FLG Ranking vs unplayed Matchs

[Tomawaky]

Hello fibsters

I had a chat with Iceborg and we discussed about ranking, unplayed match, points reward etc....
Actually the rules are describe Below :

Players receive 3 points for a win, 1 point for a loss. They will be ranked according to :
1) Total Score.
2) More Wins, if same score.
3) Direct Match against each other, if same number of wins
4) Accumulated score of defeated players (for each player, sum the scores of the players he won against), if among three or more players, direct matches equal out (e.g. 1-1, or 2-2,...).
5) Direct Match of best 2-ply scores-players, if same accumulated score.
6) And then Tournament director will decide what to do ;-)) if direct Matches again equal out...

But it's maybe not the best way to do and if we found a better way, Why not change ?

The biggest trouble in there is for players who don't play all of their matches.
Because they can't or because they do not try. No matter.
If we can find a better solution that is better for most of you I would be agree to change rules.

I hope that we could discuss on this subject in this Topic in a constructive way.
And the result could be a final poll to decide what to do.

here is the chat with Iceborg that we start today :

Iceborg says: hi there, any information about the semis of the league?
Tomawaky: hi
Tomawaky: you're not in !
Tomawaky: Why ?
Iceborg: who is in?
Tomawaky: for me i have in mastera serafin and zyxtchba
Iceborg: serafin is clear but why zyxtchba?
Tomawaky: more point
Tomawaky: he played all of his games
Iceborg: sure but imho mano me and zyxtcba are equal
Iceborg: i invited tryout several times for our game but :-(
Tomawaky: I know
Tomawaky: but I did not find better rules
Iceborg: I do not if I could make it cause when woul b 1-1 everyone
Tomawaky: hard to do better
Iceborg: i thought there are rules about that the points of the beaten players
Tomawaky: teh best way it's to try to arrange match
Tomawaky: and if you can't advise me
Iceborg: sure but if i knew i would fofeit
Tomawaky: k yes
Tomawaky: but that is not the point
Tomawaky: the best thing is to play
Tomawaky: then we can play with the rules also
Tomawaky: k i admit
Tomawaky: hard for me all of this matches unplayed
Tomawaky: if you find better rules
Tomawaky: i am ready to think about it
Iceborg: first of all the number of wins should count and not the total score
Tomawaky: but in this case player would maybe refuse to play their last matches !
Iceborg: why? when you play you can at least win
Iceborg: why should i refuse to play my game at gain a 7-4 or 6-5
Tomawaky: I must think about that
Tomawaky: but the 1 pt for lose was to force player to play matches
Tomawaky: I am ready to change this
Iceborg: tryout played 2-3 matches in 6 weeks and then he was forced to play the rest
Iceborg: in 2
Tomawaky: We can make a poll on fibsboard maybe
Iceborg: getting 1 point for loss (or playing) is imho ok but 6-5 better then 6-4 nope
Tomawaky: yes and not ;-)
Tomawaky: cause you play 1match less
Iceborg: i think the best playes should play the semis and not the one wwho played more
Iceborg: since i can forfeit a game it is the same if i play my last game or not
Tomawaky: I am not disagree with you but the actual rules are not like that
Iceborg: i don t know if i would get in by equal of me and mano and zyxctba but it would be fair
Tomawaky: I will post a post on fibsboard
Tomawaky: we must change the rules before
Iceborg: sure
Tomawaky: cause with all equal zyx make effort to play one more game
Tomawaky: but i will open to make that post and heard fibsters voices
Iceborg: as long as you ca forfeit nope inmho
Tomawaky: please reply as soon as i post
Tomawaky: to open discussion
Iceborg: where will you post ?
Tomawaky: fibsboard
Iceborg: ok
Tomawaky: will do tonight
Tomawaky: do you accept I post this conversation ?
Iceborg: sure I am interested in improving the league not to get in the semis
Iceborg: cause even a 6-4 record isnot worth for semis ;-)
Tomawaky: very thank. I like to heard that I am not alone to try to do so ;-)

[Iceborg]

Hi there!

Is a 6-5 better then a 6-4 esp. when a player is able to forfeit his match.

Here is my suggestion:

When 2 players have the same number of wins, then rules 3-6 should be applied.

[adamosad]

Hi Tomawaky and Iceborg,

I think that Iceborg suggestion is good but not superior to the current system.

FLG has a lot of divisions not only master ones. Suppose 5 players in a silver division with the lower positions with the following scores 3-0, 3-8, 3-5, 3-6, 3-1. According to the rules last 4 players go to the bronze division.

