Author Topic: Completion bonus (Read 26086 times)

blitzxz · « **on:** January 30, 2008, 05:09:05 AM »

I see major problem in this rule. Now you can get points from forfeit. So in the end of the season team should forfeit all the remaining matches that can't be played for some reason to get completion bonus. Well, let's say this is banned. Then how can we for example play against KDP if she's banned? Or doesn't that count?

FIBS Board backgammon forum · « **on:** January 30, 2008, 05:09:05 AM »

sixty_something · « **Reply #1 on:** February 05, 2008, 04:56:02 PM »

another good question, blitzxz .. i just noticed your post this morning a week after you'd posted it

i also just finished a reply to zyxtcba (TL "godmin") from an email i sent him last night .. i noticed he had been on FIBS shouts expressing some thoughts on just this .. i don't feel comfortable sharing his email reply, but his shouts from last night are public record and i'll extract parts of my reply

Quote from: *** edited FIBS shouts from last night, 2/4/08 - day 21 of the 44 day TL season my comments in red

DeaDice shouts: say...godmin....will KDP be relplaced...and new player assumes his record?

zyxtcba shouts: It is my desire to see no players replaced midseason - esp. if they've played as many matches as they have ...

DeaDice shouts: opening page says KDP is banned...

zyxtcba shouts: I see it as an internal team problem - it's your own fault if you chose Michael Vick to play on your team ...

zyxtcba shouts: Yes - KDP is banned for excessive surliness - but the captain of that team should have realized what they chose when getting KDP [KDP is the captain of that team .. the other players are new to TL]

zyxtcba shouts: everybody's got something to ban exept me and my monkey.

DeaDice shouts: so his unplayed matches?

zyxtcba shouts: however, I am clearly only a lesser godmin now and so I cannot act by fiat.

DeaDice shouts: how do we play 100% then?

zyxtcba shouts: also, the DRC election was not conducted and so there is no formal DRC to my mild annoyance [mine too]

zyxtcba shouts: I would choose that these teams eat forfeits for their recalcitrant players
zyxtcba shouts: brl and KDP
zyxtcba shouts: brl has three unplayed matches [brl's last match (against PlayBunny, KDP's teammate) was posted as a loss ~~and has been confirmed~~ since yesterday, if there were three when he withdrew, were they all forfeited?]
zyxtcba shouts: KDP has nine [still does]

zyxtcba shouts: however, other players have weighed in and suggested replacements be found

DeaDice shouts: so we are not elgible for 100% because KDP banned?

zyxtcba shouts: I have clearly stated that players who are banned for cause or split of their own free will should not trigger replacements
zyxtcba shouts: but I am but one voice

zyxtcba shouts: soupy is of the replacement attitude but since brl is on his team, he recused himself

zyxtcba shouts: I have said my position is firm on this
zyxtcba shouts: but I asked for a captain's vote to occur but time is running out. [who did you ask? i'm a captain and never been asked squat]

zyxtcba shouts: gotta go ...
zyxtcba drops connection.

i don't think zyx was ignoring Dea, but clearly there are no answers forthcoming to these questions we're all asking without someone making a decision or taking some action .. here's my opinion and recommended action

Quote from: email reply from me to zyxtcba this morning

the role of the league is to protect the league of teams .. to forfeit KDP's remaining matches may have negative impact on other teams .. first, 9 teams will receive a win, few complaints there, perhaps, but with those loses KDP's teammates will be instantly eliminated from contention and may have a lock on last place .. getting them to even play, much less finish their matches, will create a lot of frustration and probably make the completion bonus issue a mute point

next, as i recall, KDP was banned well over a week ago .. that's less than two weeks into a 7 week season .. using the sports team analogy, when a player is banned the team suffers because it must reorganize, but it does not suffer because there is no longer a first-baseman on the field .. there is a replacement available .. yes, we'd have to recruit a replacement, but that shouldn't be too difficult there are more than 4 weeks remaining in the season

your logic of automatic forfeits on banning or withdrawal and secondary forfeits on dispute by opposing players is fraught with the same problem we got into last season of deciding a championship by forfeit or some rule technicality .. that is something to avoid at all costs, imho, and rather than avoid just presents an even greater potential for [rules] manipulation

a ban or resignation should [have] as little impact on other teams in the league indeed even on teammates as is possible .. i can imagine few situations other than at the end of a season where a replacement player cannot be found to keep the games going

the problem here seems to be no one is representing the league

...

