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Author Topic: FIBS Tournament Schedule  (Read 41235 times)
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Bubba
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« Reply #100 on: October 05, 2013, 08:40:25 PM »

Thanks for the very detailed answers to my questions.

I'm all for the soda machine, can one of the choices be sugar-free A&W Rootbeer? thumbsup



ps. Bubba what is your FIBS name? I see this is your FIRST post here... so who are you?

On FIBS I am Kofa (I've registered here before with that name but don't know the email or password).  I did well in some tourneys early in the week, so I got sucked into going for the TPR ranking...hence all the questions.  The competition just won't let up, so I needed all the specifics.   Smiley
« Last Edit: October 05, 2013, 08:51:20 PM by Bubba » Logged
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« Reply #101 on: October 05, 2013, 09:07:32 PM »

What a mess! Who started this anyway? Don't answer that.

It seems to me the solution to the issue of UTC vs. LOCAL can be resolved by simply listing BOTH.

OK, I know it is not so simple. This requires someone manually adjusting the UTC time whenever DST changes, wherever it changes. That is not once as we have discovered.

Yes, if tournaments were on a strict UTC schedule this would not be necessary. But we and the rest of the world have discovered we like DST. For us as players, TD's and admins, LOCAL time is essential to establish a familiar fixed time for a tourney to start. Locally, noon is noon regardless of DST status, but local noon relative to UTC changes by +/- one hour twice each year for at least three different cycles.

Regardless, UTC is the ONLY way we can universally communicate time throughout the year with players from around the globe.

IMO, the current confusion stems from the omission of UTC from listed times. Originally, both a local time and relative UTC were listed. Now, only local times are listed. I think that omission needs to be re-evaluated.

Since the new format appears to be spreadsheet based, how about creating a calculation to do that UTC conversion semi-automatically based on local time and three associated DST toggles? Once developed, I suspect it could be fully automated. Of course, the attachment would need to be replaced manually during or after seasonal DST changes, each DST change.

It's good to see the continued interest in keeping the schedule thread current and accurate. But remember, the original purpose was to make the schedule user friendly; such that any newcomer could quickly reference it and find tourney times with as little confusion as possible.

It seems somewhere along the way we've forgotten that, but improved and simplified the accuracy by using local times for each tourney. While this keeps it as simple as possible for TD's, TourneyBot and the schedule maintainer, a reader is required to be familiar with converting to their local time from three listed time zones. There is nothing friendly or easy in that conversion. Functionally, especially for a newcomer, the text only schedule becomes almost unreadable without some serious head scratching.

Again, thanks to all for continuing to maintain this calendar. Like all things at FIBS, much more work is involved than is apparent on the surface. It's wonderful to see we now have 31 regularly scheduled tourneys. That's up from only about a dozen two to three years ago.

I have not missed being responsible for the calendar in the least, nor do I want to assume any new responsibility. Nonetheless, I hope my suggestion and comments can prove useful.

Keep local, but list global. Then readers are only required to know their own UTC adjustment and DST status. That's about all most of us can handle.
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« Reply #101 on: October 05, 2013, 09:07:32 PM »

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diane
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« Reply #102 on: October 06, 2013, 10:43:43 AM »

Regardless, UTC is the ONLY way we can universally communicate time throughout the year with players from around the globe.

Er, no it isnt...there is the system we are currently running coupled with the bot telling you time to next tourney in 'hours and minutes from query'


IMO, the current confusion stems from the omission of UTC from listed times. Originally, both a local time and relative UTC were listed. Now, only local times are listed. I think that omission needs to be re-evaluated.

Then you really are gonna have to come up with a way of doing it other than me maintaining it. I did the painful upkeep of the list you provided, 4 times per year, stuffed it up every time necessitating more changes - and didnt notice anything except criticism for it.

I will ask again...can the Bot not simply export a list of tourneys it runs? Lucky Dice can the keep the schedule up to date for the one event that isnt run with the bot..easy. I dont understand why that is hard?


Since the new format appears to be spreadsheet based, how about creating a calculation to do that UTC conversion semi-automatically based on local time and three associated DST toggles? Once developed, I suspect it could be fully automated. Of course, the attachment would need to be replaced manually during or after seasonal DST changes, each DST change.


Complicated compared to above - but a good fall back position. Once it is written, attach it to the first post and I will be happy to post one of the four pages per year. If you label the tab..maybe something like Jan -  April xx, April xx- May xx, October xx - November xx., I can simply put some calendar reminders in for me to change it.

Actually, that only covers American and Australian time changes..Europe and New Zealand - who are both represented in the tourneys, should be kept up to date. So, I think it is six changes we need. [but I might be wrong there, depends which time zone the tourney follows - and I think the Europe ones follow USA, when you figure all that out, you can just make the appropriate tabs.]


It seems somewhere along the way we've forgotten that, but improved and simplified the accuracy by using local times for each tourney. While this keeps it as simple as possible for TD's, TourneyBot and the schedule maintainer, a reader is required to be familiar with converting to their local time from three listed time zones. There is nothing friendly or easy in that conversion. Functionally, especially for a newcomer, the text only schedule becomes almost unreadable without some serious head scratching.

