First I will have to ask you all to bear with all my mistakes here and hope that you will get my point; Second I do not want to sound like Don and be ######ing about nothing, I find 2 game tourneys or 2 game matches as having no value but to inflate a 1 gamer, meaning its played as a one game for twice the rating points.
Many players on FIBS and other sites have used the 2 gamer to take advantage of weaker players to prey on them just to inflate their own rating points.Here I donââ,¬â,,¢t care if they do or if they donââ,¬â,,¢t I just didnââ,¬â,,¢t want to see people I considered friends using the same tool under the guise of Vic were teaching the newbies how to handle a 2 away game . Pleaseeeeeeeee save me from that one .
I made my displeasure known in shouts about 2 game tourneys, And i tried to make a point that is is not fair to weaker players to be put in this position when they will get there in many games they play as in a 5 gamer to 3-3, I said at least they have played some backgammon and are not playing a one game winner take all.
For all this I was accused by socksey as attacking her personally and it was far from it I was only talking about a tourney that was being played on FIBS, I had said nothing to socksey or gogogiz but I was called a not a nice person and to STFU gramps and to go take my meds. Well compared to some other stuff Iââ,¬â,,¢ve been called on FIBS this is nothing , but this one came from a person that I considered a friend.
.
What do I mean by this position, let me see if I can explain: if you are weaker player and know the strategy you should know against a stronger player you have to cube right away to bring the match to a 50-50, if you are a weaker player and do not know to cube the stronger player will sit on the dice and try for gammon or cube you when he has a little lead. All advantage is to the stronger player here, he doesnââ,¬â,,¢t really have to cube you and can go to 1-0 and still have a 40%to 20% win ration because of the weaker players errors, all this you can read on this archive http://www.bkgm.com/rgb/rgb.cgi?menu (http://www.bkgm.com/rgb/rgb.cgi?menu) you must scroll down to 2away games.
When you read some of the articles you will see how the cards are stacked against the weaker player in such games, I am not saying here that socksey has set this up to cheat anyone but for her to say to me itââ,¬â,,¢s a nice teaching tool for novice players to learn how to play is just off the mark ,then by all means set a tourney with rating points within 40 points of each other and invite novice players to watch and learn, and not learn by losing their points to stronger and more savvy players.
I would like to also ask here how many of you in fibs have been offered to play a 2 game match? in 70,000 I have been asked once and told the person to take a hike . I wonder if there is a reason that no one offers one ? could it be that it makes zero sense ? itââ,¬â,,¢s a 1 gamer but you lose twice the points , here I come to the idea itââ,¬â,,¢s a rating ploy , NIHL can let you all into how this is used to you advantage he is a pro .
..
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I have played this game since I was 7 years old and I love it dearly and seeing it abused and abused by a friend it hurts even more .
i am sure after this line i will get many responses sayign Vic playing this game since you were 7 years old you still have not learned a thing :) so save it i have heard it all.
Just to let XXXX or XXXXXXXX know that feed socksey about 2 gamers yes you can play 2 gamers in your league between evenly matched players for fun , this is a open system online and with a point rating system its a abuse of the system to play a 1 gamer at dbl the stakes. to me its the same as playing a 99 games in one game just less points involved ,
Its cheating the system simple as that , ask why no one invites you to a 2 game match and if they do ask your self do you take it if its against a stronger player ?
answer should be no , you will get your clock cleaned .
thanks
Vic.
I know you said you didnt want to hear this argument - but since I am speaking from personal experience - I am going to make it anyway.
The minimatches tournament started almost one year ago - in april - at that time I was not aware of the two away rule - nor did I know how to play it. The discussions around the tournament brought the strategy to my attention - and made my play stronger at any two away situation - I still make mistakes - but I do know what I am supposed to be doing :D
The second point is that if I am playing a stronger player - I have more chance in a 2 point match than in, say, an 11 point match - since the luck factors in much more!! So, I have won plenty of these two point matches against stronger players - and lost them to weaker players. Also bear in mind - the way the rating calculation works - if a 1400ish players gets the luck - and beats the 1750+ player - the 1400 player does very nicely out of it!! (BTW, that happened may times when I hosted it, and I am sure it will go on happening.)
Result - I see what you are saying in theory - but the reality just doesnt seem to pan out. I do not feel like I was taken advantage of - nor do I feel like I have taken advantage of anyone else. The list of winners for all the weeks this tournament has run is recorded here on fibsboard - have a scroll throught them - and see how many times lower rated, new or weaker players have won them. This tournament is a great opportunity for them to beat the 'big names' on fibs, and to win a tournament - and they seem to enjoy it.
The tournament is very popular - and I dont expect it will stop, now it has such a following - so if it bothers you this much, maybe it would be easier if you didnt log in around that time??
Answer the question Diane ?
how many 2 games were you offered in Fibs ?
like i said in my 70,000 games once why is that ?
Can you answer this ? i am sure now that you know how toplay 2away you are stronger
that is not the point here the point is people walk in not knowing and get taken
PS wrong you have more chances in a 11 gamer then a 2 gamer
he has a 40% 20% over you please go read . stronger player doesnt have to cube you,
the weaker player has to and play error free . the numbers dont lie.
