hello @ll!
hallo @lle!
due to dons gag - he is not permitted to shout for an indefinite time - i am
unsure in answering the question: how to behave on fibs?
aufgrund dons verbannung - er darf fuer unbestimmte zeit nicht schreien
(naja ;) - bin ich unsicher, was die frage angeht:
wie benimmt frau/mann sich auf fibs?
immediately the *free-don-movement* arose. but in best times we were not
more then 20 nicks :) our *free-don-shouts* were ignored or objected to. we
were told, he was begging to be punished :)) and i asked myself: *why
doesn't he ask to be ungagged?*
sofort ist die *befreie-don-bewegung* entstanden. aber in den besten zeiten
waren wir nicht mehr als 20 spitznamen :) unsere *befreie-don-rufe* wurden
ignoriert oder es wurde ihnen widersprochen. uns wurde erzaehlt, er habe
gefleht, bestraft zu werden :)) und ich habe mich selbst gefragt: *warum
fleht er nicht darum, wieder schreien zu duerfen?*
then i consulted a lawyer**) and he told me *read the law and you will know,
what is right.* and *the owner of a server has all rights.*
dann habe ich einen anwalt konzertiert und er meinte *ein blick ins
gesetzbuch erleichtert die rechtsfindung* und *die/der eigentuemerIn eines
servers hat alle rechte.*
so i finally found the rules:
the greeting formula at fibslogin gives some borders:
also habe ich die regeln dann auch gefunden:
die grussformel beim fibseinloggen zeigt einige grenzen auf:
> this server is on the net to meet people from all countries.
- yeah - i enjoy it - btw i am improving english and slang
> dieser server ist im internet, damit menschen aus allen laendern sich
> treffen koennen.
- ja - das gefaellt mir - nebenbei lerne ich auch englisch und
umgangssprache
> all sorts of racists and fascists are not allowed to login here!
- i saw this the first time login at fibs and was happy to read such a broad
hint.
- das habe ich gleich gesehen, als ich mich zum ersten mal angemeldet habe
und es hat mir sehr gefallen, solch deutlichen hinweis zu lesen.
> rude language will not be tolerated on this server. Be nice.
- rude language is not defined, or is it? so i decided: rude words are not
found in the normal dictionary ( http://dict.tu-chemnitz.de ) but in
urban dictionary ( http://www.urbandictionary.com/ ) or in *uses of the
word ####* (
http://justin.justnet.com.au/rudestuff/uses-of-the-word-####.html ) and
slang sometimes is not rude - makes the stuff difficult.
if i am true, rude language is written sometimes but not punished.
> unhoefliche sprache wird auf diesem server nicht toleriert. sei nett.
- unhoefliche sprache ist nicht definiert, oder? also habe ich fuer mich
beschlossen: unhoefliches ist nicht in einem normalen woerterbuch zu finden
( http://dict.tu-chemnitz.de ) aber bei urban dictionairy (das heisst halt
so;) ( http://www.urbandictionary.com/ ) oder in *uses of the
word ####* (
http://justin.justnet.com.au/rudestuff/uses-of-the-word-####.html ) und
umgangssprache ist manchmal nicht unhoefliche - was die sache erschwert.
wenn ich mich nicht sehr irre, wird unhoefliche sprache manchmal schon
geschrieben, aber es wird nicht geahndet.
conclusion: reduced to the question:
what exactly did don do wrong?
so i know what's not allowed.
fazit: reduziert auf die frage:
was genau hat don falsch gemacht?
dann weiss ich, was nicht erlaubt ist
cassandra
+++++
**)
(we are still collecting to pay his bill ;)
(wir sammeln immernoch, um seine rechnung zu bezahlen ;)
+++++
post scriptum:
what's to say about the user *hitler*? i complained about him because of the nick
on repbot, but since i am not playing her/him , i can't complain about
her/him now ...
post scriptum:
was gibt es ueber den benutzer/die benutzerin *hitler* zu sagen? ich habe
ihn aufgrund des spitznamens beim repbot angezeigt, da ich mit ihr/ihm nicht
spiele, kann ich ihn jetzt nicht mehr anzeigen ...
Quote from: cassandra on July 01, 2008, 12:58:24 AM
hello @ll!
hallo @lle!
due to dons gag - he is not permitted to shout for an indefinite time - i am
unsure in answering the question: how to behave on fibs?
aufgrund dons verbannung - er darf fuer unbestimmte zeit nicht schreien
(naja ;) - bin ich unsicher, was die frage angeht:
wie benimmt frau/mann sich auf fibs?
immediately the *free-don-movement* arose. but in best times we were not
more then 20 nicks :) our *free-don-shouts* were ignored or objected to. we
were told, he was begging to be punished :)) and i asked myself: *why
doesn't he ask to be ungagged?*
sofort ist die *befreie-don-bewegung* entstanden. aber in den besten zeiten
waren wir nicht mehr als 20 spitznamen :) unsere *befreie-don-rufe* wurden
ignoriert oder es wurde ihnen widersprochen. uns wurde erzaehlt, er habe
gefleht, bestraft zu werden :)) und ich habe mich selbst gefragt: *warum
fleht er nicht darum, wieder schreien zu duerfen?*
then i consulted a lawyer**) and he told me *read the law and you will know,
what is right.* and *the owner of a server has all rights.*
dann habe ich einen anwalt konzertiert und er meinte *ein blick ins
gesetzbuch erleichtert die rechtsfindung* und *die/der eigentuemerIn eines
servers hat alle rechte.*
so i finally found the rules:
the greeting formula at fibslogin gives some borders:
also habe ich die regeln dann auch gefunden:
die grussformel beim fibseinloggen zeigt einige grenzen auf:
> this server is on the net to meet people from all countries.
- yeah - i enjoy it - btw i am improving english and slang
> dieser server ist im internet, damit menschen aus allen laendern sich
> treffen koennen.
- ja - das gefaellt mir - nebenbei lerne ich auch englisch und
umgangssprache
> all sorts of racists and fascists are not allowed to login here!
- i saw this the first time login at fibs and was happy to read such a broad
hint.
- das habe ich gleich gesehen, als ich mich zum ersten mal angemeldet habe
und es hat mir sehr gefallen, solch deutlichen hinweis zu lesen.
> rude language will not be tolerated on this server. Be nice.
- rude language is not defined, or is it? so i decided: rude words are not
found in the normal dictionary ( http://dict.tu-chemnitz.de ) but in
urban dictionary ( http://www.urbandictionary.com/ ) or in *uses of the
word ####* (
http://justin.justnet.com.au/rudestuff/uses-of-the-word-####.html ) and
slang sometimes is not rude - makes the stuff difficult.
if i am true, rude language is written sometimes but not punished.
> unhoefliche sprache wird auf diesem server nicht toleriert. sei nett.
- unhoefliche sprache ist nicht definiert, oder? also habe ich fuer mich
beschlossen: unhoefliches ist nicht in einem normalen woerterbuch zu finden
( http://dict.tu-chemnitz.de ) aber bei urban dictionairy (das heisst halt
so;) ( http://www.urbandictionary.com/ ) oder in *uses of the
word ####* (
http://justin.justnet.com.au/rudestuff/uses-of-the-word-####.html ) und
umgangssprache ist manchmal nicht unhoefliche - was die sache erschwert.
wenn ich mich nicht sehr irre, wird unhoefliche sprache manchmal schon
geschrieben, aber es wird nicht geahndet.
conclusion: reduced to the question:
what exactly did don do wrong?
so i know what's not allowed.
fazit: reduziert auf die frage:
was genau hat don falsch gemacht?
dann weiss ich, was nicht erlaubt ist
cassandra
+++++
**)
(we are still collecting to pay his bill ;)
(wir sammeln immernoch, um seine rechnung zu bezahlen ;)
+++++
post scriptum:
what's to say about the user *hitler*? i complained about him because of the nick
on repbot, but since i am not playing her/him , i can't complain about
her/him now ...
post scriptum:
was gibt es ueber den benutzer/die benutzerin *hitler* zu sagen? ich habe
ihn aufgrund des spitznamens beim repbot angezeigt, da ich mit ihr/ihm nicht
spiele, kann ich ihn jetzt nicht mehr anzeigen ...
