Personal responsibility and FIBS drama

[Patti]

I've had to explain this several times in the last few weeks, and many many times in the last decade and a half, so I'm going to say it publicly.  This is not intended for any one individual.  Rather, it is addressed to all of you who create and feed drama on FIBS and engage in abusive behavior.

You are responsible for your behavior on FIBS.  You are the one sitting at your keyboard shouting, kibitzing, and telling.  You are the person who put your fingers on the keys and typed out your last message.  YOU.

I keep getting dragged into playground dramas and bad behavior.  Every time I talk to someone about their unacceptable behavior on FIBS, their response is, "But (the other person) said (some mean thing) about me.  (The other person) started it.  I was just defending myself."

That argument carries no weight with me.  Maybe (the other person) did say something mean about you.  They did not make you reply.  No, you are the person who put your fingers on the keyboard and composed a reply-- they did not make you do it.  You choose whether you engage with this person or not, and if you choose to engage with them then you are feeding the drama.  They did not make you do it-- YOU MADE THE CHOICE, and you are responsible for it.

You can't control what someone else says on FIBS.  You can control whether you listen to it or not, though, and you are 100% responsible for the way that you do or don't respond to it.

Own your behavior.  Think twice about what you say and do.  Try to deescalate conflicts rather than escalating them.  And whatever you do, don't blame your behavior on anyone but yourself.

[diane]

This is an admirable approach to what is a very difficult area to moderate, with regard to human behaviour.

Recent escalation of episodes of cyberbullying and associated suicides have highlighted just how incredibly powerful anonymous attacks over the internet can be. 

There is much work going on to understand this over reaction of people to [someone] saying something [mean] about them over the internet, and the most likely source of that reaction is that the [mean] thing is seen by so many people.

Once upon a time, someone said something [mean] to you in the playground, you could either ignore it and tell the 5 or 10 people who saw it the truth, or you could pummell the person who said it into the ground, so that the 5-10 people who saw it would not dream of repeating it, and the person who said it would defintely never do that again.  Now someone says something mean about you, you cant do ANYTHING about it, you cant ignore it, because it is spreading like wildfire, and you cant shut the speaker up, because they are hiding somewhere - physically and legally. 

That powerlessness drives humans crazy...literally.

We are evolving to deal with life on the internet, we are growing up and getting more used to and less outraged by things that go on.  In the meantime, some patience with and understanding that it is natural for people to escalate the bad behaviour would go a long way [note, I do not use words like 'condone' or 'tolerate'].

Take that understanding, and make positive, helpful statements like the one I am replying to, about why we need to not react - and to moderate our own actions..rather than have a place that is smothered, or burdensome to its admin.

And above all, do not allow people to sit on your site, abusing and ignoring the policy you have just outlined for well over 10 years without doing something about it.  All the time they do that, the new intake will escalate, troll, spread and feed on that.

[ah_clem]

I've been off fibs for a couple of weeks.  Sounds like I missed quite a soap-opera.

On the positive side, I'm sure that there's more to come,  so I doubt I really missed anything. 

[manxcat]

"Now someone says something mean about you, you cant do ANYTHING about it,
you cant ignore it,
because it is spreading like wildfire,
and you cant shut the speaker up,
because they are hiding somewhere - physically and legally." 

This is true...

but Patti you are saying that everyone has to abide by the same rules.

I have never seen that happen. 

There are people who are permitted to say whatever they wish about anyone else, and are never banned,
and
NOW
you are saying that we should just let them to continue to defame whomever they choose to.

The defamed should not ESCALATE things by DEFENDING themselves

which only allows the defamers to continue to create the impressions they choose

because the defamers are NOT STOPPED

But the defenders are.

Anywhere else in the country one is allowed to defend oneself.  It is a right, but not here.  Only defamers are allowed to continue.

[dorbel]

And above all, do not allow people to sit on your site, abusing and ignoring the policy you have just outlined for well over 10 years without doing something about it.  All the time they do that, the new intake will escalate, troll, spread and feed on that.

because the defamers are NOT STOPPED

But the defenders are.

Diane and WildThing make good points here Patti. There are aggressors and there are victims here. Perhaps if you were to distinguish between them and address the problem bullies, the bullied wouldn't have anything to whine about.

[stog]

i think this is not about whether people can respond, which they can, it is more about how they respond;

one type of response may merely correct an untruth, another may correct, but also inflame a situation...

and often it is best to let something disappear into the ether unchallenged........

How people treat you is their karma

How you react is yours

[ah_clem]

FIBS Shouts reminds me of that old aphorism about academia:

"The battles are so fierce because the stakes are so small."

[Patti]

See, that's the thing.  I don't believe there *are* aggressors and victims.  Every time I've checked, and I mean EVERY SINGLE TIME, I've found aggressors and aggressors.  Everyone claims that they're the innocent victim, but I've never seen a case where that was true.

[manxcat]

Then you are not looking very closely or carefully, because there have been many times and many people, myself included, where we have not been aggressive in response.  We have simply asked the person to stop, or asked why they insist on obsessing over us, and even ignored them while the flames continued.  I know dorbel, among others, has suffered in silence on many occasions, while he was flamed and insulted.  

And just maybe because we did not respond in kind, there were no complaints, and therefore you did not see those myriad occasions.

But sometimes... you need to set the record straight.
Why you ask?
Because otherwise you get a negative reputation and people come into tell to comment on the flames, or to ask the truth, and (most often) to insult and continue the abuse.  People begin to dislike others based on the venom spouted by the trolls and ****stirrers.



And in case you continue to not see this, I will be more than happy to inform  you of it, when I see it.

[Patti]

Show me one person, ONE, who has been the subject of hostilities and has never thrown any.

The only possible cases I can think of are Odesys users, and that's only because they can't participate in shouts.  The abuse that's heaped on them is usually "(user) is a dropper", and it's generally a fact-based statement.

[manxcat]

bonnita has been the target of unpleasantness and has never been even the slightest bit rude, much less thrown ANY hostility or invective.  There are others
but
I did not say never....

I said on myriad occasions
which you for some reason can't see...
because most of the time there is no issue because there is no response


Even you have said some very unpleasant things
But then you have the power to do what you wish.
Then again, all this discussion is moot because you will do exactly as you have planned anyway.

BTW are you going to return my shouts?  You started this over YOUR misunderstanding of a joke I made with socksey.  And in the end I defended myself during your 5 minute recess.  Much worse has gone one since and continues to, yet I have no shout.  But many other, worse offenders do.  I asked you to poll if people think you are fair.  You demurred.  I think i will set one up.

[Patti]

I declared a five-minute moratorium on picking on each other.  It took a whole 31 seconds for you to hurl an insult about someone, and do so in a way which indicated that you'd read my five-minute moratorium message.  Hurling an insult is not defending yourself-- it's attacking someone.  It was also doing something that I'd very clearly just asked you (and everyone else) not to do.  

As I told you privately, you can have your shouts back when you take responsibility for your actions.  You don't seem interested in doing that-- you keep hiding behind the empty excuse that you were defending yourself.

[manxcat]

I have told you I take responsibility for my actions, always have, always will.
I guess that is not enough.  


I did not insult inim
inim shouts: no need to comment that bunch of lies, WT
You shout: no lies
You shout: how many itmes have i asked you to stop evenwhen i agreed with you
You shout:  no lies
inim shouts: i is not exactly "we all"
inim shouts: and personally i do not recall you asking me anything
Patti shouts: FIVE MINUTE MORATORIUM ON PICKING ON EACH OTHER, starting now.  The first one who violates it gets a shout ban.
You shout: sure right after inim gets hto say his lies

I was commenting on your timing, and that i would not be allowed to rebut inim


Perhaps lies was the wrong term, perhaps he simply has memory problems. If so I do sincerely apologize.
But as often as he has been asked to stop, and cannot remember, I think we should help him.  And I would ask anyone here who has asked him to stop to please post here.
A simple "I have" will suffice.  Whether it was please stop, or give it a rest, or stfu need not be included.  


I personally have asked him as have most regular shouters.  On one occasion, I said to him, while I normally agree with you, just this once could you please stop.  It's Sunday.  Just for today.  And he said since you ask nice manxie, I will stop. 

