FIBS Board backgammon forum

FIBSBoard general => General Chit Chat => Topic started by: BladeRunner on November 03, 2004, 09:42:42 PM

Title: A nation to be embarrased about...
Post by: BladeRunner on November 03, 2004, 09:42:42 PM
Wallow In Chaos, And Laugh

A pro-Bush outcome with one enormous bitter pill to swallow...
...and you without your vodka!

By Mark Morford, SF Gate Columnist

Oh dear God please not again. Oh dear God please don't let it be all convoluted and depressing and messy and stupid and please don't let it all embarrass us on an international level all over again even more than it already has and even more than it already is and even more than we've endured lo these past four debilitating and soul-crushing years. Hello? Please? Is it already too late?

Why yes, yes it is.

And lo and behold, it was apparently another completely tortuous and
entirely knotted presidential election, unfinished until the wee hours and
reeking of E-voting suspicion and exit-poll miscalculation and it all came
down to, what? Ohio? Are you serious? What a thing.

And now Kerry's conceded and the white flag has been raised and we are
headed toward the utterly appalling notion of another four years of Bush
and another Republican stranglehold of Congress and repeated GOP chants of
"More War in '04!" Which is, well, simply staggering. Mind-blowing. Odd.
Gut-wrenching. Colon-knotting. Eyeball-gouging. And so on.

You want to block it out. You want to rend your flesh and yank your hair
and say no way in hell and lean out your window and scream into the Void
and pray it will all be over soon, even though you know you're an atheist
Buddhist Taoist Rosicrucian Zen Orgasmican and you don't normally pray to
anything except maybe the gods of really exceptional sake and
skin-tingling sex and maybe a few luminous transcendental deities that
look remarkably like Jenna Jameson.

It simply boggles the mind: We've already had four years of some of the
most appalling and abusive foreign and domestic policy in American
history, some of the most well-documented atrocities ever wrought on the
American populace and it's all combined with the biggest and most
violently botched and grossly mismanaged war since Vietnam, and still much
of the nation still insists in living in a giant vat of utter blind faith,
still insists on believing the man in the White House couldn't possibly be
treating them like a dog treats a fire hydrant.

Inexplicable? Not really. People want to believe. They want to trust their
leaders, even against all screaming, neon-lit evidence and stack upon
stack of flagrant, impeachment-grade lie. They simply cannot allow that
Dubya might really be an utter boob and that they are being treated like
an abused, beaten housewife who keeps coming back for more, insisting her
drunk husband didn't mean it, that she probably had it coming, that the
cuts and bruises and blood and broken bones are all for her own good.

And this election, it might be all be very amusing, in a Mel Gibsony,
blood-drenched hamburger-of-Christ sorta way, were it not so sad and
dangerous. It might all be tolerable and cute, in a violence-engorged,
sexist, video-gamey sorta way, were it not so lopsided and wrong.

This election's outcome, this heartbreaking proof of a nation split more
deeply and decisively than ever, it simply reinforces the feeling among
much of the educated populace: It is a weirdly embarrassing time to be an
American. It is jarring and oddly shattering and makes you rethink what it
really means to be a part of this country. The answer: It doesn't mean
much at all. Not really. Not anymore.

This is the common wisdom on the progressive Left. Those first four toxic
Bush years? A fluke. A phantasm. A stolen election. A gaff, a mugging, a
crime. But this? An election this close makes you reconsider. Maybe, after all, we aren't nearly as far along as we think. Maybe we're not all that sophisticated or nuanced or respectable a nation as we sometimes dare to dream.

Maybe, in fact, we're regressing, back to the days of guns and sexism and
pre-emptive violence, of environmental abuse and no rights for women and
an sincere hatred of gays and foreigners and minorities. Sound familiar?
It should: It's the modern GOP platform.

Here's the thing: For tens of millions of us, it is simply unconscionable
that we could possibly be led for another four years by a small and
spoiled little man who has very little real idea what he's doing and even
less of how the hell he got there. It would be funny, in a Adam Sandler,
toilet-humored sort of way, were it not so poisonous and depressing. And
yet it looks like we're stuck with it, like a shard of glass buried deep
in the eye.

And the rest of the world? Well, it can only watch us and shake its
collective head and wonder just what the hell is wrong with us, why so
many millions of us would even consider re-electing the world's most inept
and war-hungry and insanely inarticulate man to four more years of
unchecked power, why our much-hyped much-coveted supposedly ultra-superior
democratic system is so very deeply blotchy and knotty and spoiled.

So then, to much of Europe, Asia, Canada, Mexico, Russia, the Middle East
-- to all those dozens of major world nations who want Bush out almost as
much as the educated people of America, to you we can only say: We are so
very, very sorry. We don't know how it happened, either. For tens of
millions of us, Bush is not our president and never will be. That's how
divisive. That's how dangerous. That's how very sad it has become.