I'm with you cassie, wholeheartedly :thumbsup:
I hope all of fibsters keep their friendship and enjoy a joyfull companion.
Regards
You should not discriminate anybody because of his name.
Oder was kann der arme hitler dafür, dass er hitler heißt.
Und niemand kann sich das Haus aussuchen, in dem er geboren wird.
You can only talk this naively since you obviously have never been stalked by Don. It definitely sucks when he keeps contacting you in all available channels (tell, message, shout, even email) for weeks and month, despite the fact you already clearly responded to him and repeatedly asked to give it a rest. As for what exactly Don does in his attempts to contact you, NIHO had a pretty precise definition in the very debate which lead to his most recent ban: "Don would argue with a tree stump, and accuse it of flaming him."
So if you talk to a lawyer, please ask him what the legal situation for stalkers is. You should also give your lawyer the information that Don already was banned at least twice before for the very same reasons. One time it was a full ban for 6 month of his nick "don", the other time a permanent ban of his sock puppet "TDBot", which he used to circumvent permagags.
For myself, I am on his "to stalk" list for only a few month now and already puke, but Patti is on it for years. So I actually admire her calmness and sufferability. Always keep in mind Don only pretends to talk about an issue (in this case racism), in reality he is a lot more interested in the stalking and flaming part.
Quoteconclusion: reduced to the question: what exactly did don do wrong? so i know what's not allowed.
Depends entirely on who you flame. :lol: I can't imagine anyone would ban you, dear cassandra! :)
socksey
Quote from: inim on July 01, 2008, 12:54:18 PM
You can only talk this naively since you obviously have never been stalked by Don. It definitely sucks when he keeps contacting you in all available channels (tell, message, shout, even email) for weeks and month, despite the fact you already clearly responded to him and repeatedly asked to give it a rest. As for what exactly Don does in his attempts to contact you, NIHO had a pretty precise definition in the very debate which lead to his most recent ban: "Don would argue with a tree stump, and accuse it of flaming him."
So if you talk to a lawyer, please ask him what the legal situation for stalkers is. You should also give your lawyer the information that Don already was banned at least twice before for the very same reasons. One time it was a full ban for 6 month of his nick "don", the other time a permanent ban of his sock puppet "TDBot", which he used to circumvent permagags.
For myself, I am on his "to stalk" list for only a few month now and already puke, but Patti is on it for years. So I actually admire her calmness and sufferability. Always keep in mind Don only pretends to talk about an issue (in this case racism), in reality he is a lot more interested in the stalking and flaming part.
This is inim's typical nonsense. Nobody is interested in what has been your personal problems with don, or other fibsters. If don is bothering you via tells, messages, e-mails and other channels, banning don from shouting won't help you. And if you find his shouts as bothering and annoying as your own, simply gag him. This is the most logical and reasonable solution: everyone having a problem with don's shouts, gag him. But server-gagging don and letting his enemies to insult and mock him on purpose in shouts, knowing his inablity to respond is really a cruel and illogical thing, unacceptable and repugnant.
By the way, I really don't know what was the issue between Patti and don that night which caused don's server-gagging. Rumors say that don himself had asked Patti to gag him, if this is the case, then no objection is justified.
Regards
Quote from: PersianLord on July 01, 2008, 03:17:00 PM
If don is bothering you via tells, messages, e-mails and other channels, banning don from shouting won't help you.
The difference here is that he didn't bother a mere mortal, but her Pattiness. So she can ban him from shout, and she did it. I don't think this is only a response to that night's actual debate. She is well aware of Don stalking other fibsters (including but not limited to herself), and he shows this behaviour for years. Patti isn't just involved as a person but also as the shepard of the community.
She also surely HAS tangible workload because people stalked by Don complain to her about it. Patti has a long tradition in removing causes before symptoms, a valid way to save a hell of a lot of time in fixing issues.
So assuming she reacted to that specific shout battle is naive (only Patti knows for sure, of course). What she did is a verdict, giving Don a reminder that they in length communicated about his personality disorder and the problems it creates for her as an administrator. He agreed to give it a rest, but relapsed into old behaviour he solemnly swore to control to undo his first ban. He literally is on probation and violated the terms of that probation.
Quote from: PersianLord on July 01, 2008, 03:17:00 PM
server-gagging don and letting the kinds of vic to insult and mock him on purpose in shouts, knowing his inablity to respond is really a cruel and illogical thing, unacceptable and repugnant.
Consider that as an intended punishment for Don because he broke his promise to control his behaviour, and even worse to do that using especially the administrator as a target.
Quote from: PersianLord on July 01, 2008, 03:17:00 PM
By the way, I really don't know what was the issue between Patti and don that night which caused don's server-gagging.
Check you mail, I will send you the logs. There is no need for guessing, fortunately.
There's no reason to check logs, inim. Here's the relevant shouts (I leave it to the reader to figure who's log this is...):
Quotedon shouts: Interesting how it only takes 2-3 racists to shut down reasonable conversation.
FrankZoid shouts: righto don, end the racism
You shout: whats wrong with racism ?
FrankZoid shouts: bad for the soul
You shout: whose soul ?
FrankZoid shouts: the owner of the racism
don shouts: What's wrong with racism? LOL. Other than it's not supposed to be be tolerated here, it's sick, wrong, ignorant, and foolish.
donzaemon shouts: Frank you know what is really bad for the soul, creating continuing arguments with people for no reason but you want to argue and keep it going .... do a study of don , and see what you find
FrankZoid shouts: it's a sure sign of stupidity
donzaemon shouts: he takes any moral highground he can find , but doesn't usually believe it
donzaemon shouts: just so he can get an argument brewing
You shout: lol
FrankZoid shouts: I agree, aruing is not the way to go
You shout: you got that right
FrankZoid shouts: unlesss you are right
donzaemon shouts: lol
donzaemon shouts: well , don is ALWAYS right , just ask him
don shouts: Or do those who are currently shouting racist (towel-head in this case) crap think that Eskimos or chimpanzees would act differntly if they were sitting on the world's oil reserves? Perhaps if it was Aryans, it'd be OK?
FrankZoid shouts: don, what say you
zackf shouts: and of course, the retoprt to the typical Fibs greeting: "You say how are you, good luck, but you don't mean it"
zackf shouts: retort
don shouts: I say I despise racists, Frank.
FrankZoid shouts: I agree, but waht of donz point?
donzaemon shouts: anyway , it might be good to keep him on gag for those of you who are new to his antics , he deliberately tries to draw you in and keep things going , gag him early and life is good
don shouts: donzamon made a point? Sorry, reiterate it, I musta filtered it thru his crap.
You shout: frank, stick around long enough, youll find that don will argue with a tree stump, and accuse the stump of flaming him
FrankZoid shouts: not sure it merits tat
FrankZoid shouts: that, drat, splat
don shouts: Note that I named no names, just commented on racism, and look who flamed, Frank.
Patti shouts: don, give it a rest already. It's not your job to police behavior on FIBS.
don shouts: Patti, I thought that shouts weren't policed, except possibly for racist comment. My mistake.
Patti shouts: You already know what my opinion is of your disruptive behavior.
don shouts: Oh, I'm sorry. I'm not supposed to shout about NIHo. I forgot when he shouted about me.
don shouts: My mistake, Patti.
Mort shouts: behavior is probably better when don's not logged in
donzaemon shouts: it's always better when don is not logged in ....
Mort shouts: anyone agree with that, say aye.......
Patti shouts: Nay
Mort shouts: don's got a big fan base tonight
don shouts: Say Patti, can I occasionally respond when jerks like donzaemon flame me by name? Say one in 10, I respond? Same same for rollingfool?
Mort shouts: l've seen things damn quiet when don is missing
Patti shouts: If you stopped responding, don, they'd stop bothering.
