I suggest that repbot only accepts vouches or complaints from members that have played a match together. This helps to eliminate ganging up on new players from buddies of the disgruntled. If members agree to this idea then this should be a repbot suggestion.
Comments?
I don't think that is a good idea.
I want to be able to complain about someone who misbehaves in a match that i watched for instance.
Alsi it is technical very hard to do since Fibs doesn not give access to the played games list.
QuoteI suggest that repbot only accepts vouches or complaints from members that have played a match together.
Nice idea, since I advocate only using repbot complaints against droppers, but since it is not programmed that way, you would have to get a programmer to make a new repbot with that in the works.
However, I confess being in a "gang" who ganged up on some newbie recently who went after one of my friends in shout. God help me, I even joined the "rat pack" group in this endeavor! Or, did they join me? I feel so soiled! :tears:
socksey
"Genius may have its limitations, but stupidity is not thus handicapped." - Elbert Hubbard
Nice thought, jonesey, but not very practical (as has been pointed out). The only objective measure is the saved-match list that RepBot accesses ( FIBS saved matches (http://www.fibs.com/savedgames/list.html) ). It is nice that RepBot makes it so easy to get the info, or some of it. But all of the other RepBot functions are purely subjective and, as you point out, liable to misuse and abuse. I've seen RepBot used as a joke to drive new users away from FIBS.
Quotehttp://www.fibs.com/savedgames/list.html (http://www.fibs.com/savedgames/list.html)
:angry: and even this list ia a joke.... it mention saved games as well as games who have been fully played ( never saved )... everything can be manupulated. If you want to see FIBS as a serious gammon site, start to keep it up to date !! :grrr:
Quoteand even this list ia a joke.... it mention saved games as well as games who have been fully played ( never saved )... everything can be manupulated. If you want to see FIBS as a serious gammon site, start to keep itÃ, up to date !!Ã, :grrr:
This list is updated once per day - and as far as I have seen - it is very accurate. The only time it is off a little, is if it updates whilst you are playing a match. The match you are playing counts as a saved game - so for 24 hours repbot will inform you that you have a saved match with someone you finished playing against hours ago! (If you have the alert function on, as I do).
Today is a case in point - my saved games today are listed as
Quotediane - janela, mgnu_WClass
I was playing with janela this morning at the time the list updated - and the match is now finished - but will remain on the list until tomorrow. And as for the bot - maybe one day I will catch up with it ... ;)
QuoteThe only objective measure is the saved-match list that RepBot accesses
As it is now this is true. A new database would have to be developed that holds ordered pairs of player names (or ID numbers) and a date last played. Repbot would query this before registering a vouch or complaint. I don't think the database would be too complicated nor the added query.
guess this is dead
The main problem is finding someone willing to do any updates etc to repbot - even if it did seem a popular idea. I could suggest a poll (God help me!!!) to find out firstly if the idea is very popular - then you get task of finding someone who wants to, and can do it
i find it a very good idea.
repbot uses the active list of unsaved games and the list from the day before. if will count only the match of players in both lists. that's what burper explained to me.
the solution for adding this feature to repbot can be very easy, i think: repbot checks all fibs-messages. one message contains the match-end. something like "player1 wins a n-point-match against player2 n:m". sorry, cannot write the exact message at work.
repbot has only to track the played games:
- add player2 to a list of played games player1
- add player1 to a list of played games of player2
and if someone wishes to complain someone, repbot can check, if the player is on the list of played games.
greetings
amarganth
This is very much underway - thanks for you efforts jonsey - it sounds a much improved system. :D
QuoteThis is very much underway - thanks for you efforts jonsey - it sounds a much improved system. :D
.... as long as the list DON'T mention saved games that never have been played...
( I have a saved game with BUCKY... never heard of... never played her/him..).. :tears:
Quote( I have a saved game with BUCKY... never heard of... never played her/him..).
It could only happen to you shades :D
QuoteQuote( I have a saved game with BUCKY... never heard of... never played her/him..).
