toggle allowpip

[don]

This issue comes up periodically, most recently because I've gotten into the habit of checking to see if my opponents allow use of the FIBS' pipcounter.  Here's the FIBS' help file if you enter "help pip" on your command line:

> help pip

NAME
pip - Display pip count

SYNOPSIS
  pip

DESCRIPTION
  With the pip command you can see your and your opponent's pipcount.
  For those who don't know what 'pipcount' means: it's the total amount
  of points you have to move your pieces to bear them all off.
  This command can only be used if both players have set their 'allowpip'
  toggle to YES (that's the default). Type 'toggle allowpip' if you think
  that using a computer to compute the pipcount is not fair.
  This command can also be used while watching a game if both players
  have set their allowpip-toggle to YES.

SEE ALSO
  toggle, toggle-allowpip

Note that turning the option off is no guarantee that a Graphic User Interface (GUI) cannot provide your opponent with a count.  What's really silly is observing a user toggling pips 'on' to get a count, then 'off' so the opponent can't get one.  (Yes, I've seen this happen.)

My poll question is mainly for tourney-play, and as you may guess, mainly so that I can express my opinion here without interruption.  Flames are OK, but after the fact, and will be noted here and answered if worth it--as opposed to shouts on FIBS.  I'm attempting to answer all objections to a tournament policy requiring allowpip.  To me it's a no-brainer at least in tournaments where players don't always know and/or trust each other:

• It is impossible to guarantee that neither player has access to an automatic counter, so both should have access;
• Players who want the practice of counting for themselves should either set the option locally on their own GUI or find a GUI that allows them to do so (This may require them to learn something about their own GUIs);
• Players who claim that it makes no difference since anyone can count pips are incorrect both in fact and in timing--Some players don't know how, some players may take a very long time(!);
• The argument that players can also use a bot like gnu to play in tourneys is irresolvable:  Allowing pip counters can be done, disallowing bots involves analysis of play and eternal arguments (This argument is basically:  If you can't solve all problems, don't solve any);
• Wiser players than I established this obvious precedent many years ago--see FIBS league rules or  Escofferey's long established rules
  

If I've missed a good reason to turn off the FIBS' pipcounter during tourneys, please let me know.  I'd enjoy nothing more than a convincing argument that I'm wrong here.  In any event, in any tourney I run on FIBS "toggle allowpip" must be set on (default).

--
don

[socksey]

Me too, but I don't understand the wording of your poll.   

socksey



"I know only two words of American slang, 'swell' and 'lousy'. I think 'swell' is lousy, but 'lousy' is swell." - J. B. Priestley, English author and playwright (1894-1984).

[don]

...I don't understand the wording of your poll.

What don't you get, socks?

--
don

[inim]

Problem here is not the setting of any server side toggle, but enforcibility. JavaFIBS doesn't even read the "allowpip" toggle, and my bet is no client does. If you play on fibs, expect that clients can do any cheat up to using a bot. There is nothing that can be done about it, there is no way to enforce any "rule" for clients.

If you feel treated unfair, just use a better client.

[don]

inim came up with an argument I hadn't thought of, that "all" on FIBS have access to a pipcount even when the toggle is set to off.  His reasoning apears to be that his GUI can count pips, so there's no problem turning off the FIBS' pipcounter since he figures everyone else has a GUI that does so.  Seems silly to me, but here it is:

> You shout: speaking of pips, I'd like to know if there's some reason I don't know of why allowing FIBS' pipcounter during tourneys should NOT be allowed.
RickrInSF shouts: how can that be prevented don?
> You shout: It appears to be an issue with people like donzaemon, souptree, diane...
RickrInSF shouts: pip counting is not on the server, it is on the client
> You shout: you can turn it off for those who don't have a GUI that provides it, rick.
> You shout: It's also on the server, and a toggle, Rick.
RickrInSF shouts: well, never mind, donzaemon? really, be serious
RickrInSF shouts: but cannot be prevented (cuz it's on the client
RickrInSF shouts: therefor, why try?
> You shout: It can be prevented if your opponent does NOT have a client that counts
RickrInSF shouts: so, only allow certain versions of certain programs?
> You shout: No rick, I'm saying that, in tourneys, the FIBS pipcounter should be required since it is impossible to tell if both players have access to a pipcounter.
> You shout: I'm just wondering if there's some reason I have not considered for people like donzaemon, NIHo, zyxtcba, souptree and diane, for example, to object to a requirement that the FIBS' pipcount be allowed during electronic tourneys here.
RickrInSF shouts: because calculating pipcount by head takes practice, and they have allready practiced?
inim shouts: don, stop lamenting about client capabilities
inim shouts: there is nothing that can be "forbidden" on the client side
> You shout: Simple query inim, nothing to do with clients except fair.
inim shouts: javafibs does the pip count client side, and my guess is all others do too
inim shouts: that server flag is moot
inim shouts: javafibs doesn't even read it
inim shouts: if you play online, expect nothing short of a full gnubg facing you, if that is a problem for you, don't play online
inim shouts: my personal consequence is not to play for money online
inim shouts: and that#s it
> You shout: So you are saying, inim, that it's OK in a tourney if you are a javaFIBS user to get an auto-pipcount, and toggle allowpip on FIBS so that your opponent may not be able to do the same?
inim shouts: yes, that's fine
> You shout: Thanks inim, you've supported my thesis.
inim shouts: whatever your thesis was
inim shouts: point is that there is no client side control for fibs, and your lamenting won't create one
inim shouts: point even is there is no client side control for ANY online game server, albeit cheating in fibs is particularily easy
> You shout: My thesis is, inim, that since it's impossible to enforce a rule that pipcounters are not used, FIBS' pipcount should be "on" for tourneys.
inim shouts: as said, clients don't even read that flag
inim shouts: so set it to any value you like
> You shout: What about clients that don't provide a local pipcount, inim?
inim shouts: i don't care what other clients do, mine does
inim shouts: but my client also supports gnubg, hehe
> You shout: ah, always nice to talk "logic" with inim.  I suspect I'm about to be permagagged for 24 hours or more by this illiterate bozo.
inim shouts: don, there is no "logic" in here, just enforceablility
> You shout: inim, in a tourney, do you think it fair for one person to have access to pipcounts and deny the same to opponent?
inim shouts: it doesn't matter what you consider fair, only what is technically possible
inim shouts: enforcing any restriction on clients is not
inim shouts: no, how so?
inim shouts: there is no way to control
inim shouts: or observe
> You shout: Uh, if I ask for a pipcount, and FIBS won't give it to me, it tells me that my opponent has it turned off, inim.  Then I can simply say he is not following the rules of the tourney.
inim shouts: don, you are boring
inim shouts: repeating the impossible doesn't make it viable
> You shout: I'm guessing that it's a language problem that is making you look either obtuse or stupid, inim.  If you have anything serious to say about "toggle allowpip", please contribute your thoughts to http://www.fibsboard.com/using-backgammon-software/toggle-allowpip-t1886.0.html;msg14271;topicseen#new
inim shouts: the problem is in the word "you can say"
inim shouts: you simply can NOT say
inim shouts: as said, toggle allowpip is ignored by all clients, it's an outdated and unused server feature
inim shouts: all i am aware of
inim shouts: what is a root client?
> You shout: In OO, inim, it's the basics
inim shouts: don, you talk gibberish
inim shouts: what the #### TCP/IP has to do with that now?
inim shouts: beside dropping words you hardly understand, what is your point?
inim shouts: name me any way to enforce anything client side, or stfu
resh_lakish shouts: b#t#h slap him with your mouse inim
> You shout: Are you saying that you know of a client that connnects to FIBS in some other manner than Telnet, inim, or gets I/O that is not specified by the FIBS Client interface?
inim shouts: you confuse ISO/OSI layers here, don
inim shouts: we are at the application layer
inim shouts: you are on layers 3 and 4
inim shouts: i am on 7
inim shouts: you can enforce nothing on layer 7
> You shout: Do all users of FIBS have as sophisticate a GUI as you, inim?
inim shouts: layer 3 is irrelevant, and layer 4 is ignored
inim shouts: i don't care for all clients
inim shouts: i just say it can not be enforced
inim shouts: haven't seen you saying anything that invalidates that claim yet
> You shout: Thanks for your input, inim, making my point.  Enjoy.
inim shouts: you are getting senile, don

inim's arg makes no sense to me, BTW.  I think some GUI programmers are attempting to rewrite FIBS according to their own whimsical beliefs, with no coordination with the open FIBS protocol.  See JAVA-permagag.  I'd appreciate an explanation.

--
don

[PersianLord]

If pip-count facility can NOT be banned for ALL participants during tourneys, thus it MUST be ALLOWED for ALL of them. This is fair and just.

Apart from that, I think the most important issue that must be solved is the "bot-using" problem, not allowing auto pip-counting.

[socksey]

What don't you get, socks?

If you just "allow" use of command, then you can command yes or no.  If you don't "allow" use of command, then pips can be turned off or on before tourney begins.  Sooooooooo, I don't understand the wording of your poll.  Tell me specifically what a "yes" vote means and a "no" vote means, please.   

Or maybe you can just tell me how to vote so that pip count is allowed, because that's what I will vote for.     Pip count must be allowed in the tourneys I run, because I am too impatient to wait every move while someone calculated pip count manually.   

ty........socksey



"Life is a lot like jazz…it's best when you improvise." - George Gershwin

[PersianLord]

If you just "allow" use of command, then you can command yes or no.  If you don't "allow" use of command, then pips can be turned off or on before tourney begins.  Sooooooooo, I don't understand the wording of your poll.  Tell me specifically what a "yes" vote means and a "no" vote means, please.   

Or maybe you can just tell me how to vote so that pip count is allowed, because that's what I will vote for.     Pip count must be allowed in the tourneys I run, because I am too impatient to wait every move while someone calculated pip count manually.   

ty........socksey



"Life is a lot like jazz…it's best when you improvise." - George Gershwin

Also some abusers may make their oppoents mad by lenghty delays on the execuse of calculating pip-counts!

[NIHILIST]

Far as I'm concerned, pipcount should always be allowed, and it probably is in 99% of the matches played on FIBS, the other 1% involving Don. The argument used for NOT allowing it is that in real play, tourney and money, the players are responsible for keeping the count themselves. Problem with that argument is that FIBS isn't real play, and allowing pipcounts certainly keeps the game moving at a good pace. I suppose one could make the case for not allowing pipcounts during the rare instances where paid entry tourneys are played on FIBS, the reason being to approximate real world situations, but I'd still personally oppose it.


NIHILIST

[Tom]

It is really a moot point since if you have a match where there is a gentleman's agreement that pip counting should be done manually you are
also assuming that your opponent does not have GNUBG/Snowie up and running to count pips, suggest moves and cube actions.

Tom