Mort shouts: he hasn't understood that for 10 years. why would he start now
donzaemon shouts: understood what ?
don shouts: You must be right, Patti. If nobody objected to racism, there would be no objection to racism. My bad.
donzaemon shouts: I miss a lot at times like this , but I'd rather miss than take don off gag
donzaemon shouts: I've had don gagged for what , 2 years now , and I still hear the aftermath of his baiting me
Patti shouts: don, do you really think that your taking a stand in shouts is going to change anything?
janitorb shouts: i brought my mop
don shouts: I apologize to all who use racist terms like "rag head", "nigger", (use your imagination). I was wrong to suggest you might be racist, and that FIBS might have some kind of objection to your sick philosophy.
janitorb shouts: don is right patti. fibs is a disgrace. what are you going to do about it?
Patti shouts: No, don, you were wrong for assumign that it was your job to say anything about it on FIBS. You already know better.
janitorb shouts: a travesty and an insult to decent folk everywhere; it should not be tolerated
FrankZoid shouts: who is Pati?
Patti shouts: What are you proposing, janitorb?
don shouts: Sorry Patti, I'll not quote FIBS anymore.
janitorb shouts: fibs should be abolished this minute. we can no longer tolerate such filth
You shout: janitorb is here to mop the floors
Patti shouts: You log off first, janitor. I'm sure everyone will follow if they agree.
Patti shouts: FrankZoid, you're (quite literally) in my house.
FrankZoid shouts: I see, you are FIBS?
don shouts: For some reason, "All sorts of racists and fascists are not allowed to login here!" shows up every time I login to FIBS Patti. It must be my computer. Or should I not quote that?
janitorb shouts: first you should blow me don
Patti shouts: No, don, you should not. You already know that.
janitorb shouts: then you can do what quote what you want
don shouts: I'm sorry Patti, but I don't "already know" that I shouldn't quote the famous FIBS opening message.
Patti shouts: don, how many times have I told you that it's not your job to police behavior on FIBS? For how many years?
rollingfool shouts: patti, don't get sucked into a don style argument
don shouts: Patti, how am I policing behavior? I'm just agreeing with the opening message? To police behavior, I'd need power of arrest, or ban.
rollingfool shouts: mort and donz have been teaching me
rollingfool shouts: see, now he is baiting you, faking ignorance to get your attention
don shouts: rollingfool and vegasvic are policing behavior when they tell me to STFU.
rollingfool shouts: it's so transparent!
Patti shouts: don, give it up. You're closing in on the noshout list.
don shouts: NIHO is policing behavior when he rips my identity and brags about it
rollingfool shouts: now the tells start
janitorb shouts: nobody could rip you harder than you rip yourself don
janitorb shouts: and i pray you never stop
sale shouts: Seems to me that don is not FIBS friend:)
You shout: oh, the pathos
don shouts: I'm stating my opinion more logically than these jerks by quoting what FIBS says, and you don't like it because it happens to be true, Patti.
don shouts: All sorts of racists and fascists are not allowed to login here!
donzaemon shouts: yeah , don is better gagged , but he uses whatever he can to get to keep things going , and going ....... and going ....
janitorb shouts: oh the humanity!!
janitorb shouts: how much can one man take?????
Patti shouts: No, don, I don't like it because you happen to do it incessantly, and in an obnoxious and disruptive manner. You've been told for years not to do it.
Mort shouts: who is don talking to?
don shouts: Change that or ban me again, Patti, or get reasonable, or shut up.
You shout: oh, the humidity
rollingfool shouts: don, ruled by logic, continues to miss his own biggest faults
Patti shouts: As you wish
donzaemon shouts: it's not about seeing faults for him , it's about keeping the ball rolling and making sure someone is arguing with him
sale shouts: don sounds very reasonable to me... maybe I missed something...
donzaemon shouts: he'll do that at any cost
don shouts: I'm sorry Patti, but as long as "All sorts of racists and fascists are not allowed to login here!" is part of FIBS I will object to those, when I care to, who use terms debasing people based on their race, sex, and/or habits
janitorb shouts: its just not fittin fer decent folk
don shouts: I've avoided one specific user at your request, Patti.
You shout: where are all those decent folk when we need them ?
donzaemon shouts: he always tries to sound reasonable , nobody would keep going with him if he didn't claim ignorance and try to grasp some moral highground
don shouts: probably the worst.
WildThing shouts: well you are probably within your rights to an everyone pretty much shouts what they want, but why keep harassing patti about it, she has already told you to leave her alone about it
rollingfool shouts: moral high ground? you mean pompous holier than thou rhetoric?
donzaemon shouts: he has mastered the techniques of 'appearance' and creating a skew between that appearance and the presentation underneath to only a few who he chooses
don shouts: And tonight, NIHo specifically named me, Patti, so go figure.
rollingfool shouts: lack of humor, humility, or insight
rollingfool shouts: don has put his foot in it tonight
donzaemon shouts: but the patterns get old after a while
Patti shouts: You really don't understand it, do you don?
rollingfool shouts: congrats don, and dump on patti while you are at it
janitorb shouts: no dump on me first
don shouts: Apparantly not, Patti. It seems anyone can be a racist, anyone can flame me, but I'm not allowed to object to racists.
Patti shouts: Yep, don, you've lost that right.
donzaemon shouts: it SHOULD be simple Gordon , that's the whole idea , he finds these areas to work
FrankZoid shouts: looks to me like don can't help himself, he just can't stop. But he must enjoy this, is that your point donz?
Patti shouts: It doesn't say "are not allowed to log in, and don gets to hound them when they do."
don shouts: No, I haven't lost that right, Patti. You can take it away, making FIBS a better place for racists and you, but I still have it, whether I login here or not.
donzaemon shouts: pretty much
donzaemon shouts: it's clearly intentional , because it has gone on for 12 years or more
sale shouts: Patti:)))))))))))))))))))))))))000 Patti shouts: It doesn't say "are not allowed to log in, and don gets to hound them when they do."
sale shouts: nice one...
janitorb shouts: don, i missed you when patti last banned you
FrankZoid shouts: wow, you others folks are patient people ;-)
donzaemon shouts: just look him up in google if you have doubts , the exact same sh** happening 12 years ago ..... it just never ends
don shouts: I feel sorry for you Patti, that you can't enforce the anti-racist rules on FIBS so you take the easy payth of getting rid of those who object.
rollingfool shouts: lol
rollingfool shouts: gordon, you perceptive fellow
donzaemon shouts: lol , don gets kicked , he'll come right back claiming he logged off himself
Patti shouts: But he won't be able to shout.
donzaemon shouts: that would be a very good thing
Denise shouts: But if don can't shout, what will entertain the troops?
sale shouts: Why Patti? It is so interesting... let don talk... he is not rude etc...
Mort shouts: l'm keeping him on gag just in case
donzaemon shouts: and he takes it easy on you compared to some ..
Patti shouts: sale, because he's already been told (many years ago) that he's not allowed to do that. He actually got a six-month ban for it once.
It's best summed up by: Patti shouts: You really don't understand it, do you don?
I don't. Patti thinks I'm policing behavior on FIBS, but a cop needs some power of enforcement which I lack. What I do is express my opinion of what, to me, is sick behavior. I don't do this every time I see it, and I've been ignoring NIHo lately (due to a Patti-fiat) though he still gets in the occasional flame.
What you can see here is, there wasn't much of a problem until Patti started shouting. There was no private communication. I think those who insist on using racist terms are encouraged by Patti's seeming defense in shouts.
Ah well, the great FIBS experiment goes on, with selected censorship by Patti!
As for inim's general comments on this thread, LOL, has anyone ever tried to STOP a conversation with inim?
--
don
Quote from: don on July 01, 2008, 04:39:00 PM
cassandra shouts: frank, stick around long enough, youll find that don will argue with a tree stump, and accuse the stump of flaming him
Please note that there is an editorial error for search/replace in Don's post. He got the logs from cassandra, who got them from me, who got them from NIHolympic who did the original cut/paste from JavaFibs shout window.
Thus: "You" was erraneously replaced with "cassandra", but "You" in the original logs is "NIHolympic". So all quotes attributed to cassandra (who wasn't logged in at that time) must be attributed to NIHolympic instead.