You tell me its a tourney to teach players how to handle 2away games fine ill buy that
then there is no reason for anyone that knows this to enter such a tourney
its cheating simple as that
its a one gamer with dbl the stakes
There is no value but the value of reciving more points for a player to join this kind of tourney if you know the 2away stratagy
I am happy to make a discussion out of this - provided it doesnt get nasty - so if I am wrong - feel free to say so - but I will listen more readily if you can do it tactfully :D
Firstly - As I mentioned - I started playing in the tournament a year ago, I did not refer to my playing strength now - and I do think part of my improvement has been to grasp, at least on some level, the two away rule - even if I make stupid errors on it still (and kick meself!!). So - the tournament brought that to my attention - as a beginner. That was my point .
Players do not invite 2 often - of course - people dont think of it - 1, 3, 5, etc are the 'natural' matchlengths - so - I repeat - isnt this is a means of drawing attention to the situation?
I have more chance in an 11 point match?? I really dont understand that - if you can point me at a specific text - I will try to make sense of it. All my head says - is that I know I can beat any player in a one point (and therefore 2 pt) match - with nice dice - but I seriously doubt I could even beat you in an 11 point match!! So, how does the maths come out that I have a better chance against a stronger player over 11 points than over 1/2???? If that is what you meant?? :wacko:
Also - you didnt address the issue of the weaker player winning by just getting lucky - and getting a very nice return on a small investment!
Seems I am a bit late in posting this, so I hope Vic will forgive me for changing the title of the forum and that others will forgive me for repeating some of what Vic has said. Here's my post:
I am opening this forum thread in order to educate the players of the Mini-Matches Tournament played every Saturday at 1600/1620 on Fibs whose theme is 2-point matches. There is a webpage, provided by vegasvic, that I will point you to for more discussion and some opinions of a few higher rated and respected players in the larger backgammon community along with some other players who find the game interesting to play.
You will find this discussion by paging way down to the section titled, "Match Play at 2-away/2-away"; at: http://www.bkgm.com/rgb/rgb.cgi?memu (http://www.bkgm.com/rgb/rgb.cgi?memu)
Having said that, the reason for this education has been prompted by vegasvic who adamantly opposes the playing of 2-pointers in an open tournament atmosphere. Read his posts to see what he thinks.
Having in no way any thought of cheating or taking advantage of weaker players, I took umbrage at vegasvic's shouts during the Mini-Match Tournament last Saturday, and I said some things that I didn't mean to him personally. I thought I was personally under attack since Mini-Matches is my tournament now.
I don't think I had ever played a 2-pt match until Kari introduced this tourney last year. I have always had enthusiasm for the tourneys, and so, I played and learned. I enjoyed the variety, or something different. ;)
In my opinion, the playing of the 2-pt match is nothing more than the same that is played in any match of 3 or more when you arrive at a 2-away situation, and when this happens, if you know how to play it, the veteran player probably has an advantage over a novice player, if you understand the theory of the game.
To my way of thinking, since, presumably, the high rated player has the advantage over a novice player in any match. I certainly could be wrong about that, but that is the reason that I don't understand all the hoopla over the 2-point tourney.
Oh, and, of course, we have the rating system on Fibs which gives an advantage to lower ranked and lower experienced players. :rolleyes: Some veterans of Fibs even say the lower ranked player has an advantage over the play as well, since they insist Fibs dice are calculated to play against a high ranking player if he makes an error in play.
I personally don't care so much for my rating as for the fun of playing. Whether I win or lose doesn't matter so much in a free tourney. I consider it a way to improve myself by simply playing.
If you have any opinions about this, state them here, please. I would especially like to hear from the top rated players on Fibs about the 2-away issue and from vegasvic, specifically, here on fibsboard.
Thank you,
socksey
"We are in the position of a little child entering a huge library filled with books in many different languages. The child knows someone must have written those books . It does not know how. It does not understand the languages in which they are written. The child dimly suspects a mysterious order in the arrangement of the books but doesn't know what it is. That, it seems to me, is the attitude of even the most intelligent human being toward God. We see a universe marvelously arranges and obeying certain laws, but only dimly understand these laws. Our limited minds cannot grasp the mysterious force that moves the constellations." - Albert Einstein
Vic, I don't know ....
First of all I don't understand your argument .... I just plain don't understand it.
How in the world can you say that playing a certain matchlength is unethical or cheating?
backgammon can be played at any matchlength or open, without a matchlength.
Any of these changes make the game a little different and the winning techniques slightly change. That is part of the fun of the game. adjusting to parameters.
Backgammon is a game of skill, and part of the skill is adjusting your play to different parameters that come up. The cubing techniques at each and every score vary and it takes a lot of effort to master all of differences, but you can hardly call isolating one of these scores in a tournament 'cheating'.
In backgammon, generally, the longer a match is the more the skill will tend to outweigh the luck. The biggest change may come when you go from 1 to 2 points but it does not stop there. The total equity gain for the stronger player continues to grow as the match gets longer and longer. So you can hardly use the 'unfair' argument without seeing that it is more unfair to play longer matches.
2 point matches do, in fact, take more skill than 1 point matches, and may effectively have an unbalanced weight on the difference in rating, but you can hardly call that cheating. At most it's a flaw in the rating system. It would be ridiculous to ban or try to ban a type of match because the rating system is flawed.
Why should you try to control how much luck and how much skill there is in a certain type ofmatch ? Or, eliminate a certain type of match because there is too much luck or too much skill ? If we wanted to play a chess tournament on a chess server would you call it cheating because the weaker players have almost no chance to win ? and their poor rating will go down ?