[i am concerned with] the apparently unilateral decision to ban KDP and even brl soup's own teammate resigning .. WTF is going on? .. then there is the spontaneous banning of don over shouts last season .. the dispute at the end of the last season, once again involving soup's team .. in fact, i don't recall a non-unilateral decision since being involved in TL

in trying to run the league without hassle and disruption (even from you [zyxtcba]), soup may have isolated himself into a position like that of Oz where the kingdom is based on smoke and mirrors .. that isn't good for soup or the league

i also noticed all references to the non-existent captain's committee has been omitted from the rules and modified to a section on "Post-season Dispute Resolution" with reference to an election .. hummm, i'm not taking any bets on that election happening either

[action]
imho, we need an ongoing captain's committee, a dispute resolution committee from day one each season, and an open process for making rulings .. handling rule decisions and discussions in random FIBS shouts, private emails, and worse unilaterally is not healthy for anyone and not in the best interests of the league

anyway, lots of issues here .. but really just random ramblings of concern which need to be aired with others involvement and feedback too

let me make it clear, i'm very supportive of the efforts of souptree and zyxtcba at getting and keeping this league going .. while i'm sure neither will be happy with me airing these thoughts here, in absence of any other forum than random FIBS shouts and private emails this seems like a suitable public place to have this discussion and others about FIBS Team League issues .. better than scrawls on the walls of a public restroom anyway

sixty

Old minds are like old horses; you must exercise them if you wish to keep them in working order.
-- John Adams US diplomat & politician (1735 - 1826)

dorbel · « **Reply #2 on:** February 05, 2008, 06:44:26 PM »

If a player withdraws or is banned, then it may appear fair to make his/her team suffer the consquences, but it isn't. Why should two innocent team members suffer because of an idiot? Not only that and perhaps more importantly, why should some teams have to compete for a point, while others later in the season are given a point for nothing? Most of the top teams still have to play KDP, why should they have a point given to them?
On the related topic introduced here by 60, why does souptree think that he is the best person to be the sole arbitrator of how the league should be administered? Even such a noted TD as Howard Markowitz deals with disputes by making a decision, sometimes based on advice and then offering the parties the option of a dispute resolution comittee, usually of three experienced players.
In my opinion, souptree is superb at organising the Team league pages. Perhaps TD is not the best use of his talents. I can't have been the only one last season who felt that the don/donzaemon dispute and don's subsequent ban was badly handled.

kopmann · « **Reply #3 on:** February 05, 2008, 07:07:17 PM »

Speaking as Captain:
Give the team a chance and let them replace KDP with another player. I think, that is fair; the time remaining is sufficient: Still 1 month.
ck

FIBS Board backgammon forum · « **Reply #3 on:** February 05, 2008, 07:07:17 PM »

adrian · « **Reply #4 on:** February 05, 2008, 07:12:31 PM »

Completion bonus is ok.
Teams that lose members for any reason, shall be deleted and the subsequent points earned/lost by other teams discarded ,if no replacement is available , not later than two weeks before session ends.

Is that simple and fair enough?

factotum · « **Reply #5 on:** February 07, 2008, 03:09:45 PM »

For this season, I agree with adrian about replacements. And since there was no election Soup and zyx must decide whether to allow replacements and which, if any, teams and associated results to remove.

For the future, I would eliminate the completion bonus. It could provide a basis for manipulation or appearance of manipulation of results if a player fails to complete their schedule. Why have it at all? The existing forfeit rules are adequate.

If Soup and zyx want to be the permanent DRC that's ok with me, but then remove the section about elections from the rules. If they want elections then I would suggest the ballot be included in Soup's welcome message with the votes directed to zyx, letting him take it from there.

don · « **Reply #6 on:** February 07, 2008, 07:41:52 PM »

Quote from: factotum on February 07, 2008, 03:09:45 PM

For the future, I would eliminate the completion bonus. It could provide a basis for manipulation or appearance of manipulation of results if a player fails to complete their schedule. Why have it at all? The existing forfeit rules are adequate.

The existing forfeit rules are adequate but they are not enforced. Requests that they be enforced are likely to tick off the current Dispute Resolution Committee, such as it is.

