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Offline tryout

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« on: March 19, 2004, 09:45:41 PM »
Hi everybody,

Jinnate and I just had a lengthy discussion about the rights and wrongs of round messaging players instead of reverting to shouts. Since I'm lazy and feel that we touched most angles of our points of view I'll just paste the chat.

Comments welcome!

jinnate says: *** It's Tourney Time! starts in 15 mins! 3 pt matches, 5 pt finals! TELL TOURNEYBOT REGISTER 238 to enter! ***
You tell jinnate: Hi, please don't round message for the tourney. If I want to see it then I read the shouts.
jinnate says: thanks, i'll try to remember.
jinnate says: if it happens again, just remind me.
You tell jinnate: Well, maybe you should leave it alltogether and just use shouts, that's what they are for.
jinnate says: lots of poeple don't read shouts and don't know when the tourney's on.
jinnate says: matt's working on a thing where players can register with tourneybot so tourneybot will send them 'tells'
jinnate says: until then, i've been doing it manually.
You tell jinnate: I know and understand that you want to advertise, but imho that's no excuse to abuse private messages
jinnate says: most people want me to send tells.
You tell jinnate: hmm
jinnate says: you're only #2 to complain
You tell jinnate: it's simply against what messages and shouts are for
jinnate says: you're saying that sending tells about tourneys is against what msgs and shouts are for.
jinnate says: >
jinnate says: ?
You tell jinnate: or rather there's a reason why this is separate
jinnate says: you're saying that shouts, msgs and tells are separate for a reason.
You tell jinnate: one could wish to have kind of "rooms" for shouting, but we don't unfortuntely
You tell jinnate: yes, sure
jinnate says: and you're saying we don't have rooms for shouting.
You tell jinnate: will you repeat everything I'm writing?
jinnate says: yes. until i get a clearer picture of what you're trying to convey, yes.
jinnate says: because right now, people enjoy that i send them tells.
jinnate says: and the majority do.
You tell jinnate: are you familiar with other chats? there's the notion of separtae "rooms"
jinnate says: so when you say that this isn't what shouts & tells were meant for, i think, what the f is he talking about?
You tell jinnate: but here on fibs we just have one public room, that all topics and users have to share
You tell jinnate: I'm awfully sorry that I phrased wronly in the first place
jinnate says: which is why i repeat.
jinnate says: pls expand/rephrase as you like.
You tell jinnate: well, did you understand / know my explaination about "rooms" in chats?
jinnate says: yes.
jinnate says: i have seen other sites where people chat in different rooms.
You tell jinnate: exactly, but unfortunately we don't have this here
You tell jinnate: and to explain the difference between tell and shout: if you "tell" everybody anyway, then you should better use shout, because that's exactly intended for this
jinnate says: i don't tell everybody.
jinnate says: and even if i did, everybody doesn't read shouts.
jinnate says: a lot of people keep shouts off.
jinnate says: oh wait. i think i could have let you finish
You tell jinnate: from my perception I think you do, at least I got notices from other players too
jinnate says: forget i said that, pls continue.
You tell jinnate: ...you tell at least quite a lot of people
You tell jinnate: so that's why I'm saying shouts are the way to go
jinnate says: (i send notices to players who aren't playing.)
You tell jinnate: that makes no sense to me
jinnate says: okay, you're saying that shouts are for telling everybody, or the majority of players.
You tell jinnate: yes
jinnate says: anything else?
jinnate says: (have you completed your thought?)
You tell jinnate: I thought I already wrote it
jinnate says: so, at fibs, a large number of people do not read shouts and/or have them turned off completely. which is why a lot of players are thankful to get tellls.
jinnate says: in sending tells, i am reaching the majority of players.
jinnate says: (clarification, i send tells to non-ready players and ready players not in a game at the moment.)
You tell jinnate: yes, of course, if they really want to, but you also reach all people by phone and still are not allowed to call everybody and advertise this way
jinnate says: so you're saying that i can also reach all people by phone and am still not allowed to call everybody and advertise this way.
You tell jinnate: please will you stop this repeating
You tell jinnate: if you dodn't understand try to make up a constructive question
jinnate says: i'd like you to expand these thoughts without rebutting, or ... dismissing.
jinnate says: would you like to give me an example of what you consider a constructive ?
You tell jinnate: explaining what exactly you don't understand
jinnate says: what the f phones have to do with our current convo. what the f you don't get about a lot of players not listening to shouts. and so forth.
jinnate says: i guess i don't understand what isn't clear to you about my explanation for sending tells.
You tell jinnate: I do understand your motivation, but that's no excuse for using tells in place of shouts
You tell jinnate: I tried to explain that with the phone analogy
You tell jinnate: it's called spamming
jinnate says: i am tempted to repeat. ...why don't you give me an example of a constructive question.
You tell jinnate: that's quite difficult because I don't know what you don't understand
jinnate says: i understand you think shouts are for reaching the majority. i understand that you understand the majority are reached, in this case, by tells and that the majority are happy with that.
jinnate says: and yet, some part of this isn't sitting well with you, because otherwise, the discussion would have ended by now with "oh i see, just pls don't tell me in the future"
You tell jinnate: the point is, are you sure that every single player is happy with it?
jinnate says: no. i would imagine every player isn't
jinnate says: you aren't
jinnate says: souptree isn't