It could only happen to you shades :D
.... :blush:
http://www.marryanamerican.ca/ (http://www.marryanamerican.ca/)
There have already been revisions to the suggestion.
Here are new ideas.
From the user's point of view, complaining or vouching would be the same. However, with the aide of another simple database, (using data fibs already collects) repbot could weight vouches/complaints based on:
Were you dropped ----------------- highest weight
Have you played before ---------- average weight
Never played ------------------------ lowest weight
Also, vouches/complaints from member names no longer using fibs would dissappear.
jonesyjt
I have to say - these sound like fine improvements - and thx for taking them on jonesy, I look forward to using them! :D
Do you still intend to add weight for 'length of service' as the current system does?
...and do you really believe that the ladies-fibsters will tell you their wight??.. :P
Diane,
Yes,
what I mean by "weighted" is a percentage of the complainer's experience or "length of service" as it has been called. At this point, I still advocate a maximum limit, but this could be debated.
From the user's point of view, complaining or vouching would be the same. However, with the aide of another simple database, (using data fibs already collects) repbot could weight vouches/complaints based on:
Were you dropped ----------------- highest weight | full experience up to some max.
Have you played before ---------- average weight | some lesser percentage of exp.
Never played ------------------------ lowest weight | even lesser percentage of exp.
Also, vouches/complaints from member names no longer using fibs would dissappear.
jonesyjt
It all sounds good - I am curious though - how will repbot know if you have ever played? I can see how it would check for a saved match -but didnt think there was a way to tell if you simply played and finished a match.
It would have to save all match result messages that fibs generates. So this database will grow rapidly. Maybe it is even better to generate a second bot for that, lets say a database bot. This way we can use the results for other stuff too.
Just my 1 cent ;)
Diane,
QuoteIt all sounds good - I am curious though - how will repbot know if you have ever played? I can see how it would check for a saved match -but didnt think there was a way to tell if you simply played and finished a match.
It probably slipped by, but I mentioned that a new simple database would also have to be developed consisting of ordered pairs of player names, and a date.
QuoteFrom the user's point of view, complaining or vouching would be the same. However, with the aide of another simple database, (using data fibs already collects)
This new database would come from data already collected as soon as a match starts. This database along with the saved games database will give the required info needed for this task. The new database only needs hold an ordered pair once, NOT every game ever played, so the order is at most n^2 plus the date field. (That is if every member plays every other member.) This is quite manageable.
If all comes to pass, there would have to be a transition period for a new repbot that works in this way especially because as of now, there is no database as mentioned.
Everyone,
Think on this a bit, and give some feedback.
jonesyjt
OK, I feel very strongly about this topic. RepBot has, without a doubt, made my life worse, and from where I sit I believe that it is a negative addition to FIBS. RepBot is fundamentally flawed in its current implementation.
I've been studying reputation systems fairly intensely over the last couple of weeks as part of my job, so this discussion is particularly timely. (RepBot has served as a fine example of a badly-designed system, and many people in my company are now familiar with it.)
Ebay has an interesting and useful, if minimal, rating system only because they have complete control over the transaction. You can't contribute to someone's reputation unless you have completed a transaction with them, and you can only contribute once. It's possible to create fake accounts and transactions in order to boost someone's rating, but there's a monetary cost in doing so that makes it largely not worth your while. Additionally, you have a limited window of time in which to express an opinion.
The fatal flaw in RepBot is that anyone can express an opinion on anyone, and it counts. This sucks for me, because it means that I spend a lot of time cleaning up accounts from jerks who create multiple accounts just to slam someone or boost their rating. I get about an equivalent number of complaints from people about jerks who do this, largely from morons who can't read read the help text to see that I'm not responsible for what happens on RepBot.
In order to make an effective reputation system, the system must be changed so that you can only express an opinion about someone with whom you have recently completed a match. This data is readily available merely from watching the report output. (It is not "technical (sic) very hard to do", as one author suggested, but is actually quite trivial to implement.) One day's worth of data should be sufficient; if you can't muster an opinion within the first 24 hours, then you don't really need to do so. Of course, if you play another match, that window opens for another 24 hours.