--
don

sixty_something · « **Reply #7 on:** February 07, 2008, 11:17:47 PM »

ok, i just heard from souptree .. he says it would be "spiffy" if we can find a replacement player for KDP who has 9 matches remaining .. please let us know if you or anyone you know would like to join us in another exciting Team League finish .. either leave a message here for me or a message at FIBS for me or soup with possible candidates .. getting a good replacement player with over three weeks remaining in the seasons will hopefully resolve this problem to everyones satisfaction .. KDP is currently rated at 1788, thus anyone with a rating of that or for simplicity less than 1800 would be a fair replacement, imo

with a good finish, DG on FIBS still has an outside shot at making the playoffs .. the simulation model puts them in 11th place, not last, with a 22% chance of making the playoffs, which is tied for 8th best amongst all teams

Don't let the sun go down upon your anger;
forgive each other, help each other, and begin again tomorrow.
-- Louisa May Alcott , Little Women US juvenile novelist (1832 - 1888)

FIBS Board backgammon forum · « **Reply #7 on:** February 07, 2008, 11:17:47 PM »

dorbel · « **Reply #8 on:** February 08, 2008, 08:34:43 AM »

So now the ruling that KDP's remaining matches will be forfeit is reversed and 60 (why 60?) is advertising for a replacement. This is probably the correct ruling, but we have never been told why KDP was banned, we weren't told when the decision was taken that the remaining matches would be forfeit and there has been no announcement of this new decision either.
It was also decided that brl's remaing three matches would be forfeit and souptree himself forfeited them, but no announcement there either. What else goes on that we don't know about?
The way in which this league is administered leaves a lot to be desired, to say the least. It's a great league, it's a lot of fun and its designers are to be applauded, but it isn't well run. Transparency and fairness please!

(moved topic from TL5 Predictions - sixty)

sixty_something · « **Reply #9 on:** February 08, 2008, 10:31:00 PM »

dorbel, i can only guess at the question "why sixty"? perhaps because i was the noisiest and most persistent .. regardless, i've sent several emails to soup and zyx over the past two weeks .. on Thursday afternoon, after Bago, i received an email from soup .. i followed his instructions, posting messages for KDP's teammates at FIBS that we'd be actively searching for a replacement .. i then began doing that

now, we've received a captain's ballot to make the decision official including a decision on brl's forfeits or alternatively a replacement there, too .. i'm ambivalent on that issue, but, with three weeks left in the season, a replacement seems the logical choice there, too

but that decision was not and is not mine .. the outcome of the captain's vote will be posted by soup on Monday at the TL homepage .. i'm ok with whatever the majority decides in either case .. i'll leave the shout here seeking a replacement unchanged and continue to search in periodic shouts and queries, in case that is the decision .. either way, it'll be "spiffy" with me, too

i also totally agree that TL has been and remains "a great league, it's a lot of fun and its designers are to be applauded" .. as for fairness, i have no doubt soup and zyx have done their best to be fair in all past and current decisions

transparency, on the other hand, has been largely absent .. i'd like more transparency and structure not totally reliant on soup, too .. but if it weren't for soupy, we wouldn't be having this conversation which leads me right back to ambivalence like Susanna and her shrink in "Girl Interrupted":

Susanna: I'm ambivalent. In fact that's my new favorite word.
Dr. Wick: Do you know what that means, ambivalence?
Susanna: I don't care.
Dr. Wick: If it's your favorite word, I would've thought you would...
Susanna: It *means* I don't care. That's what it means.
Dr. Wick: On the contrary, Susanna. Ambivalence suggests strong feelings... in opposition. The prefix, as in "ambidextrous," means "both." The rest of it, in Latin, means "vigor." The word suggests that you are torn... between two opposing courses of action.
Susanna: Will I stay or will I go?
Dr. Wick: Am I sane... or, am I crazy?
Susanna: Those aren't courses of action.
Dr. Wick: They can be, dear - for some.
Susanna: Well, then - it's the wrong word.
Dr. Wick: No. I think it's perfect.

but then no self-respecting shrink would dare try figuring anything out in fibsland

College football would be more interesting if the faculty played instead of the students - there would be a great increase in broken arms, legs and necks.
-- H. L. Mencken US editor (1880 - 1956)

magic_one · « **Reply #10 on:** February 10, 2008, 04:30:53 PM »

I represent KDP. My understanding of the the recent incident involving KDP which resulted in souptree banning KDP from your tournament follows: The banning was a unilateral action, having been made without KDP having been given the opportunity to present his perspective. Furthermore, KDP has apologized, and would like to go forward with fairness and respect for all. He wishes to continue in this tournament. I know that the actual facts are complicated, but that should be irrelevant; given KDP's remorse, and willingness to proceed gentlemanly. Can't we all just give him the benefit of any doubt, and put this incident behind us, and move on?