With the current system the player with 3-8 is going to remain in the silver group as he was more consistent, he tried but he was unlucky. The 3-0 player had the chance to win one of the 8 other matches that he must play but he did not play them. Maybe it is fair if he goes to a lower division.

According to the suggestion, rule 3 is useless here so with rule 6 Tomawaky must find a solution, which means more work for him and problems that he may have with whine players etc

So unless we can find a modification that can cover all the situations, I do not think that we must change a system that it covers them. Maybe if someone thinks 1-2 additional rules then the suggestion may cover all the situations. . .  

[tryout]

First of all I want to know why you are dragging me into this, tomawaky?

If your real motivation was only the improvement of the rules why do you have to mention me?

Or are your intents to discredit me? If this is really the case why don't you directly talk to me instead of hiding it behind a pretence?


It is completely ridiculous of Iceborg to run to the league TD and whine about his inability to play his last match. It is even more ridiculous that I learn from this here on FibsBoard.

In order to set some facts straight:
Iceborg has an incredibly limited time frame when he apparently can play his matches. He told me he cannot play before around 19 UTC, presumably until 22 UTC, which is midnight for both of us local time. That's a window of only 3 hours (make it 4 if he stays up late)! And he even denied to be able to play on weekends!

I think this is quite difficult to meet for opponents if they don't happen to fortunately have the same time frame.

On the other hand I am able to arrange my matches from 8 or 9 UTC to 16 or 17 UTC. Of course also on weekends! That's a time frame of about 9 hours. If need be I've played outside this time frame already.

I did explain the situation to Iceborg several times and offered to play at 18 or 18.30 UTC which he said would be possible for him to make. He was completely unable to assure me of a day when he would be available at that time.

Asked for a sign of at least some flexibility he merely responded that "he wouldn't adjust his spare time to my needs". Wow! I didn't know that asking to confirm a day when he is available would be too much.

What seems to be in great need is a rule to offer a minimum of flexibility to one's opponents in order to be able to play in the leagues, rather than a change of how points are awarded.

And the answer to the unplayed matches question already exists: Players are entitled to request forfeits after they have contacted their opponents by mail with a reasonable offer of playing times and no answer. (Iceborg failed to do that.)

I think there's gone some effort by cht into making the ranking rules quite robust and universal and don't think a different scheme could improve it.

[Tomawaky]

First of all I want to know why you are dragging me into this, tomawaky?

If your real motivation was only the improvement of the rules why do you have to mention me?

Or are your intents to discredit me? If this is really the case why don't you directly talk to me instead of hiding it behind a pretence?

!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Sorry Tryout. I don't understand you ?

Did I drag you into this ? No
Did I mention you ? No  

Do I intents to discredit you ? Please I really don't understand You !

We just try to re-consider Rules if needed. Nobody said that they will change.
But sometimes it's good to look back and be sure that we're on the right way.
Hope we are

Iceborg give an exemple to start the discussion. Adamosad give it's opinion and remind us why these rules have been established.
Thanks Adamosad.

Now, we are in a forum and I tought I started an interesting discussion here.
No whine, no attack. I don't see anything ridiculous in there. Just make a point on the rules.

Is there anything bad to do this ?

Keep   man

[tryout]

First of all I want to know why you are dragging me into this, tomawaky?

Sorry Tryout. I don't understand you ?

I'll explain it to you.

Did I drag you into this ? No Did I mention you ? No  

In your post my name was mentioned twiced. Did you miss this?
And you posted the chat, nobody else. So you took on its content. Without checking whether any accusations are true.

So of course you did mention me and dragged me into this discussion!  

Do I intents to discredit you ? Please I really don't understand You !

What other conclusion do you suggest?  

Why didn't you ask your questions without mentioning me? What do I have to do with your rules?

We just try to re-consider Rules if needed. Nobody said that they will change.
...
Now, we are in a forum and I tought I started an interesting discussion here.

Start any discussion you want, but leave me out of it. If you repeat accusations in your post that concern me, don't be surprised if I answer!  

Just make a point on the rules.

Btw, I did. Please read again.

[Tomawaky]

Ok Tryout No need to go further.
I don't want to go on with you on that soapy slope.

I did not think that you were those kind of guy and those discusions really don't interesting me.

Life is too short................

[tryout]

Ignorance doesn't help you.

