixia, Patti, Paul_William, peanuts, Pebbles, phs, pierrot, PIHB
RepBot says: alef's vouches (cont'd): pita, piuma, point, Polfarer, punketty, qaid, QuasauQ, QWerner, r_c, Ral, raphix, rastaman, rbooth, Regina, regulator
RepBot says: alef's vouches (cont'd): RepBot, resipsa, rinit, ritagru, rkent, rodr, roller, rollingfool, rom, RomanP, ronkarr, rossmann, ruma, runfast, sackofjaweea
RepBot says: alef's vouches (cont'd): Sakis, saleeby, SandyPar, santaclaus, satrun, scardy, Schigolch, Scubaken, Seadog, seda, shahgammon, Sharon, silent_greek, Silverwind, Sinalove
RepBot says: alef's vouches (cont'd): SirLuzalot_, skimo, Slipshod, slug, slw, snoo, sobolanul, socksey, spartiati, spielberg, splehadoy, Stefanie, steffan, Strangas, SubtleOne
RepBot says: alef's vouches (cont'd): sunray, svito, TAE, talmap, tansley, tavlafan, TawlehRayess, taylor, Tetzlaff, TGTHEGREAT, TheExecutioner, Therese, Thouni, tiki, tinker
RepBot says: alef's vouches (cont'd): tjking, toe, tom, Tomawaky, tomgraf, tomkeith, tomkinson, tonn, trailor, trice, Trilobite, trotteur, tryout, tucsonAZ, tuscal
RepBot says: alef's vouches (cont'd): Tygger, tyke, ufuk, venhigh, vido, Viskari, vitaman, vonne, voodoo_roller, wallace, Wallenstein, watchmen, weaky, wiljo, win_fried
RepBot says: alef's vouches (cont'd): windy, wingtsun, Wizzard_of_Ozz, wojoro, wordman, wyzzz, yes, Yetiman, yyy, zakasax, zanzibar, zdoc, Zorba, zyxtcba

Offline burper

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« Reply #29 on: February 22, 2006, 05:40:48 PM »
You'll have to explain further snowflakes. What was the point? That shows me that there are:
-a lot of fibs users whom alef is willing to refer other users to as "trusted" and "enjoyable" opponents
-a lot of fibs users who feel alef would be a trusted and enjoyable opponent
-a handful who feel the opposite about alef
-a handful who alef feels the opposite about.

Do you mean the high usage? That indicates RepBots' popularity to me.
Honestly, what is the point you were trying to make?

BTW, my original implementation called for a cap of 10 in each category. I felt that a limit would cause the value of each complaint and vouch to be considered more carefully before it was rendered, knowing that you have only that many. Avi felt otherwise, or was convinced by those that felt strongly about it, to uncap it.

I had a feeling that the Biggles, maria and 10k-club phenomena would evolve, but I also felt that RepBot was better served if other opinions than my own werer factored into it.

Its' an open-source project. If you want to be involved with it: https://sourceforge.net/projects/repbot
That is, if you have something more insightful to say than "I think it should be shot because I don't like it", or "its' fundamentally flawed because I didn't think of it first", "it can be manipulated because I haven't bothered to learn about the friends command", or "its' a pc of crap cause I say so" etc...

In particular, the start of a discussion of the friends command:
http://sourceforge.net/forum/forum.php?thr...forum_id=176712
« Last Edit: February 22, 2006, 06:34:51 PM by burper »

Offline Shuggie

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« Reply #30 on: February 22, 2006, 05:54:26 PM »
Keep repbot. Vouch mookie.
Don't hate me because I'm beautifull, just love me in that special way

Offline Patti

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« Reply #31 on: February 22, 2006, 07:03:16 PM »
It's fundamentally flawed because it allows you to complain about someone that you have no direct experience with.  That's a huge design flaw, and a relatively simple one to fix.  

Offline adrian

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« Reply #32 on: February 22, 2006, 07:05:46 PM »
I wonder why it wasn`t fixed yet ???
Helping people is tricky. Give help to anyone and he will remember it only when he is in need again.

Offline Mookie

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« Reply #33 on: February 22, 2006, 07:13:25 PM »
While we're "fixing" things that are fundamentally flawed, would anyone like to work on vegasvic?

mookie
 

Offline burper

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« Reply #34 on: February 22, 2006, 07:37:16 PM »
Quote
It's fundamentally flawed because it allows you to complain about someone that you have no direct experience with.  That's a huge design flaw, and a relatively simple one to fix.
The thinking behind that aspect of RepBot was this (at least my portion of it): if someone is shouting something objectionable, or you are hearing via trusted users that they are doing objectionable things, you ought to be able to render your opinion based on that. In other words, the reputation was seen as casting a wider net that just droppers.

 I assume by 'easy to fix' that you mean it could check the savedgames list, or maintain one of its own via toggle report, and only accept opinions between users who have recently started matches.

 What if someone logs in and it is obvious to you that they are the same person with a different nickname? You would have to start a new match with them in order to render an opinion?

Here is a direct question for Patti: if the only thing that changed, was that the 'ask' RepBot command was replaced with the functionality of the 'friends' command, would that satisfy your definition of a solution? I believe it removes both the motivation for, and the effects of, "abuse".

Oops, let me revise that. The other critical change is to the address field as she has specified.
« Last Edit: February 22, 2006, 08:51:00 PM by burper »

Offline webrunner

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« Reply #35 on: February 22, 2006, 08:41:09 PM »
Patti,
Lets keep at the problem at hand.
I thought you wanted to shut it down because it causes people to complain to you since there is no 'official place" for stuff about repbot, or at least.. it is not communicated.
That has nothing to do with the design or functions of repbot. Furthermore.. since repbot is open source it can be enhanced, unlike fibs.

I offered a solution for this, why is that not good enough?
I'll even setup an emmailbox for repbot if that is neccesary.
In my opinion there is no other reason to shut it down, or is it causing trouble on the fibs server?
« Last Edit: February 22, 2006, 11:07:40 PM by socksey »
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Offline Patti

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« Reply #36 on: February 22, 2006, 10:14:01 PM »
I want to get rid of it because it causes multiple problems.  The main problems are that people complain to me about things that happen with RepBot, and that there's a huge exploitable hole in it that causes me to have to do a lot of cleanup on FIBS.

