Fairness

[manxcat]

Patti has told me she believes she is fair.
That she treats everyone equally.
I have told her I do not think so.

I know it will not change anything.
And I know Patti will not believe the results if they are negative.

I also know that simply because a majority believes something it does not mean that it is true.

If you think Patti is unfair, you will obviously not comment,    for fear of losing shout or even FIBS access, but
A poll is anonymous.

Nevertheless, I am curious; aren't you?

[diane]

Although it removes the anonymity..here goes...I think she has higher expectations of some than others.  If someone is clearly not capable of doing something, they dont have to do it, whereas the capable person will.

That may well be truly fair...but it sure dont feel it smetimes..

The true test of 'capability' is...watch how they change when Patti logs in...the logs are there..watch the shout pattern. When she is physically logged in, they are sweetness and light..'it' starts again before the door is even shut behind her. 

The ones who cant do that while Patti is actualy present are the ones who are less capable maybe....

[manxcat]

Thank you, not the least for your courage.

[socksey]

Patti has told me she believes she is fair.
That she treats everyone equally.
I have told her I do not think so.

I know it will not change anything.
And I know Patti will not believe the results if they are negative.

I also know that simply because a majority believes something it does not mean that it is true.

If you think Patti is unfair, you will obviously not comment,    for fear of losing shout or even FIBS access, but
A poll is anonymous.

Nevertheless, I am curious; aren't you?

Curiosity killed the cat!   

Sorry, couldn't resist that one!   

socksey



In the hour of adversity be not without hope For crystal rain falls from black clouds. - Persian poem

[moonshadow123]

Fairness, like beauty, is in the eye of the beholder--its highly subjective, which is why I voted last week in the 'sometimes' category.

I enjoy playing backgammon on the server, I rarely shout and I have never had any interaction with patti so its difficult for me to even make a "fair" assessment as to whether I think patti "fair" in how she treats people.

I do think its a bit over the top and  completely unfounded for manxcat to say those who think patti unfair will lose their shouts or get banned from the server.

[inim]

I think manx's posting confuses the terms "equally" and "fair". We are not all equal, no two humans have the same set of skills, attitude and behaviour. The results of this fallacy is apparent in the late communist regimes.

Fairness is another cup of tea. It means the same behaviour will result in the same sanctions. I think this is true for Patti's behaviour toward different users.

I often hear I had "impunity", which is certainly not the case. The dice gods know that i get my reprimands just as well somtimes. But if you look closer, you find that I play by the rules and follow orders. And that I do not seek public drama when I disagree with decisions. And I do honestly think that everybody who does similar gets the same fair treatment and protection from those who feel they should resort to lynchmob justice rather than accepting Patti's monopoly on violence on fibs.

As for individual cases, fibs has common law, i.e. is case / precedent based. Another factor is that fibs can not be monitored 24/7. So some people get away with undue behaviour because Patti never sees the case. That doesn't mean she is unfair. It just means she has a life outside fibs.

[socksey]

I'm sorry to say this, kitty, but I see this poll as an aggressive move that is out of line.     I haven't voted in the poll and I won't.     IMHO, it is senseless.   

I'm not always happy with everything that goes on at Fibs, but I love it just the same and always have since the day I was born there 12 years ago.     It makes me very unhappy to think that it could be shut down because of senseless actions of others.   

Patti is the administrator of Fibs.  She does not own it, but she has been placed in charge by her own agreement and keeps Fibs running on her own servers, (don't know this for fact, but by Fibs impression) and has been doing so for years before you arrived on the scene (for sure), manx.  If you are not appreciative enough to see that and respect it without the drama, then you are free to leave just like anyone else.   

It's not about what you think or what I think or what any of us think.  If you like Fibs, stay.     If you don't, leave.     Or, you could start your own backgammon site.

Inim makes good points and I agree with him on this.  Eeeeeeeeks!  Did I really say that!?   

socksey



Sometimes it is necessary to reteach a thing its loveliness........until it flowers again from within........ - Galway Kinnell

[moonshadow123]

I would rather err on the side of caution than rush to hasty conclusions, but its now apparent, after reading the exchange between patti and manxcat in the  Personal Responsibility thread, where patti very simply explains the new FIBS policy of "be nice" and "don't hurl insults" as stated in the new MOTD, that this poll is not what it seems.  This was confirmed by the increasingly inflammatory language manxcat used to insult, deprecate and belittle patti, once her appeal to have her shout ban lifted failed.

If manxcat had not been shout banned, there would be no poll and all this talk of "fairness" would be a moot point. Upon reflection, I should not have voted.

It was perhaps unfortunate that manxcat aka wildthing was shout banned, because she is not an obnoxious shout bully and for the most part only engages in harmless badinage. However, Manxcat mistakenly argues that under the old so called rules one gets a second chance or warning before being summarily shout banned and thus is unfair.

Notwithstanding the fact that patti is now actually going to enforce 'being nice', Manxcat's argument has a fatal flaw in that when a police officer is standing right in front of you and gives you a direct order to do something, you don't figuratively spit in the officer's face when he is standing in front of you and ignore what he told you to do.