The GOP steamroller appears to be just too powerful, just too well-oiled
and blood soaked and fear inducing to be stopped just yet. After all, the
Right has been working on this master plan and building their takeover
strategy for about forty years. It's gonna take those of us working for
change and progress and raw spiritual juice a little more than one or two
to dissolve it away like the cancer it so obviously is.

Apparently, there are lessons yet to be learned. Apparently we must hit
some sort of new low between now and 2008, attain some sort of seriously
vicious status in the world before we will snap out of it. You think?

This much is clear: We are not, with a grim Bush victory, headed for
buoyancy and friendship and sincere hope for something new and refreshing.
We are not, with another four years of what we just endured, headed toward
any sort of easing of bitter tension, a sense of levity, or sexual
openness, or true education, or gender respect, or a lightness of spirit
and of step.

Maybe the best we can hope for, at this ominous and slightly sickening
moment, is one hell of a lot more patience.
Title: A nation to be embarrased about...
Post by: socksey on November 04, 2004, 07:00:55 PM
This article voices my feelings today to a tee.  I feel a deep sadness in my gut.  Sorry if I offend any of you Bushites, but you guys have got to be burying your heads in the sand.

socksey



Bumper sticker:  Everyone has a photographic memory...some just don't have any film.
Title: A nation to be embarrased about...
Post by: dorbel on November 04, 2004, 08:53:17 PM
NOTICE OF REVOCATION OF INDEPENDENCE
To the citizens of the United States of America, In the  light of your failure to elect a worthwhile President of the USA and  thus to govern yourselves properly, we hereby give notice of the  revocation of your independence, effective today.

Her Sovereign Majesty Queen Elizabeth II will resume  monarchical duties over all states, commonwealths and other territories.  Except Utah, which she does not fancy.

Your new prime minister (The rt. hon. Tony Blair, MP for  the 97.85% of you who have until now been unaware that there is a world outside your borders) will appoint a minister for America without the  need for further elections.
 
Congress and the Senate will be disbanded. A  questionnaire will be circulated next year to determine whether any of  you noticed. To aid in the transition to a British Crown Dependency, the  following rules are introduced with immediate effect:

1. You should look up "revocation" in the  Oxford English Dictionary. Then look up "aluminium". Check the  pronunciation guide. You will be amazed at just how wrongly you have  been pronouncing it. Generally, you should raise your vocabulary to  acceptable levels. Look up "vocabulary". Using the same twenty  seven words interspersed with filler noises such as "like" and  "you know" is an unacceptable and inefficient form of  communication. Look up "interspersed".

2. There is no such thing as "US English". We  will let Microsoft know on your behalf.

3. You should learn to distinguish the English and  Australian accents. It really isn't that hard.
4. Hollywood will be required occasionally to cast  English actors as the good guys.
5. You should relearn your original national anthem,  "God Save The Queen", but only after fully carrying out task  1. We would not want you to get confused and give up half way  through.

6. You should stop playing American "football".  There is only one kind of football. What you refer to as American ="football" is not a very good game.The 2.15% of you who are aware that there is a world  outside your borders may have noticed that no one else plays  "American" football. You will no longer be allowed to play it, and should  instead play proper football.  Initially, it would be best if you  played with the girls. It is a difficult game. Those of you brave enough  will, in time, be allowed to play rugby (which is similar to American  "football", but does not involve stopping for a  rest every twenty seconds or wearing full kevlar body armour like  nancies). We are hoping to get together at least a US rugby sevens side by  2005.

7. You should declare war on Quebec and France, using  nuclear weapons if they give you any merde. The 98.85% of you who were not aware that there is a world outside your borders should count  yourselves lucky. The Russians have never been the bad guys.  "Merde" is French for "sh*t".

8. July 4th is no longer a public holiday. November 3rd  will be a new national holiday, but only in England. It will be called "Indecisive Day".

9. All American cars are hereby banned. They are crap and  it is for your own good. When we show you German cars, you will  understand what we mean.

10. Please tell us who killed JFK. It's been  driving us crazy. Thank you for your cooperation.
Title: A nation to be embarrased about...
Post by: diane on November 04, 2004, 09:20:35 PM
I was going to replace number 7 to read as follows..

7. Baseball will henceforth be known by its proper name 'rounders' and will only be played by schoolgirls - as was originally intended.

:D
Title: A nation to be embarrased about...
Post by: tryout on November 04, 2004, 09:26:22 PM
Hi BladeRunner,

very good article.

Maybe you can divide the US in North and South states again until Hillary takes over...



Title: A nation to be embarrased about...
Post by: Zorba on November 05, 2004, 12:13:29 AM
Great one, dorbel :lol:
Title: A nation to be embarrased about...
Post by: gotsha on November 05, 2004, 04:48:19 AM
Yes, America and Mr. Bush have problems, but America and GWB will do our best to fix our problems.

