FIBS Board backgammon forum

I see in the rules for the World Cup, that "Every month the HIGHEST SCORER [in the Bagolympic tournaments] form (sic) EACH COUNTRY will be offered selection into their national TEAM!" In July, the highest scorer for the USA was NIHolympic with 7 points. However, the player 'offered selection' by the tournament organisers was boardking.
Now it appears, please correct me if I am wrong, that the organisers have decided to disregard their own published rules for this event. It appears that on grounds of their own choosing, they can actually invite anybody that they like, or more specifically, decline to invite anybody that they don't like.
Would the organisers, unnamed individuals at present, but believed to be EddieVedd and tryout, care to explain their actions? They may have a very good reason for acting as they do, but it would be nice to be told. Open and fair administration is the least that we should expect from an event that aspires to be a World Cup.

Yes, I too would love to hear the explanation of their actions.  I attempted to have an honest and open discussion with tryout about this situation, without any abuse or negativity.  Tryout appeared to be fed up with NIHI for some reason, and made several statements that I couldn't quite understand.   His first 2 reasons he listed were (in his own words):

"1. His nickname and his misfitted rating.
2. I have no intention at all to offer any service of mine to such a person."

When I pressed tryout on what he meant by this, he stated that (and I'm paraphrasing now) that nobody in the World Cup or Olympics likes playing NIHI because of his behavior.  When I told tryout I thought this was incorrect, and that most people on FIBS love playing one of the best players on the site, he simply scoffed and told me I was wrong.  

I am guessing here, but it would appear that since there are apparent hostilities involved between player and TD, the TD is now seemingly able to 'edit' his list of qualifyers even though he LET THE PERSON PLAY THE QUALIFYING TOURNAMENT to begin with.  Add to that fact that neither tryout nor EddieVedd have personally told NIHI that they threw him out of the tournament, and that he had to learn this information secondhand, and you can see what a shambles the TDs have made to what could have been an extremely fun event.  

I have to ask EddieVedd (knowing that he is usually level-headed and fair) to rethink the actions and overrule tryout and let NIHI back into the World Cup.  If the two TDs cannot guarantee NIHI a place on the final team, then I will have to withdraw from the team as well.  If the Euros are looking to severely handicap the US team because of some personal issues between TD and player, then I have to say I'm extremely disappointed in their choice of action.

Sincerely,

Biggles

Actually.. i would like to play him. But he only wants to play for money or unlimited matches. Looks like Fibs rating means more to him then money.. and i like keeping the stakes high :)

So if you play him under NIHOlympic, aren't you playing HIM?

Looks like rating is more important to YOU, than anything else.  And I would assume money would be a lot more high stakes than anything else, so I'm not sure what you're blabbering about.

Again, can we get a post from tryout or EddieVedd here to get an official position on what the heck is going on?

Waiting...............





Biggles

Well nothing from tryout or EddieVedd, so let's move on. What should be done to avoid this sort of situation in the future? Let's first ask ourselves the question, "Is it desirable to exclude people who's manners are offensive to other players and the organisers?" Fibsleague in its mission statement enjoins players to be courteous and respectful. We might also assume, although it doesn't say so, that a major purpose of the World Cup is to promote an international spirit of friendship, so the principles of fibsleague should apply there too one feels. Perhaps the organisers should insert a paragraph to this effect and make it clear that unfriendly, discourteous and disrespectful language, whether in tells, fibs shouts or on fibs board will constitute grounds for removal from current tournaments and disbarment from future participation. Players do like to play in these events, so this sanction might lead to a desirable improvement in the general standard of verbal exchanges on fibs. This sanction is of course open to abuse, or the allegation of the same, so I would suggest using the fibs board voting mechanism to assemble an appeal panel of (say) three fibsters to provide an avenue of redress for banned players who felt unfairly treated.
If we had had this in place, the organisers would have been able to rule NIHILIST, under any pseudonick, persona non grata, merely on the prima facie evidence of his astonishing rudeness during the "try_fascism_out" exchanges. I doubt if he would have appealed, but had he done so and lost, he could have had no grounds for complaint.
I personally would welcome the introduction of this sort of mechanism. The removal of the tiny fraction of fibsters who indulge themselves in abuse of others can only be to the benefit of fibs as a whole. Doing this at the whim of individuals, whether justified or not, isn't fair and defeats the object.

God, now not only are we going to have power hungry TDs that everyone has to treat with kid gloves, but now you're proposing a judging committee?  

Friends, FIBS has lasted this long without all the power/administration games and has been successful with free form anarchy, which will survive long after you're all gone.  Either get a tougher skin, or go to a pay backgammon site.  You'd think some of the people here (you know who you are) are 5 year olds......instead of running to mommy, they run to ban, exclude and judge others.


Wake up and smell the coffee.......run the freekin World Cup with the right players and get on with it, and stop all yer whining.



Bigg

P.S. - You know how all the TDs always say, if you don't like the TD, don't play their tournament?  Well, the same should be true for FIBS....if you don't like the shouts, go elsewhere, gag the person, or ignore them.  Pretty simple really, if you think about it.  

No Biggles, I proposed an appeals committee, designed to control the power hungry TDs who you feel might abuse their powers. After all, we are not talking about someone calling somebody else a silly fat tart, we are talking about somebody, in the case of NIHI, who asked tryout in a post if he intended to ban "jews, gypsies and other non-aryans" from his next tournament. If this doesn't constitute grave offence and sufficient cause to remove somebody from an international tournament, particularly one run by the offending party, I don't know what does. Perhaps you disagree. I think that most people would feel that to be gravely out of order.
NIHI's remarks(s) to and about tryout were not remarks made in the heat of the moment in shouts. They occurred in a letter that he composed and edited himself. He has not seen fit to withdraw them or express any regret. My purpose in starting this thread was not to defend him or his views, but to set up a proper way of dealing with them. What is wrong with that?

I haven't seen the letter, so can't comment really on the context of an individual phrase....

However, knowing NIHI as well as I do, what I'm guessing he's trying to do it force the issue of banning one person, and not being able to ban others who make the same kinds of statements.  This is exactly why your idea will never work, nor any other mechanism.  What offends one person, might not offend another and so it goes.   No committee, TD, or any other person is going to change the behavior or statements of certain individuals, and I say, why would you ever want to?  People have called me more ridiculous, insane, dirty, homosexual, and foul-mouthed things than I'd ever want to repeat here.   So what?  They simply make a joke of themselves, and I choose to either play their game or ignore them.  Would I want some batch of FIBS guards or police to protect me?  Come on, man........I can do that by myself........Would I want them kept out of tournaments because of it?  No, I'll do all my talking on the backgammon board.