Thanks inim. My bad. Just hit a global search and replace with the wrong parameters by accident.
--
don
Well, you all know I was initially a clear fan of a kina 'FIBS Police'. But now I see Patti's approach simply the best and most efficient way of managing the FIBS. Everybody having every problem with everybody else, simply gag him. Yes, this is FIBS, take it or leave it. We don't need a language police.
Those who don't know the past are damned to repeat it ...
http://groups.google.com/group/rec.games.backgammon/search?group=rec.games.backgammon&q=banned+don+fibs (http://groups.google.com/group/rec.games.backgammon/search?group=rec.games.backgammon&q=banned+don+fibs)
I think the issue is simple. Remove the "All sorts of racists and fascists are not allowed to login here!" message and replace it with "All sorts of racists and fascists - we provide a room where you can shout it out to your heart's content". That or keep the hypocritical make-FIBS-look-bad-to-anyone-with-any-decency notice in place. The first option is better because then at least don will be unable to complain that :thumbdown: racists and fascists are making a mockery out of FIBS, :thumbdown: as they did yesterday and today and will do again tomorrow and the next day.
@Patti: Is there any reason why that message can't be zapped?
Quote from: inim on July 01, 2008, 12:54:18 PM
...
For myself, I am on his "to stalk" list for only a few month now and already puke...
LOL, that's inim to the core. He pulls a page from other abusers' books by accusing me of practicing inim-ical behavior.
Quote from: inim on July 01, 2008, 03:52:19 PM
...He agreed to give it a rest, but relapsed into old behaviour he solemnly swore to control to undo his first ban. He literally is on probation and violated the terms of that probation.
Consider that as an intended punishment for Don because he broke his promise to control his behaviour, and even worse to do that using especially the administrator as a target.
I sure would like to see this solemn vow, and I bet inim would too! No matter, inim waves his hands and it must be so.
Quote from: inim on July 01, 2008, 09:07:59 PM
Those who don't know the past are damned to repeat it ...
http://groups.google.com/group/rec.games.backgammon/search?group=rec.games.backgammon&q=banned+don+fibs (http://groups.google.com/group/rec.games.backgammon/search?group=rec.games.backgammon&q=banned+don+fibs)
This's just inim at his "
best", citing a general Google search result as typical inim-uendo. Care to bother to debate on specific issues? Nah, not inim.
Now if you want to see inim and others going on ("and don and don..") the following is from Saturday, a week and a half
after my last shout on FIBS. This is not the only example, just one morning's harvest of flames. I suspect Webby's editor will expurgate some of the words, and I wouldn't recommend checking zyxtcba's fantasy .jpg!
Quote
...
Anthony_J shouts: i have fibs and im still a proud serial killer....just this morning i stabbed a box of corn flakes to death...
nicky shouts: kombawa Donz
...
donzaemon shouts: fibs keeps them off the streets lol , that's what I always thought about don , he gets his strange urges out here , I always wondered how many kids around his area it saved
donzaemon shouts: they may be in danger now
...
Anthony_J shouts: you're right donz....give done back his shouts...before he kills 100 people...
...
zyxtcba shouts: http://www.moid.org/ed/oopsie.jpg
Anthony_J shouts: #### me...
zyxtcba shouts: ew
...
donzaemon shouts: zyx , you know who needs to see that ? Joe Tamargo
papillon shouts: no, i just came to play one game
Anthony_J shouts: lol donz
Anthony_J shouts: sicko
Anthony_J shouts: lmao
zyxtcba shouts: ya - that's his speed
Anthony_J shouts: oh no...
zyxtcba shouts: can we photo shop out a leg?
Anthony_J shouts: leave old folks out of this...they dont deserve it...
...
zyxtcba shouts: there IS a picture of a guy giving a hanlen to a black chick in there somewhere
Anthony_J shouts: and ?
...
Anthony_J shouts: did you blow a load over that one zyx ?
...
donzaemon shouts: don will look at it then come up with a rant 2 hours later , good thing it'll all be blocked , he'll probably do it anyway just to hear himself
vegasvic shouts: zyx , patti told me we have to stop picking on don :)
Anthony_J shouts: oh ####...dont mention its name donz !!! you might summon it
WildThing shouts: is he off gag?
Anthony_J shouts: like bealzebub
Anthony_J shouts: no
vegasvic shouts: that he is only 50% of the problem , i said maybe he is 99.99%
WildThing shouts: ;;-((
Anthony_J shouts: he is 100000000% of the problem...
...
zyxtcba shouts: I am using the dictionary term "hanlen" in a specific manner to add meaning to my sentence.
...
donzaemon shouts: vic , that's just because he's incessantly whining to Patti about it , just ask her to supply the logs , 'cause he's probably making up a bunch of sh**
...
zyxtcba shouts: just like I might say I will "don" my coat.
Anthony_J shouts: \is
WildThing shouts: you are all guilty
Anthony_J shouts: bs
Anthony_J shouts: its getting chilly here....im might don my trenchcoat too...
papillon shouts: why don't you all just not say anything to him, then you won't have a problem
donzaemon shouts: you know how he just makes sh** up , he's probably making up good sh** for her
Anthony_J shouts: mmmmm.....comfy
papillon shouts: he's not even here and you can't shut up about him
papillon shouts: he's the problem?
donzaemon shouts: yup
zyxtcba shouts: yup
WildThing shouts: no
Anthony_J shouts: maybe if he didnt sprout sh** there wouldnt be a problem ??
zyxtcba shouts: yup
Joe_Tamargo shouts: Hi papillon.
...
Anthony_J shouts: ffs....he has been doing this for how long ?
papillon shouts: and you're still all filling shouts with him
Anthony_J shouts: yet some of the "newer" people defend this idiot ??
WildThing shouts: joe tmeowwwrrrgooo;;-))
Anthony_J shouts: are you kldding ??
papillon shouts: hi Joe :)
Anthony_J shouts: tlk about gullible...
papillon shouts: how are you?
WildThing shouts: like i keep saying i treat people the way they treat me
donzaemon shouts: anyone who hasn't experienced it doesn't have any idea how twisted and sick it is , but he incessantly ####s with you daily for years , give us a few weeks to wind down and he'll go into insignicance where he belongs
...
Anthony_J shouts: exactly donz....we've both experienced it...
...
papillon shouts: why don't you just ignore him then?
zyxtcba shouts: http://www.moid.org/ed/oopsie.jpg ... did someone suggest joe should see that pic?
Anthony_J shouts: i tried hard to stick up for him once, after he helped me out a lil...then he sh** in my face...
Anthony_J shouts: so...
inim shouts: and it went on an don an don an don ...
Anthony_J shouts: ####im
Anthony_J shouts: speaking of america bashers...
donzaemon shouts: I used to stick up for him , before he began targetting me
Anthony_J shouts: hows things old man ? good too see you btw :)
donzaemon shouts: it's really hard to see how ####ed up he is , if he hasn't done it to you
Anthony_J shouts: yes it is
Anthony_J shouts: too many people in here have a "soft" view of him...
inim shouts: then i saw his face, now i'm a believer ...
Anthony_J shouts: taken in by his bpd...
Anthony_J shouts: share the drugs, inim :)
papillon shouts: bpd?
Anthony_J shouts: work it out...not hard :)
WildThing shouts: bi polar disorder?
Anthony_J shouts: close...
...
donzaemon shouts: naturally , they can't see the underlying bullshit , when he just makes up lies about something you say daily then takes the obviously correct point like he's arguing with you etc, just to bait you into the argument etc. it's easy to ignore for a few months , but it goes on and on and on ....
inim shouts: i reall donno, bashing goes on even when "he" is logged in
Anthony_J shouts: you took almost a para to say that,donz....but you
nailed it 100% easily....good job :)
WildThing shouts: i dunno i still think don and donzz are the same person
inim shouts: is that really such a hot topic?
Anthony_J shouts: bullshit inim
papillon shouts: no way, manx
RickrInSF shouts: lol WT
Anthony_J shouts: um...they're not...try a trace...sheesh...