You tell jinnate: not complaining doesn't mean that they agree
jinnate says: so i have you 2 on my list not to send tells to.
jinnate says: i know.
You tell jinnate: yes, 2 that said something
jinnate says: when a lot of them agree  
jinnate says: i take that into account as well.
jinnate says: if 2 complained and 20 had not said thank you, then i would have probably found another way.
jinnate says: but 20 said thank you and then 2 complained.
jinnate says: so
You tell jinnate: the order doesn't realy matter, does it?
jinnate says: i have no constructive question. may i repeat?
You tell jinnate: obviously you remain with your opinion, well so do I of course
jinnate says: wait.
jinnate says: i don't understnad your opinion.
jinnate says: in seeking to understand your opinion, i am finding ... what seems to be illogic.
You tell jinnate: in other areas such as email, phone or fax advertisements there are even laws for this... for a reason
jinnate says: in repeating to get you to expand your thoughts/feelings/explanations, you are saying, please, no thank you.
You tell jinnate: for myself I'm saying this, exactly
jinnate says: so i feel at a loss to understand your position.
You tell jinnate: but I'm also trying to advise you that from experience of other businesses this is no good practice
jinnate says: but the majority of fibsters are happy with the tells.
jinnate says: overwhelming majority
You tell jinnate: let's hope you're right
jinnate says: y don't u hope i'm right.
jinnate says: i'll just keep reading the thank you tells from players.
You tell jinnate: however there's still the point that an opt-in is better than an opt-out system
jinnate says: and remember, as much as possible, not to send you & souptree tells
jinnate says: and anyone else who asks.
jinnate says: yes, i agree,
You tell jinnate: an opt-in system would be that you only send tells to those that explicitly asked you to do so
jinnate says: so does matt
jinnate says: which is why he's working on an opt-in system
jinnate says: until that system is in place,
jinnate says: i'm wroking with what i got.
jinnate says: which, except for you & souptree,
jinnate says: seems to be working for players
You tell jinnate: no question it works from your point of view
jinnate says: and there's no question it doesn't work from your point of view.
jinnate says: when you'd like to share that point of view with me, i'll be happy to hear it.
You tell jinnate: but other TDs, e.g. myself included, don't go around but only use shouts
jinnate says: yes, i know.
jinnate says: jonjon & madmatt have tried it.
jinnate says: and maybe kari
jinnate says: and humaniam
You tell jinnate: I'll ask kari next time
jinnate says: do that.
You tell jinnate: ah yes, there was another point: sending tells to non-ready and not playing players doesn't make sense
You tell jinnate: why do you think non-ready players are not ready?
You tell jinnate: and why would you want to exclude those that are currently playing?
You tell jinnate: they might just finish in time for the tourney
You tell jinnate: or even interrupt their match
jinnate says: i neglect to send tells to players in a match because it can interrupt their concentration on the match, in addition to which, they may not be ready for the tourney when it occurs. if they become avail later, then i send a tell to them. i have often been not-ready and still avail for play. and a lot of my tourney players come from the nonready states.
jinnate says: sending to ready, non-playing fibsters is obvious, i think.
You tell jinnate: yes
You tell jinnate: although I'm not saying that it's wanted or you should use tell for that
You tell jinnate: well, the solution is very simple: shouts solve this all, everybody who wants reads them, those who don't just don't, simple
jinnate says: your simple solution sounds like it simply works for you.
You tell jinnate: no obtrusive things...
You tell jinnate: why should anybody who is interested in joining a tourney not be able to read shouts?
jinnate says: oooh.
jinnate says: you haven't been reading fibsboard
jinnate says: there's been a whole forum topic going on
jinnate says: check out community vs. snakepit on fibsboard
jinnate says: not in the tourneybot forum, but the other area.
You tell jinnate: do you have a link for easier finding?
jinnate says: ummmm.
jinnate says: hold on.
You tell jinnate: ok
jinnate says: http://www.fibsboard.com/index.php?showtopic=209&hl=
You tell jinnate: ok, I'll have a look...
You tell jinnate: oops, that's long, I just browsed it and didn't really find reasons pro tells
jinnate says: but many con shouts
You tell jinnate: yes, but...
You tell jinnate: if you mark TB messages or in general ads in a special way people are able to spot only those
You tell jinnate: e.g. *** hey people, come and join ***
jinnate says: try, do you feel you're reaching?
jinnate says: cuz i feel you're reaching
jinnate says: i put out shouts in that special
jinnate says: way
jinnate says: let me say again
jinnate says: and based on what you just read
jinnate says: see this is why i repeat you
jinnate says: because otherwise i repeat myself
jinnate says: if i repeat you, then you expand and dvelop your arguments
jinnate says: coming up with something new
jinnate says: otherwise, it's just a back n foth
jinnate says: and no new ground is covered
jinnate says: or uncovered
jinnate says: and i just get sick of the whole f'ing discussion
jinnate says: because it's obvious that many people like tells, don't listen to shouts
jinnate says: okay
jinnate says: i cna't repeat you
jinnate says: so i will say, tryout,
jinnate says: please bring this up in tourneybot forum
jinnate says: if you feel safe enuf to develop
jinnate says: your thoughts there
jinnate says: then maybe we can cover some new ground
jinnate says: instead of hashing the same ol grist for the mill
jinnate says: and maybe even if you don't s
jinnate says: someone else will.
You tell jinnate: hmm, what about putting our discussion right up there?
jinnate says: yes. good.
You tell jinnate: it's quite a bit easier, because I think we both have stated our opinions in length
jinnate says: yes
You tell jinnate: ok, let's see what responses we'll get
 