NIHI has always stated what the improve-FIBS crowd would do, if they ever got full access to hack away at the FIBS application code.  I think tryout and other TDs are fully demonstrating what would happen in a nutshell.  Chaos, power struggles, pride, censorship, confusion and not being able to universally carry out the same rules for different factions or groups of individuals.

Thank god Patti has never taken this approach.  You'd all be wise to follow her model.


Bigg

QuoteI choose to either play their game or ignore them

Yup thats what I do - ignore - which includes not devoting 2-3 hours of my time on a regular basis running a tourney, and then some reporting their acheivements, for their benefit.

QuoteThank god Patti has never taken this approach. You'd all be wise to follow her model.

Yup - agreed - wise lady - you annoy her  directly, she will ban you without a backward look - and a whole country if that is what it takes to get the individual concerned.

And by 'letter' dorbel refers to this post (http://www.fibsboard.com/index.php?showtopic=496&view=findpost&p=3957) I think

I've annoyed Patti plenty in the years I've been on FIBS and I'll have to say it takes quite a bit of 'annoyance' to make Patti flip the switch on someone.  It took her the better part of 3 years to do something about don, and the country situation you are referring to had nothing to do with being annoyed with things someone was saying on shouts.

For the most part, you can say that Patti has had an extremely laissez faire attitude towards administering bans on people for things they've shouted.  Droppers, cheaters, and people who do nothing but harrass others over long periods of time, yes.  Again, the model is sound.......and again, tryout and EddieVedd would do themselves a favor by following it.  

Funny that neither of them has chimed in yet.


Bigg  

I am not arguing in favour of censoring shouts or banning individuals from fibs. What I do think is that those individuals who devote part of the time to create something of benefit to us all, such as fibsleague, World Cup or mini tournaments, should have some say as to who plays in them. If they exercised their powers frivolously, the appeals committee would be there to correct them. As the most popular fibster, Biggles would of course be a shoo-in to be on the board anyway. Perhaps new improved fibs would be an environment uncongenial to Biggles and he would have to take his own advice and play elsewhere! Would be fibs be the poorer without NIHI, Bigs, zyx, Zorba, to name four players at random? Actually yes it probably would, but should people running voluntary tournaments, such as Tomawaky, tryout, EddieVedd be obliged to include people who offer them deeply personal abuse? Clearly not. However I do agree with Biggles on one point. NIHI should not be singled out and arbitrarily banned from a tournament for which he has qualified, without notice or form of redress. You will see that these are precisely the things that I am arguing for.

Personnaly what I always asked to a player entering my league or a tourney I ran, is to be fair, have fun, respect his opponent and the spirit of the backgammon game :LOL2: .
I don't care about shout :furios: to accept or not somenone in my tournaments.
Some players prefer only to play, others only use Fibs to shout and some others like to use both. But when you enter a tourney, the better thing to do is playing  :D .

For the World Cup, I have nothing to say and would always accept the rules which will have been laid down, cause if I did not do it I do not see why I would interest myself there.
We all must respect the decisions made by the tourney manager :ohmaster: or just leave it if not agree :cry2: .
No need to go further :stupid3:

So I hope that Eddie and Tryout, who are the persons in charge of this event, will add some precisions if needed to make things clearer.  :help:  

Hello All :)

MMMMM... You've been busy ! I literally still have sand in my toes, returning from a spur of the moment surf trip, with my Brother ! We had clear warm water and 6ft barrels for 3 days solid !!  :D  I was happy to have made it back before the end of August let alone before Friday 3's !!!! :)
:)  So I'll go and play that now, read all this properly, and give my 2 bits  tomorrow.

All is well for the Tourney and i'm looking forward to it beginning :)

Take Care !

Eddie.

Doesn't matter Eddie.  Tryout (in a long discourse on shouts) has stated he's not changing his mind.

So......

From this point on, I'm also dropping out of World Cup.  I'm sure boardking will be along to take the same action.

Thanks for your (mock) concern.

See ya - -


Biggles

Hi dorbel,

For starters some general information. BagOlympics and FIBS World Cup are 2 completely independent tournament events. They are even run by different people. Their _only_ connection is that BagOlympics serves as the qualification round for World Cup.

QuoteI see in the rules for the World Cup,
that "Every month the HIGHEST SCORER [in the Bagolympic tournaments] form
(sic) EACH COUNTRY will be offered selection into their national TEAM!"

Thank you for proof-reading. The other FLG pages could certainly use some as
well. Please feel free to send in the corrected and preferably polished
versions of the HTML pages. ;)

QuoteIn July, the highest scorer for the USA
was NIHolympic with 7 points.

Incorrect, the 2nd highest. But enough for qualifying.

QuoteHowever, the player 'offered selection'
by the tournament organisers was boardking.

Correct.

QuoteNow it appears, please correct me if I
am wrong, that the organisers have decided to disregard their own published
rules for this event.

OK, wrong, see below.

QuoteIt appears that on grounds of their own
choosing, they can actually invite anybody that they like,

Absolutely incorrect.

Quoteor more specifically, decline to invite
anybody that they don't like.

Oops, this doesn't fit much to the first part of the sentence. However, in
theory correct. We could.

QuoteWould the organisers, unnamed
individuals at present,

What's this empty rhetoric for? Calling for a sarcastic reply and setting
the tone?

Quotebut believed to be EddieVedd and
tryout,

Oh, you got it already. Was it so hard to read the names under the contact
section?

Quotecare to explain their actions? They may
have a very good reason for acting as they do, but it would be nice to be
told.

Firstly, the rating of NIHolympic is still miles away from the other nick of the same person. Since tournament matches are forced in the sense that you can't choose your opponent, and they are played on FIBS, which has a rating system, this is unfair to all opponents.

And secondly, after his insults and derogatory remarks about the value of me and the FIBS tournaments I don't see any reason why I should allow him to take advantage of my work.

For reference and further explanation please read the following:
http://www.fibsboard.com/index.php?showtop...findpost&p=3957 (http://www.fibsboard.com/index.php?showtopic=496&view=findpost&p=3957)
http://www.fibsboard.com/index.php?showtop...findpost&p=4004 (http://www.fibsboard.com/index.php?showtopic=496&view=findpost&p=4004)

In order to get back at disregarding own rules or not: The published rules are the necessary requirements that need at least be fulfilled by any player for playing in World Cup. They do not constitute any right to be allowed to play. Please check a lawyer or a dictionary for the difference.

