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New TB Features in the works

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Offline Tom

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New TB Features in the works
« on: July 26, 2007, 03:19:27 AM »
(That is assuming MadMatt likes my coding style  :wacko: )

I'm working on a set of commands to allow TourneyBot to create and start tourneys automatically.
(See TDBot thread in http://www.fibsboard.com/other-bots-tech-stuff-b3.0/ for background)

I have commands to create/examine/modify the schedule.

I also have the start of a procedure to check the schedule and create the tourneys as defined.

So I am wondering how we want the bot to act.

My thoughts so far

1) 30 min before scheduled start time create the tourney
2) Announce the tourney every 5 mins (via Shout? Subscribed Tells? Which is best?)
3) After the scheduled start time and there are minplayers start the T (does tourneybot do this already)
4) later I want to also add clocking support for when players get booted etc

what else can we add to more automate the running of tourneys?

tom

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New TB Features in the works
« on: July 26, 2007, 03:19:27 AM »

Offline socksey

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Re: New TB Features in the works
« Reply #1 on: July 26, 2007, 07:35:36 AM »
Quote
2) Announce the tourney every 5 mins (via Shout? Subscribed Tells? Which is best?)

No, TB does not start tourney automatically.

Quote
what else can we add to more automate the running of tourneys?

You might consider limitations, i.e., possitive reputation, minimum experience, as I do for Mini-Matches.  My limits are 0 or better reputation and 400 experience minimum.  This has seemed to eliminate most problems in my tournaments.   :)

I like the clocking support you plan to implement.  We often experience delays when players don't report the absence or the player playing another match not in the tournament.  I'm wondering how your TB will know which player is indisposed.   :unsure:

socksey



"Learning is acquired by reading books; but the much more necessary learning, the knowledge of the world, is only to be acquired by reading man, and studying all the various editions of them." - Philip Dormer Stanhope, statesman and writer (1694-1773)

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Re: New TB Features in the works
« Reply #1 on: July 26, 2007, 07:35:36 AM »

Offline Tom

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Re: New TB Features in the works
« Reply #2 on: July 26, 2007, 12:31:10 PM »
No, TB does not start tourney automatically.

You might consider limitations, i.e., possitive reputation, minimum experience, as I do for Mini-Matches.  My limits are 0 or better reputation and 400 experience minimum.  This has seemed to eliminate most problems in my tournaments.   :)

I like the clocking support you plan to implement.  We often experience delays when players don't report the absence or the player playing another match not in the tournament.  I'm wondering how your TB will know which player is indisposed.   :unsure:

socksey

Actually I use the Create Tourney commands as they now are and you can take a tourney that is in the newly Created state and save it into the schedule, so all existing and future tourney options will be supported.

In the bot I wrote for a yahoo bg league she checks proper tables,  watches idle time and leaving the room etc to maintain the clocks automatically.
Which results in players not needing to worry about the clocks... they need to just play...
and there is no emotion involved in enforcing clocks... to the bot 15 mins is 15 mins for all...

tom

Offline socksey

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Re: New TB Features in the works
« Reply #3 on: July 26, 2007, 02:55:28 PM »
I understand all that, but what I'm asking is, if player A should be playing B, but player B is playing player C, player B is not idle but playing someone he shouldn't be playing, while player A is idle and can't play player B,  does TB know the proper player to forfeit?    :wacko:

socksey



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Re: New TB Features in the works
« Reply #3 on: July 26, 2007, 02:55:28 PM »

Offline Tom

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Re: New TB Features in the works
« Reply #4 on: July 26, 2007, 04:18:23 PM »
I understand all that, but what I'm asking is, if player A should be playing B, but player B is playing player C, player B is not idle but playing someone he shouldn't be playing, while player A is idle and can't play player B,  does TB know the proper player to forfeit?    :wacko:

socksey

Yes we could look at those issues.

The forefit is not immediate; they get put on clock and that event gets announced (tells I guess)
In the other bot I also have commands for players to tell her to put players on clock or to tell her you are back

Offline Gusssss

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Re: New TB Features in the works
« Reply #5 on: July 28, 2007, 06:28:43 PM »
I understand all that, but what I'm asking is, if player A should be playing B, but player B is playing player C, player B is not idle but playing someone he shouldn't be playing, while player A is idle and can't play player B,  does TB know the proper player to forfeit?    :wacko:

And I will have T while I'm waiting :wacko: :laugh: :blink:

Offline Tom

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Re: New TB Features in the works
« Reply #6 on: August 16, 2007, 12:30:41 PM »
Ok TDs what is the proper way to SPAM you T's?

Shouts every 3 mins?
Subscribed Tells every 3 mins?
Both?

Then once the start time arrives will the tourneybot code handle announcing the pairs as people advance?

ie. once the tourney is started what else does a TD need to do besides handle player issues?
(Slow play, droppers, etc)

Tom

Offline Tom

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Re: New TB Features in the works
« Reply #7 on: August 17, 2007, 02:08:28 PM »
Ok!

From 30 mins before the tourney is going to start the bot will announce the tourney every 3 mins with:

 *** TomTest (Tourney #51) will start at 12:45  Type 'tell tdbot tourney 51' for details. Register with 'tell tdbot register 51'. ***

When 12:45 arrives it will attempt to start it and report status. In my case I was the only one in so I got:

tdbot *** TomTest (Tourney #51) starting now!
tdbot *** TomTest (Tourney #51) Needs More Players! Register with 'tell tdbot register 51'. ***

It will do that once a min for 5 mins and then give up with

tdbot *** TomTest (Tourney #51) starting now!
tdbot *** TomTest (Tourney #51) Is CANCELLED not enough players!  ***

If it succeeds it will act as if a human TD started the tourney

At this point I do not have any code for reporting results when the tourney finishes or any clocking support.

I may mess around a little over the weekend fixing (and breaking) things and hopefully will have a tourney Tuesday at 16:00
Signups will start at 15:30 (Is 30 mins too long for signups?)