If someone misbehaves in a match that you've watched, then it's up to the wronged opponent to file a complaint if they choose to-- ganging up on the perpetrator shouldn't be allowed.
Someone questioned the validity of the savedgames list. Actually, I'm being polite-- they called it a joke. I personally believe that this list is highly accurate *as the list is defined*. By definition, it includes matches that are currently in process, as well as those that have been played recently but have not yet expired from the system. I'm not certain of the expiry window, but it's less than 24 hours and may be as short as six hours. The list is updated nightly, and I have never once received a complaint about that not happening on schedule. (If it has, please let me know.) [1]
The problem is that people have chosen to interpret the savedgames list as an incompleted matches list, and that was never its intent. The caveats about the usage of the list are clearly stated at the top of the page. On the other hand, even with these caveats, the list does a reasonably good job of identifying who has many incompleted matches and who has only a few.
On my more cynical days, when I've had half a dozen people grousing at me that so and so filed a bogus complaint against them, I've been tempted to just give the bot the boot. Suffice it to say that I would be very strongly in favor of someone fixing this thing so that it stops being a pain in my ass.
-Patti
[1] There is a problem with FIBS that causes bogus matches to be saved sometimes when the server crashes. I have no way of detecting these, but FIBS doesn't crash very often and even when it does not all matches wind up in this state. I don't believe there's ever more than one per person, so this bug should have only a tiny impact on any individual's saved game count.
P.S. I have match logs going back to late 2002, and possibly earlier. Should the system be altered so that opinions are only accepted from people who have played a match together, it would take me about twenty lines of code to produce a list of all opponents who have played at least one match against each other. This list could be used to validate "good" complaints and vouches, and all others could be removed from the system.
This list would not be 100% accurate, since accounts are often deleted for inactivity and then the handle is assumed by another individual, but this effect should be so small as to be negligible.
P.P.S. I would expect relatively strong pushback from the people who currently form cabals to gang up on people they don't like.
Thanks Patti
That was to be said
...sounds like a pretty accurate presentation to me, Patti. Some of your points have been made before, but your suggestions for implementation are new and excellent (and no surprise since you are the one who knows best what's available from FIBS for support).
Kutchie kutchie koo to you too!
P.^n S. I just wrote that script; it took more time to run it than it did to code it. There are right around 900K unique opponent pairings since November of 2002. Should this change be implemented, I will provide a current list to whoever is responsible for purging the database of nonqualifying vouches and complaints.
Incidentally the most frequent pairing:
MonteCarlo magee : 3345
Seems we are progressing toward a superior system which makes me very happy.
How about implementing the awarding of a win to droppees when winning is immanent? So happens the player I was playing this evening when you shut down Fibs for a minute, Patti, didn't return to resume my 7 ptr win almost completed.
:(
socksey
"He is brilliant - to the top of his boots." - David Lloyd George
Can't do that without modifying the FIBS codebase itself, and that's not gonna happen.
Death to droppers! :angry: After torture! :D
socksey
"Some people say they haven't yet found themselves. But the self is not something one finds; it is something one creates." - Thomas Szasz, Hungarian-born psychiatrist
Many thanks to Patti! :cool:
Patti and I had a good long discussion on these issues and she has been a wealth of knowledge for me. This project is still in the planning phase but IS moving forward. Thanks for everyones input and support. :)
jonesyjt :yes:
This is all great to hear - I am glad a project which has some enthusiasm from Patti is in the offing - since as was said - she knows the system best - and also gets all the - erm 'feedback' that the rest of us miss.
I wasnt aware the creation of new accounts to slam someone was such a problem - since a new account has very little sway with repbot - but I guess a lot dont know that.
Now I understand how the played matches would be kept track of - and you are right - I missed that first time round - sorry - not very technical here :blush: I am very pleased to see the system can also be 'back dated' - this should straighten out a lot of already bogus reps.