QuoteOpen and fair administration is the
least that we should expect from an event that aspires to be a World
Cup.

The very least a voluntary tournament organizer should expect is the same respect that everybody else expects to get. This definitely does not include insults or other very disparaging statements. (Btw, this is of course not directed at you.)

It's also incredibly easy to demand what not. There's absolutely nothing to demand! We all do this entirely for free, voluntarily. There's no single benefit for us other than the occasional thank you and the thought to have done a good deed.

But naturally, we are open to well meant, constructive suggestions. However, we still reserve to have our own opinion.

Hi again dorbel,

QuotePerhaps the organisers should insert a paragraph to this effect and make it clear that unfriendly, discourteous and disrespectful language, whether in tells, fibs shouts or on fibs board will constitute grounds for removal from current tournaments and disbarment from future participation.

Yes, worth thinking about. However, I really thought and still hope that respectful behaviour goes without saying and doesn't require special mention. On the Team league page I have the sentence "Have fun and be fair and courteous!". We just missed to add it to the World Cup page.

QuoteThis sanction is of course open to abuse, or the allegation of the same, so I would suggest using the fibs board voting mechanism to assemble an appeal panel of (say) three fibsters to provide an avenue of redress for banned players who felt unfairly treated.

I appreciate your motivation, but completely disagree. The only viable solution is to leave the responsibility to the respective organizer(s). If you or somebody else doesn't like a decision of a TD, just avoid her/him then if you think it's appropriate.

Of course exactly the expected stuff from B2, neverending BS.  :wacko:

QuoteHis first 2 reasons he listed were (in his own words):

"1. His nickname and his misfitted rating.
2. I have no intention at all to offer any service of mine to such a person."

Is it actually legal in the US to make a private conversation, like a phone call or a FIBS chat, public without asking for consent?

QuoteWhen I pressed tryout on what he meant by this, he stated that (and I'm paraphrasing now) that nobody in the World Cup or Olympics likes playing NIHI because of his behavior.

You should NEVER paraphrase when you are incapable of understanding what was said or expressing it the same way!

NOTHING of this sentence is correct or was said by me! B2 actually suggested that a lot of people would like to play NX under whatever nick, to which I responded that they should just go ahead. But I keep wondering why I've heard several times that he's "ready" but not accepting invites.

I guess this constitutes lying, doesn't it? Or is it an extreme case of confusion or bad memory?

Quote...he simply scoffed and told me I was wrong.

B*llsh*t! The next lie. I didn't care to comment that. (Provable, I do have the log.)

Quotethe TD is now seemingly able to 'edit' his list of qualifyers even though he LET THE PERSON PLAY THE QUALIFYING TOURNAMENT to begin with.

Sorry to see you so confused. I'm repeating: BagOlympics and World Cup are seperate and independent events. Only the latter is run by EddieVedd and me.

QuoteI have to ask EddieVedd (knowing that he is usually level-headed and fair) to rethink the actions and overrule tryout and let NIHI back into the World Cup.

:LOOOL:

Your only hopes in life are that your daddy comes running to scold the children who don't want to play your way?! How pathetic!

QuoteIf the two TDs cannot guarantee NIHI a place on the final team, then I will have to withdraw from the team as well.

Your choice. You're welcome to do as you wish.

QuoteIf the Euros are looking to severely handicap the US team

Aaaahhhh, now we're getting to the REAL reason!  ROFL

Tryout does not do himself any credit by the cheap sarcastic tone of his replies. It isn't called for by anything that I have written.
It says here:  Welcome to the FIBS World Cup !
Format
How does it work ?

It is an extension of the current BagOlympic tourneys that are run several times a month on Fibs via Tourneybot.
Every month the HIGHEST SCORER form EACH COUNTRY will be offered selection into their National TEAM !

So we can see that there is a connection between the two events, The World Cup is an extension of the Bagolympics, it says so. It also says, with unambiguous clarity that the highest scorer will be offered selection. This rule has been disregarded and the reason for setting it aside is not relevant to the argument. Tryout has refused to select somebody that he didn't like and selected somebody that he did like. This isn't a matter of opinion, it's clear fact.
Everybody is entitled to equal and fair treatment, that's a basic principle in any area of life. It is a fair question to ask tryout why he thinks that it shouldn't apply to fibs tournaments.

I've chosen to sit back and let it take its course, but at this point think I, and the others who have raised the issue, are entitled to some simple answers to simple questions.

First, I entered the BAGO under a nick that was accepted by the TD without even the slightest comment.

Second, in every one of my matches I behaved with complete courtesy to my opponent. Truth is, and you can probably verify this with anyone who has ever played me, I rarely, if ever, chat during play.

Third, I got involved in a trade of insults with Diane COMPLETELY OUTSIDE of any tourney environment.

Fourth, no one has EVER directly told me I'm banned from BAGO and for what reason.

So, at this point, I think I'm within my rights to ask, and fair play requires, that a BAGO official answer the following questions:

ONE...Am I , in fact, banned from further play in BAGO ?

TWO...If so, what infraction of BAGO rules led to my banning ?

THREE...Why has no one had the common courtesy to tell me DIRECTLY of my banning ?

FOUR...Is it the current policy of TDs to allow any ad hominem action or conversation occurring OUTSIDE OF AN ACTUAL TOURNEY to impact a player's current or future tourney eligibility ?

I think that the TDs have done a fine job in creating something that energizes the FIBS environment. At the same time I am seeing arbitrary and capricious behavior detract from that accomplishment.

I than you in advance for responding to my questions.



NIHI

BagOlympics, as directed by Tomawaky, is a tourney in which players from each country play each other  - and score points.  The average points for the country are calculated - and the best scoring country wins. That is bago - as organised by Tomawaky. Nihi - you played - as do many others, in that - and did your country proud :D   (but no longer in the sessions I run, in case we arent clear on that ) The world cup is an extension of, but separate from the above. That you will not play in - because - as we all know, along the line you have tried very hard to annoy the organisers. You were successful in your quest - and lo - they dont want to arrange an event for you - or report your results - or do anything else for your benefit - you surprised?  Thought not.