[Iceborg]

tryout ... first of all relax

Our topic was to improve the rules and not to blame you for missing our game.

[tryout]

Lol, Iceborg. You sure made a full turn. Some days ago I heard from you that you didn't care whether you're in play-offs or not.

Your topic was your very personal situation -- why you weren't in the play-offs. And you felt the need to say things to the league TD like

Iceborg: i invited tryout several times for our game but :-(

Iceborg: sure but if i knew i would fofeit

Iceborg: tryout played 2-3 matches in 6 weeks and then he was forced to play the rest
Iceborg: in 2

A lot of whining and blaming someone else for your personal situation.

Hey, it's supposed to be a topic about rules!  Lol, yes, I can see that!  

Cheers!    :2drunk:

[socksey]

I just wish I could understand any of it.     Who do I play?  

BTW.......argggggggggggh......Tomawaky, you started new season before I had a chance to copy points so I can argue/discuss old season points!        Can I trust you to keep everything straight?  

Back off, tryout.  No one is insulting you here.  I'll beat them up, if they do.  

socksey



"If it was so, it might be, and if it were so, it would be, but as it isn't, it ain't. That's logic." ââ,¬â€œTweedledee

[dorbel]

Tryout does seem to be extremely petulant and ready to take offence, when no offence was offered or intended, so nothing new there then.
Due to being offline while travelling, as well as battling with the Greek telephone service to provide me with a line, I was unable to complete all my matches, so I forfeited the last two, with crille and EddieVedd, in order to get the losing points at least. Incidentally EddieVedd was never on fibs after July 22nd, so rather difficult to play. Am I in the play-offs?
I have always found the rules to be fairly easy to understand and equitable, so I don't mind continuing as they are. However, I would like to see the players in MasterA and MasterB shuffled occasionally, offering a little more variety. Anybody else think that that is a good idea?

[dorbel]

Spooky! Actually one MaterA player has been moved into MasterB, our old friend tryout! We thus lose Travis, a nice opponent, who has gone to MasterA. I wonder why that happened? Couldn't we have lost don instead?

[socksey]

I have always found the rules to be fairly easy to understand and equitable, so I don't mind continuing as they are.

If so, then why ask this question:

Am I in the play-offs?

socksey



"Genius, nothing! Sticking to it is the genius! I've failed my way to success." -Thomas Edison

[Hardy_whv]

Dorbel made some very good points here:

- I think the rules are okay. I do not see a need for a change.

- Shuffling players between Master A and B from time to time sounds a GREAT  idea! I would also appreciate some shuffling (as long as I don't get seasick)  

- Tryout, relax!


Cu on FIBS soon,

Hardy    

[Iceborg]

Lol, Iceborg. You sure made a full turn. Some days ago I heard from you that you didn't care whether you're in play-offs or not.

Your topic was your very personal situation -- why you weren't in the play-offs. And you felt the need to say things to the league TD like

Iceborg: i invited tryout several times for our game but :-(

Iceborg: sure but if i knew i would fofeit

Iceborg: tryout played 2-3 matches in 6 weeks and then he was forced to play the rest
Iceborg: in 2

A lot of whining and blaming someone else for your personal situation.

Hey, it's supposed to be a topic about rules!  Lol, yes, I can see that!  

Cheers!    :2drunk:

Lol, Iceborg. You sure made a full turn. Some days ago I heard from you that you didn't care whether you're in play-offs or not.

Once again just for you ... tryout

It is not about to go into the semis. IMHO 6-5 and 6-4 are equal. Then zyxtcba, mano and me would have a 3-tie and accorsing to the rules the one with the best score would get into the semis. And it was a thought for improving the rules and not for changing them in the done session.  

[Tomawaky]

BTW.......argggggggggggh......Tomawaky, you started new season before I had a chance to copy points so I can argue/discuss old season points!        Can I trust you to keep everything straight?  

I keep a backup of each ending session, everybody is welcome to ask me for this

[Tomawaky]

Due to being offline while travelling, as well as battling with the Greek telephone service to provide me with a line, I was unable to complete all my matches, so I forfeited the last two, with crille and EddieVedd, in order to get the losing points at least. Incidentally EddieVedd was never on fibs after July 22nd, so rather difficult to play. Am I in the play-offs?
I have always found the rules to be fairly easy to understand and equitable, so I don't mind continuing as they are. However, I would like to see the players in MasterA and MasterB shuffled occasionally, offering a little more variety. Anybody else think that that is a good idea?