Anthony_J shouts: geezus
RickrInSF shouts: problem is that they don't know it, (alter egos)
WildThing shouts: nah, just fun to see the responses
WildThing shouts: but i am not hte only one who says it
donzaemon shouts: some people do think that , but usually it's because their IQ can't get past the first 3 letters
Anthony_J shouts: yeah it is....i might try that trick myself...
inim shouts: saiswhut?
Anthony_J shouts: exactly donz...
WildThing shouts: You shout: i dunno i still think don and donzz are the same person
donzaemon shouts: some people do think that , but usually it's because their IQ can't get past the first 3 letters
Anthony_J shouts: next...
zyxtcba shouts: WildThing shouts: You shout: i dunno i still think don and donzz are the same person donzaemon shouts: some people do think that , but usually it's because their IQ can't get past the first 3 letters
inim shouts: na, donz is easily recognized by the "Z" at the end of his nick :)
Anthony_J shouts: anyone have anything original ??
WildThing shouts: actually inim it's an n at the end
donzaemon shouts: give him a week or two and even the people who are channeling him here will get tired of it , then he'll just disappear , poof , and it'll be a very nice place again
Anthony_J shouts: trace the ip's...and tell me don hanlen is smart enough to spoof same ?
Anthony_J shouts: get real...
vegasvic shouts: wild ? what redeaming value do you think don brings to the table ?
zyxtcba shouts: do not be badmouthing the letter z ...
Anthony_J shouts: lmfao
WildThing shouts: by that time he will be back
vegasvic shouts: name me one
donzaemon shouts: hopefully he won't come back
Anthony_J shouts: don couldn't spoof in his pants without a lot of time or help...
Anthony_J shouts: sheesh...
WildThing shouts: he makes me laugh
inim shouts: he is right here logged in as we speak, *z
WildThing shouts: he sings me songs
Anthony_J shouts: some people need the G stamp on their foreheads...
inim shouts: WT, he does that to noobs
Anthony_J shouts: and the entry in the dictionary...
Joe_Tamargo shouts: Well, he provides a subject of conversation.
Anthony_J shouts: he does joe
donzaemon shouts: I hope Patti has enough balls to keep this permanent , it's so much better without is blathering
Anthony_J shouts: which is something, i spose..
WildThing shouts: it would be if you all would shut up about it
inim shouts: patti? balls?
Joe_Tamargo shouts: What happened? Did Patti bar him?
Anthony_J shouts: it is donz...i doubt it tho...he will bleat and bleat and bleat...
vegasvic shouts: miss_treat is the one with the balls donz
WildThing shouts: but you all go on even more when he is not here
inim shouts: GenderException :)
vegasvic shouts: not patti
donzaemon shouts: he's not banned Joe , he's STUF'd
Anthony_J shouts: go on inim....say what you mean...dont be a pussy....spell it out...
...
donzaemon shouts: STFU'd
Joe_Tamargo shouts: That's cryptic.
Anthony_J shouts: it is
vegasvic shouts: i would never trust my balls to a butch
donzaemon shouts: it means he can't shout
papillon shouts: so much better without HIS blathering? but you all won't shut up about him yourselves
papillon shouts: don't you see how ridiculous that is
Anthony_J shouts: nope...
...
papillon shouts: so he's not here, but now we all have to listen to you all go on and on about him forever?
inim shouts: WT the point is that there wil always be noobs defending D, such as yourself
Anthony_J shouts: he had a part in ####ing this place up....hence he should be derrided for all times...
inim shouts: that's why it goes on and on and on
inim shouts: victimization as a way to immortality
...
donzaemon shouts: there will still be fighting and bickering papillon , but it won't be absolutely pathological and methodical
Interestingly, only a few days previous, inim admitted he was wrong to discuss me and the shout ban. Hey, what do you expect from inim (or these other bozos)? The question is, who's stalking and harassing whom? The shouts speak for themselves.
According to Patti, if I complain about this kind of one-sided harassment using email,
Quote
On Sun, 29 Jun 2008, Patti Beadles wrote:
Repeat after me: "I am not the FIBS police officer."
-Patti
...though I don't know how bringing something up to the one and only FIBS cop in email constitutes being a cop myself. It is exactly this double standard of Patti's that is the reason why I debate her policies when she makes a hypocritical issues and threats of them.
The paraphrase of Lord Acton by inim was damned appropriate! So far we've seen inim's version of recent history (untrue) and his reference to long term history (meaningless). Here's some real history that is a bit more pertinent. For these original text (with headers) messages, you can view the thread by clicking the discussion name at the top.
Some guy from Jacksonville impersonates me. (http://groups.google.com/group/rec.games.backgammon/msg/08ed08612dfc657a?hl=en&dmode=source)
The guy from Jacksonville gets creatively sick. (http://groups.google.com/group/rec.games.backgammon/msg/bf2fdabf75718879?hl=en&dmode=source)
NIHILIST (from Jacksonville! duh!) chimes in. (http://groups.google.com/group/rec.games.backgammon/msg/2880cee270ac3d21?hl=en&dmode=source)
And more from NIHo, gee, from Jacksonville! (http://groups.google.com/group/rec.games.backgammon/msg/cd542edba76a2eec?hl=en%E0%AD%80cee270ac3d21&dmode=source)
The dog pack impersonates another FIBSter, this one from UK. (http://groups.google.com/group/rec.games.backgammon/msg/8c82a6031bcd815e?hl=en&dmode=source)
And here's that fellow from Jacksonville feeding the flames! (http://groups.google.com/group/rec.games.backgammon/msg/d2ddca5ca758e50a?hl=en&dmode=source)
Here, NIHo starts an argument faking my ID.... (http://groups.google.com/group/rec.games.backgammon/msg/60227fd03aaefc4d?hl=en&dmode=source)
...and ends it as himself! (http://groups.google.com/group/rec.games.backgammon/msg/1cd10fbc0e1cd3b1?hl=en&dmode=source)
...there's lot's more!
I hope you're paying attention to the headers, particularly the trace and source elements. (BTW, the real miss_nurse, no longer on FIBS, had nothing to do with these bogus rips of her ID.)
These are important because they start the serious harassment of me by NIHo and his dog pack. He involved Honeygirl in his rips of my ID and, when I responded to Honeygirl's harassment of me, she complained to Patti, who eventually banned me from FIBS because I refused to (completely) ignore HG's harassment unless Patti would require HG to STOP same. The situation today is, I am not allowed to respond when HG or NIHo flame me.
The situation today is that NIHo, donzaemon, Biggles, zyxtcba and others still quote these (and other) bogus posts in FIBS shouts. A bit more interesting than the results of a Google search in an inim-gnorant version of history, IMO.
Enough for now.
--
don
...........
It seems I may have not made clear that NONE OF THE LINKS I LISTED ON MY LAST POST TO rec.games.backgammon ARE FROM ME! Some are proven NIHILogisms, others from members of his dog-pack. If you click on the link: 'Message from discussion xxxxxx' you will occasionally see responses from me listed. Here's a real post from me (http://groups.google.com/group/rec.games.backgammon/msg/6509e703c9cde3c0?hl=en%08ed08612dfc657a&dmode=source). Note the header info about sources and traces.
--
don
german translation will follow...
hello @ll!
i read this stuff here and all the tells** i got since i posted my question. i included all information into my consideration.
my conclusion is:
patti is the owner of the server and root. she can do everything she likes without asking anybody (yy ;)
and i accept this
but people get second chances i see ...
how many influence at pattis decisions the fibsters have, one only can suppose ...
so i understand her now: she only wants to do her work without beeing bothered with kindergarten-stuff which is not only don but also some other fibsters.
its easier to gag one then a couple of ...
and it seemes not to be possible to educate the normal fibs user in the *gag and blind*-feature - which would be the best way to clear up this situation imho.
greetings cassandra
.o*°*o.o*°*o.o*°*o.o*°*o.o*°*o.o*°*o.o*°*o.o*°*o.
explenations
============
why did i do this post?