Many thanks to you jonesyjt for undertaking the improvement of repbot :yes: :D From what I can see it looks like a large task - and I will wait patiently for the new era :D
All we would really need to fix the current problems with repbot is to have a minor change to fibs. If the oldboard command was changed or overloaded so that it could take 2 parameters , oldboard(player, opponent) , then it would be possible for an outside party to creat a bot, based on gnu that evaluates the saved matches for a player. this bot could then award dropper points based on the ammount of negative equity a person has for each saved match. It would be a completely automated way to expose droppers and would NOT be subject to manipulation by players. The upside is HUGE on several fronts and all that is necessary is a small change to one of the functions (5min to 1hr work changing oldboard and a recompile)
I believe a bot that could operate like this would effectively eliminate the dropper problem on fibs not to mention the complaints etc. that Patti gets.
What about complaining about abusers you've never played with? I imagine a lot of people file a complaint because of inane shouting, verbal abuse, rudeness, hogging the bots, creating fake tourneys etc., not just because they were dropped in a match ...
Not that I play on FIBS that much, but I'd like to keep the ability to complain about people who insult my mother in shouts, even if I've never played with them ... (That hasn't really happened, I'm just trying to make a point).
I thought about this too - there are times when I think a complaint is justified for some reason other than they actually dropped me. BUT I think the overall gains from this new system will outweigh the small losses. As no one will be able to vouch for - or complain against someone they have never played - there can be no artificially high reputations - and the reps will be more accurate - so the need for extra complaints is removed. :)
And trying to understand donzaemons contribution :wacko: - do you mean change that command so it can be accessed by any interested third party. As I understand it - the oldboard can only be accessed by either player - so for a bot to work the command would need to be altered to allow the bot to check it?
Yeah, It would mean that a third party could access anyone else's oldboard. This, in itself, could have an impact on droppers because it would be easy for anyone to see who dropped in cases where an obvious lost game was left. More importantly, though, is the ability to create a robot that uses this to assign 'dropper equity' to players based on the accumulated negative equity they have in their saved matches. This could easily identify droppers on the server. And a robot wouldn't have to be based solely on this ... it would be possible to have it handle complaints as well, but the point is the power it would have to accurately identify droppers, and it would all be done automatically.
QuoteDeath to droppers! :angry: After torture! :D
socksey
... be tortured by you may be a rare pleassure.... hehe... :rolleyes:
I seem to have been unclear earlier.
Changes to the FIBS code itself just aren't going to happen. Period. Full stop. I don't have access to the source code.
The problem with multiple accounts is that people create many accounts, throw matches between them in order to boost experience, and then gang up on the person they want to harass. Victim comlains to me, and I spend time digging through logfiles, tracking down the accounts, deleting them all, and then recreating them with 1500/0. It's a pain in the ass for me.
As for complaining about people who shout things you don't like, etc... My vote is "tough". This particular feature of repbot is heavily abused.
QuoteI seem to have been unclear earlier.
Changes to the FIBS code itself just aren't going to happen. Period. Full stop. I don't have access to the source code.
NO - this was not unclear on any of the million times I heard it - but thoughts are never a bad thing :D It is the general chit chat on the subject of repbot which has brought jonsey to a point where he can now write and implement something which will be agreeable to most (give or take the cabals of course ;) ) Long live the exchange of ideas :D
QuoteAs for complaining about people who shout things you don't like, etc... My vote is "tough". This particular feature of repbot is heavily abused.
I totally agree with this. I don't have to play with anyone who is rude if I don't want to. I just don't accept their invitation. I don't have to listen to someone's rudeness if I don't want to. I gag them. Someone may be rude to someone else and not rude to me. But when someone I don't know invites me to play, I would like to know if they are a dropper because I simply hate investing time in a match that is not completed.