Nuff said boys and girls...I served for over 12 years in both the US Army and US Air Force, AND I don't like to hear insults thrown at our great nation.  Please keep your politics to one of your liberal blogs, not on a backgammon site.  
Title: A nation to be embarrased about...
Post by: BearB on November 05, 2004, 08:30:28 AM
Thank You Dorbel - needed a laugh like that.
Possibly you should add as an after thought that they also need to be able to laugh at themselves once in a while - sorry Gotsha. :cool:  
Title: A nation to be embarrased about...
Post by: Shades on November 05, 2004, 02:01:17 PM
QuoteYes, America and Mr. Bush have problems, but America and GWB will do our best to fix our problems.

Nuff said boys and girls...I served for over 12 years in both the US Army and US Air Force, AND I don't like to hear insults thrown at our great nation.  Please keep your politics to one of your liberal blogs, not on a backgammon site.
:huh:    touchy-touchy??    :smash:  
Title: A nation to be embarrased about...
Post by: webrunner on November 05, 2004, 07:56:07 PM
QuoteYes, America and Mr. Bush have problems, but America and GWB will do our best to fix our problems.

Nuff said boys and girls...I served for over 12 years in both the US Army and US Air Force, AND I don't like to hear insults thrown at our great nation.  Please keep your politics to one of your liberal blogs, not on a backgammon site.
This is not a backgammon site, it is a forum for Fibs-users and almost any topic is allowed here.
And topics like these are to be expected, considering what i see oin the shouts most of the time :)

Title: A nation to be embarrased about...
Post by: gotsha on November 05, 2004, 11:29:54 PM
Well Webrunner..I'd like to raise the BS flag...looking at the current "Latest Discussions" and "Recent Articles" on the web page, every topic is about backgammon, or someone we know from FIBS.  The one outlier is Vic's Bush photo, which can be discounted...because, well, it's from Vic.

Something tells me that if someone had something inflamatory to say about you or your country, it wouldn't last very long on the site.   Bottom line, the letter is funny, but with all the abuse thrown at Americans on FIBS, it's gotten old, and downright rude.  
 
Title: A nation to be embarrased about...
Post by: dorbel on November 06, 2004, 12:01:09 AM
Look Gotsha, the original article is actually by an American writing in an American paper. He didn't like the way that the election went and he doesn't like the way that America is headed. It's opinion, probably an opinion shared by about 45% of Americans if the election is anything to go by, but just opinion. My letter, not my own original work by the way, is a joke. Are you really so insecure that an opinion and a joke have you yelling "This shouldn't be allowed"? Lighten up dude, criticism and jokes aimed at America and Americans don't imply anti-American feeling on the part of us non-Americans or un-American attitudes on the part of Americans.
I expect the columnist loves his country, but he doesn't have to love President Bush. I would have to go along with that. If you want your President to be respected, elect a man or woman who can earn that respect. If your President is reviled worldwide, in spite of all that the most PR skilled country in the world can do for him, you have to ask yourself why that is.
I love America and its people, left or right, black or white. I think that America, energetic, inventive, racially and culturally diverse, in possession of a large and beautiful and country, rich beyond the wildest dreams of any other nation on earth, so powerful that they have no significant enemies, is the hope of the world. You have it in your power to fix the future of the planet for hundreds of years to come. However, that hope is for the future and it doesn't lie within the scope or even the vision of the man that you just elected. This is opinion by the way. Agree or disagree, make your own points, but opinion shouldn't be expressed? Come on now.
Title: A nation to be embarrased about...
Post by: Shades on November 06, 2004, 10:00:31 AM
QuoteYes, America and Mr. Bush have problems, but America and GWB will do our best to fix our problems.

Nuff said boys and girls...I served for over 12 years in both the US Army and US Air Force, AND I don't like to hear insults thrown at our great nation.  Please keep your politics to one of your liberal blogs, not on a backgammon site.
if I read you correctly. Bush lovers are allowed to  throw insults and worse on about very nation , race or religion , and this every day the last months, is acceptable??....  :kill:  
Title: A nation to be embarrased about...
Post by: don on November 06, 2004, 11:06:04 AM
What I see here are people who cannot define self government who are whining about the government they, themselves have empowered.  That goes for the US citizens.  The rest of the world wishes it had a government as enlightened as ours, and the power to do some good in the world other than killing off their own citizens.

I know many are thinking I'm a Bush supporter, but I'm not.  I'm simply saying we get what we deserve.

Does anyone have a constructive suggestion?  I have a few.
Title: A nation to be embarrased about...
Post by: webrunner on November 06, 2004, 05:46:53 PM
QuoteWell Webrunner..I'd like to raise the BS flag...looking at the current "Latest Discussions" and "Recent Articles" on the web page, every topic is about backgammon, or someone we know from FIBS.  The one outlier is Vic's Bush photo, which can be discounted...because, well, it's from Vic.

Something tells me that if someone had something inflamatory to say about you or your country, it wouldn't last very long on the site.   Bottom line, the letter is funny, but with all the abuse thrown at Americans on FIBS, it's gotten old, and downright rude.
Please raise your flag, it suits the argument you are making.