I don't believe that the former can be reasonably solved-- people are going to whine to me regardless, though social engineering could reduce this problem.  I do believe that the latter can, and I participated in an extensive design discussion for a solution over a year ago.  I can't remember who was involved, though... Jeepsy?  Jonesy?

It's also violating a FIBS rule by not having valid contact information for an administrator.  If there's a problem with a bot on FIBS, I want to be able to get in touch with the owner of said bot, and I want any user on the system to also have that ability.  Unless the dropbox goes to someone who can Solve The Problem Right Now, it's insufficient.  (This is trivial to fix.  All the current owner has to do is log in and use the "address" command to enter his email address.  Voila!)

And yes, RepBot causes trouble on the server.  The problem it causes is that some people will create multiple accounts, throw lots of matches between them to build up experience, and then bomb RepBot with complaints.  I then have to go in and clean up.

As for burper's friend command solution, I'm not sure that will work terribly well.  What happens if a user is new to FIBS?  Since experienced users already know who the droppers are, RepBot is most useful to newcomers.  And if newcomers can't get sufficient information, what's the value?


I've seen a lot of people over the years say that they want to fix RepBot, but nobody has ever stepped up to the plate to do anything about it.  Maybe this time they will-- the current situation is no longer workable for me.

Offline hss

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« Reply #37 on: February 22, 2006, 11:22:16 PM »
RepBot is just mechanized  gossiping and against fundamental principles of fainess and justice.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Audi_alteram_partem

Once I asked someone. Why do you complain abou me? and he did not even know why.


 

Offline burper

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« Reply #38 on: February 22, 2006, 11:30:01 PM »
Quote
As for burper's friend command solution, I'm not sure that will work terribly well.  What happens if a user is new to FIBS?  Since experienced users already know who the droppers are, RepBot is most useful to newcomers.  And if newcomers can't get sufficient information, what's the value?
 
I don't put users into those two narrow bins: "brand new", and "all knowing". Most users are somewhere in between. If you define "new" as having experience 0, meaning they don't play very much, then it hardly matters does it? And experienced users that instantly know who all the droppers are? That doesn't exist.

What happens when a new user logs in and there is no RepBot at all? Not much different from a friends-only RepBot. But it doesn't take very long for people to start making friends. Make just one vouch after your first match and you have a tiny bit better idea of who to play. Better than none at all. Does your definition of "new" cover someone with experience==3?

How about after they've played 20 matches or so, and maybe been dropped once or twice. Still "new"? With a friends-only RepBot, they would have *some* reputation information to go by, and more as they went on. Inf act, 20 matches worth.

And the all-knowing ones? How can they know about a "new" nick, unless perhaps someone or two people on their list has alerted them to the new dropper? How can the "experienced users", however you define them for me, know about droppers that don't even exist yet?

But go ahead and bend reality anyway you want Patti, its' clear your mind is made up, and its' your server. Why discuss it at all? Just pull the damn plug already. Can you really stand another 40 days of RepBot frustration?
 

Offline Patti

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« Reply #39 on: February 23, 2006, 12:55:59 AM »
You're extending "I played a match successfully with this person once", to, "I trust this person's judgment."  I don't think that's a valid leap.

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« Reply #40 on: February 23, 2006, 01:01:28 AM »
Repbot is not useful to me.  

Having played on FIBS since close to the beginning, my observation is that outright droppers are few and far between.  A small number still exist, but once burned, I stay away from them.  My best guideline is to engage in games with players with more than 1000 experience points.  That may be unfair to beginners (and we were all there once!), but it certainly reduces the delays and the drops encountered when your opponent is not facile with FIBS.

 

Offline burper

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« Reply #41 on: February 23, 2006, 01:43:07 AM »
Quote
You're extending "I played a match successfully with this person once", to, "I trust this person's judgment."  I don't think that's a valid leap.
You're extending that into "I'm only ever going to play one match and depend on that outcome forever".
That's certainly not valid.

Offline don

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« Reply #42 on: February 23, 2006, 03:13:10 AM »
As far as FIBS rules are concerned, Patti should enforce them when they are broken.  I admit I'd like to see these rules listed somewhere.

RepBot was an attempt at filling a hole not provided by FIBS, has *some* value and has shortcomings that were discussed years ago.

I would like to encourage a *list* of the rules of FIBS.  Where is it?  Does Patti enforce it?  But Patti is not being unreasonable in the case of RepBot contacts and having to put up with them.  Burper is in antagonistic mode these years, sigh.  He's capable of a contribution when he's less oriented to his own ego, as is Patti.

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Offline don

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« Reply #43 on: February 23, 2006, 05:57:08 AM »
In fact, I'm a little surprised that Patti would start a conversation like this about her "problems" with a FIBS' program when she can't seem to enforce the first rule of FIBS:  no racism.

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Offline Tomawaky

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« Reply #44 on: February 23, 2006, 06:46:11 AM »
I can't understand people who want repbot go.
It's only a feature available at fibs.

Those who want to use it, do.
The other, don't.

So what is the matter to keep it or not.

Sure this bot must stay
And sure people who don't like it, must ignore it.

It's the same thing as people who keep complaining about Fibs and keep playing.

Isn't some king of masochism ?


Personnaly I used repbot only to have info about saved games and sometimes I look at people who vounch or complain about players. It's help me sometimes to confirm my mind.
So yes for people who don't understand the way repbot works, it can be some confuse.
That's not enough for me to ban Repbot.
Tomawaky "I feel good da da da da da da da.........i knew that i would now........."

Offline don

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« Reply #45 on: February 23, 2006, 07:53:56 AM »
Tomawaky:

You are a contributor to FIBS.

I don't think you understand the way RepBot is used to "10K" new users who fall a'foul of some old jaded users.