I can't tell you how many times I have helped some who are not droppers to regain a good reputation by vouching for them when I investigated and found there were no saved games, but a group of people had caused the bad rep because of some silly disagreement. The worst of which were the ones who wouldn't vouch for someone who asked them to and threatened if they refused to vouch, to have his friends complain and ruin the rep of the poor individual they were trying to force into submission.
socksey
"We in this country, in this generation, are by destiny rather than choice the watchmen on the walls of world freedom. We ask therefore, that we may be worthy of our power and responsibility, that we may exercise our strength with wisdom and restraint, and that we may achieve in our time and for all time the ancient vision of peace on earth, goodwill toward men." - John F. Kennedy (from a speech that was never delivered, due to his death)
QuoteThe worst of which were the ones who wouldn't vouch for someone who asked them to and threatened if they refused to vouch, to have his friends complain and ruin the rep of the poor individual they were trying to force into submission.
socksey
vry true socksey.... and we all know who they are... so bootom question seems to be : why not taking sanctions against them??... we know them all.... are they intouchables ?
Most of us come to FIBS for love of gammon and are only looking for a good game and some relaxing fun.... :yes:
We do! :P It's called "gag". :D Even the bad eggs add color to Fibs. I wouldn't want to eliminate them. I might like to put them all in a cage and throw tomatoes at them. LOL Just kidding! At the very least, they keep us alert when things get dull. ;)
socksey
"The two most abundant things in the universe are Hydrogen and stupidity." - Harlan Ellison
I started to put together a program a couple of months ago that I was going to call "statbot" that collects all the data that scrolls by on fibs and allows you to ask it questions. Its written in PHP against a mysql backend. All it does right now is log in and echo raw data to the screen.
It has some interesting applications, for instance I would think it could make some pretty good predictions about who is a dropper based on their activity on fibs. For instance, a person who repeatedly leaves matches when losing, but never when winning is most likely a dropper.
Just off the top of my head, I envision the output for the basic query "ask username" might be something like this:
"tell statbot ask dropper"
Stats for dropper:
---------------------------------------
Member since: 1-01-01
Rating: 1650.68
Experience: 1000
30 day Rating change : +150.68
Matches played: 25
Wins: 10
Losses: 0
Drops while winning: 0
Drops while losing: 15
1pt match drops: 0
Saved games: 15
Opponent's comments 12% positive, 88% negative
Most recent completed game against: NIHolympic
Most recent dropped game against: bonehead
Previous opponents logged in right now: gammboy, burper, NIHolympic, Honeygirl
------------------------------------------------------
I think a repbot-like component could be added to collect opponent comments. It would allow a single comment from each player for each match played. The comment can either be positive or negative, a neutral comment is recorded if the opponent opts not to leave a comment. Statbot could be set to automatically use "tell" to prompt the players to enter comments upon the completion of each match. Output might be like so:
"tell statbot ask dropper comments"
Comments for dropper
------------------------------------
25 comments on file, 0% positive, 60% negative, 40% neutral
(+)(W) gammboy: "He played a good match, I lost (fibs dice suck)"
(-)(D) burper: "I was about to backgammon him for the match and he dropped"
etc
etc
etc
--------------------------------------
Since this is all against a mysql database, it would be trivial to set up a php web page to display stats, graphs, etc.
I haven't done any analysis on storage requirements, query speed or anything. This would collect a respectable amount of data, and after a while would have to be pruned.
Anyway, just brainstorming. Comments welcome, flames > /dev/null
GB
"Experience is what you get when you didn't get what you expected." - unknown
Quote
Matches played: 25
Wins: 10
Losses: 0
Drops while winning: 0
Drops while losing: 15
1pt match drops: 0
Saved games: 15
I like statistics. And I really like statistics arising automatically.
But how do you detect "drops while losing"? If you have a board state it's quite easy with gnubg - but how do you get the board?
Regards, Chris
Quote
But how do you detect "drops while losing"?
Just thinking about it, we can really only do that for match play, and by games won/lost. For instance, we know when a 5 game match is started, and when each game is completed. So if a player that is down 3/1 drops he gets a "dropped while losing". If he later resumes, it would be updated. Now that player could well hold the 16 cube and be about to backgammon his opponent when he drops, and so he would actually be winning and still get a dropped while losing point. I would think that would be the exception rather than the rule, and a resumed/completed match would update the stats anyway.
