FIBS Board backgammon forum

Backgammon => Fibsboard Forum Matches => FFM4 => Topic started by: roadkillbooks on February 04, 2010, 08:08:32 PM

Poll
Question: Cube or Not to Cube
Option 1: Cube votes: 3
Option 2: Not to Cube votes: 1
Title: Game 4 Move A Forum Cube?
Post by: roadkillbooks on February 04, 2010, 08:08:32 PM
Cube or not to cube?
Title: Re: Game 4 Move A Forum Cube?
Post by: ah_clem on February 04, 2010, 08:36:13 PM
Spoiler


With our three point board vs his anemic one-point board we're going to go for an exchange of hits if we can.  If we can send a second checker back just about any roll that doesn't allow him to anchor is a market loser. I count 22/36 hitting rolls, and only 14/36 rolls for him that anchor.  That's a lot of market losing sequences.

But are we good enough?  We're behind in the race, but we have a pretty good blockade and an advanced anchor.  Overall, our position is quite superior.  With the 61% chance of hitting we have a clear advantage in threats.  That's an advantage in both position and threats, and using the PRAT (http://www.bkgm.com/rgb/rgb.cgi?view+702) criteria that should be enough to double.

Moreover,since we're behind in the match score, we should be more willing to push the cube than usual, so I say ship it.
double.
[close]
Title: Re: Game 4 Move A Forum Cube?
Post by: roadkillbooks on February 04, 2010, 11:18:15 PM
im gonna out to the movies.  If this continues this way ill move this along.

roadkillbooks
Title: Re: Game 4 Move A Forum Cube?
Post by: roadkillbooks on February 05, 2010, 05:13:07 AM
Ok its 5 am fibsboard time.  Not a lot of votes  but 3-1 is 75% which is most definately a cubefriendly percentage so....

Blitzxz do you take or drop?
Title: Re: Game 4 Move A Forum Cube?
Post by: diane on February 05, 2010, 08:16:05 AM
I didnt get a chance to vote again  :(
Title: Re: Game 4 Move A Forum Cube?
Post by: roadkillbooks on February 05, 2010, 05:38:31 PM
sorry i guess ill wait the standard 24 hours.
Title: Re: Game 4 Move A Forum Cube?
Post by: ah_clem on February 05, 2010, 05:48:08 PM
Quote from: diane on February 05, 2010, 08:16:05 AM
I didnt get a chance to vote again  :(

Right.  We're only allowed to vote once.  Nobody is allowed to vote again once they've voted.
Title: Re: Game 4 Move A Forum Cube?
Post by: adrian on February 05, 2010, 07:07:35 PM
For what it takes , after 11 hours after the poll was opened and I found it locked even after my foreposters noticed and complained, I'd say cube.
Please don't ask me to elaborate why. Trust me on this   :thumbsup2:
Title: Re: Game 4 Move A Forum Cube?
Post by: diane on February 05, 2010, 10:24:46 PM
Quote from: ah_clem on February 05, 2010, 05:48:08 PM
Right.  We're only allowed to vote once.  Nobody is allowed to vote again once they've voted.

:tongue2: :tongue2: :tongue2: :tongue2:


:lol:
Title: Re: Game 4 Move A Forum Cube?
Post by: blitzxz on February 06, 2010, 07:13:29 PM
There's some difficulty here as I see lots of outcomes where I lose a gammon and gammons have extra value here. However, I lead the race and the game is far from over which gives me very good winning chances. Forum's 4 checkers behind might also cause some troubles to close me out as there might not be enough ammo. I'm not going to give any more free points for Forum so after some thought I take.
Title: Re: Game 4 Move A Forum Cube?
Post by: ah_clem on February 08, 2010, 01:29:46 AM
gnubg rollout

Spoiler


It's a marginal double.  And a huge take.



Cube analysis
Rollout cubeless equity  +0.372 (Money:  +0.287)

Cubeful equities:
1. Double, take         +0.625
2. Double, pass         +1.000  ( +0.375)
3. No double            +0.593  ( -0.032)
Proper cube action: Double, take

Rollout details:

Centered 1-cube:
  0.581 0.211 0.021 - 0.419 0.100 0.008 CL  +0.372 CF  +0.593
[0.002 0.002 0.002 - 0.002 0.002 0.001 CL   0.007 CF   0.017]

Player blitzxz owns 2-cube:
  0.585 0.207 0.028 - 0.415 0.115 0.013 CL  +0.868 CF  +0.625
[0.002 0.002 0.003 - 0.002 0.003 0.002 CL   0.021 CF   0.023]

Full cubeful rollout with var.redn.
1296 games, Mersenne Twister dice gen. with seed 843463219 and quasi-random

dice
Play: 0-ply cubeful prune [expert]
Cube: 0-ply cubeful prune [expert]




[close]
Title: Re: Game 4 Move A Forum Cube?
Post by: roadkillbooks on February 10, 2010, 08:10:04 PM
extremeGammon has the no double as a much larger -.084 error

the win percentage is :

58.08 (20.24% g) with .695 equity after a double take and .611 with no double.  The only real explanation is that the ME tables are prob different but I think that is a large difference
Title: Re: Game 4 Move A Forum Cube?
Post by: blitzxz on February 11, 2010, 09:24:41 PM
Quote from: roadkillbooks on February 10, 2010, 08:10:04 PM
The only real explanation is that the ME tables are prob different but I think that is a large difference

I don't know what is extremeGammon's match equity table, but I'm pretty sure that match equity table can't make any kind of difference, unless you use asymmetric tables. All new match equity tables are so close to each other. The explanation might be that gnu 0-ply has problems with the cube. 0/2 gnu rollout agrees more with your numbers but there' still a difference. Although the standard errors are quite big, so 1296 rollout is not enough to judge what are the exact numbers. So variance in rollouts and different cube handling in gnu and XG are propably the reasons for difference. Gnu also manages to win little bit more gammons, which I think is odd.

Rollout details:
Centered 1-cube:
 0,583 0,214 0,017 - 0,417 0,111 0,009 CL  +0,366 CF  +0,631
[0,002 0,002 0,002 - 0,002 0,002 0,001 CL   0,007 CF   0,014]
Player blitzxz owns 2-cube:
 0,586 0,210 0,023 - 0,414 0,124 0,012 CL  +0,918 CF  +0,672
[0,002 0,002 0,002 - 0,002 0,003 0,002 CL   0,018 CF   0,020]
Full cubeful rollout with var.redn.
1296 games, Mersenne Twister dice gen. with seed 623956183 and quasi-random dice
Play: 0-ply cubeful [expert]
Cube: 2-ply cubeful prune [world class]