So you play for america and raise the average for your country in Bago - but not in the 'invite only' world cup tournament.

You getting it yet??

And i have worked long and hard to be capricious - glad it is finally paying off   ;)

I'm not sure in what context you've responded, since most of the discourse has been between Biggles, Dorbel and Tryout. If you have responded as the TD for BAGO and the Cup, then so be it, If not, I would still appreciate someone in an official capacity to address the issues.


NIHI

QuoteIf you have responded as the TD for BAGO and the Cup,

Try to keep up - these are separate issues and separate events  :P  

And it's still unclear whether you speak as any kind of official for EITHER of them. If you are, why not try answering the 4 simple questions I raised ?


NIHI

Well that's it I'm done ! I could write a thesis on what has been posted and suggested and asked here, but i just can't be bothered. I wont waste another heartbeat on explaining why Nihilist has worn out his welcome. How his rudeness directly affects the lives of well meaning individuals who are then somehow called "power hungry". Yawn. Finished. Congrats , your continued kicks in the gut have prevailed.

I apologise to the dozens of friendly fibsters whom i have spoken with personally over the last 2 months about the World Cup. I'm sorry for giving in so early, but i can't stomach the thought of the constant whining, shouts & posts that will occur when we continue to refuse Nihilist entry. Which we will do. I have now been told I'm anti-american by a once friend on fibs ! A-farki'n Mazing !!

I got off my tail and tried to develop a fun global tourney that was fair for all countries. Others had thought and talked about it before, but I did something about it and got it underway. I recieved enourmous help from tryout, tomawaky and diane for which i thank them and would like to apologise to also. We tried.

Biggles - Nihilist, What have you done ?? What do you do ?? Well here's your chance. If you dont like the way it's being run i offer you control of The Fibs World Cup. The set up work has been done, you can change what you like. I offer you use of the rules page and if the 30 odd people who've given me their e-mail addresses dont mind i will give you the list of all who have qualified so far and their contact details.

What do you think everyone , will either of them do it ? Or will their preference for insult over altruistic effort prevail here also.

Thanks dorbel for trying to be constructive. I'm sorry to you for not devoting more time to your, at times, constructive comments.

For anyone who's lost go here (http://www.fibsboard.com/index.php?showtopic=496&st=0) to read the relevant history to this story. From that thread i'll leave you with a couple of quotes from the individual who had been denied entry from another tournament on fibs.

NIHILIST Posted: Jul 22 2004, 11:29 PM  

QuoteI have no problem with a TD setting rules that disallow different nicks. I'm a big boy, I know I can play as NIHI or not at all. I chose not at all.

NIHILIST Posted: Jul 21 2004, 11:43 PM

QuoteGet over it, people. The team whose name is the worst insult possible will never play a match. And the members of the team really don't much give a crap.

I'm off to have my third child with my American wife now so will continue to be busy for a few days. I will look eagerly for your response when i return and then contact all participants as necessary.

Take Care,

Eddie.

I will be glad to accept your offer to hold it. Let me know when it's convenient for you to arrange the transfer.


NIHI

Let me add that any qualifiers to date need not worry about being banned, nor will there be any banning of those who behave outrageously OUTSIDE the tourney environment.

If you have qualified and wish to continue, you are welcome to play too. As is Tryout, kari or anyone else. If it's a backgammon tourney, let's keep it as such without looking for reasons to deny play to those we have personal disagreements with.


NIHI

PS I doubt having made the offer, that you'll actually make good on it.

Incidentally, the link Eddie asks you to click is a thread regarding an entirely different matter. Nowhere in there is a reference to the issue of this thread which is about BAGO and World Cup.

The TDs refused to show any honesty or candor regarding BAGO and now appear to be taking their bats and gloves and going home. Good riddance.

I am thrilled to take over BAGO and World Cup; I am willing to put up prize money for the eventual winning team if the particiants think it's a good idea.

NIHI

Quotei offer you control of The Fibs World Cup. The set up work has been done, you can change what you like. I offer you use of the rules page and if the 30 odd people who've given me their e-mail addresses dont mind i will give you the list of all who have qualified so far and their contact details.

The offer was for Fibs World Cup, NIHI, not for Bago.  Gracious acceptance!  Good luck to you!

socksey




The Only thing Necessary for the Triumph of Evil is for Good Men to Do Nothing - Edmund Burke

Yes, I stand corrected. I'm looking forward to having a great tourney.


NIHI

<<Well that's it I'm done ! I could write a thesis on what has been posted and suggested and asked here, but i just can't be bothered.>>

Hi Eddie,
Firstly, I'd like to thank you for implementing what I think is a great idea. Having World Cup Teams competing through Fibs tournaments is a way to bring a little more excitement to the Fibs community. Qualifying for this tourney, somewhat ensures that the participants will be playing against the 'best of the best' for their respective countries. I'm sure that this is what you had in mind.

One could hardly blame you for being bothered. It sometimes takes a thick skin to deal with the Fibs community. I'm also sorry that you got caught up in the 'fibs politics'. I was hoping this World Cup Tourney could be accomplished with just the thought of 'World Championship' backgammon in mind. Maybe it still can. Anyway, thanks again and congrats on your new family member.

I'd also like to thank Bob(NIHI) for accepting the task of running the 'World Cup'. I'm fairly sure this won't be an easy job, but knowing Bob through Fibs, I'm certain he will do a good job with this. I think the object is to get as much participation from other countries as possible and to try and assure an 'impartial' good time to all participants. For starters, I'd like to see a definitive rules page that shows fairness to all. You can't just make up the rules as you go, which is why this whole thread started. Secondly, I'd like to see the qualifying tournaments for the 'World Cup' held in a more impartial atmosphere. The bagolympics isn't quite getting the job done. The August schedule for bagolympics was already set, then changed. It now seems that under the current schedule, anyone from the United States would have to be here Tuesday afternoon or get up well before the sun rises on Sunday mornings. Do you call that fair? Bagolympics doesn't have to be the qualifying tournament format for the 'World Cup'. Bagolympics has succumbed to 'fibs politics', so why bother. Qualifying tourneys can now be held with tourneybot and posted on fibsboard, without the bias. I'll hopefully, be looking forward to the continuation of the World Cup, and to trying to qualify for it.

Regards,   Mort

NIHILIST, if you are really taking up the management  of this tournament i will applaude you. Finally you put your money where your mouth is. :thumbsup2:
I am really surprised you are going to contribute to the community after all! :eeeek:


(or did it not occur to you that that is what you will be doing?)