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Offline adamosad

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« Reply #46 on: February 23, 2006, 01:29:46 PM »
The friends command sounds really good. I used to get the list of a candidate opponent. Now it is even easier that before.

A solution for Patti is to ignore all the multi-accounts that are related to repbot and just copy paste the link of this topic to the people who emails her.

Now if Patti has a problem with communication, then I think Webrunner’s suggestion can work. He can create a mailbox for repbot.

Finally about the misunderstanding of all the new users: We can create a new topic here and explain them how the bot works. This post can be pinned by Socksey or webrunner. The programmer can enter a simple message after each Repbot reply which will contain the link to that new topic, so all fibs users can read about its “hidden” usage and get the unbiased results.

Finally all who dislikes repbot can ignore it. We can not destroy a bot which someone spend a lot of time to write it; a bot which gives a lot of useful info that we can not get from any other source only because we are forced to do some extra work. (Expesially when there is a solution which can lower that work and gives to the bot the opportunity to contunue serving our community)  
 

Offline gammboy

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« Reply #47 on: February 23, 2006, 06:10:36 PM »
Quote
In fact, I'm a little surprised that Patti would start a conversation like this about her "problems" with a FIBS' program when she can't seem to enforce the first rule of FIBS:  no racism.

Don - what I think you don't understand is that Patti does not need to concern herself with petty matters, like what YOU might consider rules violations, or what I might consider repbot abuse.  Her task is to keep the server running, and to do so without significant load on herself.  She does so for free, and does an exemplary job if you ask me.  Her task does NOT involve babysitting.

Without putting words in her mouth, her modus operandi is clear to me: "I will run and maintain the server for free.  I reserve the right to squash anything or anyone that causes me grief.  I get to decide what those things are.  This is not a democracy.  If you don't like it, there are other backgammon servers on the net."
 
If you want a full time moderator and babysitter, I would imagine there would be a salary involved for that individual.  I would rather gag people I find offensive and keep Fibs free myself.

GB
« Last Edit: February 23, 2006, 10:00:20 PM by gammboy »

Offline webrunner

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« Reply #48 on: February 23, 2006, 07:26:45 PM »
Quote
The friends command sounds really good. I used to get the list of a candidate opponent. Now it is even easier that before.

A solution for Patti is to ignore all the multi-accounts that are related to repbot and just copy paste the link of this topic to the people who emails her.

Now if Patti has a problem with communication, then I think Webrunner’s suggestion can work. He can create a mailbox for repbot.

Finally about the misunderstanding of all the new users: We can create a new topic here and explain them how the bot works. This post can be pinned by Socksey or webrunner. The programmer can enter a simple message after each Repbot reply which will contain the link to that new topic, so all fibs users can read about its “hidden” usage and get the unbiased results.

Finally all who dislikes repbot can ignore it. We can not destroy a bot which someone spend a lot of time to write it; a bot which gives a lot of useful info that we can not get from any other source only because we are forced to do some extra work. (Expesially when there is a solution which can lower that work and gives to the bot the opportunity to contunue serving our community)
 :yes:  
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Offline Patti

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« Reply #49 on: February 23, 2006, 08:27:02 PM »
adamosad,

People are NOT going to go trot off to some webpage to get more information, for the most part.  They're just going to see something that happened on RepBot and ###### to me.  Building a bot interface into clients has made it worse, since more people just think RepBot is part of the FIBS service.

And copying-and-pasting a link into email is the same amount of work for me as giving them any other canned response.  One of my goals is to reduce the number of complaints I get.


And thanks, gammboy.  Honestly, Don is just trying to derail the discussion with his own pet peeve. I'd recommend that everyone just ignore him.

Offline adrian

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« Reply #50 on: February 23, 2006, 08:36:46 PM »
I give up!

I will donate some money for the person who can replace repbot with something that can show the number of saved matches of a player, without the hassle of  opening a web page, search within it and count.

Plug it out.
Helping people is tricky. Give help to anyone and he will remember it only when he is in need again.

Offline hss

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« Reply #51 on: February 23, 2006, 10:01:56 PM »
Quote
I will donate some money for the person who can replace repbot with something that can show the number of saved matches ..
How much is some money?
2 cents?
2 Euros?

Offline gammboy

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« Reply #52 on: February 23, 2006, 10:03:39 PM »
Quote
I will donate some money for the person who can replace repbot with something that can show the number of saved matches of a player, without the hassle of opening a web page, search within it and count.

Give your money to the 3DFibs author.  It already does that automatically.

GB

Offline boomslang

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« Reply #53 on: February 23, 2006, 10:46:59 PM »
A way to have a look at the saved games of the player that just invited you, would be that the client of the inviter literally tells you the result of a 'show saved' command.

Suppose I have 2 saved games and the result of my 'show saved' looks like

  opponent         matchlength   score (your points first)
  PLAYER_B                   5              2 -  0
  PLAYER_C                unlimited         0 -  0

(The latter can be ommited because it doesnt say anything about me being a dropper or not.)

If I invite PLAYER_A to a 3 point match, my client could -- right after sending the invite -- do a

   'tell PLAYER_A boomslang has 1 unfinished game with PLAYER_B'

or just

   'tell PLAYER_A boomslang has 1 unfinished game.'

The show saved command can be done after each whoinfo message or just after each invite sent.

I do know that it requires some work for the client programmers and that the show saved command can be cumbersome to parse because you don't know exactly when it is finised displaying.  Maybe adrians money can persuade the cthulhus and tucsonAZs in this world ;-)


 

Offline adrian

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« Reply #54 on: February 24, 2006, 08:07:28 AM »
@gammboy : 3dFibs does that for now, by "ask"ing Repbot. How about in the future, when there won`t be a repbot ? That was my point , hope it`s clearer now.

@boomslang : That was a good and  documented answer. TY
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Offline webrunner

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« Reply #55 on: February 24, 2006, 09:38:26 AM »
Quote
@gammboy : 3dFibs does that for now, by "ask"ing Repbot. How about in the future, when there won`t be a repbot ? That was my point , hope it`s clearer now.