You do have a way of putting things in a very demeaning way...I am not sure which Royal 'We' you mean...but none of 'US' have forgotten anything. We are there day in, day out answering questions and trying to get newbies to a position of understanding and involved in the tourneys regularly. It is easier, much easier, to have the schedule right...the clocks directly underneath that post will do the conversion of an apple to a banana, if you so desire. And dont forget the bot query...I dont know what you mean by 'text only'...but the schedule is now clearer than it ever was, more often right, and much easier to maintain. The user is required to do some work, but that was ALWAYS the case.

Really speaking, the only time someone needs to get 'head in a knot' about the schedule in any form, is if one is trying to cheat the TPR by attending every tournament. That still seems pretty unsporting to me, it skews figures amongst other things. However, I have said that enough times and you just want participation, no matter what. So, the tourney schedule offers a few tourneys per day to each time zone, attending the ones outside your timezone is, frankly, not the scheduler's problem, but the player's problem.


Again, thanks to all for continuing to maintain this calendar. Like all things at FIBS, much more work is involved than is apparent on the surface. It's wonderful to see we now have 31 regularly scheduled tourneys. That's up from only about a dozen two to three years ago.

Thank you for your kind appreciative words, from ALL.
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diane
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« Reply #103 on: October 06, 2013, 12:07:20 PM »

So far they all have..but the tampa 7/9 didn't this morning..I logged in at 10.32 - I have been specifically logging in during registration to check. Was it too close to opening of registration?
Sunday sessions also didn't notify me..I logged on at 7.40, 10 mins into rego.
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« Reply #104 on: October 06, 2013, 12:11:02 PM »

Since the Saturday Night Fever has not run in a long time it can be removed, it has not run in over a year, so clearly is not part of any 'regularly run' tourney

Humm no results for minimatches? It is likely an oversight by me!
I can fix that pretty easily!

Any progress on getting Saturday night fever to run on tourneybot?

I also can't seem to locate a thread for the Tampa fives at nine series...
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« Reply #105 on: October 06, 2013, 12:45:38 PM »

Never mind newbies who must be totally confused.  How about an oldie who can't get to a tourney in time!  I thought I had it all figured out when this morning I was an hour late to Sunday Session.   laugh  Btw, this revelation also revealed I had several other tourneys times wrong on my personal tourney schedule!

I asked a player how long ago the tourney started and he said 1 hour, 10 minutes ago.  this was just as the final finished.  So, this figures out to be 4 am my time, while worldclock says 1900 in Canberra (which is reference city diane told me to use) is 3 am my time.   blink  To further complicate things, the calender schedule says 6 am which is supposed to reflect eastern standard time USA, which is 5 am my time! 

Now, please tell me how the f*** anyone can figure out this system?Huh?Huh?Huh?Huh?Huh???   24

Seems Tourneybot is the only way we're going to be able to get an accurate tourney time, but this requires logging on to FIBS many times a day and night.  Perhaps Tourneybot can shout when the next tourney is scheduled just after the winner shout of each tourney?  I think that might be more efficient along with the announcements of when next tourney is when you log in, everyone should be notified.  The shout would get people who don't or do not yet subscribe to Tourneybot.

socksey


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diane
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« Reply #106 on: October 06, 2013, 01:24:29 PM »

I didn't tell you to use Canberra, that must have been someone else, if anything I would have said Melbourne if asked.

The time zone here is AEST (Australian Eastern Standard TIme, UTC +10) or AEDST (Australian Eastern Daylight Savings Time, UTC +11).

The change for daylight savings is not well publicised, for sure...I rocked up at 7.30, half expecting it to be an hour late  Wink
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Tom
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« Reply #107 on: October 06, 2013, 02:11:32 PM »

I think we're making a mountain out of a mole hill here.

The ONLY time it is a problem is when a player is trying to play a tournament that has it's time centered on a different continent.

I am pretty sure most people in the USA can deal with EST.
Can people in AUS and NZ deal with AEST?

Between the World Clock post by socksey and the time until next tourney from the bot it is pretty well covered.

Tom
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dorbel
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« Reply #108 on: October 06, 2013, 04:24:25 PM »

Erm, for Europeans EST and AEST are meaningless Tom. However, surely every fibster knows how his/her own time zone relates to UTC? If all else fails, it is Fibstime!
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Tom
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« Reply #109 on: October 06, 2013, 06:02:01 PM »

Ok dorbel you are right I did not mention Europeans.

My point is that is has been this way for a very long time and people do not seem to have problems finding the tourneys!

I think the WORLD CLOCK post helps anyone who is confused!

Tom
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dorbel
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« Reply #110 on: October 06, 2013, 06:53:38 PM »

Quote
My point is that is has been this way for a very long time and people do not seem to have problems finding the tourneys!

Perhaps you haven't read this thread Tom. In it, two TDs relate their difficulties logging in at the correct time! Perhaps it is time to try something different.
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Tom
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« Reply #111 on: October 06, 2013, 07:15:12 PM »

Perhaps you haven't read this thread Tom. In it, two TDs relate their difficulties logging in at the correct time! Perhaps it is time to try something different.