[Patti]

And you don't think calling someone a liar (which is what you did by calling his statements lies) is an insult?  You could have said the same thing without insinuating that he was a liar with something like, "sure, right after inim had his say."

[PersianLord]

Should I remind you that the single most important recommendations to heed in jurisdiction sphere are 'consistency' and 'equity'? Well, I have to say that based on my 3 years of experience in FIBS, and even though that all FIBSters are assumed to be treated equally, it seems that some members are a little bit more equal than others in the eyes of our beloved, benevolent despot. This sad phenomenon sometimes reach such gigantic dimensions that I wonder what pleasing favors these blue-eyed boys have done to gain your Royal Assent which enables them to ignite the evil flames of war among the nation without any correctional action coming from the sysopian office.

If you abolish the unfair privileges that the apples of your eyes enjoy, all of the FIBS nation will be as obedient and calm as a retarded sheep and, I assure you, that there will be not even a single occasion of a blasphemous challenge to your sacred, divine throne. (Inshallah)

PL

[manxcat]

I told you then I responded so fast I could not stop it.
Have you never done that?
Of course not you are perfect as are your as Purrsian so aptly put it 'apples'.
Why do you think i shouted #### right after that???

[RickrInSF]

Patti,
  I think you are wrong to say that all aggressors are the same. You have some some cyber bullies on your site and this is not the same as kindergarten, although i understand your inclination to think so. I have no solutions to offer you, i wouldn't do your job unless you paid me far more than you make I am so sorry that i ever caused you extra work, i didn't understand at the time.

  I was attacked by bullies on your site from day one (in retrospect, i would not have put SF in my nickname if i had known there were so many homophobes on fibs), and i have found from other chat sites that the only way to not be constantly harrassed by bullies is to immeadiately fight back (not with name calling or swearing, but with humour and wit), "being nice" and taking it like dorbel does for hours, never seems to work.

anyway, thanks for fibs, i hope you can find some solution (if you do, you can probably make a mint selling it to other chat rooms

[Patti]

Perhaps the fact that you responded with an insult so quickly that you couldn't stop it is a reason to give you pause?  If insulting people is so ingrained that you couldn't stop it, then perhaps you are far more entrenched in the hostilities than you think?

As for consistency, everyone has a level playing field coming in. Once you've broken rules and caused problems then the standards do change.  I am far less lenient with repeat offenders.  I suspect that the people who whine about me being inconsistent are the ones who are caused me trouble repeatedly over the years.

[PersianLord]

As for consistency, everyone has a level playing field coming in. Once you've broken rules and caused problems then the standards do change.  I am far less lenient with repeat offenders.  I suspect that the people who whine about me being inconsistent are the ones who are caused me trouble repeatedly over the years.

Off point. Every one might behave badly from time to time and s/he should be punished. So what? Does it provide for a base to treat fibsters unequally?!

PL

[NIHILIST]

I dont have much of a gripe, I've been bully and bullied. I just have one simple question; why the special treatment for inim ? Does he have disemvowelling privileges or have you created a bot that does it or are you just always around to powder his bottom ?

I think youll find that he spreads as much discord as anyone on FIBS, especially when he gets on one of his anti-Israel rants.

Bob

[manxcat]

Obviously what I did was so heinous, that I cannot have shouts back.  Irregardless of the fact that it was the first time.  So be it. 

All hail the Queen.


Thanks Bob. 

Oh and Patti you denied inim codes for you although he admitted he has/did/does in shout as well as in tell to me.  Fairly recently, in fact. 

[Patti]

inim codes for himself.  The things that he does are independent third-party contributions to the FIBS ecosphere.  He has not written a single line of code that I have run.

And do you really think that it was the first time you've hurled an insult or fed drama? 

[manxcat]

first time gagged, not a repeat offender by your standards...
and it took me a year and a half of trying, to see what it would take
pity it had to be under a group mandate
in your mistaken response to a joke
done

[socksey]

but Patti you are saying that everyone has to abide by the same rules.

I have never seen that happen. 

Perhaps this occurs because most of the conversation with Patti is done privately.     I don't think any of us have a clue how much Patti puts up with or what all that might be.   

I think all of us who have great advice to give in this thread, should step back and listen to what Patti has said and enough said on that.   

Oh, and as for inim, I've told him to stfu several times although I respect and admire him for some things, I hate when he rants abuse at my country, shouts news items I didn't come to Fibs to hear, political debate items, and that goes for anyone since he's not quite alone in that arena.  I have desisted in that practice in the future.  (Come to think of it, I don't recall him ever doing any of those things when Patti is present.) 

Dorbel has been one of the worst abusers on Fibs in the past.     He tends to be more silent these days and that may be a good thing.  Maybe it's just his sarcastic sense of humor that we have seen.  Maybe not.  Anyway, I promise not to throw out the old tired insult that was thrown at me again either.  He has a lot to contribute and I would not like to interfere with that.   

I've never seen any abuse thrown at Bonnita, otherwise, I, no doubt, would have been in the middle of whoever threw it.     Bonnisis is a true angel of Fibs!   

Inim seems to be very happy about the new stricter Fibs policy.  I, on the other hand, find Fibs to be far more boring than in the past. 

Several times lately, when I've played on Fibs, there has not been a word spoken in shouts.  Is this what we want? 

socksey



It is the chiefest point of happiness that a man is willing to be what he is. - Desiderius Erasmus

[diane]

I've never seen any abuse thrown at Bonnita, otherwise, I, no doubt, would have been in the middle of whoever threw it.     Bonnisis is a true angel of Fibs!   

That is what so many of us do...we rarely attack because of something [mean] that was said to us specifically, but because of smething that we witnessed that was unfair, nasty or racist to someone else.  We step in, and break the rule that has been set for us...'ignore it all and do not escalate anything'.

Then we complain when the return fire is personal to us...and lo, we do not have the 'perfectly clean record' required to have a leg to stand on with Patti.

[Patti]

As socksey said, you see very little of my interactions with people on FIBS.  The fact that you don't see something doesn't mean that it hasn't happened.

Another common pattern is, "But such-and-such did it too.  Why aren't you yelling at him?"  I probably am, it's just that (as I usually am with the person I'm talking to) it's being done privately.  But manxcat, since you want the discussion to be public, I'll tell you the same thing publicly that I did privately.  When you're ready to take responsibility for your behavior, you can have your shouts back.  That includes understanding that you did indeed hurl an insult and contribute to the vitriol.

[diane]

I, on the other hand, find Fibs to be far more boring than in the past.  Several times lately, when I've played on Fibs, there has not been a word spoken in shouts.  Is this what we want? 

If it means no one is being attacked and abused, and there is less 'drama', yes, that is what I want. Very much - and I have said that repeatedly.

I want to be able to shout support to a newbie without it being lst in a sea of stupid, childish or nasty stuff...I want to be able to shout a tourney without that being lost in what can happen out there.

I want to be ale to have pleasant and humerous conversations when it isn't interrupting any of the above...and for thse who dont find my input humerous or pleasant to simply follow the rules and gag me...not hurl insult after insult or lie after lie.

Yes I have been caught up in the nasty myself...but I have taken a shedload more than I have given..

I will also point out, I was on fibs for about two years before I bothered to shout at all....I watched the shouters with distaste, and did not want to be involved.  It was only around the time of tourneybot, when I wanted to run tourneys that I entered the shout arena at all.

I joined fibs in 2002, and only after my comments in the 'snakepit' thread...in 2004 did I really get involved in what I will call 'defending myself'

Read down that first page again - and look how far we have...I would say 'inched', but we havent even gone that far...since 2004

http://www.fibsboard.com/general-chit-chat/community-or-snakepit/

Back before don started dictating to me over what I should and should not do...he posted the comment being battered round shouts at that time..

I was giving half an eye to shouts on FIBS this afternoon when the amazing term, "dildiane" caught my eye.  I scrolled up, and it turns out Biggles was flaming someone named "diane" about her posts on FIBSboard.com.  I came here and checked it out.

So this is what's funny or pathetic:  Biggles was whining because diane wouldn't defend herself in shouts, with Biggles' buds ready to flame her to cinders; and when I checked out this forum, I didn't see a single word from Biggles.  I'm sure this'll be fertilizer for Biggles' next tirade, so I'd ask him to quote this:  "Biggles, why don't you have the courage to respond when you don't have your backups?  Reply to diane's words on FIBSboard.com ON FIBSboard.com"!