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« on: March 19, 2004, 09:45:41 PM »

Offline Kari_Grandi

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« Reply #1 on: March 20, 2004, 12:37:21 AM »
You tell jinnate: but other TDs, e.g. myself included, don't go around but only use shouts
jinnate says: yes, i know.
jinnate says: jonjon & madmatt have tried it.
jinnate says: and maybe kari
jinnate says: and humaniam
You tell jinnate: I'll ask kari next time
jinnate says: do that.
------------------------

Most of the people here knows, how I advertise my tourneys. I never use tells,  or shout to somebody directly unless they are my friends!
IMO, tourneys should only be advertised in shouts and not in private messages.

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« Reply #1 on: March 20, 2004, 12:37:21 AM »

JonJon

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« Reply #2 on: March 20, 2004, 03:16:55 AM »
I agree that mass 'telling' may not be the way to go. I will however use tell to tell people I know want to hear about tourneys.

It does seem to me that that conversation was pretty long for someone who didn't want their privacy invaded.

JJ

Offline diane

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« Reply #3 on: March 20, 2004, 01:26:04 PM »
I know what jinnate is trying to do here - and i do something similar.  If I i see someone on, who hasnt registered for a tourney, and i know they like to play - i send a short tell to say there is a tourney signing up if they are interested - and leave it at that.  Many times i have had them reply that they had the shouts off - and didnt see it.
I do hope those players dont feel 'spammed' - certainly no one has ever seemed miffed!
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« Reply #3 on: March 20, 2004, 01:26:04 PM »

jinnate

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« Reply #4 on: March 20, 2004, 07:52:36 PM »
kari, then i had it wrong. when i helped mod a tourney and sent out tells, i remembered you being poisitive about the tells. i did say 'maybe kari' because i didn't know if you decided to adopt using tells for your tourney.
« Last Edit: March 20, 2004, 08:06:58 PM by jinnate »

Offline JLee

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« Reply #5 on: March 21, 2004, 01:01:50 PM »
jinnate says: and yet, some part of this isn't sitting well with you, because otherwise, the discussion would have ended by now with "oh i see, just pls don't tell me in the future"

This would have been best.