Oh yes. It will start at 16:00 Sharp! (Assuming there are enough players)

To keep it simple I'll make it a 3pt matches and 3pt finals

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Re: New TB Features in the works
« Reply #7 on: August 17, 2007, 02:08:28 PM »

Offline Tom

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Re: New TB Features in the works
« Reply #8 on: August 19, 2007, 02:24:33 PM »
Well TDBOT ran it's first tourney today at 1200UTC

I found one minor bug which I fixed and will test later.

tdbot Standings for "Morning Madness" (Tourney #53):
tdbot 1. manxcat 2. tam 3. KDP donzaemon 5. myshlev socksey
tdbot Done listing Tourney #53 standings.

manxcat won his first tourney

Offline socksey

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Re: New TB Features in the works
« Reply #9 on: August 19, 2007, 09:52:11 PM »
Purrrrrrrrrrrrkitty is a she.  ;)

socksey




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Offline Tom

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Re: New TB Features in the works
« Reply #10 on: August 30, 2007, 04:05:41 PM »
Here is an update.

I have also added a MATCHREPORT command to allow the moderator to specify an email address to send a tourney report to once the tourney is done.
(which works now)

It also has options for a URL to post match results to. (just the command not implemented yet)

The other area I need to work on is a player clock so if you go offline or don't start playing your opponent will be advanced.

I am not sure which to start first and when I have enough done to be useful.

For example right now the changes I have can help run a tourney that has a TD hanging around.
It will Create, SPAM and start the tourney as well as email the TD results, so they just need to be around
to deal with player issues...

I have been thinking about running a few automatic tourneys. The best time for me is Monday-Thursday at 1600 UTC
because that is my lunch hour and I can pay attention to it most of the time.

The only problem is I one have 1 hr... I would need someone else who could help past 1700 if needed.
Mostly to handle any player problems (advancing players etc)

tom

Offline socksey

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Re: New TB Features in the works
« Reply #11 on: August 31, 2007, 05:59:35 AM »
I can probably do this, but will need orientation on new bot.   :)  All sounds great!  Let me know when you are ready to start.

socksey



"I have traveled the length and breadth of this country and talked with the best people, and I can assure you that data processing is a fad that won't last out the year." -- The editor in charge of business books for Prentice Hall, 1957

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Re: New TB Features in the works
« Reply #11 on: August 31, 2007, 05:59:35 AM »

Offline Tom

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Re: New TB Features in the works
« Reply #12 on: August 31, 2007, 11:06:11 AM »
I can probably do this, but will need orientation on new bot.   :)  All sounds great!  Let me know when you are ready to start.

That is the beauty of the way I implemented these things, once the tourney is running *nothing* is different from before!

So far all my commands deal with creating and spamming a tourney and nothing has changed while the tourney is running.

I am going to set up some web pages for tourney results; because what fun are T's if you can't fixate over some silly stats?

tom

Offline Tom

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Re: New TB Features in the works
« Reply #13 on: September 08, 2007, 10:40:01 PM »
Well the new code was running as TDBOT and ran the mini-matches today.

Fixed two bugs... maybe the next run will be error free :)

Tom

Offline socksey

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Re: New TB Features in the works
« Reply #14 on: September 12, 2007, 01:53:06 AM »
Something else I thought about.........in Mini-Matches, players who win a forfeit do not get points for that win unless they win 1st or 2nd place which are fixed points depending on number of players in the tourney.  Will the bot be programmed to reflect these differences?

socksey



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Offline Tom

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Re: New TB Features in the works
« Reply #15 on: September 12, 2007, 11:42:47 AM »
Something else I thought about.........in Mini-Matches, players who win a forfeit do not get points for that win unless they win 1st or 2nd place which are fixed points depending on number of players in the tourney.  Will the bot be programmed to reflect these differences?

socksey

Anybody who doesn't know what soap tastes like never washed a dog. -Franklin P. Jones


In the email it will list the results of each round and you can figure it our from there.

tam: standings 53
tdbot: Standings for ""Mini-Matches" tournament (all 2-pt matches)" (Tourney #53):
tdbot: 1. Gusssss 2. rossa 3. sunray kid_pantyhose 5. insbordnat bonnita teyakis moyang 9. don Feklhr tam myshlev
tdbot: Done listing Tourney #53 standings.
tam: round 1 tourney 53
tdbot: Listing Tourney #53 Round 1 (match length: 2):
tdbot: T53R1M1 (2-pt): sunray (1659) def. don (1832) 6-0
tdbot: T53R1M2 (2-pt): moyang (1585) def. Feklhr (1520) 6-0
tdbot: T53R1M3 (2-pt): bonnita (1533) def. tam (1641) 2-0
tdbot: T53R1M4 (2-pt): teyakis (1548) def. myshlev (1486) 2-0
tdbot: 4 out of 4 completed.
tdbot: Finished listing Tourney #53 Round 1.
tam: round 2 tourney 53
tdbot: Listing Tourney #53 Round 2 (match length: 2):
tdbot: T53R2M1 (2-pt): sunray (1659) def. insbordnat (1551) 2-0
tdbot: T53R2M2 (2-pt): Gusssss (1687) def. bonnita (1533) 4-0
tdbot: T53R2M3 (2-pt): kid_pantyhose (1537) def. teyakis (1548) 3-1
tdbot: T53R2M4 (2-pt): rossa (1450) def. moyang (1585) 2-1
tdbot: 4 out of 4 completed.
tdbot: Finished listing Tourney #53 Round 2.
tam: round 3 tourney 53
tdbot: Listing Tourney #53 Round 3 (match length: 2):
tdbot: T53R3M1 (2-pt): Gusssss (1687) def. sunray (1659) 2-0
tdbot: T53R3M2 (2-pt): rossa (1450) def. kid_pantyhose (1537) 2-0
tdbot: 2 out of 2 completed.
tdbot: Finished listing Tourney #53 Round 3.
tam: round 4 tourney 53
tdbot: Listing Tourney #53 Round 4 (match length: 2):
tdbot: T53R4M1 (2-pt): Gusssss (1687) def. rossa (1450) 2-1
tdbot: 1 out of 1 completed.
tdbot: Finished listing Tourney #53 Round 4.
« Last Edit: September 12, 2007, 11:53:36 AM by tam »

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Re: New TB Features in the works
« Reply #15 on: September 12, 2007, 11:42:47 AM »

Offline socksey

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Re: New TB Features in the works
« Reply #16 on: September 12, 2007, 01:08:01 PM »
Quote
In the email it will list the results of each round and you can figure it our from there.