@boomslang : That was a good and  documented answer. TY
Actually, 3DFibs gets the saved games list from Fibs and parses that....
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Offline diane

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« Reply #56 on: February 24, 2006, 09:47:24 AM »
Does this mean that feature will still work, even if repbot is absent?  And can I set a programmable button in javafibs to check the saved in the same way ( if I ever get my head around all that ) to replace my current repbot look ups?
Sorry if i am asking you to state the pbvious - but none of this is obvious to me - honest!  :wacko:

I think it is time to get serious about contigency plans - I think Patti means it this time....
The main deal being the actual system work - deleting accounts rather than answering whiney emails - which cant be passed on in the same way emails can.
« Last Edit: February 24, 2006, 09:50:03 AM by diane »
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Offline diane

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« Reply #57 on: February 24, 2006, 10:30:12 AM »
Quote

I just don't see the sense of the complaining and vouching.
SHOW THE NUMBER OF SAVED GAMES AND LET PEOPLE JUDGE FOR THEMSELVES IF THEY WANT TO PLAY THE PERSON.
That's my 2 cents.
This does tickle me - although you are wonderful maria - this does expose the biggest inconsistency of all.  One time I noted that you had complained about a dropper - when i asked about why the break from usual form - you replied - ahh this dropper dropped my freind.....  
So it seems you do actually agree with the idea of repbot after all - you just dont consider most of fibs to be your friends...I can sympathise with that... :P
« Last Edit: February 24, 2006, 10:30:35 AM by diane »
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Offline adrian

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« Reply #58 on: February 24, 2006, 02:04:58 PM »
Quote
Actually, 3DFibs gets the saved games list from Fibs and parses that....


 :blush: Then "some money" will go to Solomon.

 
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Offline socksey

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« Reply #59 on: February 24, 2006, 02:18:31 PM »
Patti,

I have just received an answer from Avi.  Apparently he has placed his own email for contact info for Repbot now.  That will address at least one of your concerns and may in itself end most of your emails concerning Repbot.

Maria,

why can't you just overlook the rep and only look at the saves information Repbot gives?  

i've never used repbot as a weapon or a popularity contest.  i've only used it to vouch for players who lose to me and don't drop and to complain to it if i am truely dropped.  i think this is true of most players.  i know who the players are who abuse repbot, you included, so i look to the listing for that.  if a players saved games do not correspond with the rep, i look at the list to see who complained on that person.  that almost always tells me if it is really a dropper or not.  

i will give you one exception.  i complained once on someone who had dropped a friend.  i then later removed the complaint.

i have been admonished by a friend for vouching for someone at least once, but i didn't remove my vouch.  i've tried to be completely honest about my complaints and vouches.  it would be nice if everyone would, then we might not be having this discussion.

socksey  




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« Last Edit: February 24, 2006, 02:46:17 PM by socksey »

Offline socksey

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« Reply #60 on: February 24, 2006, 11:25:59 PM »
I have expored the "friends" feature and I must agree with burper.  The "friends" command gives no reputation, only which of your friends has vouched or complained on a player and the saved games.  There should be no complaining to Patti or anyone about that.

Patti, would you be willing to give this a try?

Avi, can you eliminate the "ask" command?

socksey




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Offline don

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« Reply #61 on: February 25, 2006, 07:31:30 AM »
FYI:

Several FIBS users have written an interface that will give you saved matches.  I wrote one a couple of years ago, that would give you both the number of saved matches and if you wanted, who they were with.  Its not complex.

What I find amusing is this topic started by Patti, in which she demonstrates her inabillaty to control FIBS by selecting the most reasonable users to attack instead of the repeat users who are really causing her problems.  I just logged into FIBS while writing this, and have seen one racially offensive shout out of one (dipr shouts: wassup, my niggazz!!!).  Get rid of the racists and solve most of the problems, IMHO.  Not that dipr is particularly offensive, he's just following the lead of some of the worst of FIBS, that Patti can't or won't handle.

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« Reply #62 on: February 25, 2006, 04:00:16 PM »
While having nothing but sympathy for Patti I cannot help feel it is conceptually wrong to remove Repbot for all its faults.

There is almost no other method available to spot serial droppers or droppers in the making.

However, a simple solution would be to remove any player from Fibs with a certain number of saved games - 20 would seem reasonable to me.

That way we would not need Repbot and the problem would be solved for Patti and the majority of resonable users at the same time.

Tomkinson

Offline don

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« Reply #63 on: February 25, 2006, 05:24:19 PM »
Hey Patti:

I know you have a knee-jerk reaction to anything I say, but I said years ago that the solution to any problems with RepBot was to simply make it objective.  Complaints and vouches can be manipulated by devious users for whatever purposes, number of saved games and with whom are objective criteria.

So duh, just show saved games, either the number or the list.  Two commands:

tell RepBot ask XXXX
tell RepBot list XXXX

No possibility of a scam, and complete discloser of information.  I even wrote the bot and had it online for FIBS at one time.

Example:

tell RepBot ask NIHolympic
    NIHolympic has 30 saved matches

tell RepBot list NIHolympic
    NIHolympic has saved games with the following players:
BLADER Bubblegum CraigHicks Hwood Jean_le_Joueur KingOfHoldem MonteCarlo RubberLass Shadenfreude ___NFL bot_named_sue_II bubba dirkibrasil don donzbot_II furki gBOTcasualplayer georgianpeaches gollum ialwayslose kyri medocrat patriots raspberry resh_lakish rmuller schorfo sugarfreejazz xguestx yossik
[/b]

If the RepBot were limited to these two simple objective queries, potential manipulation would be greatly reduced.  You could refresh RepBot's info with the same macro that I assume you use to save FIBS match information on the same timely basis with one addition to your macro/boot/whatever file.  This would provide MORE information, and THE information many have requested programmed into FIBS over the years without the hassle of programming it into FIBS.  It's a bot!

I would recommend appropriating "RepBot" as a user name, since many are already used to it, but see no problem with a simple "Rep" as a bot-name, or anything else you want.  I believe you have simple access to FIBS doc files so it could show up on the help list, but even if you don't, it would be workable.