It doesn't matter if you didn't understand the police officer or not, if you don't comply you get arrested. And if you get detained, you don't turn around and spit in the officer's face again, or you will go to jail for sure, whereas if you apologize and acknowledge you were wrong, the officer might take the handcuffs off and let you go.

But manxcat, since you want the discussion to be public, I'll tell you the same thing publicly that I did privately.  When you're ready to take responsibility for your behavior, you can have your shouts back.  That includes understanding that you did indeed hurl an insult and contribute to the vitriol.

Despite manxcat's inflammatory rhetoric toward "oh, you are the queen" patti and the childish accusation that "I used to respect you, but I don't anymore", along with the fear mongering--if you disagree you will of course be shout and isp banned-- patti has apparently tacitly allowed manxcat to shout to her hearts content.

Though username wildthing was shout banned, manxcat and anhinga were blithely shouting away right under pattis nose immediately thereafter and didn't get zapped.

Perhaps patti is not quite the ogre portrayed by manxcat aka wildthing aka anhinga aka  what can arguably be described as an ingrate.

And if ingrates don't like it then, as socksey as put it, they can leave.

I, on the other hand, am grateful for what FIBs has to offer which is, incidentally, a place to play backgammon with people, and I like the new MOTD and am pleased patti intends to enforce it.

[manxcat]

moonshadow you are simply getting even with me because i stopped talking to you because of your rudeness to me.
as any anyone will plainly see this is a personal attack on me.
you are a vengeful person, and i think your supposed Christianity needs reviewing.
AND btw, although i knew i could shout in parlorplay and as my other nicks, i did not for about a week, not right away. 
I also said what i had to say and then stopped posting.

[Patti]

As opposed to the personal attack on me in posting the poll?

Seriously, it's obvious that this poll is a vendetta, and/or a way of venting frustration over having been busted.

It's also obvious to me that it's a fairly silly poll, since people don't see 99% of what I do in keeping FIBS running.  I mean yeah, you can vote on it all you want to, but is anyone really going to take it seriously?  It would be like a bunch of FIBS users voting on whether the HR department at my company was fair.  Sure, they can form opinions, but those opinions can't be grounded in facts or reality.

The bottom line is this:  I try my best to treat everyone fairly until they have caused problems for me.  Once I've had to deal with someone causing trouble on FIBS, they're going to subjected to increased scrutiny and above all, less tolerance of additional misbehavior.

[manxcat]

no Patti, as many people have stated to me privately,  and others to everyone in shout, they do not think you are fair, so i was simply curious. and i also stated at the beginning:

quote I also know that simply because a majority believes something it does not mean that it is true. end quote

I do think your keeping WildThing gagged for over 2 weeks, after my telling you numerous times both on fibs in tell, and on your post that I am responsible for myself, is unfair and excessive.  There have been many who have done much worse, who have never been gagged, and others who have been released from that gagging in much shorter order.  Talk about vendettas!!!  Even if mine were, what possible effect could it have on you?  Whereas yours definitely does have an effect.

Many people have also disagreed with me, and I have not argued with them.  Everyone HERE is entitled to their opinions.   

[Patti]

Do you really feel like you have enough information to draw that conclusion?  You probably see maybe 1% of what I do.

At this point, I'm waiting for you to admit that you insulted someone and that you made a mistake, without trying to justify it by claiming you were defending yourself.  I don't believe you've ever reversed your claim that you didn't insult anyone... that's not taking responsibility for your actions.

[manxcat]

Patti you asked why people stay if they don't like FIBS. 

Well I and most others do like FIBS.  For play and socializing it is the best around.

What we don't like is the uneven, heavyhanded, and favoritist treatment of people. 

But most others are afraid you will either ban them or shut it down. 

People keep saying you don't own FIBS, that you simply provide the servers, but you  run it as if you own it. 

I do not know how you got to be the owner of FIBS, and I am deliberately using owner, because that is how you run it.  YOURS are the only opinions used in punishing people, in setting policy and in deciding what guidelines and filters regarding points removed and time frames for bot dropping etc.

In the U.S we are not only allowed to express our opinions, we have a mandate to do something when we think it is going in the wrong direction.  At least in the U.S., I get to vote.  And if I don't like what my reps do, I get to vote them out. 

At FIBS we do not only not get to vote for a change in representation, we are not allowed to express our opinions, without reprisal.

It is said you do it out of the goodness of your heart, at your own expense.  Know this, 3 years ago I was getting ready to send a donation, and you acted unfairly towards several people, so I did not.  I think more people would contribute if the rules were applied evenly, dare I say it...fairly, and where there was some sort of democratic process.

I do not want to see FIBS closed down.  I would like to see a committee running it, with differing opinions and friendships.  I would willingly pay a fee for that site, as I am sure most others would. 