I have to say though that i really regret EddieVedd stepping out like this.
Eddie, i advice you to ignore people who are nagging you. Just let them be.
Don't let this get to you, you are a great asset to Fibs and Fibsboard and i hope we  will see a lot more of you!
:cool:  

Congratulations on your new family member. Might we see pictures?
:rolleyes:  

Hi All,  :)

I have fought myself for days now, and refrained from commenting on the issues that have threatened the World Cup from coming to fruition. But no longer. And though I am pleased to see that it appears the issues are being resolved, I am extremely displeased with the route that has taken us here.

First of all, I applaud you EddieVedd! :yes:  You should be proud, very proud. Your contributions to FIBS make it a fun and rewarding place to visit. I am sure that I speak for ALL of FIBS when I say you make it an enjoyable experience, whether  to log in, to play, to enter a tourney, or just to chat. I cannot imagine what the FIBS community would be like without the likes of you, or tomawaky, tryout, or diane or others who dedicate their time and efforts to make FIBS fun.

What seems to be at issue here is appreciation. ...or lack of it. You don't want your efforts to go unnoticed, or without gratitude. Understood. But trust me, EVERYONE, (including the ones you refer to as rude), appreciates your efforts! Their very participation into your tourneys is proof of that in and of itself. Some people just have a difficult time showing it. And although your efforts to shelter the FIBS community from a possible encounter with these 'rude' individuals (by not allowing them to compete in the World Cup) may seem noble, it would definately take away from the true meaning of World Cup. Especially banning a highly rated player. What makes FIBS fun is the competitive spirit, above all. Being treated civil is definitely a plus, but secondary to the desire to compete.

I would love to see you stay on as Director of World Cup, especially since you have spent endless hours in preparation, but must respect your decision to resign. In doing so, I trust you will give NIHo access to your work, so that he may continue on your fine efforts. And NIHo, I sincerely hope you WILL do as you say and take over, so that we may look forward to a World Cup.

I hope that people have noticed that I have taken no cheap shots at anyone, insulted no one, and hopefully gotten my point across. There is no law that says we must all agree, but there is an unwritten law demanding we must respect one another's views. I trust the transition of World Cup Director will be as respectful.

Sincerely,
boardking

LET'S HAVE A WORLD CUP TOURNEY!!!!!

Since this seems to be a popular competition (in theory), why not come up with a sound set of rules that could be implemented in TourneyBot as a tourney of its own type (like Fridays3?)

This is something I wouldn't mind coding if you could agree on the rules. I always wondered why more people don't come up with inventine tourney formats of their own.

Remember though that the model behind it needs to be sound, by which I mean it has to be general enough to be implemented in a way to allow the bot to pretty much handle everything itself, without human interference. Too many exceptions needing to be handled by the TDs would make for a poor tourney.

QuoteI'm off to have my third child with my American wife now so will continue to be busy for a few days.

No wonder you're anti-American! :P  

NIHI,

First, thank you for picking up the torch.

Given that bago serves as the qualifying tournament for your world cup tournament, as a fellow American I would like to hear what your opinion is on what should be done regarding the timezone issue. I define this as the the bias towards convenient European playing times and away from convenient playing times for Americans.

Unlike some, I don't believe this was done intentionally. Call me naive, but I prefer to give people the benefit of the doubt. Anyway, I believe what happened, was that there were many more European TD's willing to host tournaments, and a uniform time to hold them was desired to reduce confusion. It was also thought that providing 2 time slots that were as far as possible apart on the clock would be the most inclusive, with a 12 hour difference as theorectically ideal.

In any case, I was wondering if you could drum up support for a couple of American TD's to help me add a Bago timeslot that was convenient for American timezones. I would give up the early Sunday morning time slot I do now as a start. 3 more people willing to commit would be ideal. Maybe you could be one? It would be once a month. If so, please suggest a time. dorbel? Biggles? HG?

As far as a bago tournament type, that's a great idea MadMatt! TBot already has had this for a couple of weeks. If you want the code changes, let me know. I took a quick and dirty approach, merely setting the particular bracket tournament type parameters, rather than extending the bracket type or using some sort of templating system, but it works. I also have some scheduling code that would help make TD'ing easier. I also have implemented silent bans (a long time ago). I also have intentions or adding some sort of 'attribute' system to support declaring countries, maybe as some sort of player profile, to make that part of it easier. Some day I hope to make point accumulation configurable, so that fridays3, saturday minis and others of it's kind can derive from the same type.

A big Thank You to Eddie for setting up the first World Cup and to provide a way for it to be held appropriately, without additional politics and chaos.

Also a big thanks goes out to NIHI for taking over the facilitation from Eddie, so that the World Cup can be rescued so that it can be played it the way it was meant to be played from the beginning.  Hopefully the transition can take place without any additional problems.

I am looking forward to the commencement of World Cup.  I am hereby back on the USA team.

Good Luck to all participants.

Bigg

EddieVedd, I'm surprised and sad to learn that you want to step back from World Cup.  :tears:

Please take in mind that all the b*llsh*t only comes from a very small minority. Unfortunately, they are louder than the entire rest of FIBS. But still, as others have mentioned, it's a good thing what we do. So I'd like to ask you to reconsider your decision.

There's a problem though with your offer to NX to take over World Cup. Sorry to have to say this here, but since we run this event together you can't decide this for both of us.  :(  I'll try to contact you personally before writing more in this regard.

I think you're surprised and sad that I called his bluff. It's pretty obvious that your action is designed to take Eddie off the hook and prevent him from looking like a bigger fool than he already is.

You guys decide what you want to do, in the meantime I'll proceed in setting up a tourney based on the World Cup format complete with prize money and NO ENTRY FEE.


NIHI

... meanwhile it's obviously necessary to address some major misunderstandings.

The decision to not let the person playing under the nicks NIHILIST and NIHolympic enter the World Cup was met by EddieVedd and myself in complete agreement.


He was NOT banned because I don't or didn't like him (this allegation is incredibly stupid). He was banned for his very offending statements and insults to one of the organizers (me)!


The incident in question and thus the reasons for the ban (please read here (http://www.fibsboard.com/index.php?showtopic=496&view=findpost&p=3957)) occured during the qualification process for the first World Cup season. When we started this event and made up the rules these facts were not yet known obviously. And we never thought it could be necessary to ban anybody for such rude behaviour.