As I've said, I've written and tested such a program.  I wrote it in PYTHON, and would be willing to make my source code available.  If you want to test it, I can have it running on my server for a while, though I've not added any refresh commands.  I haven't looked at it for a while, but I was dinking with continuous updates before I got bored.  I'm uncertain what language a perma-bot should be written in, but I'm sure I'm not the only FIBSter who would be willing to invest a bit of time to get an objective, permanent-resident bot, providing valuable information for FIBS.

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Offline burper

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« Reply #64 on: February 25, 2006, 05:48:38 PM »
Quote

As for burper's friend command solution, I'm not sure that will work terribly well.  What happens if a user is new to FIBS?  Since experienced users already know who the droppers are, RepBot is most useful to newcomers.  And if newcomers can't get sufficient information, what's the value?

So your only complaint is that you don't think it would help people find more enjoyable matches to play, i.e. it does in fact solve the problems you are concerned about?

You have also said that you prefer to stay out of the way and let people solve their own problems. So why not allow this to be tried?

"friends only" is essentially an opt-in system. Any accounts created for registering opinions would have ZERO effect, and thus not be created to begin with. Well, no doubt some "zero" would try anyway, but they would have no effect and thus would not cause anyone to complain to you about it.

The messaging could change to make it painfully obvious that the vouch or complaint you register goes only to those who have vouched for you.

The address line has already been changed. That was a minor oversight.

If it doesn't work, i.e. solve anyones' problems, then why not let it die on its' own, which you have told me privately you would rather see then to force it.

You are willing to live with it as is until the end-of-March, so why not use that time to see if friends-only works? If you said you would give it a fair shake, and avik was cooperative (I believe he would be), then I would certainly make these changes (they are easy anyway).
« Last Edit: February 25, 2006, 05:49:02 PM by burper »

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« Reply #65 on: February 25, 2006, 06:11:39 PM »
Newcomers usually don't know about Repbot (I'm often asking them if they do, and telling them about it).  

I think the "friends" command is far superior to anything that simply shows saved games.  

For those of us who have been here for years, we know who we can trust (for the most part), so having the list of friends who have vouched or complained on someone we don't know would be of great help in deciding who we will play.  There are at least a few players who have very bad connection problems and thus have a lot of saved games.  This is a good example of how just showing a lot of saved games might not indicate a dropper.

The more I think about it, the better I like Repbot with the "friends" command!  I think we should give it a try.

socksey



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« Last Edit: February 25, 2006, 06:13:38 PM by socksey »

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« Reply #66 on: February 25, 2006, 10:17:55 PM »
As I've noted to Burper, my main concern with the "friends" feature is that it might be unfair to those Fibsters who have no friends.  Who are they to trust?  How would that work?  Burper assures me that they can act like they have friends, but then, wouldn't that be embarrassing if one of these folks said, "hey, mookie is my friend," when, in fact, I am not.  I mean, my whole posse would then laugh at me behind my back!  The horrors!

Mookie, who is worried that he'll have to replace his "Vouch Mookie!" schtick.
 

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« Reply #67 on: February 26, 2006, 02:40:15 AM »
After socksey’s and webrunner’s replies, I think that the Patti's email problem is already history.

Now if Avik get rid of the ask command no-one will create a new account just to vouch or complain because only the friends command would exist anymore. So if someone decide to create a new account, he must spend a lot of time to convince all the fibs players that he is a non-dropper friend to vouch him (so it's inefficient to create MORE than one as he must play with all the community)... BUT even if someone prove to Patti that one person did that, then Patti must delete ONLY one account instead of dozens of them.

The friend command will do the good job for us (to avoid droppers) and the multi-accounts cleaning will be history (as positive and negative reputation numbers will vanish) and Patti can relax....

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« Reply #68 on: February 26, 2006, 10:18:55 PM »
all this crap to play bg...

Offline don

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« Reply #69 on: February 27, 2006, 03:34:23 AM »
socks.

There are two areas of functionality of RepBot:  saved games; friends.  Of these two, one is objective, the other is not and has been used as a malicious weapon by some FIBS users.

I suggest separating the two and seeing which is more useful.

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Offline burper

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« Reply #70 on: February 27, 2006, 12:46:24 PM »
Quote
There are two areas of functionality of RepBot:  saved games; friends.  Of these two, one is objective, the other is not and has been used as a malicious weapon by some FIBS users.
You are wrong. First of all, there is also the alert function, so that is at least 3. The malicious use you speak of is in regard to the 'ask' function, which is NOT the 'friends' function. I don't think you are getting it, but I value your opinion.

Offline burper

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« Reply #71 on: February 27, 2006, 12:51:12 PM »
Quote
As I've noted to Burper, my main concern with the "friends" feature is that it might be unfair to those Fibsters who have no friends.  Who are they to trust?  How would that work?  Burper assures me that they can act like they have friends, but then, wouldn't that be embarrassing if one of these folks said, "hey, mookie is my friend," when, in fact, I am not.  I mean, my whole posse would then laugh at me behind my back!  The horrors!

Mookie, who is worried that he'll have to replace his "Vouch Mookie!" schtick.
Am I the only one that takes mookies' comments seriously?

One enhancement to the friends function might be to allow users to apply custom weights. That way, if I wanted to make you believe I was your friend, I could say "vouch mookie 0", which would make you appear on my vouch list but add no weight to your opinion. As a counter example, Patti may not be my friend, but because I may value her opinion of others and trust her to finish matches, I would "vouch Patti 100", which would add her to my vouch list with full weight.
« Last Edit: February 27, 2006, 01:16:25 PM by burper »

Offline burper

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« Reply #72 on: February 27, 2006, 01:01:32 PM »

Quote
the solution to any problems with RepBot was to simply make it objective.

Agree, but I think we can do better than simply saved games. That's why the objective friends command is better. You not being objective when you select people to vouch for. If you are not, its' only a problem for you.