Should I bold the term...Biggles was whining because diane wouldn't defend herself in shouts

I really, really, really did not want an escalated battle in shouts...it took about another year for that to change, when I realised nothing else was gonna happen, and I was utterly fed up with being the wrong end of shouts.  So you can thank the shout culture for what I have gotten up to there - I literally watched and learned and then did...

[socksey]

Ah, rats!     What's the point?   

socksey



Let one therefore keep the mind pure, for what a man thinks, that he becomes. - The Upanishads

[NIHILIST]

Did I miss it or did Patti just choose to not answer my questions about inim's favored nations status at FIBS ?

Does he help in some way to improve the overall FIBS experience ? Lend technical assistance ? Anything above and beyond the call of duty that might prompt Patti to cut him some extra slack ?

I don't particularly care if he does things that give Patti reasons to cut him some extra slack, but if he doesn't, Patti's silence only works to confirm the opinion that she indeed shows favoritism.

Bob

[diane]

inim codes for himself.  The things that he does are independent third-party contributions to the FIBS ecosphere.  He has not written a single line of code that I have run.

That answer?

[manxcat]

Did I miss it or did Patti just choose to not answer my questions about inim's favored nations status at FIBS ?

Does he help in some way to improve the overall FIBS experience ? Lend technical assistance ? Anything above and beyond the call of duty that might prompt Patti to cut him some extra slack ?

I don't particularly care if he does things that give Patti reasons to cut him some extra slack, but if he doesn't, Patti's silence only works to confirm the opinion that she indeed shows favoritism.

Bob

she has not answered many questions i asked, and points others have raised,
and has ignored where i took responsibility and apologized....
sorry i missed this yesterday, as my pc has been giving me trouble




one answer Diane, among many questions...

and inim has said he has coded for her, so is she saying he is a liar???

and of course never addresses that she mistook a joke and spun it around, until it suited her agenda.

and Patti YOU ARE THE ONE WHO TOOK THIS PUBLIC WITH THIS FORUM TOPIC
not me 
you pointed me to it and thereby invited me to respond.
spin that

[manxcat]

And diane, much as i hate to threaten our current friendship, there was a time we did not have that
and you were posting shouts about me being dim for my choice in friends, among other things.
as a matter of fact i received a phone call from bonnita about it, as i was out, and she was very upset.

and btw, the silliness to the newbies is innocent fun, and there is always someone to set them straight.

i think very few of us are innocent of starting something on occasion. 
but most of us handle it without whining to patti
and because of the whiners we are now all being taken to task

funny she allowed anyone to villify and attack don in any way they liked, but permabanned him for annoyingly insisting she do something about all this....
and now she is
anyone else see the irony?

[diane]

one answer Diane, among many questions...

and inim has said he has coded for her, so is she saying he is a liar???

It is an answer, I cannot comment on the quality of it, as I dont know what inim has or has not done..apart frm talking me down off the kitchen shelf every now and then 

Can we not at least try here to use less inflammatory language? Assume innocence...maybe they have different understandings of things that have been done...

And as for questions...and requesting what favours inim has done to be allowed such 'grace', I would be much more interested to know what Nihi has ever done, to be allowed to do what he does, for as long as he has, without a single positive contribution to fibs that I have seen...

Assuming innoncence...maybe there is something he wants to share to demonstrate his worthiness within...

[manxcat]

And you don't think calling someone a liar (which is what you did by calling his statements lies) is an insult?  You could have said the same thing without insinuating that he was a liar with something like, "sure, right after inim had his say."

and again, he had just called me a liar.  and when you asked me in shout Patti shouts: Was that volunteering, WT?
You shout: take it how you see it, you always do
and i said in  tell i hit the send key too fast.  i am smart enough to have changed it, but my  fingers were too fast.

You obviously missed my apology, and my accepting responsibility for myself, several times now
AND NEVER DID YOU TAKE HIM TO TASK FOR CALLING ME A LIAR

but like socks said

Ah, rats!    What's the point?  

you will respond to what you choose to respond to, and ignore what you choose to ignore and spin what you choose to spin.
your prerogative. you are the queen,
but you are not fair
so please do not pretend you are.
i used to have respect for you.  you have lost it with this entire mishegas of spin and misdirection, ignoring legitimate questions, apologies, and acceptance of responsibility, and your blatant favoritism.

i would have more respect for you if you simply acknowledged that you are unfair, and that is your choice as queen, whether or not it is right

socks was right, fibs has become boring, not because it is nicer, but because some people are afraid to shout for fear of reprisal
others do as diane said: the devil/angel flips some shouters do when patti is not there

and yes patti it was about whining, no matter how much you deny it.
because there is a contingent who whines to you
you could tell them like you have told me and a number of others to gag
but you choose who you will go after, by personal feeling, not unilaterally, evenhandedly, fairly



point taken di.

[Patti]

Manxcat, go back tot he beginning and see where I wrote this:

"This is not intended for any one individual.  Rather, it is addressed to all of you who create and feed drama on FIBS and engage in abusive behavior."

In fact, I did not take the discussion about you public.  This particular thread had very little to do with you.  It had to do with about five different incidents that I've had to deal with over the past week.  While you may have a guilty conscience about your behavior and assume that this discussion is directed at you, that's not the case.  If anything, you were a very minor player in what prompted me to write this.

And again, you assume that because you don't see something that it didn't happen.  That's not a valid assumption.


And as many times as I've said this, I'll say it once more.  It's not about the whining.  It's about the fact that I provide this platform out of the kindness of my heart, and a handful of people use it primarily as a platform for picking on each other.  I am NOT COOL with that.  I don't know how to make this any clearer to you than it already is-- it's about the abuse, not about the whining about abuse.

By the way, the stupidity to the newbies is not innocent fun.  It makes it really hard for sincerely helpful people to communicate with them.  The newbie is barraged with a whole bunch of responses, some good and some bullshit, and has no real way of knowing who to trust.  The stupidity with the newbies makes FIBS an unwelcoming place.  Stop doing it, all of you.

[KissMyAss]

I think my blog, entitled The Imaginary World Around Us, which you can find at www.woman4hire.blogspot.com  covers this exact topic. 

What someone says on a website, is completely irrelevant to the real life of the person they 'flame' unless the person on the receiving end, makes it relevant.  None of you call me offline, I will probably never meet any of you, much as I would love to, therefore once I am off-site or offline, nothing that was said matters any more.   

If one of you abuses me one day, the next day when I log back in, I will chat to you like nothing happened.  Why??  Mainly, cos nothing did.  It's words on a screen, they disappear.   If you're so thin skinned that you take offense to something that was written, about you or someone you know, and then have to wage a battle to rectify the situation or 'defend your honour', then why be on a website?  The only reason that words create ill-feeling, is because they are repeated.  "hey did you hear what someone said about you....".  Who gives a toss??  Call me and say it to me directly if it's that important to you to abuse me, otherwise you're just peeing into the wind.   It's pointless. 
Words like 'liar' are just words.   They are thrown around in order to get a response from someone, and the accuser will sit back and watch, and think "ooooh i got her/him to bite back, aren't i funny".  Why give other people the power to control your emotions and feelings?  Especially people that aren't part of your every day life, or those who don't sit at your Christmas dinner table.   

I get online, I joke around with people, I chat to everyone, and I leave.  If people want to hurl some stuff my way, so be it.  It only makes them look pathetic for trying to start something with me.  If anything, as I usually say, "talk about me while I'm gone, I love the attention!". 

As long as we're airing our grievances though, I do have something to add.....  One thing that does bug me, is people who come online, then jump into shouts, demanding that someone stop talking about a certain subject because they don't want to see it, or it interrupts the conversation they are trying to start with someone else and can't read the responses.  Um...... would you go into a shopping mall, and demand everyone shut the hell up so you can hear yourself talk to your friend?  Do you call or write the newspapers and tell them to stop printing things you don't feel like reading?   If you don't like the topic in shouts, suggest a new one or go into tells and chat to your friends uninterrupted.  That's why they are there.
I know this subject has been mentioned in someones reply on this forum, and I am not directly attacking whoever that was, so for the love of god, do not come at me all huffy about this.  Or do.  All I am saying, is that it's rude to tell people what they can and can't talk about, and if you don't do it in real life when you are out, don't do it online. 