Not in play off if remember weel I will look at this tonight.
Post and confirm must be done before the end of the session.
All post not confirmed are deleted.

About shuffle.
I let know know this.
The 3 Top players from goldA go to MasterA
The 3 Top players from goldB go to masterB
The 3 low players from MasterA go to GoldB
The 3 low players from MasterB go to GoldA
This make some shuffle

And sometimes I make some other shuffle between MasterA and MasterB
By exemple : This session I Shuffle #biiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiip# (Sorry I cannot quote his name without fearing a declaration of nuclear war) and another player (I must remain equitable for both ;-))

But it is not easy and who knows who do not say to me that I still will receive the complaints of right-hand side and left as what it is not equitable............., why him and not me.............., yes but this league is stronger than the other...., and so on and so on.

People are so strange some times    

[Tomawaky]

Spooky! Actually one MaterA player has been moved into MasterB, our old friend tryout! We thus lose Travis, a nice opponent, who has gone to MasterA. I wonder why that happened? Couldn't we have lost don instead?

this is the suffle I explain just above    

[Tomawaky]

Then I will add this Rules to my rules pages in the schedule Matches section :

....
Players are expected to make their best efforts to complete matches in a reasonable, timely manner. Any players who believes their opponent is not making such an effort has the right to complain to me. No answer from a player for more than 2 weeks will be considered a loss (if you are unvailable for more than 2 weeks, please let me know).
No forfeith claim will be accepted during the last 2 weeks of the session.

To ask for a Forfeith, you must email fibsleagammon(at)free(dot)fr with copy to the player against whom you claim it and attach all emails that you already exchange with him. (No need to copy me of all planning message that you exchange with others players)

I think that that will be able to avoid some bad reactions.

Feel free to post some other Idea like shuffle or improvment in the rules

[Hardy_whv]

About shuffle.
I let know know this.
The 3 Top players from goldA go to MasterA
The 3 Top players from goldB go to masterB
The 3 low players from MasterA go to GoldB
The 3 low players from MasterB go to GoldA
This make some shuffle

And sometimes I make some other shuffle between MasterA and MasterB
But it is not easy and who knows who do not say to me that I still will receive the complaints of right-hand side and left as what it is not equitable............., why him and not me.............., yes but this league is stronger than the other...., and so on and so on.

Tomawaky, I know this kind of shuffle, but as I am in Master A (without going down to Gold) for about 2 years now, there is no shuffle for me so far   Thats why I would appreciate some additional shuffling between the "core Master players" as well. Hope it does not cause to much work for you as TD?!

People are so strange some times 

Quite true, but waren't we a bit strange ourselves as well  


Cu on FIBS soon,

Hardy

[adamosad]

This may satisfied you Hardy

I agree with the opinion that shuffle is needed BUT I do not agree that this must be the reason for playing a FLG session without a champion. If you have that in mind then you must do that very often (e.g. twice a year) so more shuffle can take place. Consequently we will lose 2 champions and 2 play offs. This can be a problem as the demand for the league may reduce.

I want to give you an alternative idea. Why do not insert an additional rule instead!!!

For example (modification of current rules):

MASTER LEAGUE:
Two 11-Pt Semi-Final between the winner of one league and the second of the other will determine the League's Final which should be played in 13Pts, and the winner to become the new League's Champion.
The 3 last players of each division (10, 11, 12 positions) will move DOWN to the Gold League and the 3 last that they remain (7, 8, 9 positions) will remain in master division but switch to the other group.
GOLD LEAGUE:
With 2 divisions, the top 3 (1, 2, 3) players of each will move UP to the Master League, and the last 3 (10, 11, 12) DOWN to the Silver League. The 3 last that they remain (7, 8, 9) will remain in gold division but switch to the other group.
SILVER LEAGUE:
With 3 divisions, the top 2 (1, 2) players of each will move UP to the Gold League, and the last 4 (9, 10, 11, 12) DOWN to the Bronze League. The 2 last that they remain (7, will remain in silver division but switch to another group.
BRONZE LEAGUE:
This league is divided in 4 parts. The top 3 (1, 2, 3) players of each will move UP to the Silver League. The last 6 player (if they want to continue playing in the league) will switch to another group.

With this plan, no waste league time will be created and NO-ONE will complain again. Master league groups will not change 25% like today but 50%, gold from 50% to 75%, Silver from 50% to 66,67% and bronze from 25% to 75% (in case of 12 players)

[dorbel]

It is my opinion that if I forfeit to somebody, I should get a point for that match regardless of whether or not the opponent confirms. One of the players to whom I conceded, EddieVedd, has no valid contact adress and has not been on fibs since July 22nd! Another match against Travis, I lost and posted but he never confirmed. Why shouldn't I get my points from these matches?  