Quote
So duh, just show saved games, either the number or the list. 
The "duh" sounds kind of insulting, which is why they might have a knee-jerk reaction. Just trying to help.

Quote
I even wrote the bot and had it online for FIBS at one time.
How did it work? Did people use it? Did you open source the code and make it available so that others might be able to pick it up and run with it after you got bored?

Quote
If the RepBot were limited to these two simple objective queries, potential manipulation would be greatly reduced.

Greatly reduced isn't good enough. I believe Patti is going for complete elimination, which is what "friends" would give us.
« Last Edit: February 27, 2006, 01:15:27 PM by burper »

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« Reply #73 on: February 27, 2006, 01:14:23 PM »
Quote
My best guideline is to engage in games with players with more than 1000 experience points.  That may be unfair to beginners...
It may be unfair to you as well! I believe a friends bot would break open the 1000 experience barrier for you and make FIBS an overall friendlier place. The emphasis would shift from complaining to vouching.

Someone could even run a bot that plays only newbies, and registers vouches or complaints based on being dropped. If someone values that data, they could vouch for the bot, say with a weight of 50. The bot could also have some other welcoming features, localized help, etc...

I would step up to the plate and do some coding, but it seems I have been removed  from the RepBot developers list for my derogatory comments about RepBot:
http://sourceforge.net/project/memberlist.php?group_id=53209

I was told it was my "KillRepBotNow" address line that finally pushed them over the edge.

 

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« Reply #74 on: February 27, 2006, 04:44:39 PM »
Quote
I was told it was my "KillRepBotNow" address line that finally pushed them over the edge.
  :rolleyes:   That might give you a clue!   :lol:

Way back there somewhere in the thread someone said 3DFibs was not connected to Repbot, but it is!  At least that is what it says when the response window comes up.  So 3DFibs would have to be modified for the changes.

socksey



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Offline burper

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« Reply #75 on: February 27, 2006, 05:09:30 PM »
Quote
So 3DFibs would have to be modified for the changes.
socksey
Unless it is configurable.
What other clients use RepBot directly like this?

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« Reply #76 on: February 27, 2006, 05:17:15 PM »
I hope that Avi & Alef will put you back on the list. Coding the "friends"  command is not very difficult, more important is to have the data at hand so repbot will continue to work seamlessly.  ;)

Please do it burper! Don`t let  the repbot idea to go away entirelly from fibs  , give it a new life.
Helping people is tricky. Give help to anyone and he will remember it only when he is in need again.

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« Reply #77 on: February 27, 2006, 05:44:07 PM »
[QUOTE socksey]Way back there somewhere in the thread someone said 3DFibs was not connected to Repbot, but it is! At least that is what it says when the response window comes up. So 3DFibs would have to be modified for the changes.
Quote


Hmmmm, but does that mean 3dFIBS needs to be reconfigured.  I thought that 3dfibs automatically sends a "tell repbot ask " question about anyone who invites you as soon as the invitation is offered.  If repbot were reconfigured, it would give you the response based on your "friends" list, wouldn't it?  Really, All we would have to do is make the "ask" function only work with reference to your friends list.

THAT IS, rather than getting rid of the "ask" command, just change the function of the "Ask" command so that it gives you the "friends" response.  Then, nothing but the command has to be reconfigured.  

I also LOVE the idea of being able to weigh the value of "friend's" advice.

mookie
« Last Edit: February 27, 2006, 05:45:49 PM by Mookie »

Offline burper

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« Reply #78 on: February 27, 2006, 05:45:02 PM »
Quote
I hope that Avi & Alef will put you back on the list. Coding the "friends"  command is not very difficult, more important is to have the data at hand so repbot will continue to work seamlessly.  ;)

Please do it burper! Don`t let  the repbot idea to go away entirelly from fibs  , give it a new life.
No, I think it may be time for a radical change of some sort. Soemthing more than removing the 'ask' command and even changing the name of the bot. I am thinking along the lines now, of removing the 'complain' command as well.

What effect do you think that would have? If you see someone who has lots of saved games and is not a bot and none of their vouchers appear on your vouched list, then their 'esteem' value would appear to you as zero. You make your decision based on those two numbers. Negative 'esteem' (need a better word) would not be possible.

That is certainly a radical change! There would be no perceived negativity to be angry about in the first place. Maybe that could be tried for some period of time, and then complaints reconsidered once the idea of "localized" opinions sets in.

Being open source code, anyone can grab it and do what they want with it. But you are correct in thinking that only Avi and Alef now have access to the saved databse (which, when I ran it, was publically accessible as well), in addition to whatever value the RepBot "brand" has. But, if you think the function was abusable, then the data is corrupt in some sense anyway. If a switchover to friends-only occurred, it should cause people to review their entire list of vouches in a new light.

Nobody, including Patti has stated that there are any problems with friends-only. Everyone who has addressed it, except for Patti, has liked the idea. Pattis' only beef was that she didn't think people would derive any value in it, but that is flavored with her recent frustration with RepBot in general.

Friends coding has been in place for many years, people just have not discovered it yet for the most part. Perhaps it is too hard to immediately grasp? If you are talking about the effort in switching from its' current functionality to a "friends-ONLY" mode, then it is quite literally a matter of substituting 2 characters for 5 ("ibs" to "riend" in RepBot.java on the line that registers the ask command).
Removing the complain function could initially be a matter of adding one character to "comment out" the complain command registration line. But then you have that ugly output when you list, so you might consider doing a tiny bit more to remove that stuff. Internally, there is still some cruft leftover in handling the complaints tables in the database, but it should do no outward harm.

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« Reply #79 on: February 27, 2006, 11:24:10 PM »
To be precise, I *did* point out a problem with friends-only mode.

If you start with the assumption that reputation information is valuable, the problem is that the people who most need information, new users, are blocked from getting it.

(n.b. I'm not necessarily agreeing with the assumption, but that's because I think the whole vouch/complain system is flawed.  I've managed to play on FIBS for well over a decade and never found a need for it, and I don't think I've been dropped in the last 5+ years.  Nonetheless, it's the assumption on which repbot is built, so if you want to discuss the continued existence of repbot you need to start with that assumption.)