------------------------
1. i wanted to know what don did wrong ... to do not the same mistakes
2. i am german and if you take a look on my avatar you maybe understand my persistent fight against discrimination, racism, fashism
** the tells i got
------------------
spread over *if you speak for don you can not be longer my friend* to *wtg cass!* including examples about dons botherings or so called stalking manners...
accusation: stalking
---------------------
as i see, some fibsters are really bothered of don (at least one is bothered of me ... btw). i am no judge, but imo it sounds more like bothering then stalking. theres a difference you should know.
it is possible to prevent unsolicited tells/messages/shouts on fibs by simply *gag and blind*-command. isn't it?
if i am wrong, i would suggest to add this features.
other unsolicited things like emails, telefoncalls etc. one may provide in hiding her/his emailaddress or telefonnumber.
if a accused stalker got the dates from this person herself, the chances to bring the accused stalker to a court are very small - so it is in germany as i know from personal experience in dayly life...
nowadays there are good spam-filters and telefon-switches available which help ignoring stalking attacs.
more about this theme you may read in following sites - so i hope with the same information i have you can come to the similar conclusion...
stalking:
http://www.sociosite.org/cyberstalking_en.php
cyberstalking:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stalking#cite_note-menace-1
faking emailheaders
--------------------
this is a serious attacc but not a fibs-problem. unfortunately ...
friend of enemy is enemy
-------------------------
i am a little disappointed that i had to read such nonsense. please read my 1st post and meditate about ... ty
repbot-function complain
-------------------------
this would be like what we see here.
some are discussing, the others are quiet - wise or not interested?
can be compared with elections/polls - some like them, some don't like them.
there are good reasons not to like them.
username hitler
----------------
if it is allowed it is infamous at least...
fibs welcome-message
---------------------
this message i like.
since we fibsters are not the police we can not to anything against trespasses.
makes me sad.
but this is live...
Quote from: cassandra on July 03, 2008, 12:25:39 PM
it is possible to prevent unsolicited tells/messages/shouts on fibs by simply *gag and blind*-command. isn't it?
[...]
other unsolicited things like emails, telefoncalls etc. one may provide in hiding her/his emailaddress or telefonnumber.
Patti is the site admin, how can she hide anything? Her full address, phone, email, and of course her main fibs nick are completely public. To a lesser extend this holds for anybody doing some exposed service on fibs, e.g. running a bot, or maintaining software or services. Your trick assumes you are Joe User and can remain in splendid anonymity, which many here either can not do or do not want to do. And if anybody here is forced to hide his identity because of stalkers, I think there is something rotten in FIBSmark.
As for emails, if you wade through the old r.g.b. archives you will find that Patti at one point simply banned Don's domain and his email sender address on the low level (this was long before email clients had filters). All this is WORK. Why exactly should she accept that one single person who thinks he is on some kind of weird crusade has the right to create arbitrary large amounts of work for her? Patti banned him from shout because she can not hide, that's the whole point. But she can punish, and she did.
As for what is allowed to say in FIBS shout, another old r.g.b. posting gives this definition: anything which is not illegal or bothers Patti. Guess that's the summary. Self proclaimed fibs police officers such as Don don't accept this, which causes a lot of trouble for the admin who tries to enforce THIS policy, as contrasted to the policy the self proclaimed fibs cops suggest (of course without any hint or clue how it could be implemented). Don's application as a cop was refused years ago, but he doesn't shut up about it. So, if he can't follow the ESTABLISHED rules, and he does it in a most annoying way to the admin, he is lucky to be only gagged in shout and not completely banned. It's that simple.
My suggestions for Don are: Either he opens his own backgammon server, all the software needed for that is open source. He can implement any policy he wants there, but probably has to give up his day job to do so -- quality censorship takes a lot of time. Alternatively, if he can't stand FIBS shout so badly, why he logs in and doesn't toggle silent firsthand? The precision version of this is to gag all the people who bother him, which is what cassandra just suggested everybody else should do. But Don has the right to whine forever and simply refuse to do it himself? Nay, nay, nay.
But none of the above suggestions is of any interest to Don, because he is in it for the flaming part and to cause trouble. And this for a decade now. Patti is definitely blessed with the patience of an angel, isn't she?
Quote from: inim on July 03, 2008, 04:32:00 PM
But none of the above suggestions is of any interest to Don, because he is in it for the flaming part and to cause trouble. And this for a decade now. Patti is definitely blessed with the patience of an angel, isn't she?
Gee, as someone "in it for the flaming part" I hesitate to point out the 4 flames from inim on this thread before I responded to him (in part by quoting just one of his flames in shouts on FIBS after he admitted he was wrong in doing so).
--
don
I think that if we changed all shouts from English to German, we would eliminate lots of the flaming problems, and Cassandra could participate more fully, as well.
e.g.
donzaemon shouts: STFU
Joe_Tamargo shouts: Das ist kryptisch.
Anthony_J shouts: ja
vegasvic shouts: Ich würde niemals mein Vertrauen Bälle zu einem butch
donzaemon shouts: es bedeutet, er kann nicht schreien
papillon shouts: so viel besser ohne seine blathering? aber Sie werden nicht alle shut up über ihn selbst
papillon shouts: Sie nicht sehen, wie lächerlich das ist über ihn selbst
Anthony_J shouts: nein...
It wouldn't take long for us all to learn the language, (especially anthony_j, who is a man of few words, apparently) and we'd all be better off for it. vic's german spelling has got to be at least as good as his english is already.
Quote from: inim on July 03, 2008, 04:32:00 PM
Patti is definitely blessed with the patience of an angel, isn't she?
How do you know that angels have that much patience? Did you actually ever meet one?
> definition: anything which is not illegal or bothers Patti.
ok. i can live with this...
ty inim,
ty @ll
special thanks to lewscannon
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Volenti_non_fit_injuria
don and lambda_phage just got what they were asking for.
My most important rules of behaviour for any place in the world.
Do not ask for something you do not want.
Do not ask for trouble if you do not really want it.
Do not go to a chinese restaurant if you do not like chinese food.
Do not play a gBOT if you do not like them. They can happily live without you.
don and lambda_phage are not in prison, they are free to go to any IRC-server and create a #FIBSrants channel there.
don and lambda_phage are also free to build their own backgammon-server and abuse it as a whine-server.
Quote from: lewscannon on July 03, 2008, 06:37:01 PM
I think that if we changed all shouts from English to German, we would eliminate lots of the flaming problems, and Cassandra could participate more fully, as well.
e.g.
donzaemon shouts: STFU
Joe_Tamargo shouts: Das ist kryptisch.
Anthony_J shouts: ja
vegasvic shouts: Ich würde niemals mein Vertrauen Bälle zu einem butch
donzaemon shouts: es bedeutet, er kann nicht schreien
papillon shouts: so viel besser ohne seine blathering? aber Sie werden nicht alle shut up über ihn selbst
papillon shouts: Sie nicht sehen, wie lächerlich das ist über ihn selbst
Anthony_J shouts: nein...
It wouldn't take long for us all to learn the language, (especially anthony_j, who is a man of few words, apparently) and we'd all be better off for it. vic's german spelling has got to be at least as good as his english is already.
LOL...u crack me up, lews :lol:
lews ist definitiv der wahre Vater von FIBS Philosophie und der gesunde Menschenverstand!
--
Herr don
Honestly, I'm bored with this thread.
Can we talk about me?
Mookie, for whom you may vouch AFTER playing.
WITHOUT ANY COMMENT
Patti: Stop it please.
You: stop what?!
Patti: "free don".
You: FREE DON!
Patti: The reason don's not allowed to shout is so the controversy dies
down. Please stop
feeding it.
You: i dont feed anything.
Patti: You are
You: no i dont. only in your imagination.
You: do what ever you think you have to do.
You: its my protest.
Patti: And I'mt elling you clearly to stop.
You: free talking for free people on a free server.
Patti: It's a benevolent dictatorship.
Patti: There. Problem solved.
You: pardon? what do you mean?
You: problem solved?
Patti: I mean that if you won't do what I ask you, I'll help you out.