I just look at the registrations.

The only confusion I ever recall was the question of which weekend(s) and which way and getting the schedule updated properly.

Let me repeat that more clearly, The biggest confusion I recall was getting the Schedule updated properly!

This is why the last schedule I posted was worded so no edits were needed.

If someone wants to update the schedule to include UTC that is fine with me, but they will also need to maintain it!
I have not been able to update it for a while anyway...

Tom
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« Reply #112 on: October 06, 2013, 08:58:15 PM »

I think we're making a mountain out of a mole hill here.

Agreed  cool
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diane
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« Reply #113 on: October 07, 2013, 01:04:20 AM »

Agreed  cool

Me too, with the slight proviso that, the molehill is a molehill - it trips people up and causes annoyance everytime we fall over it..it has always been a molehill, but I really think it is slightly smaller than it was when we were constantly chaging things [Tom has got this to low maintenance and most often ever right]

If anyone knows a sure fire way to remove the molehill, Im all ears/ eyes.
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« Reply #114 on: October 07, 2013, 02:00:30 AM »

I didn't tell you to use Canberra, that must have been someone else, if anything I would have said Melbourne if asked.

The time zone here is AEST (Australian Eastern Standard TIme, UTC +10) or AEDST (Australian Eastern Daylight Savings Time, UTC +11).

The change for daylight savings is not well publicised, for sure...I rocked up at 7.30, half expecting it to be an hour late  Wink

I was pretty sure it was you, but maybe it was KMA.  Anyway, you have to put a city in to used worldclock, or UTC.  So, we're supposed to remember -11 UTC.......uh huh.  The point is it's too confusing and difficult the way it is for everyone except maybe you.  Yes, I remember you are smart and all the rest of us aren't.  Or, maybe it's just me.  Smiley

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diane
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« Reply #115 on: October 07, 2013, 02:54:45 AM »

So, we're supposed to remember -11 UTC.......uh huh.  The point is it's too confusing and difficult the way it is for everyone except maybe you.  Yes, I remember you are smart and all the rest of us aren't. 

You are supposed to remember -11 UTC in summer [your winter], and -10 UTC in winter [your summer]..easy... laugh laugh laugh

Yes, it is confusing, but my proposition is that it is confusing whatever you do. I have absolutely no idea what time work can wait/ bloody mary or 3/5s run, because I never bump into them. They are out of my time zone, and I have no need to know, so I dont.

When I was updating the schedule, 4 times per year, for tourneys I didnt know the time of, it was a freaking nightmare...

I agree in principle that stating UTC is good - I argued for it, as I have mentioned. When sixite writes the spreadsheet to make it easy, you can post the updates 4 times yearly and everything will be super easy.

Until then, it wont be so easy if - and this is the big IF, you insist on playing tourneys out of your time zone. If you play the ones that are in your time zone, they are easy to find, and if you are up regurlarly at odd hours, you will 'bump into them'. If you arent, then well, the problem is yours, not the schedulers.

As for smart, yes, I am very smart - I am not gonna beat around that one, and it is still a nightmare trying to make this right, let alone easy. I will settle for right and not so easy.

It is very easy to sit and say 'it should be like this', and then sit back and wait for someone to make it so. I am not going to 'make it so', because it is too hard for me, even thugh I am smart - if anyone knows an easier way, then I fully support that.
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« Reply #116 on: October 07, 2013, 04:03:46 AM »

Oh, and I found another error.  On Sundays, it should read Tampa 5's at 9 instead of Tampa 7's at 9.   dry  I noticed it when I was playing that tourney tonight!   laugh  I corrected my new personal schedule that I'm apparently still working on.   wacko  I'd change it myself, but I well remember sixtie saying nobody messes with the schedule except  him!  I'm happy to leave it at that, and sit back and critique.  Wink  You see, in another life, I was a perfectionist, often burning myself out, while in this life, it is my purpose to make things easier on myself.  Smiley

Seriously, Tom, and whomever, UTC is the world standard and we really should use it. 

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« Reply #117 on: October 07, 2013, 05:45:49 AM »

Tampa is 7/9 on Saturdays and Sundays, and is 5/7 for the other five days of the week, including today, which is Monday.  Therefore Sunday's Tampa is correctly labelled, as is today's one.

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« Reply #118 on: October 07, 2013, 06:08:41 AM »

simples!
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« Reply #119 on: October 07, 2013, 08:19:01 AM »

Is it too radical to suggest that tournaments should be fixed to a UTC time for 12 months of the year? This would mean that Thursday 3/5 (for example) @ 1600UTC would be for most Euros 1800 in the summer and 1700 in the winter, for New Yorkers 1200 summer, 1100 winter and so on. I can see that this would make the tournament less convenient for some players for part of the year, but of course an equal number of players would find it more convenient. As an example, I can't play in KKK tournaments at their present time, but I could at least play for part of the year if they were fixed to a UTC slot.
I suspect that most players could manage both local time slots. It may also be that some would draw bigger crowds if shifted by an hour. Anyway, the schedule would become simplicity itself, with one time on it that never needs revision.
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