[Tomawaky]

It is my opinion that if I forfeit to somebody, I should get a point for that match regardless of whether or not the opponent confirms. One of the players to whom I conceded, EddieVedd, has no valid contact adress and has not been on fibs since July 22nd! Another match against Travis, I lost and posted but he never confirmed. Why shouldn't I get my points from these matches?

Ok to get the point from Travis, but let me know that Travis did not confirm before the end of the session.

For the other point I am not convince, The 1Pt is for player who take time to play their match (and lose), not for those who decided to resin to get that point.

If you try to contact your opponent and do not hava answer, then ask for forfeith but do not post a lost.

[Tomawaky]

I want to give you an alternative idea. Why do not insert an additional rule instead!!!

Yes it's maybe the idea.

Until now it was very much work for me but I have recently made some automatic process that make my job easier.

The last thing is to ranking players when their number of points are equal. A thing that I do manually.


But It's maybe the good Idea for the next sesssion

[tryout]

Tomawaky and Iceborg,

After sleeping over it and re-reading I've come to the conclusion that I overreacted, probably quite a bit. So I'd like to apologise for my attack. Sorry! Hope you'll accept it.

In order to add something more constructive here is my view of the ranking rules.
I think the one point per match as an incentive for playing all matches is good. There are enough unplayed matches even with it.
I'd view the 6-4 vs. 6-5 problem in the same spirit. The 6-5 player should be rewarded for having played one more match, even though it's been lost. Sure, the 6-4 player could've at least drawn level if he played. But he didn't. And in the big majority of the cases he could've helped it by writing contacting mails in time. Then he gets either a forfeit or plays the match. If a player didn't write a mail there's nothing to complain about.

Just read the newly suggested rule for forfeits...
Attaching the sent mails only at the end of the season doesn't work. This way it's not provable if, with which content, when and to whom the mails have been sent. It's very easy to make up a fake email conversation.

I didn't have time to fully read adamosad's shuffle suggestion since F3 is going to start soon. I'd suggest that the first 2 or 3 players of the Master divisions are swapped every season (the play-offs should be played irrespectively). This way there are 5 - 6 new players every season also in Masters. An additional benefit is that not one Master division gets "heavier" than the other. At least it should help to level both divisions. The lower divisions are imo taken care of with the current shuffle system.

[BushSucks]

Spooky! Actually one MaterA player has been moved into MasterB, our old friend tryout! We thus lose Travis, a nice opponent, who has gone to MasterA. I wonder why that happened? Couldn't we have lost don instead?

Well, Dorbel's quite right! Now I miss the endless joy of winning against tryout! Sure, I don't always win, but... sometimes is enough!

Don't we all have that _special_ opponent... ?!

Hopefully there will be another shuffle going on between the two Master Divisions for the next session... I want my tryout back!

[BushSucks]

OK, now back to serious stuff: should there be a complete shuffle between ALL the divisions?
I think no. Players in the Master or Gold devision are there because of their skill and the willing to complete all their matches in the past (...and some luck). Otherwise they would have never gone up all the long way from sezame or bronce to Master and Gold. So they have already shown their will to play all the matches. In the last 2 sessins the reliability and will of completing all matches has dropped a little bit in Master and Gold, but before that it was quite good.

In the lower divisions it had been always bad, which results in , let's say, about 2 or 3 players with only 5 or less matches.

So I think it is not a good idea to put dorbel, sakis or spock in a low division, just because they are on #6 or #7 in their group in the current session and only for the reason of shuffeling all the shuffle...

Keep the current divisions, with the rules of going up/down one level.

Maybe it would be a funny idea to shuffle all Master players on completely random draw into two master groups for every new session, (and the same for all other divisions as well) but I can imagine that this is just too much work for Tomawaky.

ANother word on scheduling matches and time zones? How about putting the european players in one group and the ones from N+S-America into the other? Or at least TRY to put them in a group of their similar time zones?! Just an idea...

After all, I wanna say that I enjoy the FLG as it is, and even the rules for scheduling and forfeiting the matches are clear.

The only change I would like to see is penalizing someone for not finishing his/her matches stronger than now. e.g. a player who has less than 8 matches will be deleted completely.
Regards, BushSucks