You: is this a ban?
Patti: You're not banned from FIBS.
You: but from shouts?
Patti: So long as you want to continue feeding the don controversy, yes.
You: lets try to shout....
You: ok i see...
You: ** Patti is waiting for you to log in.
Patti: I asked nicely first.
You: ** shouting has been disabled for you by the sysop.
You: its ok. you dont have to explain any more. i said it before. do what
ever you think you
have to do.
You: i am very sad now.
Patti: Please consider that you had complete control over the situation.
You: no thats not true. YOU HAVE COMPLETE CONTROL!
You: like big brother......
You: THATS REAL CENSORSHIP
Patti: I asked you nicely not to keep shouting what you were shouting. You
could have
chosen to do so.
Patti: Nope, not censorship. Free speech does not require me to allow you to
stand in my
living room doing it.
You: IF I ASK YOU NICELY TO ENABLE SHOUT YOU WONT DO THAT. so what kind
of argument is that?
You: your living room.
Patti: As we speak, you are using a server that is IN MY HOME.
You: a i see. your live is fibs and fibs is your live.
Patti: Nope, not hardly. However, I do what I feel that I need to do in
order to maintain FIBS.
You were a disruptive influence. I asked you to stop, and you failed to do
so.
You: and THIS host is in MY home. so what?
Patti: I'm not using your computer. However, you're using mine.
You: disruptive influence. hmmmm.....
You: YOU ARE USING MY COMPUTER!
You: otherwise we couldnt communicate.
Patti: No, you are using your computer to talk to my computer. I am using
another of my
computers to talk to my computer.
Patti: I am not logged into your computer. However, you *are* logged into
mine. You are
a guest at FIBS.
You: :-) thats technical NOT correct.
Patti: How so?
You: just think over.
You: its like a phonecall isnt it?
Patti: Perhaps. However, in this case FIBS is the phone company and you are
a customer
of the phone company.
You: but dream your dream. good luck for it.
You: you dont want to understand it.
You: maybe you should better ban me COMPLETE from here?!
Patti: We both conenct to the phone company and the phone company makes
internal
connections so that we can talk.
Patti: I have no desire to do that.
You: Thank you for talking to me.
Patti: You are, however, free to choose not to log in shoudl you desire to
do so.
Patti: Look, I'm sorry if you don't like my ruling, but I asked you nicely to stop shouting about
don.
You: you dont have to explain yourself.
You: lets see what will happen next.
Patti: What will happen next is easy: your shouts will stay blocked until you convince me
that you're not going to continue being disruptive.
Patti: It had nothing to do with your agreeing or disagreeing with me, but rather that your
persistent and frequent shouts about a topic I'd rather see die down were disruptive.
You: why are you still talking to me? in your eyes i am a dumb person who cannot understand
what it is all about.
Patti: The whole reason don's shouts are blocked is that I'm trying to keep *him* from feeding
the fire. Your doing it was only making matters worse.
Patti: Interesting bit of projection there. I wouldn't have said that.
You: you wouldnt say but think it.
Patti: Not at all.
You: Good night. My bed is waiting. My best ideas were born in my dreams.
Sigh. I'm on vacation this weekend, but since I just got nagged about this I'll make a statement.
The Don situation has been a persistent disruption on FIBS for many years. There are two sides to the battle, and both sides are clearly in the wrong-- they nag, harass, abuse, and do all sorts of unpleasant things to each other.
I have clearly explained to Don in the past that it is not his duty to police behavior on FIBS, and that he should ignore any speech that he doesn't like. He seems unable to understand this, and insists on harassing people both publicly and privately. He then insists that he's the innocent victim.
On the other side we have some equally obnoxious assholes who harass Don in a variety of ways, both publicly and privately. So after I repeatedly told Don to stop poking the bears, I took action and disabled his shouts. This shall remain in effect until he understands what I'm asking him not to do.
My sincere hope is that I can make both sides back off, since I'm really bloody tired of dealing with this over and over and over. To this end, I really want people to stop feeding the fire by shouting about it. lambda_phage was shouting abut it repeatedly. I asked her (?) nicely to stop. When that didn't work, I asked more strongly. When *that* didn't work, I disabled shouts. All it would take to get them back is, "OK, I understand how I was causing problems and I won't do it again."
Honestly, you have no idea how many hours of my life I have spent on this particular mess, but it is far more than it deserves. At this point I am not inclined to look favorably on anyone who contributes to it in any way, and I may well be quick on the trigger when it happens. Frankly, I'm not going to apologize for that. The whole thing is childish and annoying, and makes my life far less pleasant. I no longer have patience for anyone who continues to contribute to it after I ask them to stop.
I fully agree with you Patti, whenever is this going to end?
There is one question i would like to ask you though: the Kindergarden gang as i have called them over the years (http://www.fibsboard.com/general-chit-chat/community-or-snakepit-t209.0.html) always seems to be involved in this particular incidents with Don (or almost any other incident/post about rudeness). When are you taking a stand against them? It seems to me that (as you stated yourself) where two parties are fighting, two are to blame. Yet your actions seem aonly aim at Don. To be honest: i was bothered by other players ten times more then i ever was bothered by Don. Although Don can be a pain in the neck, i think he also adds a lot of extra and even positive stuff to the community which i can't say for some other members.
Another question that has been asked but never answered: Why in gods name is that message about racists and facsist up there in the first place if it isn't going to be enforced? This doesn't endorse you as an sysop/admin since it implicated that rules are not to be followed on FIBS, so why should any sysop directions should be followed?
In my opinion: if you are going to hyave this rule up there: enforce it, or get rid of it.
Quote from: webrunner on July 05, 2008, 07:45:04 AM
Another question that has been asked but never answered: Why in gods name is that message about racists and facsist up there in the first place if it isn't going to be enforced?
Give a working definition of "racist", fascist" and "rude", please. If all fibsters would give their list of the top 10 offenders, not 2 lists would be identical. So
what exactly you want to see enforced, a FIBS ostracism? How would that work?
We got a fracking unbiased and liberal admin, and should praise the internet gods for that in the age of censorship. As Rosa Luxemburg put it, "freedom always means the freedom of those with an opinion opposing your own.".
Quote from: webrunner on July 05, 2008, 07:45:04 AM
This doesn't endorse you as an sysop/admin since it implicated that rules are not to be followed on FIBS, so why should any sysop directions should be followed?
In my opinion: if you are going to hyave this rule up there: enforce it, or get rid of it.
I don't care whether the message remains, or goes away. Nevertheless, it encourages people to cite it, while susbtituting "racist", "fascist" and "rude" with their private definition. So removing it would be pragmatic, but surely a loss. As per my private definition, we got a few people with racist and fascist ideas on FIBS, and surely some more with poor taste. But none of them to a degree that required action. Thus IMO, the message
IS sufficiently well enforced.
Andreas put that message in there many years ago. I don't feel that I have the right to remove it.
At a practical level, policing language on FIBS just isn't going to happen-- it would require far more work than I am willing to put into it. That's independent of whether I think it's a good idea to do so, a question I don't feel like addressing right now. Posting a "you're not welcome" sign at logon at least establishes what code of behavior is expected, even if there is no effective way to police it.
I am, however, willing to take action in cases of egregious harassment and personal abuse. Both sides in this particular battle have crossed the line in myriad ways, and both sides are going to stop. Much of what I do happens behind the scenes, away from public view. I'm sick of it, though, and I'm willing to take drastic action to get it to stop. The perpetrators can chill, or they can find themselves locked out of FIBS.
Quote from: inim on July 05, 2008, 08:56:57 AM
Give a working definition of "racist", fascist"
FASHISM IS NOT AN OPINION - ITS A CRIME!
offtopic???
ok i opened another thread
http://www.fibsboard.com/general-chit-chat/fashism-no-opinion-but-a-crime-t1981.0.html;msg15122
Quote from: Patti on July 04, 2008, 11:48:05 PM
Sigh. I'm on vacation this weekend, but since I just got nagged about this I'll make a statement.