In order to reiterate, the point is NOT simply nagging or annoying behaviour, bold shouts or a personal dislike. There would be quite some people subject to not playing if this was the standard followed. This is ridiculous. Everybody who tried to play the severeness of the insults down is acting incredibly cheap and should question their own sanity. There was even an absurd mention of FIBS politics!


The point is NEITHER that this is a backgammon tournament and should be looked at nothing but that. Anybody who suggests this must be from another world and feel no value at all for one's dignity. And beyond that I thought Backgammon was a sport for gentlemen (and women) and not just only for the few minutes of the course of a match.


The point IS defending myself from the abuse this person has committed. Who in their right mind can request from me to take these insults silently and offer the very same person to take advantage of my (not so small) efforts???


Does really anybody expect from me that I reward that person and organize an event, create a webpage, send numerous of e-mails, compile results and thus invest a big amount of my time and energy (also) for him???


Also, how can someone require that I'll give away my responsibility and do the slave work for your amusement and leave it to some arbitrary people to defend myself or not and be happy with every decsion they'll happen to meet even if I very personally am concerned???

Because it was mentioned: What a horror vision if every TD had to submit to NIHILIST, biggles and the likes!


So I urge every reasonable person to step forward and tell me directly into my face that I don't have every right in the world to deny a person, who insulted me in this way, my efforts. And give very good reasons!


Then I will reconsider what I'm doing all this for.

Ah, forgot something:

The fair and equal treatment of all players was questioned. You can be assured that I would have and also will ban every other person who insults me in this way!

And again: We're not talking about some petty shout or other annoyance.

QuoteI think you're surprised and sad that I called his bluff. It's pretty obvious that your action is designed to take Eddie off the hook and prevent him from looking like a bigger fool than he already is.

Gosh, the only thing obvious is your utter lack of any decent behaviour.

QuoteYou guys decide what you want to do, in the meantime I'll proceed in setting up a tourney based on the World Cup format complete with prize money and NO ENTRY FEE.

Now that would finally be a hopefully positive thing against your a**hole behaviour. The only thing is that I can't believe it before seeing it with my own eyes.

I think you have every right to do whatever you like with your tourney. The question I have, that you've never addressed, is WHY DID YOU ALLOW ME TO PLAY SEVERAL MATCHES AND QUALIFY FOR WORLD CUP and THEN decide to ban me ?

The actions that so offended you took place LONG BEFORE World Cup was put in place. Exactly when did you decide I had offended you enough that you needed to ban me ?

Truth is, if I had known in advance that it was YOUR tourney, I'd never have entered.


NIHI

QuoteWHY DID YOU ALLOW ME TO PLAY SEVERAL MATCHES AND QUALIFY FOR WORLD CUP and THEN decide to ban me ?

Because BagOlympics is not run by me. It's an independent event, but serves as qualification for World Cup. I could neither allow nor disallow you. You're REALLY SLOW in grasping.

QuoteThe actions that so offended you took place LONG BEFORE World Cup was put in place.

Your post of question dates Jul 20 2004, 02:57 AM. We started World Cup in June or even before. So what's your point?

QuoteTruth is, if I had known in advance that it was YOUR tourney, I'd never have entered.

Aren't you responsible yourself for getting all needed information before?

Look, its a little disingenuous of you to suggest that the right hand ( World Cup ) doesn't know what the left hand ( BAGO ) is doing. The fact is, and you just re-stated it, that BAGO serves as the qualifying vehicle for YOUR tourney.

If you objected to my participation in YOUR tourney, why didn't you let the BAGO TD know ? He could have advised me then and this wouldn't be an issue.

If you objected to my presence in YOUR tourney, why didn't you ban me IMMEDIATELY after I won my eligibility ?

The truth is that your action is a result of an exchange of insults between Diane and me which occurred outside of ANY tourney activity. Why don't you try a bit of honesty and simply admit what everyone else already knows ?

NIHI

The story so far.
(1) tryout tries to ban NIHI from playing in team fibs, on the grounds that he created a new nick especially for the event. There was no rule in place to justify this, nor could there be as many fibsters have two or more nicks. However, as always, a TD may refuse entry to any person without giving cause. Every tournament is in effect invitational.
(2) Eventually he agrees that NIHi can play, but refuses to accept team brb's new team name of try_fascism_out. There followed an entertaining thread in which souptree and NIHI continued to bait tryout, with NIHI reaching new heights of offensiveness when he asked rhetorically whether tryout would next ban jews , gypsies and other non-aryans. The team league proceeds without them
(3) NIHI gains a qualifying score for the World Cup but the organisers ignore their own rules and without notifying NIHI, select another player instead. They have the right to do this (see above) but appear to have handled the matter rather badly. The original rules should have stated clearly that the organisers would only consider inviting the highest scorer in each month. NIHI should have been informed. He is capable of startling rudeness and often makes xenophobic remarks, but he isn't some criminal!
(4) There follows another dramatic thread, initiated by me, at the end of which EddieVedd, without consulting tryout, hands everything over to the person who was so repulsive that he couldnt be allowed to play! Tryout throws a fit, not unreasonably and lashes out in all directions.
So where do we go from here? I still think my idea of an elected panel to which players arbitrarily banned could appeal is reasonable. I think fibs shouts should continue uncensored and for all practical purposes ignored. I think that NIHI should withdraw and offer proper regret for past nazi remarks directed at tryout. Then perhaps everybody might like to draw a deep breath and work together to restore credibility to the world cup and make it what it should be, an axciting international tournament, ideally inclusive of as many people as possible. The original qualification through bagolympic was far too restrictive. Run a proper qualifier.
The whole point of fibs is for players from all countries, all races and all political persuasions to play together, irrespective of their differences. Where NIHI or Biggles are concerned for example, I find myself diametrically opposed to their politics and amazed by their abrasive style of argument, but we play without difficulty. Playing together keeps channels open and allows the possibility of friendly communication in the future. Banning, rudeness and refusing to play with each other does the opposite.
What we need here is a mother. Perhaps Maman Eve should come along and say, "Now I don't care WHO started it............"  

Or Tryout could draw a deep breath, rename his tourney XXXXXXXXXXXXXXX  and restrict entry to all but XXXXXXXXXXXXXXX.

XXXXXXXXXXXXXX

NIHI

comment by administrator: please try to be polite and refrain from these kind of attacks and accusations. This is not Fibs, it is A moderated board.