Anyway, that's all I have to add.  Thanks.

[diane]

I think my blog, entitled The Imaginary World Around Us, which you can find at www.woman4hire.blogspot.com  covers this exact topic. 
One thing that does bug me, is people who come online, then jump into shouts, demanding that someone stop talking about a certain subject because they don't want to see it, or it interrupts the conversation they are trying to start with someone else and can't read the responses.  Um...... would you go into a shopping mall, and demand everyone shut the hell up so you can hear yourself talk to your friend?  Do you call or write the newspapers and tell them to stop printing things you don't feel like reading? 

Some great points there KMA, and I must go read that blog..

One day we will all be as perfect as you are, and realise what you say is true...but we arent yet - and some will take it seriously, and fewer still, seriously enough to end their lives over it.  I have to say...I find it a bit hard to stomach that we all have to learn to live with something unpleasant, because a handful of individuals cannot control their own actions.

Look at you KMA - do you ever...ever say anything to upset anyone?  You are there to have a giggle, and I love to engage in some fun word play, or banter with you - and plenty of others like you.  It is what makes this site special [yes - that's you Darl] 

As for shout topics...you are right about not controlling it..and I love your analagy...but consider for a moment..if the mall were on fire..would you want *someone* to be able to get that message over the general din?  If your child had been abducted...and you wanted to seal the place down and have everyone helping the search..would it not be good to be able to get that message across...

So - although nothing *that* serious will happen at fibs...newbies need to be able to ask questions and have their pleas heard over the general hubub...and then yes, it can go to tell maybe. [I say maybe, because it isnt always obvious to them...they shout and they look at the shout area for a response...and it takes a moment to steer them into tells]

Tourneys need to be able to be visible over the trivia shouts...

If Patti is gonna close the site for a moment, she needs to be able to get that message out..

But above all else...if I am playing a bago final...I need you all to be quiet so I dont get distracted 

[diane]

None of you call me offline, I will probably never meet any of you

You can count on meeting me when I get up to your end of this fair land...

FYI - I have met many many fibsters - and know them as more than online personas....and some of the history of current situations is not just about online drama, but real life events.

[pck]

What someone says on a website, is completely irrelevant to the real life of the person they 'flame' unless the person on the receiving end, makes it relevant.
[...]
It's words on a screen, they disappear.

You are the first writer I have known to downplay the importance of language.

I think you're confusing the difference between saying "i'll punch you in the face" and actually doing it with the difference between saying "i'll insult you" and actually doing it. The former involves acts of a different kind, the latter doesn't. "I'll insult you" is already an insult, showing disrespect for the person so addressed. And that insult is very real. The use of words is a very important part of real life. Just because you can't give someone a shiner with a word, it doesn't mean that an act of speech carries no force.

The distinction between "real life" and the online world doesn't apply to language in the same way it does to other actions. Spoken words "disappear" even faster than words on a screen, but nobody would suggest on that ground that spoken words do not matter, or that it is only the addressee's reaction which makes them "relevant". Being affected by words is not a voluntary action on the part of the listener. Which is not to say that the listener is not responsible for his reactions. However, saying "it's just words" is an oversimplification which doesn't do the problem justice.

On your blog you elaborate on the issue of self-portrayal. I think this is much more to the point. How well you know someone you're talking to is much more relevant to the importance the conversation has for you than the question whether it is happening online or "irl".

All I am saying, is that it's rude to tell people what they can and can't talk about, and if you don't do it in real life when you are out, don't do it online.  

I agree completely, noting at the same time that at least some things other people say online seem to bug you notwithstanding.

[inim]

In several postings in this thread I've been accused of favoritism, undue prividledges and power abuse. Let me set a few things straight.

The two inims:
To most users, fibs is a "magic" service they passively use. I am a professional software engineer and I can not dumb myself down, having taken the red pill I see the "fibs matrix". This means fibs to me is not only shout and playing, it is also the software and hardware, the public interfaces and the client and bot software which uses these interfaces. I have been working with this technology for many years and hopefully improved fibs, some of it visible to all, some of it not.

There also is the user inim. People forget that I am here to play backgammon and socialize just as well. That is the problem of "two hats". Separating the two inims is not always easy - including for myself. I try to do this by restraining myself in many ways, e.g. intentionally do not automate some things which would make fibs even more transparent for me. I do not circumvent Patti's rules, such as timeouts, despite the fact it is technically a no-brainer. I eat my own dog-food, and I accept Patti's decisions even when I may disagree.

The uncomfortable position this leaves me in is that I can "do magic" by simply coding against public fibs interfaces open to everybody, but at the same time are not in any official "admin" role which protects me from attacks. On the contrary, the exposed positon at times makes me a lightening rod for all sort of problems. But note: This is nothing I am granted by Patti, this is the result of skills and work invested. Some users perceive that as threatening, which may be a form of envy or not. I can assure you Patti minimizes contact with whatever software I may provide to users or deploy on FIBS. I only use the same public interfaces everybody else could use. There is no conspiracy or secret backdoors. There is only a meanwhile rather experienced software enineer and his wish to keep fibs competitive as compared to other free BG servers, by sinking private time and money.

Proxy attacks:
I want to give an example where drama comes from confusing "inim the engineer" and "inim the user". "Inim only uses RepBot for spying", "Inim makes the GammonBots cheat on selected players", "JavaFIBS crashed my computer", "I won't use services hosted by Inim because that allows him to intrude my local machine". All the same thing, proxy attacks. Most of them are easy to debunk with technical arguments, which is what I do when I see such claims. But people seem not to want to hear that. They prefer superstition and the easy availability of cheap attacks - and they repeat them despite the debunking. And this repetition is what I percieve as personal attacks and creating targeted drama.

Conspiracy theories regarding the dice generator didn't die out in 18 years, despite massive mathematical evidence and very transparent data made available to the public. Thus I have little hope this sort of attack will ever die out.  If you suspect me of technical abuse, please tell Patti and she can use her non-neglectable skill to silently monitor the suspect behaviour. Making a lot of drama in shout about it doesn't solve the problem, it is just that - drama. And yes, it may just be another conspiracy between Patti and me that she despite her engineering know-how sees things not the way you do. That's the beauty of conspiracy theories, they are self-propelled. But then, you may be simply wrong and paranoid ...

Engineering and communication:
Working on fibs software requires talking to other people in the fibs development scene, which of course includes Patti. It may be a bug I find, it may be advice or opinion I need, it may be some server side tweak which saves a lot of unnecessary work, or observations on new user or software behaviour exposed as result to technical changes. Sharing this with other engineers is not conspiracy, it is normal work. After Burper, Avik, Maareyes and Cthulhu for all practical purposes abandoned their fibs software contribution I have picked up some of the orphaned projects. This lead to a quasi-monopoly in fibs client coding for some period, which now fortunately seems to be over after Tom and the mobile clients joined the "fibs coder scene" recently. More diversity here helps not only to lower each individual's workload, it also prevents undue monopolization. And of course your contribution is welcome as well ...

Conclusion:
So please, people, separate cleanly between the "user inim" who loves to do political shouts at times you may not like, and the "contributor inim" from whose work and money you all benefit. Don't monger fear of abuse and don't do proxy attacks. Patti can well control me on the technical side, her stick is decisively longer than mine. You do not even need to trust me, you only need to trust Patti's ability to constrain and monitor me. And if you dislike what i shout as a normal user, just gag me like anybody else. And in case you didn't notice, i am a human too, with flaws. I am grumpy and arrogant at times, for reasons you may not know - such as being the umptieth user asking the same question, or simply real life. But whoever is without similar flaws, please throw the first stone.

Thx for listening.

[inim]

Oh, and as for inim, I've told him to stfu several times although I respect and admire him for some things, I hate when he rants abuse at my country, shouts news items I didn't come to Fibs to hear, political debate items, and that goes for anyone since he's not quite alone in that arena.  I have desisted in that practice in the future.  (Come to think of it, I don't recall him ever doing any of those things when Patti is present.)  