JLee

Offline JLee

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« Reply #6 on: March 21, 2004, 01:02:48 PM »
It does seem to me that that conversation was pretty long for someone who didn't want their privacy invaded.

Ain't that the truth.

JLee

Offline tryout

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« Reply #7 on: March 22, 2004, 06:01:34 PM »
Quote
It does seem to me that that conversation was pretty long for someone who didn't want their privacy invaded.
I don't mind a private conversation at all. It was the mass "tell"ing that I don't approve of.  And I'm not just guessing that it was mass "tell"ing, since the above wasn't the first occasion and I also got astonished comments from friends when they got the same tells the first time.
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« Reply #7 on: March 22, 2004, 06:01:34 PM »

Offline tryout

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« Reply #8 on: March 22, 2004, 06:26:21 PM »
Quote
jinnate says: and yet, some part of this isn't sitting well with you, because otherwise, the discussion would have ended by now with "oh i see, just pls don't tell me in the future"

This would have been best.
Maybe for you it would be best. Did it ever occur to you that I might not only be thinking about me alone? Usually only a small number of people actually say something and there are a whole lot more that don't like it but are too lazy or shy to voice their opinion.

Why am I and likely others forced to an opt-out system? The non-(yet)-existance of an automatic opt-in is no excuse.
Why is spamming in all other areas frowned upon?
Why would it be better to suppose that I'm the only one minding this if experience shows that spamming is not accepted by quite some people?
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« Reply #9 on: March 22, 2004, 07:36:29 PM »
I don't really think this sort of behavior falls in to the category of spamming. I would more likely call it falling in to the category of being invited to participate in an aspect of fibs you may or may not have known about and may have needed a little nudge to get started in.

JJ

jinnate

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« Reply #10 on: March 23, 2004, 02:36:25 AM »
Quote
Maybe for you it would be best. Did it ever occur to you that I might not only be thinking about me alone? Usually only a small number of people actually say something and there are a whole lot more that don't like it but are too lazy or shy to voice their opinion.

Why am I and likely others forced to an opt-out system? The non-(yet)-existance of an automatic opt-in is no excuse.
Why is spamming in all other areas frowned upon?
Why would it be better to suppose that I'm the only one minding this if experience shows that spamming is not accepted by quite some people?
when i sent tells the first time, i got back at least 5 (and probably more) responses from people who didn't even know a tourney was going on and wanted to know more. and this was after 3 shouts had gone out for the tourney. i realized people weren't paying attention to shouts. i didn't even get a chance to send tells to everyone before i was telling people how to register. (sometime after this, the community vs. snakepit topic opened up in fibsboard and i got a better idea why many weren't listening to shouts.)

since then, i only recently have been getting "pls don't tell me about tourneys." and that was from souptree and tryout. the vast majority has been positive. not just one or two. not just 5 or 10. had players responded with a "please leave me alone you spamming hag," we wouldn't be having this discussion because i would have dropped the idea of telling.

to use an opt-in system is to go & chat with each player, and say, hey do you want me to let you know about upcoming tourneys via tell and then add that player's name to a list. as a td who has to do a lot of typing, i'm looking for the most efficient way to do things. continuously going over the fibs player list to find who i haven't talked to yet and who i haven't signed up yet is a lot of work. it's work i'm not opposed to doing. it is work i'm opposed to doing if it seems to be the less expedient.

at the moment, the list i have of players who do not want to be told is 3. the vast majority want to be told. i'll grant this may solely be due to the feedback i'm getting. maybe there are gads of players out there simply steaming that i am sending out tells. but until they say something, all i have to go on is the positive reaction i'm getting. 3 players saying they're speaking for lots of others may be true, but until lots of others tell me that's the case, all i have to go on is you saying that it's so. so, anyone reading this who really hates getting tells, pls tell me. tell fibsboard. email me. whatever. the minute i get an indication that's not the case is the minute i change how i announce tourneys. but as long as the response is that it's a good thing, all i have to go on is that it's a good thing.

i'd also hold the reverse is true. if lots are positive about using tell to announce tourneys, then there may be a greater number happy about it not saying anything.

i understand this is your concern. i don't know if your concern is everyone's concern. i also don't know if your concern is a majority concern.