Well, no, you can't figure it out from that.  I can figure out a bye with this information, but a forfeit shows a 2-0 win and lots of wins are 2-0 with no other distinction.   :ohmy:  So how am I to know if I'm, not there to award the win?   :unsure:

socksey



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« Last Edit: September 12, 2007, 01:14:17 PM by socksey »

Offline Tom

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Re: New TB Features in the works
« Reply #17 on: September 12, 2007, 01:31:22 PM »
Well, no, you can't figure it out from that.  I can figure out a bye with this information, but a forfeit shows a 2-0 win and lots of wins are 2-0 with no other distinction.   :ohmy:  So how am I to know if I'm, not there to award the win?   :unsure:

socksey

Oh you mean manual forefits?

I am going to add all the status tells/shouts TB says to a tourney log that will be included in the email.
When a player gets a forefit I am sure TB tells them, so we'll have it captured

thanks!
tom

Offline socksey

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Re: New TB Features in the works
« Reply #18 on: September 12, 2007, 11:59:02 PM »
Ah, I see where the full #53 report was now!   :laugh: 

I'm sure the player would get a notification about a forfeit, but does the td?   :unsure:  I would need that information to figure my points  system.

As you will see, the point system renders a slightly different verdict than the standing the bots put out.  Note that tdbot lists sunray and kid_pantyhose as tied for 3rd when, points-wise, the kid is pushed down a notch because the kid got a bye in first round so his points are lowered by 2 for standings.  I'm not sure what happened with insbordnat.  He/she did not play in first round, and was beaten in second round, but was listed in 5th place but should have been in last place with the rest of the players who didn't win a match.  ;)  Maybe this is why I gave up on using the "standings" feature on TourneyBot!  I have to put it all on paper in front of my eyeballs.  ;)

Thanks to you, tam, for all your efforts and help!   :wub:

socksey



"There's an old saying in Tennessee — I know it's in Texas, probably in Tennessee — that says, fool me once, shame on — shame on you. Fool me — you can't get fooled again." - George W. Bush  (I love making fun of our president.   :laugh: )


« Last Edit: September 14, 2007, 01:52:26 PM by socksey »

Offline Tom

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Re: New TB Features in the works
« Reply #19 on: September 17, 2007, 02:30:21 PM »
Ok we have had a busy week!

The bot can now maintain a log of the tourney activity and send them as an email to the TD at the end of the tourney.

It also can register match results to a web page and Tomawaky has started implementing the interface on his site.

So the bot can automatically create, spam, start and finish a tourney, send log results and post matches to a web site.
(That url is configurable per tourney, so if other leagues want to implement it they can)

We still need a human TD to handle clocks... But that is not a heavy load, as most players are well behaved...

Next I need to add match monitoring and clocks... now the fun stuff...

I am not sure if I want to run tdbot all the time or get the changes added to TourneyBot.

Any thoughts?

I'll also talk to Matt about it

tom

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Re: New TB Features in the works
« Reply #20 on: September 17, 2007, 02:42:09 PM »
i've been following this thread, but it hasn't made much sense until having the experience of actually running a tourney as i did yesterday for the first time with the "Sunday Special" .. now, i'm bubbling over with ideas
 
first, i'm curious what you mean by schedule .. i assume it's an every Sunday, 1500 UTC, type thing .. it would  be great to have TDbot handle that, too, making set-up each week almost automatic .. although it makes me wonder if fully automated tourney's which seems to be where you're heading here might not suffer from bot like personality problems .. we have enough bot personality dysfuntion issues already, don't you think? worse still, what happens when something inevitably comes up that needs human intervention?

for example, socksey really makes a huge difference in all the stuff she does with "Mini-Matches" .. as do all the regular hosts of the other tourneys .. LuckyDice, for example, saved yesterday's Sunday Bago when the regular director was not logeed in at registration time .. stuff like that will always happen, sometimes even with bots .. but folks like socksey and LD are rare .. regardless, i suspect the tournament director's personality, ownership of, and responsibility for an event really can make an important difference in a tourney's success .. so, i offer an apprehensive warning about overly automating the whole process including scheduling
 
regarding spam, by which i assume you mean shouts by TDbot and the tourney director, something i'd like to see integrated into scheduling and expanded on is promotion .. fibs tourney schedules are *very* confusing .. it took me months to figure it out and i still screw it up from time to time .. therefore, i'd like to see TDbot shout out alerts to upcoming events synchronized to the time of an upcoming tourney

for example, shout hourly notices synchronized to appear one and two hours ahead of a scheduled time and at the scheduled time itself for a couple of days before the scheduled tourney .. this might help catch the attention of players who log on at regular times each day rather than inhabit fibs 24/7 like some of us do .. additional and increasing levels of alerts should also kick in during the 12-24 hours before the event itself
 
while possibly annoying, this would really be a good way to spread the word about tourneys (especially new ones where my thinking is at the moment) amongst new and old fibsters alike .. with a little thought these ads, err notices, could be simple and capable of expressing basic info as well as the personality or character of the tourney itself .. additionally, a TDbot maintained URL with references for scheduled events would also be nice
 
on the subject of promotion, i used my javafibs friends list which i use for almost everyone with a good reputation near my player rating and a programmable button to send out invitations to over 200 players for this first "Sunday Special" .. my wrist still hurts from all the mousing around required to do that .. i received a lot of positive feedback on this - primarily from folks who couldn't make it, but were glad to be aware of the new tourney .. i'll likely do this again a time or two for the "Sunday Special" and a "Midnight Special" i'm also considering hosting, but it was rather a pain in the old arse, not to mention wrist .. seems as if TDbot might be able to help manage a task like this too .. of course, the delicate balance of information, promotion, notices, ads, and true spam has to be weighed very carefully here too .. frankly, it can't be as bad as JokeBot can get .. also, if it came as a shout from something other than TDbot, say TDads, anyone annoyed by it could always gag it
 