At isc.ro there are voluntary helpers, who assist newbies.  There were several who mostly responded with smartass and insulting comments to the questioners, including insulting an obvious foreigners' lack of familiarity with English.  These questions and coments are posted into the lobby.  When I said that one was being rude and unhelpful, my shouts were shut off.  I immediately wrote the OWNERS, who restored my shouts within 24 hours, and obviously had a chat with that *helper* and the others like her, as their behaviors either changed, or they disappeared.  There was redress.  At FIBS there is none beyond you. 

As to those of you who think my posts will make Patti shut FIBS down, that would certainly  be a lot of power for me, and that most certainly does not exist.

Like with the U.S., I am grateful to live here, and be able to play on FIBS.  I have expressed that a number of times to Patti in shout, tell, message and even in an email.

But that does not mean I have to be fawning and grateful for what I see as unfair.  Or does it here at FIBS?  A lot of you lately seem to think so by your shouts. 

[manxcat]

Not only did I admit it, I apologized for it.

[diane]

www.isc.ro des wrk as you describe, and is overall - in all my experience with it, a wonderful site to be on.  There is no rudeness, and any disconnections/drops are dealt with promptly.  Many fibsters not used to controlling their own behaviour do not make the crossing well, and rapidly find themselves silenced or banned.

Would it work at fibs...well I am not so sure.

There have been numerous attempts at organising team tournaments, run by a variety of different groups of people.  Some were run by known good guys...some by those with a completely different reputation, and considered as thick skinned as they come - and some by characters who were pretty much unknown.  In each case, a set of rules and behaviour codes were AGREED upon before hand.

In every case, the bickering rapidly escalates, those who you would think were sensible turn out not to be at all...and everyone turns on everyone until the leagues fall apart.

The two big team leagues had major casualties...and some ordinary players who were never quite the same trusting optimistic indivduals they were before.

I dont know whether it is the game of backgammon itself, or the fibs environment - but I just dont see this ever running in a 'community' managed way. The two leagues which survive btw, are Tomawakys site and Donz site - both of which are run from a distance with as little hands on as possible.

[jackdaddy]

For the record...
I have expressed my opinion to Patti on more than one occasion. It was done in private, sometimes to my satisfaction, sometimes not. At no point did I ever feel intimidated, nor afraid of reprisal. While I may not agree with all of her decision, I do believe she is fair.

[RickrInSF]

for the record...
i didn't vote in this poll, i thought it also to be simply a way to vent frustration.
even when i had disagreements with patti over angelbot, i always found her "fair", even if i did not agree with her.
i don't understand why many don't understand that this is her house, if ur trashing the place, she has the right to kick you out, it is not an excuse that others are also trashing it, and if the place gets trashed enough, i would not blame her for ending the party, i would blame the people throwing garbage

[Patti]

In the U.S we are not only allowed to express our opinions, we have a mandate to do something when we think it is going in the wrong direction.  At least in the U.S., I get to vote.  And if I don't like what my reps do, I get to vote them out. 

Yes, but that only works for public officials.  In the US, I am not obligated to let you express your opinions in my living room or in my store.

In the US, you do *not* get to vote your local shopkeeper out of the store if you don't like the way he runs it.  You do have tools for punishing a shopkeeper if you don't like his behavior, though-- you can vote with your feet.  You can patronize competitors.  I do this all the time with businesses whose principles I don't like-- I don't buy anything that contains digital rights management, I don't shop at Walmart, etc.

And yes, sometimes I talk to the shopkeeper directly.  I find that expressing my opinions respectfully and politely is far more effective than calling them names.  The more I sound like an angry wingnut, the less likely I am to have my opinions heard.

In fact, people express their opinions to me every day, and make recommendations for changes.  The ones who approach me rationally and reasonably get rational responses.


Back to the poll, I suspect that peoples' perceptions of my fairness will be directly correlated with the way that they treat FIBS.

[sarah]

a lifetime occupation

[moonshadow123]

moonshadow you are simply getting even with me because i stopped talking to you because of your rudeness to me.
as any anyone will plainly see this is a personal attack on me.
you are a vengeful person, and i think your supposed Christianity needs reviewing.
AND btw, although i knew i could shout in parlorplay and as my other nicks, i did not for about a week, not right away. 
I also said what i had to say and then stopped posting.

A personal attack is committed when a person substitutes abusive remarks for evidence when attacking another person's claim or claims and this is not what I think I did when addressing manxcat's claims, especially considering the inflammatory and insulting language manxcat used on this forum to address patti previously.

Rather, it looks a bit like manxcat to some degree has unfortunately hoisted herself upon the petard of her own accusation when it comes to 'personal attacks'.

As the facts unfolded in the Personal Responsibility thread, pattis posts were direct and to the point, free of invective and emotional drama, whereas manxcat's posts were insulting and inflammatory, as well as completely missing the point patti was making and going off on tangents. And it was at that point I thought that perhaps manxcat, upon reflection, would realize that she had been a bit rude to patti in the heat of the moment and I sent a brief private message to the effect that I thought it was a bit "over the top" and I thought she should apologize to patti, regardless of whether she thought the shout ban to be fair or not.

Unfortunately, that did not go over very well.