The way to personalize and sanitize your view on fibs is gag and the villains/friends list. Adding more fine grained filters to fibs clients is the way to go here. Bullying and "STFU-ing" people is not. With my engineering hat I may add that adding better client-side filters to JavaFIBS is high on my TODO. This technical feature should allow to take a lot of drama out of shout, by simply giving users more choices than the very limited villains list offers. It also could help with other "personalized view" issues, such as the perceived "bot invasion display clutter" issue and "Odesys auto-villain-list" feature requests. Technologically all the same thing.

Inim seems to be very happy about the new stricter Fibs policy.  I, on the other hand, find Fibs to be far more boring than in the past.  

Please don't put words into my mouth. We all know what Patti does to people telling her how to run her server, and that would include me if I actually did what you imply. While I am useful as your bogeyman, I can not create a "new, stricter fibs policy". Only Admin can, and obviously does. Sharing Patti's position does neither imply conspiracy nor mind control. Just that I agree with something sombebody else does.

I told you in private tell already (yes, I also do most of my fibs interaction outside shout), but I repeat it publicly. Ending the massive drama and bullying created a void, which will be filled with new personas. People who were disgusted by "old shout" excesses will come back, and completely new characters will add new aspects and topics to shout. Just give it a little time - and room. Good old principle of "horror vacui" applies here as well.

[socksey]

The way to personalize and sanitize your view on fibs is gag and the villains/friends list. Adding more fine grained filters to fibs clients is the way to go here. Bullying and "STFU-ing" people is not. With my engineering hat I may add that adding better client-side filters to JavaFIBS is high on my TODO. This technical feature should allow to take a lot of drama out of shout, by simply giving users more choices than the very limited villains list offers. It also could help with other "personalized view" issues, such as the perceived "bot invasion display clutter" issue and "Odesys auto-villain-list" feature requests. Technologically all the same thing.

Please don't put words into my mouth. We all know what Patti does to people telling her how to run her server, and that would include me if I actually did what you imply. While I am useful as your bogeyman, I can not create a "new, stricter fibs policy". Only Admin can, and obviously does. Sharing Patti's position does neither imply conspiracy nor mind control. Just that I agree with something sombebody else does.

I did not put words in your mouth, sir, nor did i imply conspiracy/mind control.  I simply implied that you do agree with the stricter policy.     Please do not put words in MY mouth.  tyvm.

I told you in private tell already (yes, I also do most of my fibs interaction outside shout), but I repeat it publicly. Ending the massive drama and bullying created a void, which will be filled with new personas. People who were disgusted by "old shout" excesses will come back, and completely new characters will add new aspects and topics to shout. Just give it a little time - and room. Good old principle of "horror vacui" applies here as well.

Yes, you did tell me all that.     I still like all the old abusers who contribute much to Fibs shouts as well.  I think you can use gag just as well as I or anyone else and that shouts should be a free speech area.  However, I also think Patti certainly has earned the right to run Fibs as she sees fit, and I will respect that.

socksey



Everything has its wonders, even darkness and silence, and I learn, whatever state I may be in, therein to be content. - Helen Keller

[PersianLord]

I wonder whether punishing anti-Semitic rants is included in the new correctional bid that has gained her Royal Assent or not?!

[Patti]

It's not your job to punish people for rants.

[Patti]

By the way, some people have complained that this is going to make FIBS no fun for them.

For that I'm truly sorry.  To be precise, I'm sorry that you are unable to enjoy FIBS without spewing vitriol and hatred, bullying other players, and generally making FIBS an unpleasant place for many.  If taking away your "right" to abuse other players means that you can't enjoy FIBS, then by all means go elsewhere.

[PersianLord]

I didn't say it's my job. I just asked is it included in the 'new stricter policy' package that the people are talking about here or not.

Sometimes taking the cotton out of your ears and putting it into your mouth will definitely help you towards fulfilling your stewardship commitments regarding FIBS.

[Patti]

I'm sorry PL, I didn't mean to be unclear.

Yes, it is included because it's not your job to punish people for rants.

[PersianLord]

Yes, it is included

Good.

because it's not your job to punish people for rants.

I didn't ask 'why'. Thanks for your eloquent elaboration though.

PL

[Tanika]

This discussion makes for interesting reading material, and at times a giggle... but will it change anything? I doubt it

[Patti]

You can bet your sweet ass that it's going to change something.  I'll pull the plug on FIBS before I'll let it keep up the way it's been going recently.

[diane]

 

And I already ran into one person lost many years ago to fibs 'drama', who came back to see if it is better...having had a very positive first toe in the water...they stated they very well might become a regular again!

[garp_02]

If I may just add my comments.

I applaud Patti for her stance on this issue.

When I joined this site, I joined to play backgammon in a friendly environment. I'm not really that interested in chatting in the lobby, or shouts, as they seem to be called, but when I did venture in, it was not a friendly place at all. Too many people with chips on their shoulders and needing somewhere to vent their rubbish.

I think Fibs will be a much better place for newcomers to come and play BG if Patti's more stringent application of the rules takes effect.

If people want to chat, let them chat. If they want to be seen to chat and have their opinions seen in public, let them go to a chat site to spout their vitriole. To me, this is a backgammon site - and a very good one.

Power to Patti

[PersianLord]

If I may just add my comments.

I applaud Patti for her stance on this issue.

When I joined this site, I joined to play backgammon in a friendly environment. I'm not really that interested in chatting in the lobby, or shouts, as they seem to be called, but when I did venture in, it was not a friendly place at all. Too many people with chips on their shoulders and needing somewhere to vent their rubbish.

I think Fibs will be a much better place for newcomers to come and play BG if Patti's more stringent application of the rules takes effect.

If people want to chat, let them chat. If they want to be seen to chat and have their opinions seen in public, let them go to a chat site to spout their vitriole. To me, this is a backgammon site - and a very good one.

Power to Patti

I got a suggestion for you: use the 'gag' commend and enjoy playing BG in this 'very good' server.

PL

[donzaemon]

I think Patti has been pretty good at identifying ongoing problems and addressing them.

The only current issue I see with the cleaning up of the server is that at least for one person (I'll leave the name out because that would likely cause a flurry, but if you're often on the server it should be obvious) it has somewhat created an environment where he has been using the scare as a lever to attempt to exert his own policing. From my personal experience, this is creating as much or more 'drama' than there was previously.

Another thing is that a completely free and open environment does have it's merit as well as a controlled one. Although the more thin skinned suffer at an elevated rate in an environment where there are no rules, it did seem to bring out the best in creativity and often seemed to stabilize in modes of real harmony, so the experience was not all bad without rules ...  I tended to appreciate this because it was so rare, seemed like an experiment in freedom, and the rarity therefore seemed valuable even though it was hard to bear at times. So in that sense it seems sad that fibs appears to be tightening up, but if we can get past the recent issues of people creating more drama through 'justified acts' and personal policing, it will likely be a nicer environment all together.

I do however think that the higher the level of policy you are trying to achieve, the more effort needs to be exerted to sustain it, so, If Patti experiences this in action, and finds her workload is ever increasing because of interpersonal problems, I would hope that she doesn't get overwhelmed and pull the plug, but rather realize that there is always the option that we can go back to a  'free' environment and she can step back and let everyone go nuts until it stabilizes.

Either way FIBS a nice community, with or without the drama. I see most of the issues as lying more within the individuals who use the server rather than the server policy itself, so any policy change that is not 'incentive based' seems somewhat futile in my eyes.

[Patti]

A big problem with the former wild west atmosphere is that it was extremely unwelcoming to newcomers.  I've had more than one person tell me that they left due to the abusive environment of shouts.

[diane]

Another thing is that a completely free and open environment does have it's merit as well as a controlled one. Although the more thin skinned suffer at an elevated rate in an environment where there are no rules, it did seem to bring out the best in creativity and often seemed to stabilize in modes of real harmony,

let everyone go nuts until it stabilizes.

The only 'stability' it ever had was those who could be the nastiest and most vile, and had unlimited time to sit around saying the same things over and over and over, got their own way...and anyone nice left, fairly quickly.

[PersianLord]

I think Patti has been pretty good at identifying ongoing problems and addressing them.

The only current issue I see with the cleaning up of the server is that at least for one person (I'll leave the name out because that would likely cause a flurry, but if you're often on the server it should be obvious) it has somewhat created an environment where he has been using the scare as a lever to attempt to exert his own policing. From my personal experience, this is creating as much or more 'drama' than there was previously.