2 point matches take more skill than 1 pointers but less skill than longer matches to win. This graduates over a different curve than the rating system ... but SO WHAT ? If a two point match happens to be the rating/skill ratio peak SO WHAT ? that is NO REASON to stop playing them. It may, in fact, mean the opposite. That we should embrace them and use them as a focal point for the intricacies of backgammon and play more of these matches because it helps start
to breed the kind of thinking that players need to master the game.
Playing 2 point matches are different, yes, but I really don't understand what you've been constantly ranting about. Hearing you call playing 2 point matches 'abusing backgammon' is really just laughable.
Diane ill point you to this little line
This means that at 2-away/1-away the stronger player
would still have about a 40% chance of winning the match but for
the weaker player it would only be 20%.
you will find more reading on stonger player vs weaker player in a 2away games at this site
http://www.bkgm.com/rgb/rgb.cgi?view+75 (http://www.bkgm.com/rgb/rgb.cgi?view+75)
i do not know what your chances are in a 11 game match but i assume you would have more then 20% chance of winning.
Please all of you i am not trying to take away something you guys think its fun , just admit it like you said here diane its like playing a one game for dbl the stakes
And your rationale is Vic it taught me how to play 2 aways fine now you know , do you still go on abusing the system and take down players that do not know?
my point is just that .
I feel i am not a bad player and that i would i am sure win more then lose in 2 gamers but i really find is so unfair to novice players that have no idea what there walking into . Even as sockseys says Vic ill put a disclamer and tell people,
i would still ask once you know the stratgy in a 2 away what is the value but to make more points?
its a 1 gamer with twice the stakes,
God sake ask anyone how you can change your rating playing 2 gamers all day with newbies
I don't want to get involved in this fight between certain persons but i have to say.. Vic has a point. Maybe not the point he thinks he is making but i agree with him it is not common practice to play 2-pointers.
Have you ever noticed that 3DFibs doesn't even allow you to invite 2 pointers through the standard inteface? Why do you think that is?
I know TucsonAZ (who created 3DFibs) well enough to know he did that for a reason, it is just not done!
Thank you WEB
QuoteI don't want to get involved in this fight between certain persons
Please - can this be considered a valid discussion about backgammon and move away from it being a personal issue - or a fight - it isnt! - and as donz says
Quotewe should embrace them and use them as a focal point for the intricacies of backgammon and play more of these matches because it helps start to breed the kind of thinking that players need to master the game.
That is exactly what happened for me - now, what worth do the rating points have on fibs really?? The key is to learn here - and take those skills on to real matches - where much more can be gained! (of course have fun too!!)
QuoteAnd your rationale is Vic it taught me how to play 2aways fine now you know , do you still go on abusing the system and take down players that do not know?
Well in truth I havent played one for ages - but - it isnt the way you make it sound - the strategy is shouted at the start - and often a discussion takes place while the signups are in progress. Now - the real answer to your question is yes. I absolutely would continue to talk about and teach new players about the two away rule - and how to play it - because it helped me enormously - why would I not share that???
i never said it should be limited to higher players
this is wrong i said if you are to have them make them evenly matched like 150-1550 or 1700-1750 and invite people to watch .
there is no reason once you know this stratgy to keep on playing them it is only for gaining more points at the expense of weaker players .
I wish so much that like other sites the tourneys could be unrated and played just for that fun
well they are rated and some things should be played and some should not be , only my opion here.
QuoteHave you ever noticed that 3DFibs doesn't even allow you to invite 2 pointers through the standard inteface? Why do you think that is?
It is not common, I agree, but it is done. I am told that 2 ptrs are a popular match length to play in some tournament circles at least.
Quotethere is no reason once you know this stratgy to keep on playing them it is only for gaining more points at the expense of weaker players .
Sorry if i misquoted you, Vic. If you played categories, I'm wondering how the lower rankers would ever learn anything, unless you propose a lesson environment. Maybe you would like to run a lesson tourney for newbies before my Mini-Matches on Saturdays? Maybe on Thursdays you could do that since you feel so strongly about it.
socksey
I have good looking kids. Thank goodness my wife cheats on me. - Rodney Dangerfield
Just to mention few live tournaments:
------------------------------------
LAS VEGAS BACKGAMMON OPEN
November 10-14, 2004; Las Vegas, Nevada
MINI-MATCH #1 (128): 1-Masahiko Nasu (Japan), 2-Osamu Omodera (Japan).
MINI-MATCH #2 (64): 1-Perry Gartner (NJ).
------------------------------------
ABT - MINNESOTA OPEN BACKGAMMON CHAMPIONSHIPS
October 29-31, 2004; Prior Lake, Minnesota
MINI-MATCHES (48): 1-Mike Sharp (CA).
------------------------------------
ABT - 53rd GAMMON ASSOCIATES INVITATIONAL BACKGAMMON TOURNAMENT
June 11-13, 2004; Los Angeles, California
2-POINT QUICKIES (48): 1-Judy Collins.
Well i for one will not play two pointers (i don't play tourneys anyway so why am i even commenting here?), simply because i don't want the hassle of typing my invite command by hand :lol:
Sockseyyyyyyyyyyyy
yes its done it is done as a money game
its a high stakes game it is not ment for this kind of forum
any leg you have on to stand is it is a tool to teach 2away then its over
no need to play them once you know how,
i reapeat 2 gamers in real life are played for money
you have a wager at lets say 100 dollors a point
and play it .
you win 2-1 you get 100 you win 2-0 you get 200
and if the weaker player cubes and gets gammoned suckerrrrrrrr he lost 400 dollors
yes socks that it is played is this what you want FIBS to be ?
there are money sites
i have seen Kari many times wants to play for money and use paypal or some other form
maybe this is what he would like to have 2 gamers and have it for money at the end of the day.