You are dead wrong about me removing posts. :angry:
I get sick and tired of people telling me that i am some kind of censure filter and constantly removing posts on this forum.
I have NEVER removed a post on this board, unless it was sexually explicit or a double-post, or by request of a poster. This happened a total of 4 times!
In fact, i had lunatics even say terrible things about me personally and still i haven't removed stuff like this! (just read the posts of Triple_X for instance.
Another moderater removed a post once, and put iit back up again a few days later.
There is no real censorship here.

Besides, read the forum!

for instance: Are any of the polls about Backgammon??  No..
In fact: only 35% of the posts and topics are about Backgammon. Most of them are about people, the community, the future of fibs, fibs client software,  arguments, avatars, etc. etc. etc.
Personally i would like it of more backgammon stuff was posted . That is why i cteated a new site with a forum, that is only about backgammon.



Title: A nation to be embarrased about...
Post by: socksey on November 06, 2004, 07:42:41 PM
QuoteYes, America and Mr. Bush have problems, but America and GWB will do our best to fix our problems.

Gotsha, I hope you are right.  I also respect that you served in our armed forces, presumably with honor.

The thing that galls me to no end, is that third parties have no chance in this country.  There is only one choice..........Republicrats.  

I am a member of a third party.  I wasn't allowed to vote for my candidate of choice in my state.  He wasn't on the ballot, and I was even denied the ability to write in a vote.  

My candidate was taken to court in several states during the election in order to prevent he and his running mate being on the ballot.  He was also denied participation in the debates.  

As if those things weren't enough, I was forced to listen to how my candidate was  preventing another from winning because he is taking away votes from that  candidate.  What kind of fairness and constitutionality is this?

I am sick over this election.  Where is democracy?  Where is fairness?

I'm an American and I love my country.  If you love our country as much as I do, you would advocate the freedoms we supposedly hold dear, and help to allow my candidate (or any candidate) a fair race.

Oh, and one more thing.  don, who says,
QuoteWhat I see here are people who cannot define self government who are whining about the government they, themselves have empowered.
We no longer are self-governing, my dear.  Our country is controlled, in the final analysis, by corporate America.  Don't kid yourself.

socksey



"Our lives improve only when we take chances -- and the first and most difficult risk we can take is to be honest with ourselves." - Walter Anderson
Title: A nation to be embarrased about...
Post by: don on November 07, 2004, 01:07:37 AM
Hey socks,

while your point
QuoteWe no longer are self-governing, my dear. Our country is controlled, in the final analysis, by corporate America. Don't kid yourself.
is sort of true for practical purposes, it is patently wrong in the absolute sense.  The people have the power to govern effectively, just as they have the power to satiate themselves with bread and circuses.
Title: A nation to be embarrased about...
Post by: socksey on November 07, 2004, 12:23:55 PM
I think you are bein naive, don.  Look again.  We are losing our freedoms right and left and we are becoming powerless to fight those who really control our government.

socksey (one of the fighters)



"In the councils of government, we must guard against the acquisition of unwarranted influence, whether sought or unsought, by the military-industrial complex. The potential for the disastrous rise of misplaced power exists and will persist." ââ,¬â€œ Dwight D. Eisenhower, in his Farewell Address to the nation, January 1961.  Note:  This applies to the corporate complex as well.
 
Title: A nation to be embarrased about...
Post by: Shades on November 07, 2004, 02:59:33 PM
I agree with socksey.. I am not really concerned by how the US is directed.... but a family... ( Bush) who cashed 1.2 billions of dollars by the saudi royal family over the 3o last years ( and continuing doing business with them ) and the same (Bush) who allowed a boing 737 to full of saudis to fly off the US without any control while there was a full flight interdiction over all of the US ... and that same plane having 27 (or 37) of them with the name Bin Laden... well... I wonder in what way I would trust his equity to lead such a great country as the USA....   :(  
Title: A nation to be embarrased about...
Post by: EddieVedd on November 08, 2004, 08:06:20 AM
From the other side of the world where our pathetically scare mongered population duplicated the lunacy of Bush's re-election (PM Howard re-instated with an increased majority) ...........Thank )*&%*^%# it's over !!

A Ralph Nader quote, the person i believe Socksey to be speaking of, which Eddie Vedder (lead singer of Pearljam) wrote a song about called "Down".

"you can't be neutral on a moving train...."

God bless the world 'cause sure as merde Bush wont, no matter how pseudo Christian he claims to be !!

:grrr:  :grrr:  :grrr:  :grrr:

What a devestating, sad, gut wrenching, JOKE !!!

:eeeek:  
Title: A nation to be embarrased about...
Post by: don on November 08, 2004, 07:53:00 PM
I agree that our constitutional freedoms are under attack.  Incursions by the patriot act as well as Bush/moral-majority attempts to legislate morality are a couple of the reasons I could not bring myself to vote for Bush.  (FYI:  I didn't vote for Kerry either.)