I honestly think that the right fix is to change the code so that you can only generate an opinion of someone within a very short time window after you have played a match with them.  While there are rare cases where there could be some value in registering an opinion for someone you've had no 'contact' with, almost all of the haven't-played cases are reputation bombing of some sort.

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« Reply #80 on: February 28, 2006, 12:08:11 AM »
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Am I the only one that takes mookies' comments seriously?
Yes, and you should be very afraid.

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« Reply #81 on: February 28, 2006, 02:22:19 AM »
Quote
Quote
Am I the only one that takes mookies' comments seriously?
Yes, and you should be very afraid.
Hey, I understood that.

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« Reply #82 on: February 28, 2006, 02:25:57 AM »
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so if you want to discuss the continued existence of repbot you need to start with that assumption.
And there is an assumption you can let go of. I really wish you would pull the plug already. Your cooperative attitude will no longer be needed, thanks.

Offline gammboy

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« Reply #83 on: February 28, 2006, 03:28:55 AM »
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Way back there somewhere in the thread someone said 3DFibs was not connected to Repbot, but it is! At least that is what it says when the response window comes up. So 3DFibs would have to be modified for the changes.

No. Although 3DFibs does automatically query repbot and display the results, it gets its saved games count (as displayed on the invite dialog where you click accept or decline) from the fibs.com saved games list.

In the preferences, you can tell it to download a fresh list every time you sign on.

GB

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« Reply #84 on: February 28, 2006, 03:34:24 AM »
Quote
I honestly think that the right fix is to change the code so that you can only generate an opinion of someone within a very short time window after you have played a match with them. While there are rare cases where there could be some value in registering an opinion for someone you've had no 'contact' with, almost all of the haven't-played cases are reputation bombing of some sort.

For what its worth, I see this as a "must have" feature of any new incarnation of repbot.

GB

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« Reply #85 on: February 28, 2006, 05:34:19 AM »
Burper, my show-saved bot was freely available, both for testing and for source.  I think I mentioned it here at least once.  I couldn't leave it up and running because I used methods not supported by my ISP's PYTHON, so I couldn't make it a sleeper.  It's not really very complex, just reads the available data from Patti and regurgitates it in two modes, simple number of saved and a list.  I'll make it available to you if I can find it and if you need it.

It's major innovation for FIBS is ripped off from NOBS, the show player saved function.  In my case it was, I believe, something like "ask DTBot player" and  "ask DTBot list player" or somesuch.  These are objective functions, and IMO more imformative than any subjective complaints, vouches and friends thingies.


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Offline burper

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« Reply #86 on: February 28, 2006, 02:14:40 PM »
Quote
No. Although 3DFibs does automatically query repbot and display the results, it gets its saved games count (as displayed on the invite dialog where you click accept or decline) from the fibs.com saved games list.
 
Note that this is less accurate than RepBot, which intersects yesterdays list with todays in order to discard the "started AND finished" matches. It might be worth considering.

The saved games list from fibs is misleading in at least these ways:
-the count includes matches started and finished since the last time the "match file garbage collection" script ran, which is less than 24 hours.
-it counts unlimited matches

A bit akward to implement for a client, and still just a first pass at making the list more accurate.

Offline burper

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« Reply #87 on: February 28, 2006, 02:19:05 PM »
Quote
Quote
I honestly think that the right fix is to change the code so that you can only generate an opinion of someone within a very short time window after you have played a match with them. While there are rare cases where there could be some value in registering an opinion for someone you've had no 'contact' with, almost all of the haven't-played cases are reputation bombing of some sort.

For what its worth, I see this as a "must have" feature of any new incarnation of repbot.

GB
Note that the RepBot "list" function has always shown an asterisk next to the name of opponents with whom an outstanding savedgame exists. I'm not sure that mitigates anything.

I remember debating with Avi that the 'saved match at the time of complaint' be saved for the life of the complaint and not expire with the saved match on FIBS, but he out-voted me :)

In fact, one might argue that I am more with Patti on that issue than the current hoster of RepBot. Wouldn't that be weird?

Offline burper

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« Reply #88 on: February 28, 2006, 02:21:47 PM »
Quote
Burper, my show-saved bot was freely available, both for testing and for source.  I think I mentioned it here at least once.  
 
If I was wrong, I apologize.
Where is it now? I'm not a pythoner myself, but I believe for projects such as this one, you should try to post the code somewhere so that future fibsters who become interested can benefit from it, perhaps long after you have become bored with it. Perhaps webrunner has a place for it here?

Offline NIHILIST

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« Reply #89 on: February 28, 2006, 09:46:50 PM »
I've felt from day one that RepBot was useless and a tool for abusing players by complaining whether justified or not. And through all the preceeding conversation I haven't seen one post address the area which MIGHT make RepBot valuable.

While RepBot shows the number of saved games  a player has, it doesn't indicate whether the player was WINNING or LOSING the saved matches as Netgammon does. In other words, RepBot does NOTHING to identify the dropper or the droppee. Whether we admit it or not,we tend to characterize a player with lots of saved games as a DROPPER.

I have a ton of saved games, mainly from clowns who think it's great fun to invite me, F-bomb me, then drop. No big deal, as an old client once said, NEVER EXPLAIN, NEVER COMPLAIN. It doesn't seem to keep me from getting invites.

Having said my piece I must admit that RepBot was indirectly responsible for perhaps the single most valuable contribution of all time to the FIBS community..............it got Don banned from FIBS for 6 months.


NIHI
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Offline gammboy

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« Reply #90 on: February 28, 2006, 10:34:44 PM »
Quote
While RepBot shows the number of saved games a player has, it doesn't indicate whether the player was WINNING or LOSING the saved matches as Netgammon does.

Without access to the FIBS server source code, this is not (as far as I know) possible.  However, consider the following:

>stats NIHolympic

NIHolympic:  (R=1,930.55 / E=8,891): 1,097 wins, 564 losses, 137 resumes. Finished 1,661 matches of a total of 1,770 starts on file, leaving 109 matches unfinished.