Sincerely,
magic_one

don · « **Reply #11 on:** February 10, 2008, 04:56:09 PM »

Excellent post, magic. The key is unilateral actions, IMO.

Quote from: magic_one on February 10, 2008, 04:30:53 PM

The banning was a unilateral action, ...

Apparently, it's OK for some TL members to do or say anything they want, but not others. As has been said many times, there is no Dispute Resolution Committee to speak of, and hasn't been any procedure for fair treatment of any issues by such a committee or even by the collective team captains.

--
don

FIBS Board backgammon forum · « **Reply #11 on:** February 10, 2008, 04:56:09 PM »

burper · « **Reply #12 on:** February 10, 2008, 07:09:24 PM »

If KDP is ruled out (seems less than a final decision at this point), then I would be glad to fill in for him the rest of this round.

sixty_something · « **Reply #13 on:** February 10, 2008, 07:13:35 PM »

thanks, magic_one, for that perspective .. i have no clue about the circumstances involved, nor does anyone else to my knowledge which is far from complete .. regardless, moving on is certainly in the best interests of all concerned .. whether that is with a replacement or KDP returning is not up to me, nor probably open to consideration at this point without an even bigger mess

nonetheless, i'll copy and send these posts along to souptree and zyxtbca for their consideration as these fibsboard threads are unaffiliated with team league in any way other than informative and hopefully entertaining .. however, such a forum whether here or accessed off the team league homepage seems to be worthwhile .. hopefully, in future seasons, that too can be implemented .. soup has done a terrific job in setting up TL and regardless of our feelings about any individual issue needs to be acknowledged for that .. real life has apparently been keeping him real busy lately, but i trust this and other issues will be handled fairly, if not swiftly, and we can focus on the fun and the exciting race to the playoffs this season shedding a little daylight along the way

For the night was not impartial. No, the night loved some more than others, served some more than others.
-- Eudora Welty US novelist & short story author (1909 - )

dorbel · « **Reply #14 on:** February 10, 2008, 08:07:39 PM »

KDP is banned from the league and can't be replaced.
KDP is banned from the league and can be replaced.
Team Captains now have to vote on the matter.
What next I wonder? The first decision was fundamentally bad. The second decision seemed better. The third decision is ludicrous! Nine of the captains are interested parties in that their team still has an outstanding match against KDP.
brl is banned and his remaining three matches forfeited.
Team captains now have to vote on that as well.
There are rules that are supposed to govern this league, but they are being flagrantly ignored by the TD. How can this be right? Get it together guys.

sixty_something · « **Reply #15 on:** February 10, 2008, 10:51:32 PM »

just to make it perfectly clear, i am NOT the TL TD nor associated in any way with TL other than as a player/captain for three seasons, reporter of simulation results for two seasons, a noisy fibsboard poster since joining, and moderator of this forum

additionally, neither souptree nor zyxtcba, the TL administrators, either reads or supports fibsboard in any way .. so, while this forum may have become a useful relief valve for expressing our opinions and experience, no assurance is expressed or implied that TL administrators are aware of details of our discussions .. direct email or TL email is the only way to assure that

finally, i've recently been "promoted" to general moderator here at fibsboard and generally speaking i'm not getting paid enough for any of the above or below .. further, i am not looking for any more "well paid" jobs in fibsland, but will work for beer, ciggies, and/or phone bill contributions .. neither the Pakistani's at the corner store or Ma Bell seem to be interested in accepting nacci points despite donz's assurances my nacci points are redeemable for sushi in Tokyo

regardless, i remain optimistic, a happy camper, and enjoy fibsboard immensely .. i shall now *stfu* on this subject .. i trust it will be resolved to everyones satisfaction

It's easy, they sank my boat.
-- John F. Kennedy , When asked how he became a war hero 35th president of US 1961-1963 (1917 - 1963)

FIBS Board backgammon forum · « **Reply #15 on:** February 10, 2008, 10:51:32 PM »

BushSucks · « **Reply #16 on:** February 10, 2008, 11:03:34 PM »

Just a few, short words because I have not much time and English is not easy for me:

In both cases, brl and KDP, we, the captains of the team, received an email from souptree to make a vote on how to handle the situation. For both players there were two, identical options:

replace the player by a substitude and let him play the remaining matches OR[/b]
forfeit the remaining matches to the unplayed opponents.