However, I maintain my position that the problems of US government are due to citizen ignorance and apathy.  We citizens still have the power to govern ourselves effectively.  We just give up that power without a fight, and tend to blame the politicians we hand over our government to.  "Gee, we can't do anything about it," is the battle-whine of Americans as we complacently watch our nation go down the tubes.   I don't consider it idealistic to recognize that our problems are our fault, and not the fault of those who take advantage of us with our uninformed advice and consent.
Title: A nation to be embarrased about...
Post by: Bondy on November 08, 2004, 08:03:05 PM
QuoteThe rest of the world wishes it had a government as enlightened as ours
Don, before I fly off the handle at you for this comment, would you care to explain it for me please?  Specifically, in what way is your government enlightened that mine isn't (for reference, I'm Australian)?  I would like to point out that as a constituent of "the rest of the world," I do not wish for the American government, in whole or part, or anything that resembles it.
Title: A nation to be embarrased about...
Post by: lewscannon on November 08, 2004, 09:31:29 PM
While I, as a proud American, think that Dorbel's comments are, as the British put it 'spot on', have one question: if baseball isn't such a great game, why is the championship called the 'World Series'?

Heh, heh, this should get things started :P  
Title: A nation to be embarrased about...
Post by: Shades on November 09, 2004, 12:14:06 AM
QuoteWhile I, as a proud American, think that Dorbel's comments are, as the British put it 'spot on', have one question: if baseball isn't such a great game, why is the championship called the 'World Series'?

Heh, heh, this should get things started :P
:(   because you think america IS the world???    :rolleyes:  
Title: A nation to be embarrased about...
Post by: don on November 09, 2004, 01:07:25 AM
Ya' caught me in the act of hyperbole, Bondy.  It's a disease which is running rampant here.  Be that as it may, I stand by what I said in a general sense, if not universal.  You'd probably be more forgiving if you didn't have to suffer through life drinking Fosters.
Title: A nation to be embarrased about...
Post by: Bondy on November 09, 2004, 08:00:09 AM
Who drinks Fosters?  We've got the Malt Shovel, Little Creatures, and Coopers breweries over here.  Wouldn't touch Fosters with a barge-pole!

Anyway, beer has nothing to do with it.  I'm not venting some idle frustration; I take immediate and grave offense to your implication that the American government is in any way better than mine.  If I ran around telling you that Maoist China's government was more 'enlightened' than yours, you'd probably take similar offense.
Title: A nation to be embarrased about...
Post by: gogogiz on November 09, 2004, 05:30:24 PM
:guitar:
Title: A nation to be embarrased about...
Post by: BladeRunner on November 09, 2004, 05:59:37 PM
Dedicated to vqs and Biggles
Title: A nation to be embarrased about...
Post by: BladeRunner on November 09, 2004, 06:00:38 PM
Dedicated to vqs and Biggles
Title: A nation to be embarrased about...
Post by: NIHILIST on November 10, 2004, 04:29:52 AM
While all of the preceding comments are interesting, they offer no insight into why Bush won and Kerry lost. Sadly, the post-mortems are as laden with the same I HATE BUSH rhetoric as the discussions on FIBS leading up to the election.

In trying to understand the outcome, it is important to note that the majority of voters in the largest turnout in American history voted for the guy that you people profess to despise. Are all 55 million Bush voters dumber than you are ? Is it possible that YOU are on the wrong side of the issues ?

The things that should really concern you as Democrats is that, once again, your party nominated a liberal from Massachusetts who promptly went out and got stomped. Of more concern to you as Democrats, and to the integrity of the two-party system in America, is that this election confirmed that the Democratic Party is no longer a NATIONAL party. What they stand for, what they say, no longer resonates outside of the traditional liberal bastions of California and the Northeast. Even traditional labor/farm strongholds like Michigan and Minnesota were closer than anyone might have anticipated.

Other achievements of note; Republicans took every open Senate seat in the South, all five of them previously held by Democrats. For the first time in 50 years, a sitting Senate party leader, a Democrat, was defeated. In the House, two prominent incumbent Democrat congressmen in Texas went down. Also in the House, a grand total of ONE incumbent Republican was defeated.

Gay marriage was repudiated in every state where it was a ballot issue. This represents not only the voters' feelings on this issue, but also their feelings about activist judiciaries imposing this kind of value on society ala Massachusetts.

None of this was an accident.

While I prefer the outcome of the election to the alternative, I don't take any great joy in it. America is more polarized now than it has been since the '60s. Real issues have gone un-addressed by BOTH parties and I see no evidence that will change.

However, once again I have hope that a President with no concern about re-election, and control of both houses of Congress, will have the guts to lead in finding solutions to at least some of these problems.

SOCIAL SECURITY: In 10 years, my generation starts cashing out. This means that the number of recipients will double from the present 40 million. The impact of this is not even being discused.

TAX CODE: The current system is bloated, incomprehensible, and generally despised by one and all. We've been promised simplification for years with no result. There are plenty of alternatives available that would make the system more fair to all.