The Don situation has been a persistent disruption on FIBS for many years. There are two sides to the battle, and both sides are clearly in the wrong-- they nag, harass, abuse, and do all sorts of unpleasant things to each other.
I have clearly explained to Don in the past that it is not his duty to police behavior on FIBS, and that he should ignore any speech that he doesn't like. He seems unable to understand this, and insists on harassing people both publicly and privately. He then insists that he's the innocent victim.
On the other side we have some equally obnoxious #######s who harass Don in a variety of ways, both publicly and privately. So after I repeatedly told Don to stop poking the bears, I took action and disabled his shouts. This shall remain in effect until he understands what I'm asking him not to do.
My sincere hope is that I can make both sides back off, since I'm really bloody tired of dealing with this over and over and over. To this end, I really want people to stop feeding the fire by shouting about it. lambda_phage was shouting abut it repeatedly. I asked her (?) nicely to stop. When that didn't work, I asked more strongly. When *that* didn't work, I disabled shouts. All it would take to get them back is, "OK, I understand how I was causing problems and I won't do it again."
Honestly, you have no idea how many hours of my life I have spent on this particular mess, but it is far more than it deserves. At this point I am not inclined to look favorably on anyone who contributes to it in any way, and I may well be quick on the trigger when it happens. Frankly, I'm not going to apologize for that. The whole thing is childish and annoying, and makes my life far less pleasant. I no longer have patience for anyone who continues to contribute to it after I ask them to stop.
Frankly speaking, I think few people would devote so much of their valuable time and energy for a free, non-paid server like what have been you doing for years now, Patti. Thus, I think nobody can object your authentic authority on the way you handle the issues. That's for granted.
Secondly, as you definitly know, I was initially in favor of enforcing the FIBS behavioural codes, implied in the FIBS header, but now, I think that enforcing such an idea would have much more downsides and it's much better to have a totally free-speech community. Yes, this is FIBS, take it or leave it.
But, the problem with don's server-gagging is of another kind. That's the issue of impartiality. As far as I know, you've gagged don in hope of putting a permanent end to the ages-old don vs Nihi-zyx-vic-..... dogfight, right? And you've told don that his opponents would stop after a while. That's like I say rollingfool : 'Let me kill you so that donzaemon wouldn't kill you' ! In other words, you've done a worse thing to poor don that his life-long 'lovers', IMHO. Before being gagged, he at least could have responded to them, but now he even can't say hello to his friends.
My question is this: ' If you are really sick and tierd of this sh**, why are you prolonging it?' I really do think that gagging don has had a worse effect on this childish debate. Every morning, every evening and every night, people are talking about this damned, childish topic, and almost always ending in a heated exchange of swears, containing many of that 4-letter word. In other words, I mean if don is harassing and annoying others and wants to play the role of 'language cop' at FIBS, then, let him do that, who gives a sh**? You correctly don't give a sh** about the way people communicate and treat each other via tells, messages, kibitzes, whispers and even shouts, about being rude or fascist or racist, then what in god's name has forced you to care about don's shouts and/or his self-proclaimed 'language cop' role? No fibster gives a sh** about don vs X flame wars in shouts and nobody is asking you to take action on it. Let them swear at each other like what have they been doing from years ago. Why do you care about their shouts? And if you think, like inim, that don is harassing others via other than shout tools : tells, messages, e-mails, etc, then server-gagging him would NOT solve the problem and he can continue his abusive behaviour (if that's the case). And also, who cares about don's being a self-proclaimed language cop? Let him imagine he's the language cop, cuz as long as he lacks enforcing power, it will remain a dream job for him.
All in all, I think the best thing is ungagging don and letting him and his dissidents to engage in the flame wars as always, because otherwise you'd have a lot of annoying work to do. Just think of the signals your action would give to some people: That the sysop cares about their personal dogfights with their hated dissidents and that they can ask her to take action and this will lead you either to shutting the server down or to get a sevre cordial disfunctionality. Just ungag the don and save your valuable time and energy.
Regards
Quote from: inim on July 05, 2008, 08:56:57 AMI don't care whether the message remains, or goes away. Nevertheless, it encourages people to cite it, while susbtituting "racist", "fascist" and "rude" with their private definition. So removing it would be pragmatic, but surely a loss.
"
Pragmatic", certainly, but
"surely a loss"? That's just so wrong. The message make FIBS look foolish, feeble and whatever other words you care to throw at it. It's more than just a meaningless message, it's a message of impotence.
It's a lie. It's not just a lie but it's a
disappointing lie because it promises something that it can't deliver. And every time this topic comes up it's clearly stated that it's a promise that
won't be delivered.
Quote from: Patti on July 05, 2008, 09:45:26 AM
Andreas put that message in there many years ago. I don't feel that I have the right to remove it.
I hereby give you the right, on behalf of all people who over the years have been disappointed by, or even deplore or disdain, the falsity of that message.
QuoteAt a practical level, policing language on FIBS just isn't going to happen-- it would require far more work than I am willing to put into it.
That's fair enough. It's a pity that there's nobody else that you'd trust with the task and who'd be interested.
But if you can't honour Andreas' intent, you could surely avoid dishonouring him by displaying his message as a mockery of his wishes.
Quote from: playBunny on July 05, 2008, 04:55:08 PM
It's more than just a meaningless message, it's a message of impotence. It's a lie.
Same question as for webrunner, what particular definition of the three terms you have, and how you would enforce a policy? Give a concrete implementation including an assesment of person days per week needed.
And it's not a lie, it is a lie in
your opinion, not in e.g. mine. Please don't confuse facts and opinion here.
Quote from: playBunny on July 05, 2008, 04:55:08 PM
It's a pity that there's nobody else that you'd trust with the task and who'd be interested.
How would that help? As long as there is no workable algorithm, parallel CPUs won't be of any use ...
You made the point that "If all fibsters would give their list of the top 10 offenders, not 2 lists would be identical." but that's concentrating on the differences. There would be overlap in those lists, some people popularly recognised as offenders. As long as you have people who could make lists and as long as you have people who would top those lists with regularity you have listed people whose output defines the terms given. If you want accuracy then it's not up to one person to define. If you have a single person or a small team working on the moderation then it's up to them to define. Mine and webrunner's definitions are of no importance unless we are the enforcers.
Currently Patti is the enforcer just by being the admin who stands next to that notice every time somone logs in. Her effective working definition is that there an no words or phrases on the rude list, none on the racism list and none on the facism list. How can any definition possibly be worse than that?
The question is moot anyway. As long as there are any people who recognise some form of rudeness, racism or facism in the shouts then the message is being seen to be a mockery of Andreas wishes. And, clearly, there are people who see it that way.
Quote from: inim on July 05, 2008, 04:59:22 PM
And it's not a lie, it is a lie in your opinion, not in e.g. mine. Please don't confuse facts and opinion here.
It is a factual statement unless you are saying that there is no rude, racist or fascist language to be seen in shouts. If you use Patti's working set then you'd be correct but not if you use any realistic set. I wonder how
you define the terms such that you have not seen offensive people whooping it up in the shout room. Is your definition universal? Anybody who sees such behaviour and doesn't subsequently see those offenders not being allowed to login has been given a demonstration that Andreas' message is presented as a lie.
You need to prove that there are no such people in order to prove that the message is not a lie.
Quote from: Patti on July 04, 2008, 11:48:05 PM
I have clearly explained to Don in the past that it is not his duty to police behavior on FIBS, and that he should ignore any speech that he doesn't like. He seems unable to understand this, and insists on harassing people both publicly and privately. He then insists that he's the innocent victim.
On the other side we have some equally obnoxious #######s who harass Don in a variety of ways, both publicly and privately. So after I repeatedly told Don to stop poking the bears, I took action and disabled his shouts. This shall remain in effect until he understands what I'm asking him not to do.
My sincere hope is that I can make both sides back off, ...
I have always understood what Patti asks of me. I've never perceived her requiring the kind of behavior of others that she requires of me. It appears that is changing (whether my perception or actuality is moot). Therefore there will be no problem from my "side".
I may even vouch mookie!
--
don