One thing that is crystal clear is that no modifications to the fibs server code will ever happen. So, we have to accept the compromises that come with that and work within the framework that is in place today. This was the best way I could think of to give some data for detecting droppers. Perfect? No. But probably more reliable, and definately less of a pain than repbot.
If I could change the fibs code, I would make a change that would deal permanently with the dropper situation: If you have a saved game that YOU dropped with someone that is currently online, you cannot start a new game with someone else until you resume or the dropped opponent refuses your invite.
GB
"There's no place like /home"
Quote
For instance, we know when a 5 game match is started, and when each game is completed.
Hm, perhaps I'm missing something, but as far as I know fibs only tells you about starting and ending matches, not about starting and ending games ... How would you get this information?
Yup, you're right. Fibs only tells us about match status. Rats. Oh well, theres one idea shot down. I obviously need to spend more time studying the CLIPs reference.
GB
Keep thinking though, Gammboy. Brainstorming is always useful.
jonesyjt
QuoteWe do! :P It's called "gag". :D Even the bad eggs add color to Fibs. I wouldn't want to eliminate them. I might like to put them all in a cage and throw tomatoes at them. LOL Just kidding! At the very least, they keep us alert when things get dull. ;)
socksey
"The two most abundant things in the universe are Hydrogen and stupidity." - Harlan Ellison
:D lol
Great to put these ideas forth before implementing. Many ideas from many are almost always superior to ideas from only one. ;) Just don't ever send your ideas to a committee! :lol:
socksey
"Life may have no meaning. Or even worse, it may have a meaning of which I disapprove." - Ashleigh Brilliant
QuoteMany ideas from many are almost always superior to ideas from only one.
Well said. My loose idea here is to collect every bit of data FIBS will cough up, and provide a query engine for people (and other programs) to do their own research.
Right now, the working model is two bots, watchdog and statbot. watchdog just watches and parses the incoming data into database tables. Statbot will be the interactive component that will query the database for information and present it to the user.
Statbot would have built in queries like "ask username" and such to display most common stats for the user, but I'm thinking about allowing the user to enter complex queries using SQL.
So, if you ever wondered:
...how many IPs has resh_lakish logged in from?
...how many users have logged in from 123.123.123.123?
...who were those users and what date/time did they log in?
...how many times had donzaemon used the "N" word in shouts?
...who has played and won against fungie?
...has zyxtcba ever said anything to calm the situation?
...who has gammboy won against this year (2 hits found)
The list is almost endless.....
Based on my estimates last night, I collect less than 150,000 bytes of data per hour, which equates to about 1.3G of data per year. So a 40G drive would hold in excess of 30 years of history.
Any thoughts or comments welcome, flames > /dev/null
GB
Socksey @ Feb 18 2005, 01:22 PM
QuoteJust don't ever send your ideas to a committee!
Committees...
They keep minutes, but loose hours.
Very cool idea Gammboy, but won't that scare users away?
Kinda like "big brother is watching you?"
QuoteVery cool idea Gammboy, but won't that scare users away?
Kinda like "big brother is watching you?"
enough decent people are scared away by the bullies as it is now.... :(
QuoteKinda like "big brother is watching you?"
That was my first thought, although, I really did enjoy being able to retrieve shouts by date and time when that option was available.
socksey
"Injustice anywhere is a threat to justice everywhere." - Dr. Martin Luther King Jr.
QuoteVery cool idea Gammboy, but won't that scare users away?
Kinda like "big brother is watching you?"
Interesting question. Maybe it would. The last thing I would want to do is discourage membership and participation in Fibs. On the other hand, which users would care if "Big Brother" were watching their Fibs activities? Probably only those who were up to something, or had something to hide.
But if the consensus is "bad idea", especially if Patti were to weigh in, that would be the end of it. I would have thought this would be an enhancement, though.
GB