Fibs is not the place
Quotei have seen Kari many times wants to play for money and use paypal or some other form
Many times?? Only when NIHI has asked me in shouts to play for mone and only then. As I said you have a selective memory! :wacko:
Take your money games to Gamesgrid along with your 2 gamers Kari
Lets define the tern popular Ms socksey ?
they are not popular and are very rare .
ERM - what weaker player is playing a match for 100 dollars a point???? They are a sucker whatever else may happen!!!!! :lol:
vegas_vic, you are saying, 2 ptrs are the same as 1 ptrs, just at twice the stake.
That's not totally wrong, usually one of the players should double very early and the other should take so that only one game is played.
For weaker players I suggest to double always as fast as they are allowed to do. And I really mean always.
Twice the stake is not right, take a look at the rating formula.
I have a rating of 1825 at the moment. Let's say I play a 1 or a 2 pointer against a player with a rating of 1425,
rating difference is 400.
If my weaker opponent doubles immediately, I always have to take the double and we are playing only 1 game - similar to a 1 ptr.
With a 1 ptr I would win 1.55 points and lose 2.45 points. That means if I win 61% of all these 1 ptrs our ratings would not change. If I win more than 61% iin the long run my rating would rise and vice versa.
With a 2 ptr I would win 1.94 points and lose 3.72 points. That means if I win 66% of all these 1 ptrs our ratings would not change.
See, vegas_vic - 61% vs 66%. If my weaker opponent doubles always (A weak player participating in such a tourney should be able to understand this rule) he/she will have an advantage playing 2 ptrs instead of 1 ptrs.
So if you are interested in ratings: Good players should avoid 2 ptrs, weak players should prefer them to 1 ptrs.
(Of course, if a weak player forgets doubling - he is fooled. But hey, at least this is reflected in some way in the rating formula. As I said before - If you participate in such a tourney then you should have heard about doubling in 2 ptrs ...)
Vic, your premisse is false to begin with.
2pt matches don't wager twice as many rating points as a 1pt match, but just 1.4 times as much (square root of matchlength).
Second, FIBS rating system already accounts for the fact that longer matches favor the stronger player in terms of winning chances.
(type 'help ratings' on FIBS for the formula)
Example:
Strong (1900) plays Weak (1500) a 1pt match:
FIBS assumes Strong should win 61.3% of these.
If Strong wins, Strong gains 1.55 points, Weak loses those.
If Weak wins, Weak wins 2.45 points, Strong loses those.
Compare:
Strong (1900) plays Weak (1500) a 2pt match:
FIBS assumes Strong should win 65.7% of these(!).
If Strong wins, Strong gains 1.94 points, Weak loses those.
If Weak wins, Weak wins 3.72 points, Strong loses those.
CONCLUSION: If Strong wins, he only gets 0.39 extra rating points if it is a 2pt match. If Strong loses however, he loses 1.27 extra rating points.
Based on that, it's not at all clear stronger players would prefer 2pt matches. In fact it looks like 1pt matches are more advantegeous to stronger players.
Zwei Dumme, ein Gedanke.
Quote
For weaker players I suggest to double always as fast as they are allowed to do. And I really mean always.
(Of course, if a weak player forgets doubling - he is fooled. But hey, at least this is reflected in some way in the rating formula. As I said before - If you participate in such a tourney then you should have heard about doubling in 2 ptrs ...)
It is difficult to get this point across though - I have tried to explain it to many - but they resist it - much as I resisted it - and still do to some extent!! Thats the great thing about looking at this situation via this tournament - it gives it much more meaning to a new player - and empirical evidence is always great for changing resistant minds :D
And thanks for doing the maths on the rating change for me - I knew from experience it favoured the weaker player - but that formula makes my head spin!!
Chris
i am not complaning here that i was taken in a 2 gamer. i played their 2 gamer one time and won the tourney. that is not my point. my point is and always will be that people walk into these things without knowing and are taken.
as for your example, you, as the stronger player, still have a 40% to 20% chance of winning ia 2 away 1 away match at the weaker players error rate.
Now if you take the cube and where the game is then ill agree with your example that the weaker player has a little better chance,
here it all lies in the fact the weaker player has no choice in these types of games.
Look i have played many a 2 gamers for money and for fun , i just keep on coming back to if it is so popular why havent i seen a 2 game invite? in 70,000 matches and why do the bots not take 2 game invites ?
why do some interfaces won't allow 2 gamers
there are reasons for all this , its manupulating the rating is all .
Now i am feeling like a broken record .
Please people go play all the 2 gamers you like , its not my game and anyone having a rating that is gained by 2 gamers i say they are limited in there understanding of the game
Why do bots not take 2 gamers ?
why do some interfaces won't let you play them ?
and as far as who is favored go read kit woolsey on 2 away
even if weaker player cubes stronger player can refuse and play two away 1 away and still have the odds in his side with gammon chances and error rate .
Sorry it just doesnt wash with me and its not fair to players that do not know as much as we do here .
2pt matches don't manipulate ratings anymore than f.i. 1pt matches do.
If some clients don't allow them, that is just plain silly.