Offline diane

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« Reply #11 on: March 23, 2004, 12:43:04 PM »
Following a brief amount of tourney running at the weekend - I now have a growing list of people who want to be 'told' about tourneys.  That is using tell as opposed to shouts.  For the reasons Jinnate mentions - many people turn shouts off - and 3d fibs (according to aslengyel) wont actually let you have shouts and something else on at the same time - so he missed one, and was most miffed - cos he had the other thing on (whatever it was).
So - it seems some sorting out is in order - how can we as TDs keep a record of who wants tells - and who wants shouts.  It is much easier for me to just shout - but I also want to be inclusive with my tourneys - rather than exclusive.
I definately wont 'tell' tryout  :)  But I would like to be able to start a formal list now of those who want telling - it ought to be possible to do this long hand until it is incorporated into tourneybot.
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« Reply #11 on: March 23, 2004, 12:43:04 PM »

jinnate

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« Reply #12 on: March 23, 2004, 07:17:17 PM »
Quote
how can we as TDs keep a record of who wants tells - and who wants shouts.

anticipating great hordes of players coming down from the mountain top with torches saying "stop the tells" i've been thinking about other ways of opt-in/opt-out. the only thing i've been able to come up with is a webpage. i was envisioning (should many players not want to be told) a list of players who want to be told. players who want to be added to the list could send a message to any td, who could update the list. or something like that.

so far, the list remains at 3 who don't want to be told. if the list stays pretty small, maybe we could just have a webpage of players who aren't interested in tell announcements.

wait. i'm forgetting that some td's don't want to send unrequested tells. so, back to the first idea, skip the opt-out page.
« Last Edit: March 23, 2004, 07:50:40 PM by jinnate »

Offline webrunner

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« Reply #13 on: March 23, 2004, 07:30:35 PM »
Quote
For the reasons Jinnate mentions - many people turn shouts off - and 3d fibs (according to aslengyel) wont actually let you have shouts and something else on at the same time - so he missed one, and was most miffed - cos he had the other thing on (whatever it was).
Actually it IS possible to have shouts and something else at the same time in 3Dfibs. I know.. a little off topic but i thought i'd mention it anyway.

It's in Options > Show shouts in Chat window


 
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Offline diane

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« Reply #14 on: March 23, 2004, 11:44:38 PM »
Thanks Webrunner - i'll pass that on right away  :)  
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Offline tryout

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« Reply #15 on: March 24, 2004, 04:01:03 PM »
Quote
I don't really think this sort of behavior falls in to the category of spamming. I would more likely call it falling in to the category of being invited to participate in an aspect of fibs you may or may not have known about and may have needed a little nudge to get started in.
Here is the official definition of spam taken from http://mail-abuse.org/standard.html :

STANDARD:

An electronic message is "spam" IF: (1) the recipient's personal identity and context are irrelevant because the message is equally applicable to many other potential recipients; AND (2) the recipient has not verifiably granted deliberate, explicit, and still-revocable permission for it to be sent; AND (3) the transmission and reception of the message appears to the recipient to give a disproportionate benefit to the sender.

DISCUSSION:

(i) Trivial or mechanised personalization such as "Dear Mr. Jones, we see that you are the holder of the JONES.COM domain" does not make the personal identity of the recipient relevant in any way.

(ii) Failing to click the "do not send me marketing literature by e-mail" button in a web sign-up form does not convey explicit permission. Only when the default result is "no followup e-mail" AND the inbox impact is clearly stated before any action which changes this result, can permission of this kind be conveyed.

(iii) The appearance of disproportionate benefit to the sender, and the relevancy of the recipient's specific personal identity, are authoritatively determined by the recipient, and is not subject to argument or reinterpretation by the sender.

(iv) Non-personal e-mail always places a disproportionate cost burden on the recipient, and is considered to disproportionately benefit the sender unless it was verifiably solicited or by the recipient's willing exception.

(v) A message need not be offensive or commercial in order to fit the definition of "spam." Content is irrelevent except to the extent necessary to determine personal applicability, consent, and benefit.


Obviously the criteria for spam are met in all points to (almost) 100%. Only point (3) might be subject to discussion. Of course I understand perfectly - like already stated - the motivation for advertising for the tourneys. After all providing the tournaments is a good thing. But that's not the point. It still does not make the means appropriate.  --  And then there's also point (iii) above.
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« Reply #15 on: March 24, 2004, 04:01:03 PM »

Offline tryout

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« Reply #16 on: March 24, 2004, 05:54:51 PM »
Quote
to use an opt-in system is to go & chat with each player, and say, hey do you want me to let you know about upcoming tourneys via tell and then add that player's name to a list.
No. Though to a lesser extend, this would be again spamming. See my other post for why and the definition of spam.