Another thing is that a completely free and open environment does have it's merit as well as a controlled one. Although the more thin skinned suffer at an elevated rate in an environment where there are no rules, it did seem to bring out the best in creativity and often seemed to stabilize in modes of real harmony, so the experience was not all bad without rules ...  I tended to appreciate this because it was so rare, seemed like an experiment in freedom, and the rarity therefore seemed valuable even though it was hard to bear at times. So in that sense it seems sad that fibs appears to be tightening up, but if we can get past the recent issues of people creating more drama through 'justified acts' and personal policing, it will likely be a nicer environment all together.

I do however think that the higher the level of policy you are trying to achieve, the more effort needs to be exerted to sustain it, so, If Patti experiences this in action, and finds her workload is ever increasing because of interpersonal problems, I would hope that she doesn't get overwhelmed and pull the plug, but rather realize that there is always the option that we can go back to a  'free' environment and she can step back and let everyone go nuts until it stabilizes.

Either way FIBS a nice community, with or without the drama. I see most of the issues as lying more within the individuals who use the server rather than the server policy itself, so any policy change that is not 'incentive based' seems somewhat futile in my eyes.

Nice point, donz.

Ooga Booga,

PL

[dorbel]

The free environment does have merit as donzaemon points out. However, I think that it is necessary to distinguish between freely expressing a point of view, always good and freely saying what you like in order to hurt and upset another human being, always bad.
There are fibsters whose views and language I find repugnant, for them the gag/blind/villain options work fine. There are also fibsters who set out to annoy others, with a range of harrassment techniques that will be familiar to all. For them g/b/v doesn't work so well, because to let people attack you or others without challenging their behaviour is not tolerable. You can't allow repeated lies, slanders and distortions to circulate for example, nor can bullying go unchallenged. IRL such behaviour risks sanctions designed to protect the individual, but in their absence on fibs, shouts can be and often has been a bullies' playground.
Fibs shouts is still a place where one can express views of any colour, but the loss of the freedom to jeer at, wind up, insult and slander other users is no loss. There will be those who mourn the passing of the bear pit, but for every one who does it's my guess there will be ten who applaud its demise. I am one of them.

[jlf]

Introducing the JLF - The Justice League of Fibsters

The JLF are an international group of fibs users who have dedicated themselves to making fibs a more enjoyable place. We have existed for over one year during which we have gathered information on the troublemakers of fibs. We have evaluated shouts and interviews conducted with the victims (most of which didn't know they were being interviewed). The results give a clear, unbiased panorama of the worst offenders, regarding bullying, racism, sexism, obnoxiousness and other issues. The names on this list will come as no surprise to most.

N******
d*******
P*******
r********
v********
z********
t*******
s********
Z********
i********

There is always at least one of the JLF logged on. We will report any and all attempts at abuse to Patti.

You will not hear from us again, except in the form of affirmative action by Patti.

The offenders know why they are on the list.

It's tongue-biting time.

[dorbel]

If it is a joke, the point of it isn't clear.
If it isn't a joke then it should be removed, partly because of its anonymity, partly because it purports to speak for an unnamed group. Every other poster in this thread has the balls to add their nick to their post and speak for themselves.
Contemptible and as is probably fairly clear I hold no brief for anybody on the list.

[garp_02]

It is just this sort of thing that I think Patti is trying to get rid of.

Whilst I agree that all of JLF's list deserve some form of punishment, I disagree with people trying to take matters into their own hands.

Let Patti deal with it 

[socksey]

If it is a joke, the point of it isn't clear.

It has to be a joke!  i****** is on the list!    dorbel, diane, and I are not!  

socksey



"Habit is habit, and not to be flung out of the window by any man, but
coaxed downstairs a step at a time." - TWAIN

[PersianLord]

Introducing the JLF - The Justice League of Fibsters

The JLF are an international group of fibs users who have dedicated themselves to making fibs a more enjoyable place. We have existed for over one year during which we have gathered information on the troublemakers of fibs. We have evaluated shouts and interviews conducted with the victims (most of which didn't know they were being interviewed). The results give a clear, unbiased panorama of the worst offenders, regarding bullying, racism, sexism, obnoxiousness and other issues. The names on this list will come as no surprise to most.

N******
d*******
P*******
r********
v********
z********
t*******
s********
Z********
i********

There is always at least one of the JLF logged on. We will report any and all attempts at abuse to Patti.

You will not hear from us again, except in the form of affirmative action by Patti.

The offenders know why they are on the list.

It's tongue-biting time.

You yellow gutless worm even don't deserve a response. Show us your crooked identity and then I will consider the options on how to kick your sorry ass out of FIBS.

PL

[Patti]

Oh, look.  Multiple people are exhibiting behavior that would cost them their shouts on FIBS.

[PersianLord]

Oh, look.  Multiple people are exhibiting behavior that would cost them their shouts on FIBS.

What do you mean?

[stog]

what it means here, is that you are red-carded

[stog]

a day after..
and i have asterisked the list posted anonymously in the drama topic

several folks asked/suggested that we bin the post, remove the list etc, which immediately makes me stop/consider/ walk around etc but/and after consideration, and talks with folks, other moderators and mrs  stog's input - i have compromised as said & asterisked the list..and posts referencing it

the point of this post is to re- affirm our moderator's addage 'don't react too quickly'; we try to allow people's opinions to be voiced, so long as they are not personalised rants..

if a post is obviously hurtful and personalised etc - we bin it

if after consideration we are not sure but still think it should be out of the general view - we stick it in the limbo board..

but really this was a post where i considered that the anonymous voice should be heard, and that the 'strong' characters on the list could very well stand up for themselves, indeed often do in fibs shouts..
(even arguing as to their position on the list, almost provoking the idea of a league in my mind.    )

anyhow some legitimate comments/posts were made very soon after the list, so i decided to leave it in - in context - and PL"s red card should signal that we, here,  will not accept 'bullying' replies/posting, even in response to an anonymous post. (i will reinstate PL's member status at some point if he wants, and if he realises why i red-carded him, and understands that he must think before he types and consider the effect on other people)

i have messaged the list poster to warn them not to personalise/ make lists of names, and suggest that they do not threaten, but let Patti deal with miscreants

here is a copy of the message sent---->

this is a warning  not to personalise and  threaten -- let Patti deal with miscreants

we here on the board allowed your 'anonymous' post, but i have since asterisked the names - as it is indeed an example of the very behaviour you wish to amend in others

i and the other moderators here, will censor any future violations, and if necessary ban ISP's

How people treat you is their karma

How you react is yours

[manxcat]

For the record, I did not write those words.  I inherited them from the author of FIBS.

PersianLord, if you're looking for a language-sanitized playground then perhaps FIBS isn't the place for you.  I'm not much of an advocate for censorship, and I can guarantee you that the language police force will never exist.

It's actually easier to cast a wide net and ban a country than it is to target an individual.  It's situational, but that's generally the case.

I would be massively opposed to having a profanity filter built into FIBS... it offends my sensibilities.  If a client wanted to do that, I'd be less bothered.

just sayin' ;;-)))

[webrunner]

And I already ran into one person lost many years ago to fibs 'drama', who came back to see if it is better...having had a very positive first toe in the water...they stated they very well might become a regular again!

[diane]

just sayin' ;;-)))

It is possible to have an unfiltered, adult arena, where the language may be robust, and the topics of discussion emotional or hard going...without it becoming a personal, nasty fight.

The art of debate is to take smething abut which you are passionate, and emotional, and talk about it with somoeone who does not agree with you, with passion and emotion...and not resort to to calling each other names.

That is how it used to be done - sadly, in these 'sensationalist' times, name calling has become the norm. 

This would be a much nicer world if we could work at trying to persuade people with opposing views via open and logical debate, and if that does not work...simply accept that not everyone will agree with our most heartfelt convictions, and that does not make them a bad person. And further understand that calling them names does not further the debate, nor win them over, nor make you seem wise and wonderful.

[Patti]

Yes ManxCat.  What happened is that some people abused the open forum so badly that I could no longer provide it.  I was left with only two options, and neither of them was particularly appealing.  I opted for the less-extreme of the two.  As is often the case, a few bad apples ruined it for everyone.