on handling forfeits, socksey's comments below, my experience with 2 forfeits yesterday, and common sense suggest forfeits are an area where a human tourney director *must* be involved .. to spend time trying to automate that process may not be worth the effort and could create as many problems as it attempts to solve .. one or two bad forfeits by TDbot could do a lot of harm to TDbot's reputation which must aim toward perfection and be as transparent as possible, imho
 
however, since it is a time issue, here's a couple of suggestions on forfeits  .. whenever TDbot sends a notice of a next match to the players, include a UTC time stamp ... further, CC: that match notice to a log for the tourney (another TDbot idea) as well as to the tourney moderator(s) in a Tell .. thus, a reference time is automatically available for matches not started promptly .. all we'd have to do then is check the server clock to determine a valid time to forfeit when a dispute arises .. this would be far preferable, i think, to having it done automatically .. there will always arise exceptions to a precise 5 minute limit which need to be accommodated, e.g. smoke breaks for resh
 
yesterday, one of my forfeits in the "Sunday Special" involved a very reliable player, Bonnita, losing connection and being unable to reconnect or communicate with us until after the tourney .. thus, the semifinal match was sitting in idle .. fortunately, socksey was watching the match, timed the delay, and let me know about it .. thus, it was a quick and easy call to forfeit the match .. however, without socksey being on top of it, i'd have had a hard time making the call without adding even more time, perhaps another 5 minutes, to the delay .. not sure how TDbot might be able to help in that situation other than by monitoring and reporting (on request) a player's idle time to the moderator .. but from what i've seen of idle time reporting, it doesn't appear to be consistent enough to trust - maybe i just don't know how to retrieve it
 
regarding player registration limits, i set the bar a little higher on reputation yesterday and will experiment next week with setting it higher still .. i used a RepBot threshold of 5000 rather than zero whcih socksey uses in "Mini-Matches".. next week i'm going to increase that to 10000

my thinking is that this will not only encourage responsible RepBot use, but it just makes a nice screen door to keep varmints out .. if ever a player rejected in registration would really like to play and communicate that with me, i have the ability to give them a one time vouch for the event only which would bring them to the 10K threshold unless i'd already vouched for them or they were negative
 
i have several other ideas (i think), but this is way enough for now
 
thanks for your email reply from which some of these thoughts arose and i look forward to helping anyway i can with tourneys and using TDbot in future "Specials"
 
sixty
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Offline Tom

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Re: New TB Features in the works
« Reply #21 on: September 17, 2007, 03:13:42 PM »
first, i'm curious what you mean by schedule .. i assume it's an every Sunday, 1500 UTC, type thing .. it would  be great to have TDbot handle that, too, making set-up each week almost automatic .. although it makes me wonder if fully automated tourney's which seems to be where you're heading here might not suffer from bot like personality problems .. we have enough bot personality dysfuntion issues already, don't you think? worse still, what happens when something inevitably comes up that needs human intervention?

for example, socksey really makes a huge difference in all the stuff she does with "Mini-Matches" .. as do all the regular hosts of the other tourneys .. LuckyDice, for example, saved yesterday's Sunday Bago when the regular director was not logeed in at registration time .. stuff like that will always happen, sometimes even with bots .. but folks like socksey and LD are rare .. regardless, i suspect the tournament director's personality, ownership of, and responsibility for an event really can make an important difference in a tourney's success .. so, i offer an apprehensive warning about overly automating the whole process including scheduling

I have a bot running on Yahoo in Advanced Ave that manages 15-20 tourneys
a day and runs mostly with no TD. I do have additional player commands
that help the bot decide what to do.

In many ways FIBS gives a little more information about players so in
some ways it will be easier to do here.

I also think that near term limits of say 4 per day is max.
Basically no matter where you live you will have a chance to play at least one a day.

regarding spam, by which i assume you mean shouts by TDbot and the tourney director, something i'd like to see integrated into scheduling and expanded on is promotion .. fibs tourney schedules are *very* confusing .. it took me months to figure it out and i still screw it up from time to time .. therefore, i'd like to see TDbot shout out alerts to upcoming events synchronized to the time of an upcoming tourney

for example, shout hourly notices synchronized to appear one and two hours ahead of a scheduled time and at the scheduled time itself for a couple of days before the scheduled tourney .. this might help catch the attention of players who log on at regular times each day rather than inhabit fibs 24/7 like some of us do .. additional and increasing levels of alerts should also kick in during the 12-24 hours before the event itself
 
while possibly annoying, this would really be a good way to spread the word about tourneys (especially new ones where my thinking is at the moment) amongst new and old fibsters alike .. with a little thought these ads, err notices, could be simple and capable of expressing basic info as well as the personality or character of the tourney itself .. additionally, a TDbot maintained URL with references for scheduled events would also be nice

The players are confused when they can not predict when there will be
a tourney, that is one thing the league in Adv Ave worked very hard
to do manually, adding the bot made it much easier.

My goal is to run a handful of tourneys every day at the same times.