One thing is clear though, if only because of this thread: you don't have to be a weak player to misunderstand 2pt matches.
Zorba then stop ######ing about how NIHLIST got to 2300 ok ?
He sure as hell was not cheating just a healthy diet of 2 gamers early on . ask him your self !!
Look i dont want to insult anyone here and i like someone not to inslut my ability to play this game.
I have played it on all levels and two gamers are not done and if they are done only rare times for money,.
Play all the 2's you guys want i made my beef
I wont say a word about the mini matches anymore and i hope you all enjoy them and have fun with it ,
Zorba maybe you want to go look at the post i responded to diane with , look at the advantage a stronger player has at even 2 away 1 away.
40% 20% still stronger player should win ,
I wasn't "######ing" about NIHILIST; you are attacking TD's without REALLY knowing the facts about the rating system or 2pt match play.
But anyway, since when is NIHILIST a reliable source for anything? He lies about everything, even his own cheating.
One of NIHI's favorite ways of cheating was to make sure his opponents were overrated.
And with Bob Ebbeler's many accounts, there are sure plenty of easier ways to cheat even.
But fortunately this is all in the past. Bob Ebbeler's true bg skills are well reflected in his "NIHolympic" rating of around 1750.
"the advantage a stronger player has at even 2 away 1 away.
40% 20% still stronger player should win ,"
This makes no sense to me at all. Can you elaborate on this?
First lets take out NIHl from this discussion.
i think you know his skill level well as i do and it is high and for his new nick for your info
he is messing with backgames
here is this site you can go to http://www.bkgm.com/rgb/rgb.cgi?view+75 (http://www.bkgm.com/rgb/rgb.cgi?view+75)[/URL]
is also worth considering that take-points are very different
when one player can win an even position 58.5% of the time. Gammon
rates will also be different -- gammons might be something like
30% of the stronger player's wins but only 15% for the weaker
player. This means that at 2-away/1-away the stronger player
would still have about a 40% chance of winning the match but for
the weaker player it would only be 20%.
I am sorry NIHl i dragged you into this :(
chris you are wrong you do not always have to take the cube being a strong player .
if you listen to kit or other experts you still have a 40% to 20% wining at 2away 1 away
i am assuming you might value your gammoning ablity as they do at 30% for stronger player and 15% for weaker player
So here i read that as the stronger player i still have a shot at winning the match by refusing
the weaker player has no choice. he or she has to cube. all advantage is stronger player. all the flexabilty is on his side.
It still makes no sense at all. Stronger players always have "all the advantage". That's why they are stronger players.
Nowhere on this site do I read any expert saying that 2pt matches are "unfair" or anything.
In fact, none even mentioned FIBS rating system.
BTW, both the stronger and the weaker player can and should sometimes refuse a double at -2,-2. It's also possible either player should play on for the gammon from some point.
All things considered, there's a lot going on in a 2pt match. Some simple statements aren't going to demonstrate anything about them being "unfair". You'd need a lot of math to make your point and probably even a lot of statistical data.
Fine i Pull back my objection
2game tourneys and 2 game matches are a very good addition to fibs.
i wont play in them.
thx for pointing out how off the mark i was and i wish you all luck in your wonderful tourney.
Vic
Still 2 gamers are nothing but bull crap !!
:)
Zorba now i see how you frustrate others
You asked me about the 40% 20% i posted it for you . you dont even respond to that
you repond to where does it say 2 gamers are unfair .
Well no where is there a mention of 2 game tourneys i am sorry they all talk about 2away games
and you read a little more and i am sure you will see the light .
I've played in quite a few tournaments where there were 2 point side tourneys. It's a nice way to spend a few minutes while you're waiting for your next match in the main tourney. Sure, a more experienced and better player is going to have an advantage, but the better players have an advantage in any point length tourney. In a 2 pointer, all a lesser player needs is a little streak of luck to carry them through, especially if they cube right away, so it's not like anyone is getting raped here. Socksey certainly doesn't need to play a 2 pointer to take advantage of me.
My response to the "40% 20%" was indirect, but simple: all this says is that stronger players win more often than weaker players from the same matchscore. There's nothing new about that and it happens in all matches.
Basically Walter Trice is saying in that article, that cube handling against weaker players can be quite difficult in 2pt matches.
In no way does he suggest that this would be "unfair" to the weaker player.
From my own experience, I'd say that 2pt matches against weaker players can be interesting if they don't double you. But it's far from easy to get the most out of it. You better know all the math involved to start with, and there's judgement of the opponent involved as well.
I don't think this is really the place to discuss these technical match play issues. I'd be willing to engage in any further discussion about this in itself interesting subject, but on USENET r.g.b. where there's much more expertise available.
Zorba i am done
Ill reapeat one last time PLAY ALL THE 2 GAMERS YOU LIKE
i find it not a level playing field for the weaker player that doesnt understand the stratagy of cubing .
Please i dont want to get into any math with you or Chris, my concern was to have new players and novice player taken in this kind of game .
maybe now you all are talking they have a better understanding and can play or not to play
I will not play and i never had them in any of my tournements.
Good luck to you in them >
It's hard to believe that Vic is (a) so willing to expose his own ignorance and (B) so unreceptive to the many clear and polite posts that have utterly dismantled his position. Two point matches are commonplace as a side event in tournaments, usually for a very low stake and very popular and they are also commonplace for no stake on Gamesgrid where there is a twice daily 2-point match tournament. It is perfectly true that the more skilful player has an advantage, by why does Vic object to this? A game where the better player has no advantage is Ludo. The longer the match length, the greater the advantage that the better player has, so longer matches are even more unfair according to Vic's "logic".