Breathtaking. Given the opportunity we can always rely on NIHILIST to come up with the goods. He should be a perfect individual to run a friendly international tournament.  

Well, you neglected another obvious course of action; I apologize and Tryout allows me to play in a tourney I already qualified for.

NIHI

Yes i can quite see that repeating the insult and amplifying it would be helpful. I am sure that you will make a great TD, but you could end up playing with yourself you know.

Nihilist. Good to hear you have chosen to become productive. I will write to all those who have qualified and ask that they seek you out as i can not find an e-mail address for you. To date i have contacted all participants via fibs tell or message and asked they send me their address. Perhaps you should do this now given the time constraints. You will need to talk with Tomawaky about accessing html for updates on the web page, or start your own. You will also need to manually carry out the Team section of the tourney as clearly you will not be allowed access to tryout's team league. Alternatively you will come up with your own idea and let all participants know asap I'm sure.  

And you are doing this because....................?

When last heard from you were washing your hands of things and handing World Cup over to me. Your pal Tryout seems to have other ideas.

So what is the purpose of all these actions you have taken ? To what end ? Is World Cup my responsibility or not ?


NIHI

My email is  XXXXXXXXXXXXXXX


NIHI


Comment of admninistrator: please don't post email adresses on the board. You can send someone your email adres by clicking on their name. This is for your own good: email adresses are often harvested from boards like this by spammers .

I can understand that
- Tryout ban Nihilist from his tourney if he had personnal troubles with him (I would maybe do the same if I felt that somebody doesn't respect me)
- Eddie feed up with all those comments and want to give up

But I will be Sorry if Tryout and Eddie let this tourney to other hands cause
- Tryout have done some great job in organizing TEAM tourney
- And Eddie is always powerfull to make things go ahead
So I will Thanks to you both to make things go to this point and hope you will consider both on the future of the Worl Cup. Cause I am sure it will be a great event.

But with experience I know that runnig tourney is not the more difficult and it is all that little stuff by the side which are the most difficult to manage.

And If Nihilist goes on this project I want to wish him best of luck cause he will see that is not always easy to satisfy everybody at the same time and to be open to criticism. But I try, since now even 3 years, and I hope most of you appreciate the work.



Sorry to be not there often this times but I changed house and have lost my Internet connection

QuoteGiven that bago serves as the qualifying tournament for your world cup tournament, as a fellow American I would like to hear what your opinion is on what should be done regarding the timezone issue. I define this as the the bias towards convenient European playing times and away from convenient playing times for Americans.

Unlike some, I don't believe this was done intentionally.

I am glad people realise that - really most of the original slots were no good for me to TD - although I tried. Sorry, but being up until 1 or 2 am on sunday night was a bind for me - even only once a month.
The other major point is that one of the best American players - and clearly they wanted him on their team, is Biggles.  As Biggles tells us, at length, he only plays from work - therefore - for him to be able to compete, the other slot needed to be one he could make.  Tuesdays seemed fine for that.  

I have also pointed out (and it was discussed at length in the other thread) that in order to get the optimum slot for a time zone - you need a TD from that time zone, so hopefully someone will respond to your calls.  :D  

That's right.
No complain if there is more time zone slot.
All we need is enough TDs avaible at this time to make a new slot always avaible during the month with other backup TD to not have session missed cause the TD would not available to connect.

Hard for me to tell that  :rolleyes: cause I missed a lot actually but again thanks to others TDs who backup me :agree:  

I'm trying to figure out where we are in the World Cup.


Let's see, Eddie makes a grandiose statement that he's leaving as Tournament Director and makes a pretty direct challenge for someone to pick up for him in his absence.  He has an attitude of, 'Well take that, and I bet nobody will do it'.

NIHI tells Eddie and tryout that he'll do it.

As far as I'm concerned, NIHI is now a World Cup tourament director and tryout better figure out how to make this work out with him, personal vendettas or not.

As it stands now, under the rules that were posted, NIHI qualified for World Cup, and has also taken over for Eddie as World Cup tournament director.

I'm still hoping that the transistion from Eddie to NIHI is smooth and that we can get on with the World Cup as it was originally laid out.

Can we get a status please?



Bigg

Biggles, NIHILISTs' attempts to resurrect this fine tournament from the ashes of over-emotionalism are not going unnoticed! Perhaps time, further study, and more reflection will either modify or enrich the analysis offered previously, but tryout's words set the intellectual and moral stage for a new wave of jackbooted policies that seek to turn peaceful tournaments into embarrassing scandals.

While I agree with others' assessment that the damage of NIHILISTs' theoretical insults  run deep, still, he has been a veritable oasis of civility in the present debate. I put that observation into this letter just to let you see that it would be wrong to imply that he is involved in some kind of conspiracy to destabilize the already volatile social fabric of this backgammon community.

But tryout will probably respond to this letter just like he responds to all criticism. He will put me down as "effete" or "overbearing". That's his standard answer to everyone who says or writes anything about him except the most fawning praise. Am I angry about losing the World Cup? You bet. If tryout's apothegms get any more contemptuous, I expect they'll grow legs and attack us in our sleep.

There is an implicit assumption here that I don't expect everyone to agree with me. And that's all I have to say.

QuoteBut tryout will probably respond to this letter just like he responds to all criticism. He will put me down as "effete" or "overbearing".

Nope - it is a whole lot harder than that to upset tryout  :D  

I, like Biggles, would like to know where we are with this. So far Eddie has lived up to nothing in his earlier posts. I gave him my email, got nothing. I tried to engage him in conversation in order to move this forward, got nothing.

I am prepared to go forward with the World Cup as originally concepted ( with the handover Eddie offered ) or with no cooperation from Eddie and with modifications of my own.

I just want to know if Eddie is honoring his original offer or reneging altogether.


NIHI

I would like to clarify some comments that have been made recently regarding EddieVedd. What follows is a set of observations I have made about antisocial lunatics like NIHILIST and Biggles. You may make the comment, "What does this have to do with World Cup?" Well, once you begin to see the light, you'll realize that NIHILIST thinks that the sun rises just for him. I would say that that claim is 70% folderol, 20% twaddle, and 10% another invidious attempt to  make power-drunk generalizations to support reckless, preconceived views. All the while NIHILIST's put-downs of Eddie manifest themselves in two phases. Phase one: break down the traditional TD values. Phase two: perpetuate harmful behaviour.