A bot that keeps track of match starts and finishes can give a little more insight into a player.  For instance, a bunch of unfinished matches and no resumes is a pretty strong indicator.

GB
« Last Edit: February 28, 2006, 10:45:17 PM by gammboy »

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« Reply #91 on: February 28, 2006, 11:03:50 PM »
Am I correct in assuming that the UNFINISHED MATCHES total is the number of current saveds and saved matches that were never resumed and disappeared after 3-6 months ?

NIHI
Robert J Ebbeler

Offline burper

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« Reply #92 on: February 28, 2006, 11:05:50 PM »
Quote
Without access to the FIBS server source code, this is not (as far as I know) possible.
Its' possible. You could make a bot that use the 'look' command  and analyze them with gnubg.

From a practical standpoint, you couldn't do them all.
You might have this bot look at suspect droppers, i.e. those with lots of complaints.

True, a user could perma-blind this bot, but that would tell you something as well.

As far as privacy goes, you might ONLY look at suspects, and AFTER fair warning, i.e. "probable cause".

Offline gammboy

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« Reply #93 on: February 28, 2006, 11:26:33 PM »
Quote
Am I correct in assuming that the UNFINISHED MATCHES total is the number of current saveds and saved matches that were never resumed and disappeared after 3-6 months ?

Unfinished matches is the number of starts minus the number of finishes since the beginning of my bot's data collection (June '05).  It is data independent of Fibs' savedgames list.

GB

Offline gammboy

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« Reply #94 on: February 28, 2006, 11:37:21 PM »
Quote
Its' possible. You could make a bot that use the 'look' command and analyze them with gnubg.

I would think that even keeping simultaneous track of 20 matches would yeild less than satisfactory results.  Missed moves, etc.  Not to mention the load on the server that volume of looks would generate.  So, I agree, it is theoretically possible, but not practical. At any rate, this sounds like more of an admin tool than something for the general user population.

GB

Offline socksey

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« Reply #95 on: March 01, 2006, 11:30:13 PM »
From Patti,
Quote
I've managed to play on FIBS for well over a decade and never found a need for it, and I don't think I've been dropped in the last 5+ years.

Who would drop Patti?????????? LOL Sorry, but if someone drops you they can be extinct immediately. Am I not correct? Being an administrator has it's perks too!  

socksey <------------still likes Repbot




"I see in the near future a crisis approaching that unnerves me and causes me to tremble for the safety of my country…corporations have been enthroned and an era of corruption in high places will follow, and the money power of the country will endeavor to prolong it's reign by working upon the prejudices of the people until all wealth is aggregated in a few hands and the Republic is destroyed." - Abraham Lincoln
« Last Edit: March 01, 2006, 11:32:00 PM by socksey »

Offline Patti

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« Reply #96 on: March 02, 2006, 01:54:15 AM »
socksey, I basically don't play live people as myself-- only bots.  I have an account that nobody knows is me, that I use for just playing as a normal user.  No drops, no problems.

Offline don

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« Reply #97 on: March 02, 2006, 07:11:30 AM »
Burper, I'll ressurect the bot if you are really interested.  As for NIHI's comment, such a bot would be quite simple if the data were available, and is achieved in some form on NOBS, which makes current match situations available via the oldboard command.  I'm not impressed with NIHI's little protest since he's one of the ones who abuses RepBot.  With access to the FIBS database, as is available on saved games thanks to Patti(both numbers of and with whom) bots can provide functionality without actually reprogramming FIBS.  More access = more happy campers, IMO.

--
don
 
So many string dimensions, so little space time...

Offline socksey

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« Reply #98 on: March 03, 2006, 06:01:34 AM »
Patti says:
Quote
socksey, I basically don't play live people as myself-- only bots. I have an account that nobody knows is me, that I use for just playing as a normal user. No drops, no problems.

This is getting off the subject a bit, but have we ever played?  Who won?   :rolleyes:

socksey



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Offline Patti

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« Reply #99 on: March 03, 2006, 06:16:18 AM »
Socksey, you've gotta be kidding.  I can barely remember what I had for lunch today, let alone what matches I might have played over the last few years.

People always come up to me at poker tournaments and ask, "Do you remember that hand you played against me last year at ..."  Yeah, right.  After tens of thousands of hands, I'm going to remember one from a year ago?

Offline socksey

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« Reply #100 on: March 03, 2006, 01:58:01 PM »
:lol:   Np!  I have a hard time remembering what happened within one game!   :o Just kidding with you.   ;)

socksey




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« Last Edit: March 03, 2006, 01:59:04 PM by socksey »

Offline lewscannon

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« Reply #101 on: March 03, 2006, 10:04:16 PM »
Quote
socksey, I basically don't play live people as myself-- only bots.  I have an account that nobody knows is me, that I use for just playing as a normal user.  No drops, no problems.
I've long suspected that Patti and Resh are the same person.

Offline Mookie

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« Reply #102 on: March 04, 2006, 12:11:08 AM »
WOW!!! 6 pages of posts in response to Resh's report cards!!! We are a lovely community!!!!

MOOKIE
 

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« Reply #103 on: July 28, 2007, 02:24:18 PM »
This topic is old but still there is no fix for the problem.

As a new user I find GossipBot very irritating and complitely useless. Also the endless crusade against droppers is a vaste of time.

If the other player disconnects or leaves unfinished match he should just automacally lose it. This happens in every other bgserver why not here? There could be five minutes time to reconnect but that's it. Saving should be allowed only if both players agree to do so.

If you start a match you finish it or resign it. If you have any personal reasons or connection troubles that's you're problem not the opponents. How funny it would be if you were allowed to "save" matches in real tournament. "Sorry, I don't feel like playing now. Let's see in week or so - maybe."

Propably someone have suggested this million times before but someone should until this problem is fixed.

Offline Chris

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« Reply #104 on: July 30, 2007, 09:58:18 AM »
Fibs is closed source and its creator neither changes the code nor publishes it.
So bots are the only possible workaround.

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