Weak players note; turn the cube on the first roll, regardless. This may be clearly right or it may make no difference or it may be a minute error, so just turn it and get it over with. For the stronger player it is usually correct to wait until the water has been muddied a little, to take advantage of the incorrect takes and passes that he can expect later. 2-pointers are fun and a good oportunity for newbies to play somebody better, thus learning something. Sadly, Vic appears to be incapable of learning anything. We should extend our sympathy to him.
Well said Dorbel, as allways you are right on the mark.
Buyer beaware >
That is all i have to say and for all of you wanting to help newbies and novice players learn how handle 2away 2away games, I am very pleased that before the tourney it was pointed out to them as to why you are playing such a game and what they should do and hope for the best.
Fun maybe is it backgammon ? no
I have my own opinion and i don't think i have insulted anyone that has responded .
i think zorba made a referance of my lack of understanding .
Look all said and done i made my feelings known i find it a disservice to new and novice players and a way for better players to abuse same players .
Nothing here changes my mind it's like bottom feeting yes your chances of losing more rating point is higher but in the long run your winning against lower rated players are much higher.
This is what i believe and from my reading the stronger player has all the deck of cards on his side weaker player has one to cube and just hope for the best , that to me is not backgammon, or should it be,. have fun with the tourney .
QuoteTake your money games to Gamesgrid along with your 2 gamers Kari
QuoteIhave my own opion and i don think i have insulted anyone that has responded .
hmmmmm... :wacko:
Anyways Kari i have never asked anyone in FIBS to play me for money and use paypal .
i have seen you a many times shout that .
i spoke to Patti she has no problems with the 2 game she finds that there is a cube statagy and that the people that join are on there own.
so like i said the buyer beware
What ever turns you on boys and girls ,
my last post on the subject i dont find 2 games of any value to fibs comunity.
Vic,
I know you believe strongly what you are saying about this game and I know you have the best interests of Fibs in your heart. However, since Patti has no objection to the 2-pt tourney, I will continue to have it.
You can rest assured the disclaimer will be included in shouts for the novices, so you have made an improvement for them. Although I did try to notify them in the past, it was done in a haphazard way, not done on a regular basis or with a regular pattern. I'm sure I missed some players, so this way, all will know of the pitfalls they can encounter in this game and decide for themselves if they want to play.
If popularity continues, then gogogiz and I will continue to host Mini-Matches with the addition of one other host possible.
Thank you for your concern for Fibs newbies. :)
socksey
"A fast word about oral contraception. I asked a girl to go to bed with me, she said 'no'." Woody Allen
Lets say a 1800 player play a 1400 player
In a 1-pointer the strong is expected to win 61% wheras in a 2-pointer, the strong is expected to win 66%.
So obviously the weaker player will pick up many rating points if she choses to double immediately and probably lose as many rating points in the cases where the weaker and stronger choses to drag it out more games (More skill involved, different takepoint, GG and GS checker play and so on).
Does this mean it should be forbidden? Not in my opinion, but still 2-point matches is pretty uninteresting and usually used as a rating ploy.
Bye the way, I think cubeless 2-point matches could be interesting.
Regards
Quotechris you are wrong you do not always have to take the cube being a strong player .
if you listen to kit or other experts you still have a 40% to 20% wining at 2away 1 away
i am assuming you might value your gammoning ablity as they do at 30% for stronger player and 15% for weaker player
So here i read that as the stronger player i still have a shot at winning the match by refusing
the weaker player has no choice. he or she has to cube. all advantage is stronger player. all the flexabilty is on his side.
Sorry, I dont get this vic
The strong player must of course take as long as she is inside the takepoint, or are you talking about players who move the checkers at random?
MND
Yes of course he has to take if he is in the take point of 30%
MND .
I guess you said it better then i did i have no desire to ban anyones fun here in fibs.
My thing was to point out how unfair it was to players that do not know .
And once you do know the cube stratagy then the game is up and it becomes as you said a rating ploy ,
I think also what you said about maybe it should be a 2 pt cubless game i would buy that .
much more intresting .
What i was also trying to say was Kits thinking was , the stronger player really doesnt have to cube he can wait for a better position , but the weaker player has to no matter and try to bring it up to 50% %50%
I just wanted the uniformed be informed .
PSS i am happy Diane the 2pt helped you undersand the -2 2- game you can google 2away game and read to your hearts content on the subject .
Yours
Vic
Quote
PSS i am happy Diane the 2pt helped you undersand the -2 2- game you can google 2away game and read to your hearts content on the subject .
So can any newbie...thing is just like them - I had no idea such a thing existed to google....
Well now that you understand it what is the use of playing a inflated tourney ?
fun right ?
Still hold the opion its bull !!
Like MND said its a manupulation and why not make it a 2pt with no cube if you like mini's
Anyways i am not the police here and i am happy at least you guy's will tell novice and newbies they have to cube first .
thx for all your responses to this idot and not a nice person
Sincerly
victor Vic
Oddly enough, the majority of these matches turn out to be cubeless - since it is very hard to convince people that the theory is sound.. :D
Right you are, diane! Since I have been running this tourney, I have had occasion to watch innumerable matches and only a small percentage of players cube right away...........very small. Maybe that will change, now. :wacko:
socksey
"I hate to advocate drugs, alcohol, violence, or insanity to anyone, but they've always worked for me." - Hunter S. Thompson
I honestly have no clue why Vegas Vic singled me out to start this thread nor do I care what he says except to point out that I've never bothered to cheat the rating system, nor have I requested RepBot vouches for myself or for any multi-ids as vic has done. I have none, vic does.