I think this is unfair to the opponents of KDP and brl who already played their matches and lost to KDP or brl.

The other players, who have a remaining match, should now receive a forfeit? So the early players are basically punished because they lost to KDP and brl instead of getting a forfeit later?

I have a strong opinion on this, and it is the only chance I see to keep a fair and equal ruling in favor of all players/teams:

IF a player is either banned or drops out of competition at his own will, ALL of his played and unplayed matches should be void and given a forfeit in favor of all his opponents.

Bad for his two teammates, right, but they should have double checked to get a nice, friendly and reliable player into their team in the first place.

According the substitutes: Just too difficult and complicated solution. Is he better than the original player? Or worse? Will he play at full strength? And: substitude players are not mentioned in the ruling pre-saeson, so why introduce it in the middle of it?

And I back up Dorbel's point: how can we have a vote, and an neutral one, if all of the voters have an interest on how to handle the situation, depending on their team's result so far against KDP or brl?

What's next? Will we see an election/vote after the season on which teams should be in the playoffs?

Another, different point: I have no idea WHY KDP has been banned from soup. Therefore I can not make a vote on how to handle the situation at all. Maybe it is best to accept his/her apology and let the games go on. And for the future: if there should be a ban for any player, the player should complete the current season, but be banned for the next one or two seasons. Just an idea...

spielberg · « **Reply #17 on:** February 11, 2008, 12:56:26 AM »

Quote

Posted by: burper
Quote
If KDP is ruled out (seems less than a final decision at this point), then I would be glad to fill in for him the rest of this round.

I'd also be delighted to take kdp's place if both the decision stands and the other teams want an easier opponent than burper.

KDP · « **Reply #18 on:** February 11, 2008, 01:17:16 PM »

i thought long and hard about posting something here and finally decided to add my 2 cents worth in. let me start by saying that the issues soup and i have had in the past regarding the league are my own fault. i freely admit i'm not the most gracious loser. that is why the ban was very surprising to me. i made a conscious effort to play my matches without comment. my reasoning was that if you dont say anything, no one can complain. it is my personal belief that he was looking for an excuse to ban me and got one however flimsy or without merit.

what disappoints me the most is that soup made no effort to ask me about the complaint or to hear my side of the story. his decision to ban me without consulting the other captains or coming to me to see if i had any sort of explanation showed all the compassion and restraint of the local taliban leader. but then again it is his league, he can do what he wants.

it is my wish to complete what i started. i had played half my matches and i agree with the other posters that its not fair to either my teammates or the other players to issue a forfeit. getting a sub certainly would be the lesser of two evils but still not a perfect. i wonder if the other captains had voted to let me continue (it would probably have to have been a write in as im sure they werent given that option) if soup would have agreed with their wishes.

let me finish by saying to whoever complained. i apologize, im sorry if i have hurt or offended you in any way, it certainly wasnt my intention. to my teammates, good luck in the rest of the session, to my opponents i didnt get a chance to play im sorry for the unfulfilled opportunity.

stog · « **Reply #19 on:** February 11, 2008, 04:11:24 PM »

hi soup

as in the other leagues, if a player doesn't play / complete all matches - it is tough, but those that have played that player early, and won/lost have the points - so i think with brl withdrawing - i am ok if a replacement is brought in to finish his games however on this occassion

kdp is contrite and has apologised,( see fibsboard) and wants to continue - so let him continue

if we start banning lippy arseholes on this server there will be no one to play

if you refuse to let him continue then all results should stand as re my arguments above with reference to the fibs leagues

regards and good luck

stog

Howdy all,

Sorry for the slowness in dealing with this. I have been very busy here and haven't had much time for FIBSdom of late.
...snip...
Please reply back asap and I will post results and take associated actions on Monday. If you know of possible substitute players, please have them contact me ASAP, preferably by email.

Thanks,

soup

Author Topic: Completion bonus (Read 26086 times)

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