Yes a page and/or command to display the schedule would help.
For example if you tell TDBOT schedule list all
You will get a list of all the scheduled tourneys

I also want to get greater integration with one or more fibs clients.
I am talking to JavaFIBS developers, now. It seems to be the only
one with some interest in adding features.

on the subject of promotion, i used my javafibs friends list which i use for almost everyone with a good reputation near my player rating and a programmable button to send out invitations to over 200 players for this first "Sunday Special" .. my wrist still hurts from all the mousing around required to do that .. i received a lot of positive feedback on this - primarily from folks who couldn't make it, but were glad to be aware of the new tourney .. i'll likely do this again a time or two for the "Sunday Special" and a "Midnight Special" i'm also considering hosting, but it was rather a pain in the old arse, not to mention wrist .. seems as if TDbot might be able to help manage a task like this too .. of course, the delicate balance of information, promotion, notices, ads, and true spam has to be weighed very carefully here too .. frankly, it can't be as bad as JokeBot can get .. also, if it came as a shout from something other than TDbot, say TDads, anyone annoyed by it could always gag it

Maybe I could add a spam list that will send out one every hour and rotate to the next...
Like JokeBot... but I also very much like the TB Subscribe list, where we could send more info
or maybe next few scheduled events when a Subscribed player logs in, etc


on handling forfeits, socksey's comments below, my experience with 2 forfeits yesterday, and common sense suggest forfeits are an area where a human tourney director *must* be involved .. to spend time trying to automate that process may not be worth the effort and could create as many problems as it attempts to solve .. one or two bad forfeits by TDbot could do a lot of harm to TDbot's reputation which must aim toward perfection and be as transparent as possible, imho

I have done this before... in the other bot players had the following commands:
Code: [Select]
+LOST ( to report a loss)
 +CLOCK (to put their opponent on the clock)
 +BACK (to tell the bot is back online and maybe playing)

This way players can tell the bot what they think is going on.
It was not that hard to teach them.


However, since it is a time issue, here's a couple of suggestions on forfeits  .. whenever TDbot sends a notice of a next match to the players, include a UTC time stamp ... further, CC: that match notice to a log for the tourney (another TDbot idea) as well as to the tourney moderator(s) in a Tell .. thus, a reference time is automatically available for matches not started promptly .. all we'd have to do then is check the server clock to determine a valid time to forfeit when a dispute arises .. this would be far preferable, i think, to having it done automatically .. there will always arise exceptions to a precise 5 minute limit which need to be accommodated, e.g. smoke breaks for resh

yesterday, one of my forfeits in the "Sunday Special" involved a very reliable player, Bonnita, losing connection and being unable to reconnect or communicate with us until after the tourney .. thus, the semifinal match was sitting in idle .. fortunately, socksey was watching the match, timed the delay, and let me know about it .. thus, it was a quick and easy call to forfeit the match .. however, without socksey being on top of it, i'd have had a hard time making the call without adding even more time, perhaps another 5 minutes, to the delay .. not sure how TDbot might be able to help in that situation other than by monitoring and reporting (on request) a player's idle time to the moderator .. but from what i've seen of idle time reporting, it doesn't appear to be consistent enough to trust - maybe i just don't know how to retrieve it

Adding a time stamp is a good idea.
When I add clocks there will be commands to show player status,
last active time, idle time, on of off clock, etc

The bot would also be able to have it's own idle time as time since last
joined the match or other events, not just raw idle time. Time not playing the tourney match.


regarding player registration limits, i set the bar a little higher on reputation yesterday and will experiment next week with setting it higher still .. i used a RepBot threshold of 5000 rather than zero whcih socksey uses in "Mini-Matches".. next week i'm going to increase that to 10000

my thinking is that this will not only encourage responsible RepBot use, but it just makes a nice screen door to keep varmints out .. if ever a player rejected in registration would really like to play and communicate that with me, i have the ability to give them a one time vouch for the event only which would bring them to the 10K threshold unless i'd already vouched for them or they were negative

Yes RepBot can help a lot; but we need to encourage it's proper use.
I also want to get better integration between RepBot and javaFIBS

I think we really want to avoid Negative repbot limits. But we need to make it easier for people to use.
We need to start using the Friends features of repbot also... but that is a different forum...

The bottom line, there are a number of great features already in fibs that just need to get knitted together a little.
(OMG I wish Yahoo had a RepBot - you have NO idea... or maybe you *do* already!  :wacko:  :laugh: )


i have several other ideas (i think), but this is way enough for now
 
thanks for your email reply from which some of these thoughts arose and i look forward to helping anyway i can with tourneys and using TDbot in future "Specials"
 
sixty

Offline socksey

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Re: New TB Features in the works
« Reply #22 on: September 17, 2007, 08:18:32 PM »
Quote
My goal is to run a handful of tourneys every day at the same times.

Do you mean on Fibs?  This freaks me out!   :eager:   Fibs is too small to support anything like that.   :ohmy:  We are only around 100 players at any given time give or take.  I have seen as low as 80 something players to as much at 157 (the max I've ever seen).  If you run any conflicting tourneys at same time, you will have poor participation for one or the other.   :wacko:

You mentioned elsewhere that you had in mind 4 tourneys per day which might not be so bad, but they couldn't interfere with the current regularly scheduled tourneys.   :thumbdown:  That means there could not be 4 tourneys on the days of the already established tourneys.   :dry:

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Offline Tom

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Re: New TB Features in the works
« Reply #23 on: September 17, 2007, 08:48:30 PM »
Do you mean on Fibs?  This freaks me out!   :eager:   Fibs is too small to support anything like that.   :ohmy:  We are only around 100 players at any given time give or take.  I have seen as low as 80 something players to as much at 157 (the max I've ever seen).  If you run any conflicting tourneys at same time, you will have poor participation for one or the other.   :wacko:

You mentioned elsewhere that you had in mind 4 tourneys per day which might not be so bad, but they couldn't interfere with the current regularly scheduled tourneys.   :thumbdown:  That means there could not be 4 tourneys on the days of the already established tourneys.   :dry:

socksey


Maybe what I said was confusing..

I meant to say run tourneys at the same time each day, maybe up to 4 different times.

Thinking globally, that is 1 tourney every 6 hours

Of course I was not thinking about conflicting with anything existing.
Frankly I am a programmer and want to provide tools for others to use.
I have no desire to start a new league, etc. I am just expanding upon what we already have...