If Vic has a problem with cheaters on FIBS or gratuitous egos abusing RepBot, I wish he'd leave me out of the discussion and use a mirror.
By the way... in the event anyone is curious about the bogus two-point scam that vic accused me of in the post that opens this thread:
- Play matches with low rated players;
- Select those poor players with high experience;
- Play them for two for rapid advance in ratings because they don't understand the cube.
This is more or less the NIHI formula which I've never bothered with. Please consult with the
best players on FIBS (NIHILIST, Biggles_whatever) for clarification. (Most of these fools have mulit-IDs)
I think I probably introduced 2 point matches to FIBS when I created my NIHILIST nick. The idea was to develop some strategies that might come in handy in real 2 away-2 away situations. I was inspired to do this by a player named one_pointer who did a similar experiment with 1 point matches, then posted his thoughts on RGB. I took a lot of heat for everything from ripping off poor, unsuspecting newbies to cheating the FIBS rating system, none of which I care about.
As has been pointed out here, the lower rated player's upside is greater in 2 pointers than in 1 pointers. He just has to grasp the concept of doubling ASAP and then, of course, winning. So who's getting ripped off ? If FIBS is a tool to better one's game for real life play, hopefully the newbie or intermediate will learn something about cube handling that will serve him well in real situations.
Patti has endorsed the concept, saying she finds a STRATEGY present in 2 pointers. As far as playing 2 point tourneys on FIBS, my feeling is it adds another dimension. For those who object, there are plenty of other tourney opportunities.
SHALOM !
NIHI
Well lets just end it here.
becuse it looks like don has arrived and the thread will go in a different direction.
After you get the cube asap theroy, what other stratagey is there?
its a pointless 2 pt match :))
QuoteFirst I will have to ask you all to bear with all my mistakes here and hope that you will get my point; Second I do not want to sound like Don and be ######ing about nothing, I find 2 game tourneys or 2 game matches as having no value but to inflate a 1 gamer, meaning its played as a one game for twice the rating points.
don,
how is this singling you out? vic is singling out my mini-matches. mention of you was coincidental, i believe, unless i am reading it wrong. ^_^
socksey
"The Bible contains six admonishments to homosexuals and 362 admonishments to heterosexuals. That doesn't mean that God doesn't love heterosexuals. It's just that they need more supervision." - Lynn Lavner
A long thread, and still ZERO evidence that 2pt matches would somehow be "unfair" to newbies.
It's complete nonsense to "warn" players about 2pt matches.
There's nothing about a 2pt match that makes it less fair to newbies or weak players than f.i. a 1pt match or 3pt match.
Strong players are SUPPOSED to have an advantage. Unlike some players seem to think, backgammon is not all about lucky dice.
BTW, the takepoint in a 2pt match for the stronger player is quite a lot higher than 30%... How much higher? Being able to determine that is one of the things that makes one a stronger player!
There's a lot to learn about 2pt matches... for weaker players AND for stronger players.
Anyhow, the 2pt tourneys aren't about STRONG players vs. WEAK players. You get paired randomly. If a 1900 player plays a 1700 player there's a good chance the 1700 player will cube in time and then the strong player has the worst of it... he'd rather have played a 1ptr.
Well for all situations there are advantages and disadvantages.
The only question here is...what Mini-matches' owner should do?
Option 1:Match length 1 point. My personal opinion is that such an action will give us less pleasure...
Option 2:Match length 3+ points.... But this won't be consistent with the current tourney name "Minimatches"
I don't think that a tourney should die because some people don't like 2 point matches. Their best reaction is to stay away from this tourney and leave it running with the way it runs now.
Well, if we were to make them mini-skirt matches, there would be a lot less complaints
Adam FYI, they should not not do nothing.
It's a 2pt tourney, some may like it, some may hate it!!
I started it a long ago and lots of players are playing in it in every tourney!!
It's there, live with it. Socksey and gogo are doing a great job with it.
End of discussion, start your own tourneys if you dont like it!!
Kari
Who said that they should do something, Kari?
I know that they do great job....and i agree totally with you....
I only posted some arguments to tell that nothing can be done. The tourney must continue running with the way it runs now....
I forgot to ask you Kari. What does FYI mean?
QuoteEnd of discussion, start your own tourneys if you donââ,¬â,,¢t like it!!
I hope you did not write this for me... All players know that I support all Fibs tourneys. Thatââ,¬â,,¢s why I had the idea for the creation of Tourneystatsbot....
FYI = For your information.
QuoteWho said that they should do something, Kari?
At least one would have had us end this tourney, Adam. Haven't you read the whole thread?
socksey
"Freedom is just Chaos, with better lighting." - Alan Dean Foster
QuoteI hope you did not write this for me... All players know that I support all Fibs tourneys. Thatââ,¬â,,¢s why I had the idea for the creation of Tourneystatsbot....
No, it was a comment for everybody. Lets stop this nonsense thread and move along ;)
Thx u Socksey for the explanation. I didn't know that. Consequently i misunderstood.
You are right Kari. Lets move along....