OUR ROLE IN THE WORLD: Like it or not, absent an effective United Nations, America will be increasingly called on to intervene in flashpoint areas around the world. A rational, consistent policy is long overdue. Where is the morality in intervening in the Balkans to stop genocide of white Europeans while ignoring genocide of black Africans in Rwanda ? This one may be the most difficult of all. It is by now apparent that the UN is a lame player and it's unrealistic to count on the nations of Europe whose defense we guarantee anyway.

Thanks for indulging me and shalom.


NIHI
Title: A nation to be embarrased about...
Post by: don on November 10, 2004, 06:03:50 AM
The important thing, NIHI, is to remember that Kerry's supporters would have supported a popsicle if running against Dubya.  They didn't supported Kerry, they hated Bush.  They had nothing to offer as an alternative.
Title: A nation to be embarrased about...
Post by: BladeRunner on November 10, 2004, 06:25:53 AM
QuoteWhile all of the preceding comments are interesting, they offer no insight into why Bush won and Kerry lost.
Read the very first post in this thread, where, as clear as crystal, the reasons WHY are there! Maybe you have a blindfold {mindfold?} while reading, Bob.
Title: A nation to be embarrased about...
Post by: Shades on November 10, 2004, 09:05:46 AM
History done over again...   :blink:  
Title: A nation to be embarrased about...
Post by: amarganth on November 10, 2004, 04:59:45 PM
If America IS the world, this would be the result of a worlwide election:

:D


Title: A nation to be embarrased about...
Post by: spielberg on November 10, 2004, 05:17:34 PM
Bush's victory is best explained by the republicans superiority in the GOTV (get out the vote) campaign. They were aided in this by the extremely clever addition of the "do you approve of gay marriages" addition to the poll in 13 states (including some swing states) which helped get out the "christian" vote.

It will be interesting to see what Bush does with his second term - the demographics and budget deficit both demand some action yet I suspect will remain unadressed. It will be even more fun for a non american to watch the row which will erupt when he tries to change the supreme court - tho' I doubt even he will dare to take on Roe v Wade  (a womans right to an abortion)

What this election demonstrated to me , a european , is the massive influence religion and faith still have in the US. It's strange , America professes to be secular yet is fundamentally much , much more religious than Europe.
Title: A nation to be embarrased about...
Post by: NIHILIST on November 10, 2004, 05:47:07 PM
Good observations. I also doubt that Roe will be overturned.


NIHI
Title: A nation to be embarrased about...
Post by: Zorba on November 10, 2004, 07:21:52 PM
Religion in the USA often looks like religion in the Netherlands somewhere around 1950 or even long before that.

Perhaps immigrants have a tendency to hang on to old cultural and religious habits and this hampers development....

This is not only true for the USA!
Title: A nation to be embarrased about...
Post by: lewscannon on November 10, 2004, 08:08:48 PM
Good thing that our God is better than their God.
Title: A nation to be embarrased about...
Post by: Shades on November 10, 2004, 08:51:18 PM
QuoteGood thing that our God is better than their God.
:o ....OH MY GOD...!!!     :eeeek:  
Title: A nation to be embarrased about...
Post by: don on November 11, 2004, 12:02:13 AM
Spielberg, one indicator of US religion is the fact that 45% of Americans believe that man was created by god sometime in the last 10,000 years.  Which brings up the appalling state of science ed. in the US:  In a recent survey, 90% of Harvard grads think that summer is warmer because the Earth is closer to the sun.

Title: A nation to be embarrased about...
Post by: BladeRunner on November 11, 2004, 06:11:52 AM
Here's the average IQ by state and how they voted - (according to the Ravens APM)