On the other hand, EddieVedd possesses no significant intellectual skills whatsoever and has no interest in erudition. Heck, he can't even spell or define "erudition", much less achieve it.

If I had to choose the most officious specimen from NIHILIST's welter of drugged-out gabble, it would have to be his claim that the rest of the TourneyBot admins are an inferior group of people, fit only to be enslaved, verbally beaten, and butchered at the whim of our supposed betters.

Why is EddieVedd really so appalling to NIHILIST? Is it because the underlying reasons and causes for his combative mottos must be defined, examined, and resolved, or they'll never cease? Or because there is blood on his hands? For crying out loud, once you realize that NIHI's  standard operating procedure is to glorify himself and other self-righteous, bloodthirsty parasites, you will see the true picture.

Many people who follow EddieVedd's posts have come to the erroneous conclusion that tryout's intolerance for those assumed to hold different value systems from his is so great, so mentally debilitating, so handicapping to his thought processes that he is capable of a large array of negative feelings. Don't make the mistake of thinking otherwise. EddieVedd does, and that's why he reads fibs forums that feature the disrespect, degradation, dehumanization, and exploitation of newbies and tourney moderators. It's that simple. As everyone knows, he is a man of questionable moral character. What you might not know, however, is that NIHILIST claims that might makes right.

Quotefrom Zoeboy today While I agree with others' assessment that the damage of NIHILISTs' theoretical insults run deep, still, he has been a veritable oasis of civility in the present debate.

Quote
Zoeboy obviously didn't read the infamous "XXXXXXXXXX" post that Webrunner felt obliged to censor! Civil it weren't!

Thanks, I think that clarifies everything.

NIHI

There are people I indisputably despise. They lack morals, character, and honesty. They shame my name. In case you can't tell, I'm talking about Dorbel here. The first thing I want to bring up is that either Dorbel has no real conception of the sweep of history, or she is merely intent on winning some debating pin by trying to pierce a hole in my logic with "facts" that are taken out of context and conveniently "censored".

I should add parenthetically that I shall not argue that her forum postings are an authentic map of her plan to trivialize certain events that are particularly special to us all. Read them and see for yourself. How on earth these geeks can think of themselves as anything but dysfunctional, passive-aggressive rabble-rousers is beyond me. To sum it all up, Dorbel's avowal that she could do a gentler and fairer job of running the world cup than anyone else is all cant and hogwash.

The Fibs World Cup continues as was originally planned and is nearing the end of the Team Selection stage. Tryout and I remain committed to hosting an enjoyable event for all who care to participate now and in the future. We will take the constructive suggestions made in this thread and modify the WC rules page to reflect these.

Nihilist i hope my red-herring offer has made you consider what it takes to commit to such an altruistic pursuit and i encourage you to start your own tourney at your leisure. Your subsequent posts again confirm to me, OUR decision to deem you not welcome to participate was justified, as have the dozens of supportive e-mails both tryout and i have received, pleading with us to continue. Dorbel's outstanding insight that you might be playing on your own was backed up by 96% of those who wrote to me, saying they would not take part if you were in charge.

Biggles, I assume you revert to your original decision to boycott. Is this correct?

Good luck to all who have qualified and i will post an update on a new thread when the last few confirmations are received, advising teams/tables, start/finish dates and the like :)

Sincerely,

EddieV.

TOP  :D  :D  :D  

I kinda like the part about the DAMAGE FROM MY THEORETICAL INSULTS running deep.


NIHI

QuoteThe Fibs World Cup continues as was originally planned...

GREAT :jump2:  

Just to reiterate......

I'm out of World Cup.  

Also want to reiterate how disappointed I am with EddieVedd.  Hey buddy, when you make grandiose statements about quitting and betting your weekly paycheck that nobody would pick up the pieces after you left, you should be a man and follow through on your big huge threats.  You got caught in your own crud, and now have to label it as a 'red herring'.  That's typical of the TD mentality around FIBS.  Have a nice World Cup running it with a substandard group of 3 below average US players.  It's really what you all wanted in the first place, right?

Sincerely,

Bigg  

QuoteHave a nice World Cup running it with a substandard group of 3 below average US players.

You didn't listen much in maths at school? "Below average" translates to lower than the arithmetic mean of something. Here would either apply the number of participants or the number of points overall accumulated in this month by US players. If the 2nd or even 3rd qualified player enters World Cup it's certainly above average.

"Substandard", also very nice. I guess you took the freedom to define yourself as standard? It looks like there remains the need to define in exactly which regard you see yourself as the standard.

Eddie, all your " red-herring" post did was expose you for the petulant, whining little toad we all knew you to be. You ran a bluff, got it called, and gruppenfuhrer tryout had to come to your rescue.

Enjoy your tourney.


NIHI

Quite some posts have piled up while I was away...

QuoteThe story so far.
(1) ...

It would be nice of you to inform yourself first before trying to post a summary of events. While it could've been worse you are missing quite a few important points. If it's too much of an effort to read the entire Team-brb thread (http://www.fibsboard.com/index.php?showtopic=496) I recommend the summary (http://www.fibsboard.com/index.php?showtopic=496&view=findpost&p=4016) by Eddie.

The only things left to say:

Welcome back, Eddie! :)

I wish all participants and spectators a very pleasant and enjoyable FIBS World Cup!   :jump:

QuoteI'm out of World Cup.  
.......
Have a nice World Cup running it with a substandard group of 3 below average US players.  It's really what you all wanted in the first place, right?

The fact that you don't want to take part is your choice, not ours, isn't it ?

And even if you have a better rating I think other players selected will fight for the best of their country.

All what we all really want in the first place, is just playing backgammon for fun, peacefull and if we can avoid flame it could be perfect.

QuoteThe fact that you don't want to take part is your choice, not ours, isn't it ?

The good words came from our leader. Lets not forget, that this is mainly Tomawakys show and he let us to keep our tourneys in his pages.

Lets stop this thread here and lets play BG!!

QuoteThe only things left to say:

Welcome back, Eddie! :)

I wish all participants and spectators a very pleasant and enjoyable FIBS World Cup!   :jump:

Now that NIHI and Biggles have declared themselves winners and created an excuse for never having to play, I am sure we will! everyone is happy.

Quoteeveryone is happy.

And those who arent  can go play in the tourney nihi is running for that cash prize he is offering - gl to those players  ;)  

Quote... gruppenfuhrer tryout ...

And here he is again...

guess it doesn't need any further comment