I've expressed my wishes many times over the years... I want people to treat each other with courtesty on FIBS.

[NIHILIST]

Why don't you try it yourself ?

I can't recall you ever dealing with anyone in a manner other that rude, ridicule, condescension or holier-than-thou. I invite anyone to read your occasional shouts on FIBS without coming to the same conclusion.

I asked a question of you here about your special treatment of inim, and, predictably, got no answer. When I questioned you about my gagging you played it cute, answering questions with questions instead of giving a simple, one sentence direct response.

It seems pretty clear that you have become what you have beheld. If FIBS has become such a burden for you just close it down and do something you enjoy.

Bob

[dorbel]

I can't recall you ever dealing with anyone in a manner other that rude, ridicule, condescension or holier-than-thou. I invite anyone to read your occasional shouts on FIBS without coming to the same conclusion.

I have read Patti's occasional shouts on fibs, as well as numerous tells and occasional fibsboard messages. I haven't reached the same conclusion.

I have read over the last eleven years more shouts, tells and fibsboard messages from "Bob" than I care to remember. I invite anyone to draw their own conclusions as to what I think of those.

If FIBS has become such a burden for you just close it down and do something you enjoy.

Perhaps there is a way to lighten that burden without closing down fibs.

[diane]

I have read Patti's occasional shouts on fibs, as well as numerous tells and occasional fibsboard messages. I haven't reached the same conclusion.

I have read over the last eleven years more shouts, tells and fibsboard messages from "Bob" than I care to remember. I invite anyone to draw their own conclusions as to what I think of those.

Perhaps there is a way to lighten that burden without closing down fibs.

I couldn't agree more.

[socksey]

Does anyone else see the irony here?   

socksey



Before sunlight can shine through a window, the blinds must be raised. - American proverb

[NIHILIST]

The two of them are saints, never an unkind word for anyone......butter wouldn't melt in their mouths.

Bob

[KissMyAss]

Irony.

Such a beautiful thing when it's pure and unadulterated.  Priceless in it's true form.

[diane]

Does anyone else see the irony here?   

Of course...I put it there....

[diane]

The two of them are saints, never an unkind word for anyone......butter wouldn't melt in their mouths.

Bob

Thankyou, Bob

[moonshadow123]

I rarely shout on the open forum, nonetheless I welcome Patti's new MOTD, as well as the fairly clear and straightforward explanation given here of what is expected.

Why don't you try it yourself ?

I can't recall you ever dealing with anyone in a manner other that rude, ridicule, condescension or holier-than-thou. I invite anyone to read your occasional shouts on FIBS without coming to the same conclusion.

This is a demonstrably fallacious assertion in that one only need to show one instance of where Patti was not either rude, showing ridicule, being condescending or holier-than-thou to rationally dismiss and correctly regard as suspect any other claims NIHILIST may make regarding Patti, including NIHILIST's claim in this thread that Patti is not "fair"--a concept that in the absence of objective morality may logically be attributed to both Adolf Hitler and Mahatma Gandhi.

When one compares the decade plus shout record of NIHILIST with that of pattis it becomes, to put it mildly, an intellectual challenge, as the shout data for patti is dwarfed by several orders of magnitude by the data available for username NIHILIST.

What further belies NIHILISTs credibility on the right to even evaluate as to whether patti is fair or not is that in the first post in this thread, that while giving lip service by saying he has no gripe with the new MOTD as loosely summed up as "be nice" and "stop hurling insults", that he merely uses that as a pretext to be as insulting as a possible, sans the shock vulgarity permitted on the open shout forum  but which would be redacted by rule here on fibsboard, and to use inflammatory, snide, and in-your-face language that patti  "powders inim's bottom".

Tangentially, I agree and align myself with many of shouter NIHILISTs stated political views, analysis on politics, economics, social issues and global warming, but cringe in the manner in which he engages those of opposing views by pugilistic insult ,ad hominem, shock vulgarity and complete lack of graciousness.

I asked a question of you here about your special treatment of inim, and, predictably, got no answer.

This was not a question, but phrased as a belligerent accusation that assumed guilt of unspecified "special privileges" before knowing all or any of the facts of circumstances which may not even exist in the first place, which is tantamount to bullying.  In light of some of patti and inim's responses here in the thread, some explanations have been given, which once again allows the rational mind to completely reject NIHILIST's claim that he "predictably got no answer" from Patti as false.

Appended after the above and in response to:

thank u moonshadow, i didn't know how to explain my rage, but u got it just right

"Rage" is not good and neither do I wish to provoke it. Lest I be misunderstood I do believe in things like repentance, redemption and forgiveness and the NIHILIST persona of today, for one reason or another, is arguably less combative and nasty than in the past and his shouts regarding helping buy a young poor kid a bus ticket so he could travel to where a job awaited, donating computers to JT and wildthing/manxcat at personal expense are inspiring and if one is going to shout, those are certainly nice things to shout about and I for one appreciated that. 

[RickrInSF]

thank u moonshadow, i didn't know how to explain my rage, but u got it just right

[Patti]

By the way, I do not expect the cleanup process to go perfectly smoothly.  There have been repercussions on FIBS, and will be until the dust settles.  There will be people who are unhappy about this and will lash out, especially those who have been the worst offenders in the past and who aren't happy about losing their playground of vitriol.

I've already gotten a couple of complaints about shouted drama and overreaction about this-- "you said something I didn't like, let's all report it to Patti".

And yes, Bob, I did respond to you in a less-than-straightforward manner when you asked me why you'd lost your shouts.  I wanted to know whether you were aware that you'd shouted racist vitriol, or had any idea why you'd lost your shouts.

[NIHILIST]

Since I opened our conversation by asking you why I'd lost my shouts, your response here is more than a little disingenuous, but that's nothing new for you.

Bob

[sarah]

1st february

35 deaths in a bombing in moscow
32 wounded in a bombing in istambul
15 deaths in Irak
6 injured in a bombing in thailand
Bombing in Kandahar
Nice hurricane over Australia
Egypt, army shoots the crowd
...

Have a nice day with your fibs worries

[KissMyAss]

1st february

35 deaths in a bombing in moscow
32 wounded in a bombing in istambul
15 deaths in Irak
6 injured in a bombing in thailand
Bombing in Kandahar
Nice hurricane over Australia
Egypt, army shoots the crowd
...

Have a nice day with your fibs worries

Totally agree with this!!  Nicely done.   

[socksey]

Sorta puts things in perspective, huh?   

socksey



Keep adding little by little and you will soon have a big hoard. - Latin proverb

[KissMyAss]

Definitely does.    If you see this before i catch up with you socksey, i need to chat with ya.  hugs

[dorbel]

Of course we need a sense of proportion and our little doings on fibs are not in any sense important, but that doesn't mean that we should adopt an "anything goes" attitude. World peace is founded on the principal that it is correct and productive for people to speak to each other in a peaceful way, personal differences and antipathies notwithstanding. No harm in attempting to bring that about on fibs.

[diane]

Maybe we should see if Jerry Springer is up for a televised FIBs 'clear the air' session 

[KissMyAss]

Poor old Jerry.  He would need therapy halfway through the process, and the show would get cancelled!   lololol

[moonshadow123]

Maybe we should see if Jerry Springer is up for a televised FIBs 'clear the air' session 

Under the new MOTD guidelines, this would be impossible.

[KissMyAss]

Found this on a trawl through Google, and have posted it in it's entireity, but for verification, the link is in the last line of the post.  This man has got the whole thing sewn up, and he doesn't even know us!!  lol


WEIRD SCIENCE |
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SEARCH


FPD, the Flamer Personality Disorder?!!
Internet Troll as a form of mental illness
W. Beaty, 2001
I've met a certain class of people on Newsgroups and e-lists who all seem to have the same "symptoms." I am led to suspect that their type of behavior might be a form of mental illness. To discuss this, first I must define it. My list of diagnostic criteria for FPD, the FLAMER PERSONALITY DISORDER is below. (grin) Know anyone like this? It's a composite description of two real-world people I know, plus three of the worst internet trolls I've encountered, plus the "flamer" side of my own personality (yes, we all have one.) 