FYI
YOU ALL NEED A LIFE , 2PT ARE NOTHING BUT CRAP .
NOT EVEN A TOURNEY IN MY EYES OR A MATCH ,
SO WHY YOU PLAY WITH A DIFFERENT NICK (TOURNEY_boy) STILL IN MINI MATCHES???????
Will you guys stop shouting please, i'm not blind! :lol:
QuoteSO WHY YOU PLAY WITH A DIFFERENT NICK (TOURNEY_boy) STILL IN MINI MATCHES???????
:LOOOL:
Hey Kari and Diane
i play tourney_boy to tweak both your sorry Arses :)
Kari you are a pice of work
:)
It is a sorry state for FIBS when you can get banned for having an opion about the length a given tourney.
Tourney_boy was banned by Mr Kari because he asked me why i played tourney_boy
i had replied that to tweak Diane and him :) .
I guess its your tourney my boy and you can have anyone you like to play or not to play.
Your behavior in all this is nothing but a POWER PLAY.
Quotei play tourney_boy to tweak both your sorry Arses
I rest my case
QuoteIt is a sorry state for FIBS when you can get banned for having an opion about the length a given tourney.
Tourney_boy was banned by Mr Kari because he asked me why i played tourney_boy
i had replied that to tweak Diane and him :) .
I guess its your tourney my boy and you can have anyone you like to play or not to play.
Your behavior in all this is nothing but a POWER PLAY.
QuoteIt is a sorry state for FIBS when you can get banned for having an opion about the length a given tourney.
You never did - read back - first few posts - I asked this be a discussion - since it was valid - and not a slanging match - if it ended that way - it was not my fault - nor Kari nor socksey.
Quotei had replied that to tweak Diane and him :) .
I have no idea why you would think this would 'tweak' me - I found it amusing - as my post said - and am also glad you are taking the given opportunity to learn some strategy - just as the other learners are :D
QuoteYour behavior in all this is nothing but a POWER PLAY.
Power - erm what power?? tell me - I like power - I missed something - clearly :D
In particular, since I have never played, nor hosted Fridays3, and I gave up hosting and playing in minimatches last year- what are you striving for??. When ya got something rational to say vic - let us all in on it - until then - rant elsewhere!
Let me repeat my self for the 100th time diane
once you know the 2away 2away stategy what is the point of playing them?
besides just fun ? when its a one gamer play for 2 pt ratings ?
i ask what is the point once you know this ?
i guess i am a purest when it comes to this game . have fun my intent here never was to kill your fun .
my intent was to let other in on your secret where none of you ever took the trouble of doing.
and took all comers as suckers at a three card monte game .
i rest my case /
QuoteLet me repeat my self for the 100th time diane
once you know the 2away 2away stategy what is the point of playing them?
besides just fun ?
i ask what is the point once you know this ?
my intent was to let other in on your secret where none of you ever took the trouble of doing.
When I hosted minis - we discussed the strategy before every tournament - Kari had a shout written and saved that he would shout before each one - explaining how it worked. It was shouted in the same way we shout things like..standings available at..etc. Furthermore, someone would take isssue with the theory - often me (it took me a long time to get it :D ) So please do NOT say we never tried to tell anyone!!
What other reason is there to play any game - but for fun??
And let me repeat myself once more - if you stop playing when you understand it - how do you pass the knowledge on?? And dont suggest they google it - the point is new players are not AWARE there is a strategy to google - this brings it to their attention.
Now - for the 100th time (well it feels like it) - the new player - using the strategy, has a good chance of beating a better player, and they risk a small loss for a big win (as proven here by more than one contributor). Anyone who enjoys gambling will find that an appealing and fun bet!
And one more thing - since you DO play in the tournament (albeit with a different nick) - and I dont - using any nick - what is your point again??
I play a different nick to keep you all from the glory :)
not to make points or to have fun playing a thre card monte game !!
And Ms Diane i have never played but once in a mini again to prove its just bull
Ok socksey i am sorry !!
i wont enter your mini matchs ever again and i wont say a word about them.
Hope this will do .
Sorry again to cause you pain.
Closing this topic now.
Why is this closed?
QuoteOk socksey i am sorry !!
i wont enter your mini matchs ever again and i wont say a word about them.
Hmmm it seems it isnt - and so...that didnt last long - did it ;)
Hmmm, this match report tonight caught my eye....
vegasvic wins a 2 point match against Costello 6-0 .
Hmmmm, is he trying to perk up a rating, or practising his two away skills??
I also couldnt help wondering who cubed, vic or Costello.... :D
i thought vegasvic didnt play 2 pt matches? am i missing something here????
I think it varies, hour by hour :D
Sometimes minute to minute. :wacko:
socksey
"The secret of a good sermon is to have a good beginning and a good ending and having the two as close together as possible." - George Burns
This has been an interesting read, and something I would like to investigate a little further with you Kraz. Please remind me in a couple of days if I forget, as I think my head is around it, even with all the numbers.. but i want to make sure. ty darlin. hugs
In case you are interested in playing 2 point matches in particular, our down under version of minimatches is 'Saturday Stubbies', playing on saturday afternoon for you :cool: Check it out, it would be nice to have you join in.
I did join in... but i need to play more in order to get my head totally around the strategy behind it. That's why I was asking Kraz to look into it for me.
Thanks. :)
Yup, it takes practice, and that is why the tournaments run. Keep entering, until you have a good feel for it at least - then do it just for fun ;)