Tom

Offline sixty_something

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Re: New TB Features in the works
« Reply #24 on: September 17, 2007, 10:16:14 PM »
Tom, as a burned out ex-programmer, i see a lot of your enthusiasm and skill in your ideas and experience .. sharing it here to get user feedback before rollout is a tool i never enjoyed when i'd crawl into that little design space i still enjoy .. kuddos to you for using it .. but, as you probably know well, too much design and too many new features can be as fatal to a programming project's success as too little .. i'm *not* challenging your programming skills or ability to implement them, but i think socksey's concerns and mine reflect a need to also, perhaps most importantly, think locally, keep it small, and keep it simple

as i said in the emails we've shared earlier, fibs is an eclectic place, to say the least .. fibsland is much more akin to a dirt road back street than an "Advanced Avenue" .. as a small town Texas boy, i appreciate and love that about this sometimes nutty place .. therefore, trying to introduce too much regularity, efficiency, and routine just makes no sense to me either

first, it would likely result in a landslide of good natured but hyperventilated criticisms and put-downs that would undermine the validity of already well run tourneys and further conflict with that "special" nature of this little corner in the "vast wasteland" of cyberspace .. worse, fibsters could start twitching and moaning about TDbot tourneys, regardless of their efficiency, as much as they do about don, droppers, politics, and countless other things ..  we have more than enogh of that, imo .. finally, tourneys, especially, too many of them, will never be able to compete with the eclectic social structure many folks here find as appealing as playing backgammon .. if ever present tourneys droning on with bot like efficiency interfered with that aspect of the fibs experience, they would be doomed to failure regardless of their efficiency
 
for me, fibs is more a mom and pop storefront or eatery than a wal*mart or mcdonalds .. i drive out of my way for places like that just to avoid the sterile efficiency and infernal predictability of big box retail and the ever predictable "would you like fries with that?" .. in Austin there's a group of old and new hippies, artists, and artisans with the motto "Keep Austin Weird" .. well, "Keep FIBS Weird" works for me, too .. that's why i'm inclined to fully support socksey's concerns on this one .. sometimes more is less, sometimes much less

on reflection, i don't think it's a design or ease of use issue we're even talking about here, but rather a concern over your vision of how it might be implemented .. so, maybe this is just much ado about nothing regarding TDbot design, but, thanks to fibsboard, we have the ability to express it and get it out there for the community to also consider now or for years to come
 
so, for TDbot, imho, keeping it simple and keeping it a little quirky may be best .. let's just get it out there and start using it .. as a new tourney director, i can't wait to see and benefit from some of the features you have in mind
 
great work, man, keep it up, but stay open to socksey's sense of the fibs landscape and big picture .. your ideas and ability to implement them is awesome .. i'm truly impressed by your decication and the many contributions others have also made and continue to make to this little hometown .. but let's not replace the back roads with paved superhighways or mom and pop's barbecue joint with a super-sized whatever just yet
 
best regards,

sixty
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Offline sixty_something

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Re: New TB Features in the works
« Reply #25 on: September 17, 2007, 11:01:03 PM »
and now a new idea for a TDbot feature - improved and expanded tournament reporting .. as i was thinking about ways i'd like to start reporting on my new "Sunday Special" tournament, i quickly began thinking about ways TDbot could help implement that .. in no time i forgot about reporting results of Sunday's tourney and began this not so little wish list based on my first "Sunday Special"

Proposed enhancements for TDbot shouts during tournament play

Upon starting play shout a list of players in seed order with rating,

"Sunday Special" Tourney #2058 Seed order:

    1. don (1823)
    2. blotsalot (1759)
    3. LuckyDice (1722)
    4. nixo (1710)
    5. Buso (1696)
    6. Gusssss (1674)
    7. sixty_something (1698)
    8. sarah (1683)
    9. breadfruit (1680)
   10. iowcoops (1672)
   11. socksey (1658)
   12. sunray (1657)
   13. bonnita (1604)
   14. moyang (1599)
   15. cassandra (1595)
   16. Sixta_II (1546)
   17. teyakis (1537)
   18. rollingfool (1532)
   19. Marcus (1500)
   20. patapouf (1500)
   21. njofra (1491)
   22. rossa (1491)
   23. zbilbo (1477)
   24. zulu (1473)



Also, advise each player his/her seed rank in a private tell, as

   You are the #7 seed of 24 in today's "Sunday Special"
    Good luck and thanks for playing!


Upon sending match notification rather than TourneyBot's somewhat cryptic:

   Message from TourneyBot: T2058R1M2 (3-pt): moyang (1599) vs. sixty_something (1698)

which is mostly noise, instead say:

   Round 1 "Sunday Special"  #14. moyang (1599) vs. #7. sixty_something (1698)

Upon start, shout out a list of all pairings, ordered by seed number:

   Round 1 of 5 in "Sunday Special" Tournament - 3 point matches (1522 UTC)


   # 1 don (1823) 3-2             vs. #12 sunray (1657)     
   # 2 blotsalot (1759)            vs. #20 patapouf (1500)   
   # 3 LuckyDice (1722)          vs. # 6 Gusssss (1674)   
   # 7 sixty_something (1698)  vs. #14 moyang (1599)     
   # 9 breadfruit (1680)           vs. #17 teyakis (1537)
   #10 iowcoops (1672)           vs. #11 socksey (1658)
   #15 cassandra (1595)          vs. #19 Marcus (1500)     
   #16 Sixta_II (1546)             vs. #18 rollingfool (1532)

   byes:  #4 nixo, #5 Buso, #8 sarah, #13 bonnita,
         #21 njofra, #22 rossa, #23 zbilbo, #24 zulu

   Good luck to all .. let the games begin!