                                   ................. .................AVG IQ....... AVG Income USD .................     04 Electoral
(01) Connecticut................. 113.................                        $26,979 .................               Kerry
(02) Massachusetts............. 111.................                        $24,059.................                Kerry
(03) New Jersey..................111 .................                       $26,457.................                Kerry
(04) New York.................... 109  .................                      $23,534 .................               Kerry
(05) Rhode Island................107 .................                      $20,299 .................                Kerry
(06) Hawaii......................... 106 .................                      $21,218 .................                Kerry
(07) Maryland..................... 105.................                        $22,974.................                Kerry
(08) New Hampshire.............105 .................                      $22,934 .................                Kerry
(09) Illinois.....................     104 .................                       $21,608.................                Kerry
(10) Delaware.................... 103 .................                       $21,451.................                 Kerry
(11) Minnesota..................  102.................                         $20,049 .................               Kerry
(12) Vermont..................... 102 .................                       $18,834 .................                Kerry
(13) Washington.................102.................                         $20,398 .................                Kerry
(14) California..................  101.................                         $21,278.................                 Kerry
(15) Pennsylvania...............101.................                         $20,253.................                 Kerry
(16) Maine........................ 100 .................                         $18,226.................                 Kerry
(17) Wisconsin...................100.................                          $18,727 .................                Kerry
(18) Virginia...................... 100.................                         $20,629 .................                Bush
(19) Iowa.........................  99 .................                          $18,287.................                 Kerry
(20) Oregon......................  99 .................                         $18,202.................                  Kerry
(21) Colorado..................... 99 .................                         $20,124 .................                 Bush
(22) Michigan....................  99  .................                         $19,508.................                  Bush
(23) Nevada....................... 99 .................                         $20,266 .................                  Bush
(24) Ohio............................ 99  .................                        $18,624 .................                 Bush
(25) Alaska......................... 98 .................                         $21,603.................                  Bush
(26) Florida......................    98 .................                         $19,397.................                  Bush
(27) Missouri.....................   98 .................                        $18,835 .................                  Bush
(28) Kansas.......................  96 .................                        $19,376 .................                  Bush
(29) Nebraska..................... 95.................                          $19,084 .................                 Bush
30) Arizona........................  94 .................                         $17,119.................                  Bush
(31) Indiana......................   94 .................                         $18,043.................                  Bush
(32) Tennessee....................94  .................                        $17,341 .................                  Bush
(33) North Carolina...............93.................                          $17,667 .................                  Bush
(34) West Virginia................93 .................                          $15,065 .................                  Bush
(35) Arkansas..................... 92 .................                          $15,439 .................                  Bush
(36) Georgia...................... 92.................                            $18,130 .................                  Bush
(37) Kentucky.....................92 .................                           $16,534 .................                  Bush
(38) New Mexico.................92 .................                            $15,353 .................                  Bush
(39) North Dakota................92.................                            $16,854.................                   Bush
(40) Texas........................  92 .................                            $17,892 .................                 Bush
(41) Alabama......................90 .................                            $16,220.................                  Bush
(42) Louisiana....................90 .................                             $15,712.................                  Bush
(43) Montana......................90 .................                             $16,062.................                 Bush
(44) Oklahoma....................90 .................                           $16,198 .................                 Bush
(45) South Dakota...............90.................                              $16,558.................                 Bush
(46) South Carolina..............89.................                              $15,989.................                 Bush
(47) Wyoming.....................89 .................                              $17,423 .................                Bush
(48) Idaho........................  87 .................                              $16,067 .................                Bush
(49) Utah.........................   87.................                               $15,325 .................                Bush
(50) Mississippi..................85 .................                               $14,088 .................                 Bush
..................................Bush...................... IQ: 91 :no:
..................................Kerry.... .................IQ: 128 :yes:
Retarded is considered 75-85.
Title: A nation to be embarrased about...
Post by: BladeRunner on November 11, 2004, 07:51:38 AM


 http://72.3.131.10/gallery/1/ (http://72.3.131.10/gallery/1/)

This site is a great addition to this thread where I prove that what I posted in the first text is true.
The cool :cool: , fun :rolleyes: and intelligent B) Americans dislike the monkey of a President this Nation has been imposed upon, by IQ reduced citizens that insist in war, invasion of small countries and their love for coorporate money versus the civil and moral values in a society.
Enjoy the pics in the above URL.    
Title: A nation to be embarrased about...
Post by: NIHILIST on November 11, 2004, 06:37:02 PM
Wow, all those intellectuals and they managed to nominate the emptiest suit in the senate !!!

All those geniuses and they cant figure out how to beat a dummy !!

Give me a low IQ, high income plumber who has a grasp of street-smarts and common sense any day.


NIHI
Title: A nation to be embarrased about...
Post by: Zorba on November 12, 2004, 12:19:36 AM
We're not talking about a sink that needs to be repaired, we're talking about someone who's supposed to lead a large powerful country.

A little intelligence doesn't hurt for that job.

Street-smart doesn't get you very far in international politics, despite the image television might give you...

Your nitwit president GW Bush is a slave to all his high(er) IQ advisors and as such a puppet to the big corporations and other lobbyists.
Title: A nation to be embarrased about...
Post by: soky on November 12, 2004, 06:35:18 AM
Bladerunner, I really think this IQ stuff is a hoax. Do you have any sources?
Only 3% of a population have a IQ higher as 128, it just can't be the average IQ of a Kerry voter.
87 for Utat - I doubt it too - that would mean, the average Utah citizen has a lower IQ than 84% of the USA citizens.
The correlation between IQ and voting is much too high, culture should be more important.
So - I'm pretty sure it's a fake.
Title: A nation to be embarrased about...
Post by: soky on November 12, 2004, 06:46:41 AM
And for all the map loving fibsters:
http://www-personal.umich.edu/~mejn/election/ (http://www-personal.umich.edu/~mejn/election/)
It shows that there's a really huge correlation between urban/rural and Kerry/Bush.

Are there more people living in rural areas than in the past?
Or has the whole population shifted to the right wing?
Title: A nation to be embarrased about...
Post by: BladeRunner on November 12, 2004, 05:33:31 PM
Dear Friends,

Ok, it sucks. Really sucks. But before you go and cash it all in, let's, in
the words of Monty Python, 'always look on the bright side of life!' There
IS some good news from Tuesday's election.