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WARNING: As a psychologist, the author of this page would make a good electrical engineer! This webpage is half-joking. But only half. I have no experience in psychology except as a customer of marriage councilors and as the subject of too much self-examination. On the other hand, I was much more of an idiot myself in my younger days, and it's easy to list the following symptoms when you can see every one of them from inside. (The term "flamer" is short for "flaming ass****," also called "troll" or "being a dick.") On Youtube they're called "Haters." More about me if you must know.
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FPD Symptoms:
1.Namecaller: This defines the flamer. "Flamer" means "namecaller"... -->

2. Competitive/argumentative: flamers are fighters; verbal brawlers. We greatly enjoy arguments for their own sake, and will start flamewars intentionally.... -->


3. Amoral: we think that our insults, verbal abuse, character attacks, and even death threats are perfectly acceptable behavior, once "justified"... -->


4. Vengeful: flamers believe that once an insult has been received, it becomes perfectly acceptable to return the insult, or even to embark on a longrunning insult stream... -->


5. Deceitful: we see nothing wrong with deception and distortion as long as we're not caught... -->


6. Narcisstic: we have extreme vanity, taking the form of an exquisite sensitivity to anything which even SLIGHTLY resembles an insult... -->


7. Paranoid: we flamers constantly display secretive behavior, being careful to never freely discuss personal info about our schooling, experience, everyday lives... -->


8. No self-doubt. Perfect people never monitor themselves to avoid mistakes... -->


9. Self-blind: No insight into our own flaws and foibles... -->


10. Hypocritical: totally enmeshed in a self-serving bias: "when I do something, it's a pure and justified deed, but when you do exactly the same thing, it's a shameful and disgusting PLOY." -->


11. Self-important: we have a very low opinion of others, and an exalted (if dishonest) opinion of ourselves... -->


12. Denying/projecting: We cannot see reality honestly, but must constantly manipulate it by erasing some parts and distorting others. -->


13. Pervasive, long-standing, intense symptoms -->




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"Never argue with an idiot. They will drag you down to their level, then beat you with experience." - anon

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megalothymia - the need to be seen as being superior to other people.

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Links elsewhere What Makes a Smeghead?
Typical Flamer Types
Flamer psychology
WP: Don't be a dick
Diane's 'Flame Retardant'
alt.usenet.kooks FAQ
The Lying disease
The People of the Lie
The People of the Lie (book)
'Flame' , and 'Troll'
Schopenhauer tricks
Conversational Terrorism
Handbook of Logical Fallacies
Rhetorical Strategems
Fallacies I, II, III
Links: fallacies
Propaganda Analysis
Fallacious Arguments
If I Were A Spammer (song)
Flayme
Narcissitic Personality Disorder
Kook Appriasal Test
Personality Disorders
Symptoms list
How to be PERSUASIVE
Some symptoms of BPD


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Misery of Social Life #15, "To be obliged frequently to meet in company a man who opposes every remark for the purpose of starting an argument, in which he is always more vociferous than convincing." from The Miseries of Human Life by J. Beresford, 1806

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"I have never met a man so ignorant that I couldn't learn something from him." - Galileo

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FLAMEWARS: SYNERGISTIC COMBINATIONS OF THE ABOVE:

Invariably a FPD flamer will start a flamewar. First the flamer attacks another subscriber unexpectedly. It happens because the flamer felt insulted (exquisite sensitivity to insults), but usually this insult was entirely in his/her own mind. But the flamer never considers that perhaps he made a mistake while interpreting the insult (no self-doubt), and he also sees a NEED to answer every insult with insults (vengeful, narcissistic.)


Having created a fight while blaming others for starting it, the flamer then lays into his victim, (amoral, combative), while seeing his own actions as a righteous battle against an evil enemy (projection.) If the victim seems hurt, the flamer will be disgusted by such weakness (amoral.) But if the victim responds in kind, the flamer will immediately complain bitterly about this, while steadfastly denying that the type of attacks he so hates are identical to the ones he's using himself (hypocrisy, self-serving bias.) If other subscribers object, the flamer ignores them as beneath contempt (egotistical), or because he KNOWS they must be wrong without even listening to their reasoning (no self-doubt.) Or perhaps he ignores them because he is certain that they have hidden agendas, and their complaints could only be false constructs meant to mislead. (denial/projection.)


The FPD flamer typically ignores a moderator and refuses to alter his behavior, and can only be stopped by ejection from the forum. Sometimes flamers attack the moderator in order to get ejected (and therefore feel smug righteousness at being "censored" or "martyred.") A flamer will occasionally be shocked by being banned from a forum, and actually reconsider his behavior. But this is rare. Usually they're too far gone for this to penetrate their immense psychological defenses. They will refuse all responsibility for the problem (deceit, denial), blame it on the moderator or on the group for conspiring against them in private (paranoia), and totally refuse to look at their own mistakes in an honest light (denial, deceit, self-blind.)


Heh. Don't you just LOVE encountering a full-blown FPD-type flamer?




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"If only there were evil people somewhere insidiously committing evil deeds and it were necessary only to separate them from the rest of us and destroy them. But the line dividing good and evil cuts through the heart of every human being. And who is willing to destroy a piece of his own heart." -Aleksandr Solzhenitsyn

"Put an end once and for all to this discussion of what a good person should be, and be one."
- Marcus Aurelius


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Nobody is worthless: they can always serve as a bad example! If you hate flamers, don't attack them. Instead, try to stay painfully aware of the "flamer side" of your own personality, and don't ever act that way. If you think you HAVE no Flamer within yourself, then you'd better be Ghandi, because if you're not, then you've got a very serious case of self-blindness. You might be 100% flamer without knowing it! Does this scare you? It should. It's no joke.


Below is some REAL info. A note about the following. A personality disorder must "lead to distress or impairment", but many flamers seem well adapted to modern life. Instead it is EVERYONE AROUND THEM who becomes distressed or impaired. They're like a happy and well-adjusted tumor exuding poison that kills the body. Another note: much of the above I lifted from Peck's People of the Lie In other words, the flamer is the "online persona" of one of Dr. Peck's examples of human evil. Some flamers might not be evil so much as sick; suffering from Borderline Personality Disorder (BPD)


And most important: have some compassion. Mental illness is a true illness, so don't take these attacks so personally. In some cases, Personality Disorders are created by extremely cruel childhood mental abuse which victims received from parents who themselves had a disorder. Emotional child abuse leaves no physical trace, so it probably occurs far more often than anyone realizes. Don't fight with the sick person, but also think twice about welcoming them into your home (or your forum.)


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Personality Disorders: general
The definition of "personality disorder" from the APA's DSM-IV manual: "an enduring pattern of inner experience and behavior that deviates markedly from the expectation of the individual's culture, is pervasive and inflexible, has an onset in adolescence or early adulthood, is stable over time, and leads to distress or impairment."

Dr. S. Vaknin gives this list of common features of all Personality Disorders



Self-centeredness that manifests itself through a me-first, self-preoccupied attitude .
Lack of individual accountability that results in a victim mentality and blaming others, society and the universe for their problems
Lack of perspective-taking and empathy
Manipulative and exploitative behavior
Unhappiness, suffering from depression and other mood and anxiety disorders
Vulnerability to other mental disorders, such as obsessive-compulsive tendencies and panic attacks
Distorted or superficial understanding of self and others' perceptions, being unable to see his or her objectionable, unacceptable, disagreeable, or self-destructive behaviors or the issues that may have contributed to the personality disorder
Socially maladaptive, changing the rules of the game, introducing new variables, or otherwise influencing the external world to conform to their own needs
No hallucinations, delusions or thought disorders (except for the brief psychotic episodes of Borderline Personality Disorder)

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"To do evil, a human being must first of all believe that what he is doing is good"
- Alexander I. Solzhenitsyn

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SOME BOOKS ABOUT THIS PROBLEM:
People of the Lie: The Hope for Healing Human Evil (I highly recommend this one.)
Emotional Vampires: Dealing With People Who Drain You Dry
'Controlling' People: recognizing, understanding, dealing with
Gentle art of verbal self defense
In Sheep's Clothing (dealing w/manipulative people) the covert-agressive personality type
Malignant Self-love
   






http://amasci.com/weird/flamer.html
Created and maintained by Bill Beaty. Mail me at: .