Upon completion of each match, shout and tell all players:

   Round 1 #19 Marcus (1500) def. #15 cassandra (1595)   3-0  1539 UTC


Upon completion of each round, shout the results by order of finish:

   Results from Round 1 of 5 in "Sunday Special" Tournament complete at 1554 UTC:

   # 6 Gusssss (1674)           def. # 3 LuckyDice (1722)   3-0   1536 UTC
   #19 Marcus (1500)            def. #15 cassandra (1595)  3-0     39
   #20 patapouf (1500)         def. # 2 blotsalot (1759)     3-0     42
   # 9 breadfruit (1680)         def. #17 teyakis (1537)      3-0     42
   #16 Sixta_II (1546)           def. #18 rollingfool (1532)   3-0     43
   #12 sunray (1657)             def. # 1 don (1823)           3-2     46
   # 7 sixty_something (1698) def. #14 moyang (1599)     5-0     48
   #10 iowcoops (1672)         def. #11 socksey (1658)     5-2     54

Upon assignment of new matches, shout and tell:

   Round 2 "Sunday Special" #6 Gusssss (1674) vs. #13 bonnita (1604)


Substitute Semifinals and Finals for the round number when appropriate.

Shout the scores of each game in the finals with tells to all registered players. At the conclusion of the match shout and tell a customized congrats. Then, shout out the standings for the tourney.

Finally, the seed list, round results, and standing should also be sent to a simple text log file which could also be emailed to the tourney moderators and players with a registered email subscription for TDbot statistics.

IMO, such features would not only provide players with a ratcheted up level of excitement and interest while  playing, but ensure their interest in playing in a tourney again next time. Non-players would likely sense and catch on to this excitement, as well. Who knows, in no time we might have 4 or more tourneys running every day!  :yes:

Think you could have this ready by next Sunday, Tom?  :cool:

sixty
« Last Edit: September 18, 2007, 01:44:17 AM by sixty_something »
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Offline socksey

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Re: New TB Features in the works
« Reply #26 on: September 18, 2007, 12:17:52 AM »
The "other" concern I'm having, is will all this shouting and telling slow Fibs down any?  I have noticed more lag on Fibs of late and I wouldn't want any of this to add to that problem.   ;)

socksey



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Offline burper

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Re: New TB Features in the works
« Reply #27 on: September 18, 2007, 12:43:35 AM »
I also want to get greater integration with one or more fibs clients.
I am talking to JavaFIBS developers, now. It seems to be the only

There is also the FLiPS or FibsCompanion solution, which would make your new features available to *any* client.
See http://stepfibs.sourceforge.net/OtherStuff.html

As far as spam goes, why not go with opt-in tells, like RepBot does?
Better yet, register valid IM handles and use libpurple. That way there is no fibs bandwidth used, and
you have a more robust communication medium and toolset. Another stepfibs sub-project I have going
is a libpurple protocol plugin for fibs (see the stepfibs svn).

Offline Tom

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Re: New TB Features in the works
« Reply #28 on: September 18, 2007, 02:51:56 PM »
great work, man, keep it up, but stay open to socksey's sense of the fibs landscape and big picture .. your ideas and ability to implement them is awesome .. i'm truly impressed by your decication and the many contributions others have also made and continue to make to this little hometown .. but let's not replace the back roads with paved superhighways or mom and pop's barbecue joint with a super-sized whatever just yet

I hear your points and maybe I am looking too far in the future of possibilities.
Let me say this... The features I implement will avoid anything that will LIMIT what can be done.

We'll let the community figure out what fits best, which may even change over time...

tom

Offline Tom

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Re: New TB Features in the works
« Reply #29 on: September 18, 2007, 04:49:08 PM »
and now a new idea for a TDbot feature - improved and expanded tournament reporting ..

There are a lot of good ideas in there.

I think some of the crypticism is from testing and then leaving it because it worked and nobody suggested anything better

I share socksey's concern about fibs bandwidth but... it can be a lot prettier...

FIBS is line oriented, so maybe longer lines of text would help maybe like:

Sunday Special Round 1: don vs sunray winner plays nixo, blotsalot vs patapouf, LuckyDice vs Guesssss winner plays sarah etc

It might tends to be more compact

You see FIBS requires a specific delay between commands as a form of self protection (DOS etc)

In the Tells I like

Round 1 "Sunday Special"  #14. moyang (1599) vs. #7. sixty_something (1698)

But maybe we could also do something like say

In Round 1 of Sunday Special you play sixty_something, please start your match ASAP!

There are pros and cons of listing all the seeding and ratings, we won't go into that right now...


I also like this

Upon completion of each match, shout and tell all players:

   Round 1 #19 Marcus (1500) def. #15 cassandra (1595)   3-0  1539 UTC

esp the TIME! :)

tom

Offline Tom

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Re: New TB Features in the works
« Reply #30 on: October 08, 2007, 03:18:26 PM »
Just an update as to what I have been up to.

I have added automatic player clocks for drops and not starting matches.

This is taking a lot of testing with some test ids.

Then I need to consider how to handle slow play...

I was thinking about adding a command a player could send to tbot to have tbot Watch/UnWatch the match every few min to make sure the game it still moving and maybe if it found a player had not moved in two visits then clock them.

I am not sure I would want to do that to every match, as a player that could be annoying.
starts watching/stops watching/starts.../etc

Does anyone know a better way to tell a player has made a move?

tom

Offline burper

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Re: New TB Features in the works
« Reply #31 on: October 09, 2007, 12:58:29 AM »
Use look instead of watch.
Why not do a look to every match periodically?

Offline Tom

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Re: New TB Features in the works
« Reply #32 on: October 09, 2007, 02:08:07 AM »
Use look instead of watch.
Why not do a look to every match periodically?

 :cool:

I did not see that one!

Thanks!

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Re: New TB Features in the works
« Reply #33 on: October 09, 2007, 04:09:31 PM »
Quote
I also like this

Upon completion of each match, shout and tell all players:

   Round 1 #19 Marcus (1500) def. #15 cassandra (1595)   3-0  1539 UTC

esp the TIME!

I like this too, but would prefer it be in "tells" only to the Tourney Director.  Or, is TDBot going to award wins for time?  If so, then, I would prefer that be in only "tells". 

I think we should try to keep as much information as possible out of "shouts" so we don't detract from the conversations going on there, when at all possible.  "Shouts" is an important part of the charm of Fibs and I think we should try to preserve that at all costs.

socksey



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« Last Edit: October 09, 2007, 04:15:00 PM by socksey »

Offline Tom

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Re: New TB Features in the works
« Reply #34 on: October 09, 2007, 04:28:11 PM »
I like this too, but would prefer it be in "tells" only to the Tourney Director.  Or, is TDBot going to award wins for time?  If so, then, I would prefer that be in only "tells". 