Here are 17 reasons not to slit your wrists:

1. It is against the law for George W. Bush to run for president again.

2. Bush's victory was the NARROWEST win for a sitting president since
Woodrow Wilson in 1916.

3. The only age group in which the majority voted for Kerry was young adults
(Kerry: 54%, Bush: 44%), proving once again that your parents are always
wrong and you should never listen to them.

4. In spite of Bush's win, the majority of Americans still think the
country is headed in the wrong direction (56%), think the war wasn't worth fighting (51%), and don't approve of the job George W. Bush is doing (52%). (Note to foreigners: Don't try to figure this one out.  It's an American thing, like Pop Tarts.)

5. The Republicans will not have a filibuster-proof 60-seat majority in the
Senate. If the Democrats do their job, Bush won't be able to pack the
Supreme Court with right-wing ideologues. Did I say "if the Democrats do
their job?" Um, maybe better to scratch this one.

6. Michigan voted for Kerry! So did the entire Northeast, the birthplace of
our democracy. So did 6 of the 8 Great Lakes States. And the whole West
Coast! Plus Hawaii. Ok, that's a start. We've got most of the fresh water,
all of Broadway, and Mt. St. Helens. We can dehydrate them or bury them in
lava. And no more show tunes!

7. Once again we are reminded that the buckeye is a nut, and not just any
old nut -- a poisonous nut. A great nation was felled by a poisonous nut.
May Ohio State pay dearly this Saturday when it faces Michigan.

8. 88% of Bush's support came from white voters. In 50 years, America will
no longer have a white majority. Hey, 50 years isn't such a long time! If
you're ten years old and reading this, your golden years will be truly
golden and you will be well cared for in your old age.

9. Gays, thanks to the ballot measures passed on Tuesday, cannot get married
in 11 new states. Thank God. Just think of all those wedding gifts we won't
have to buy now.

10. Five more African Americans were elected as members of Congress,
including the return of Cynthia McKinney of Georgia. It's always good to
have more blacks in there fighting for us and doing the job our candidates
can't.

11. The CEO of Coors was defeated for Senate in Colorado. Drink up!

12. Admit it: We like the Bush twins and we don't want them to go away.

13. At the state legislative level, Democrats picked up a net of at least 3
chambers in Tuesday's elections. Of the 98 partisan-controlled state
legislative chambers (house/assembly and senate), Democrats went into the
2004 elections in control of 44 chambers, Republicans controlled 53
chambers, and 1 chamber was tied. After Tuesday, Democrats now control 47
chambers, Republicans control 49 chambers, 1 chamber is tied and 1 chamber
(Montana House) is still undecided.

14. Bush is now a lame duck president. He will have no greater moment than
the one he's having this week. It's all downhill for him from here on out --
and, more significantly, he's just not going to want to do all the hard work
that will be expected of him. It'll be like everyone's last month in 12th
grade -- you've already made it, so it's party time! Perhaps he'll treat the
next four years like a permanent Friday, spending even more time at the
ranch or in Kennebunkport. And why shouldn't he? He's already proved his
point, avenged his father and kicked our ass.

15. Should Bush decide to show up to work and take this country down a very
dark road, it is also just as likely that either of the following two
scenarios will happen: a) Now that he doesn't ever need to pander to the
Christian conservatives again to get elected, someone may whisper in his ear
that he should spend these last four years building "a legacy" so that
history will render a kinder verdict on him and thus he will not push for
too aggressive a right-wing agenda; or B) He will become so cocky and
arrogant -- and thus, reckless -- that he will commit a blunder of such
major proportions that even his own party will have to remove him from
office.

16. There are nearly 300 million Americans -- 200 million of them of voting
age. We only lost by three and a half million! That's not a landslide -- it
means we're almost there. Imagine losing by 20 million. If you had 58 yards
to go before you reached the goal line and then you barreled down 55 of
those yards, would you stop on the three yard line, pick up the ball and go
home crying -- especially when you get to start the next down on the three
yard line? Of course not! Buck up! Have hope! More sports analogies are
coming!!!

17. Finally and most importantly, over 55 million Americans voted for the
candidate dubbed "The #1 Liberal in the Senate." That's more than the total
number of voters who voted for either Reagan, Bush I, Clinton or Gore.
Again, more people voted for Kerry than Reagan. If the media are looking for
a trend it should be this -- that so many Americans were, for the first time
since Kennedy, willing to vote for an out-and-out liberal. The country has
always been filled with evangelicals -- that is not news. What IS news is
that so many people have shifted toward a Massachusetts liberal. In fact,
that's BIG news. Which means, don't expect the mainstream media, the ones
who brought you the Iraq War, to ever report the real truth about November
2, 2004. In fact, it's better that they don't. We'll need the element of
surprise in 2008.

Feeling better? I hope so. As my friend Mort wrote me yesterday, "My
Romanian grandfather used to say to me, 'Remember, Morton, this is such a
wonderful country  -- it doesn't even need a president!'"

But it needs us. Rest up, I'll write you again tomorrow.

Yours,

Michael Moore
MMFlint@aol.com
www.michaelmoore.com