Quote
as a td who has to do a lot of typing, i'm looking for the most efficient way to do things. continuously going over the fibs player list to find who i haven't talked to yet and who i haven't signed up yet is a lot of work. it's work i'm not opposed to doing. it is work i'm opposed to doing if it seems to be the less expedient.
Who says you have to and can use the most efficient way for you? E.g. e-mail spamming is definitely very efficient for the spammer.
The most efficient way on FIBS would certainly be using shouts. There you only have to type it once. Disregarding the topic "Community or snakepit?" people interested in tournaments should just have an eye on shouts. If they don't then that's simply their fault. And even regarding the discussion of wanting to watch shouts or not, I think since (mostly) all tourney announcements are specially marked (usually by asterisks) it ought to be possible to catch them with half an eye and without actually reading the trash.

Quote
at the moment, the list i have of players who do not want to be told is 3. the vast majority want to be told. i'll grant this may solely be due to the feedback i'm getting. maybe there are gads of players out there simply steaming that i am sending out tells. but until they say something, all i have to go on is the positive reaction i'm getting. 3 players saying they're speaking for lots of others may be true, but until lots of others tell me that's the case, all i have to go on is you saying that it's so. so, anyone reading this who really hates getting tells, pls tell me. tell fibsboard. email me. whatever. the minute i get an indication that's not the case is the minute i change how i announce tourneys. but as long as the response is that it's a good thing, all i have to go on is that it's a good thing.
With this you are simply imposing an opt-out system because you yourself think it's fine.
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Offline tryout

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« Reply #17 on: March 24, 2004, 06:02:43 PM »
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So - it seems some sorting out is in order - how can we as TDs keep a record of who wants tells - and who wants shouts.  It is much easier for me to just shout - but I also want to be inclusive with my tourneys - rather than exclusive.
I definately wont 'tell' tryout  :)  But I would like to be able to start a formal list now of those who want telling - it ought to be possible to do this long hand until it is incorporated into tourneybot.
That's the good way to go.  :)

As a suggestion: maybe start a new topic here on fibsboard where everybody who wants to receive personal notification can add themselves. Or a webpage for the same purpose, but there it's a bit tricky with the authentication (which comes for free here).
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« Reply #18 on: March 25, 2004, 09:08:27 PM »
:) Well, Diane and jinnate, I appreciate the way you two advertise tourneys. Sometimes I`m very focused on kibitz, so a "tell" is very welcome! Other times, shouts are too trashy to watch, so a "tell" comes in handy. I cannot take "tell"s as spam because they are coming from friens! Ditto!
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« Reply #19 on: March 27, 2004, 04:09:12 AM »
tryout, since you've posted this topic, i have heard from one player saying pls don't tell me about tourneys. which brings my list to a total of 3.

you can say all you want that people should pay attention to shouts. they don't. you can say all you want about spam definitions. i don't see it as spam if 3 people want out. you can say all you want about opt-in, etc. until i get a clear response that a significant minority would like not to receive tells, i will continue to employ an opt-out method until tourneybot has an announcement feature built in.

your reality of the situation (i don't like tells, therefore jinnate should stop sending them) doesn't seem to jibe with the fibs reality of lots of players not reading shouts and preferring tells.

i'll say again that if you are indeed conversing with lots of players who really are upset with the tells, to please let them know to post or email or message me at fibs, anything so that i know there are more than 3 of you out there.
« Last Edit: March 27, 2004, 04:38:55 AM by jinnate »

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« Reply #20 on: March 27, 2004, 06:49:42 PM »
nevermind. i think i get it. there are only a handful of you opposed to tells. and you decided to say something after arming yourself with the "it's spam!" argument. which is why you didn't want me to repeat. repeating means you dig deeper and doing so would mean you leave the "it's spam!" for "i find it really annoying and terribly inconsiderate". which would bring us to me not 'tell'ing you instead of your goal of me not 'tell'ing anyone.

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« Reply #21 on: September 19, 2006, 07:52:34 PM »
 :mellow:

I miss you Jinn.
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