I think we should try to keep as much information as possible out of "shouts" so we don't detract from the conversations going on there, when at all possible.  "Shouts" is an important part of the charm of Fibs and I think we should try to preserve that at all costs.

I am going to look over the shouts we use.

One thing I have thought about is to use TELLS to players of the tourney for most of the info

I have a bit more to do on clocks (look command - thanks burper) and then the cosmetic stuff...

The 'time' mentioned there was the time of day the match was finished.

And yes the bot will be able to track clocks and award wins when a player times out.

Remember theses things are all configurable...

if you do not define a timeout then the TD can manage the clocks manually.

tom

Offline burper

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Re: New TB Features in the works
« Reply #35 on: October 09, 2007, 11:58:21 PM »
Another option is for players to use FLiPS with the Rooms plugin, including TDBot.
Those players currently in TDBots' Room would hear whatever announcements TDBot made in that Room.

Offline Tom

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Re: New TB Features in the works
« Reply #36 on: October 14, 2007, 02:14:34 PM »
Well I have player clocks implemented, starts clock when player drops offline, leaves match or just sits there without moving (not idle, just not moving - I watch the board via Look - thanks burper)

Takes you off clock when you resume the match or start moving again.

If you time out it will automatically advance your opponent and send a tourney shout so everyone knows what happened.
(in email log too)

I have a little more testing to do but hope to run a tourney at 1600UTC  a few days this week (Mon-Thur)

I have not made the match shouts more people friendly yet, as those are just cosmetic changes and I need to get the logic tested...

thanks for all your future help testing!  :thumbsup2:

Offline Tom

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Re: New TB Features in the works
« Reply #37 on: December 23, 2007, 04:34:51 PM »
Well things are still moving along.

Matt and I have been talking and he needs to move it to a different server.
Because of all the code I have been adding he suggested I start hosting it.

I am testing my environment and now have tdbot running 24x7

When we do the switch the tourneybot will be down for a bit while we move the database.

If Matt can wait until after 1/1 it may be best because I think there may be a lot of people
on vacation at this point...

Of course I am also on vacation (but painting my house)...

Tom

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Re: New TB Features in the works
« Reply #38 on: December 23, 2007, 06:07:39 PM »
Well things are still moving along.

Matt and I have been talking and he needs to move it to a different server.
Because of all the code I have been adding he suggested I start hosting it.

I am testing my environment and now have tdbot running 24x7

When we do the switch the tourneybot will be down for a bit while we move the database.

If Matt can wait until after 1/1 it may be best because I think there may be a lot of people
on vacation at this point...

Of course I am also on vacation (but painting my house)...

Tom

Hi, I can wait, my current hosting expires on 31 Dec, though. I have the new server already up and running, but I'd rather not go through the trouble of setting it up for TourneyBot if you're going to start hosting it ...

M.
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Offline Tom

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Re: New TB Features in the works
« Reply #39 on: April 14, 2008, 11:54:58 AM »
I have been very bust as of late, but have finally gotten back to tourneybot...

I have created a new tourney type "single" to replace "bracket" in the future which works better with my bracket posting code.

The bracket code had a problem of calling the Round 1 matches M1,M2,M3 even if there were a number of bye's

The new code will correctly place the r1 & r2 matches where they belong for proper tourney matches.

Another important addition is it will sort the players for seeding by Rating & experience, more like regular tourneys.

I have some more testing to do, but wanted to let you all know of the advances!

Are there any other (useful) sorting methods?

tom

Offline socksey

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Re: New TB Features in the works
« Reply #40 on: April 15, 2008, 02:26:47 PM »
I like dealing with one bot and I like posting my results to fibsboard.

socksey



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Offline spielberg

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Re: New TB Features in the works
« Reply #41 on: April 15, 2008, 06:31:59 PM »

Are there any other (useful) sorting methods?


Thanks Tom for yet another improvement. When you implement the new sorting arrangemnets I would prefer the ability to choose whether tourneys run with seeding or without. Only one other seeding method comes to mind, and to be honest allowing Calcutta auctions for fibs tourneys does seem rather pointless as as we all know (and NIHI demonstrates so admirably) fibs rating points are worthless!

Offline Tom

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Re: New TB Features in the works
« Reply #42 on: April 15, 2008, 10:10:13 PM »
I like dealing with one bot and I like posting my results to fibsboard.

I am not talking about a new bot :)

And the bracket reporting is just an option for sites like FLG etc

tom

Offline Tom

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Re: New TB Features in the works
« Reply #43 on: April 15, 2008, 10:13:26 PM »
Thanks Tom for yet another improvement. When you implement the new sorting arrangemnets I would prefer the ability to choose whether tourneys run with seeding or without. Only one other seeding method comes to mind, and to be honest allowing Calcutta auctions for fibs tourneys does seem rather pointless as as we all know (and NIHI demonstrates so admirably) fibs rating points are worthless!

Ok so an option to select sorting...

Random Seeding (What is done now)
Rating
Registration Order
Name order

When working with a league (like FLG) I might be able to sort by League rating (as opposed to FIBS Rating)

If FIBS Rating is meaningless, what rating does have meaning?

tom

Offline spielberg

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Re: New TB Features in the works
« Reply #44 on: April 16, 2008, 06:21:53 PM »
If FIBS Rating is meaningless, what rating does have meaning?

tom

Now there's a philosphical question! I didn't mean the rating meaningless, I meant it's "worthless" in the strictest sense of having no monetary value. Although I suspect the use of a formula from chess, an efficient game where one should play as if your opponent is perfect, is not ideal for backgammon, which I'd argue is inefficient like many gambling games, I suspect it's the best model available. That's not my view - it's Doug Zare's whom as a math professor regularly working with Field's medalists and Nobel laureates I'd tend to trust on math.

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