Ban of Team-brb from Team League

[tryout]

Hi all,

Unfortunately, I'm forced to disallow Team-brb in this Team League season. For transparency I will state the reasons here.

As a replacement for don who didn't want to play in this season anymore, Team-brb came up with NIHILIST as a replacement. That is, first I learned from houtx, the team captain of Team-brb, in an informal chat, that they wanted to contact NIHILIST. After I didn't hear anything from them I only learned after inquiry last week that NIHILIST would play for them.

However, he would indeed be so cowardly and not enter with his nickname NIHILIST, but under another nickname, namely NIHolympic, which last week had a rating of 15xx and a virtually non-existing experience.

While it is not my business whether people have more than one nickname - Patti has to deal with this - I'm responsible for fair-play in TL. In case anybody is not familiar with the FIBS rating formula, this means that if you play against NIHolympic, whether you win or lose and regardless of your own rating, you'll be cheated. If you win you'd get _far_ less points than if you had played the same person but under NIHILIST with a rating of 2283.86. Equally, if you lose to NIHolympic you'd lose _far_ more points than if you had lost to NIHILIST.

It seems to me that someone who apparently cares that much about his own rating should respect the ratings of other players.

So obviously, I'm not happy with this team application. However, in order to make an effort I offered to accept the team even with this nick, but stated very clearly that I'd encourage all opponents to play this single match with another nickname. I realize that this wouldn't have been a clean solution, though.

In the chats last week with houtx it also appeared that he as the team captain hadn't even talked to NIHILIST personally yet, despite my indicating the problems.

Today I finally found an email from houtx of Sunday asking to change their team name from "Team-brb" to "Team-try_fascism_out"!  (For those Germans who aren't able to translate this well: "Team-Probier_mal_Faschismus".)

Not only is there lacking any hint of having tried to solve the nickname issue, but instead I'm presented with a provocation. Well, I'd call it abysmal impertinence.

I wish everybody else good and fair matches.

Best regards,

   tryout

P.S. Did I mention that I do this for fun, voluntarily and unpaid?

[souptree]

Am I right in my understanding that you are banning us because you don't like a name?

Abysmal impertinence, indeed, m'lord.

[tryout]

Am I right in my understanding that you are banning us because you don't like a name?

No, you're not. But you did read my entire post, didn't you?

And I've heard, that name suggestion came from you. Is that correct?

[souptree]

So obviously, I'm not happy with this team application. However, in order to make an effort I offered to accept the team even with this nick, but stated very clearly that I'd encourage all opponents to play this single match with another nickname.

Of course I read your entire post.  You state that you were going to accept the team.  What changed after that point other than the presentation of a name that you didn't like?

[NIHILIST]

I thought the idea of Team/League play was to run ongoing tournaments open to all. I appreciate that Tryout does this without pay, and would offer the comment that he's worth every penny.

His convoluted reason for disallowing a team due to the FIBS rating formula is nonsense and demonstrates that he has no knowledge how real tournaments are run.

In a real tourney, if someone enters the OPEN division, he pays his money and takes his chances. He might play Paul Magriel or he might play VegasVic. His entry fee isn't adjusted and his prize money doesn't get increased or reduced according to the difference in skill level.

I created a specific nick strictly for tourney play. If I used NIHILIST there is absolutely NO UPSIDE in terms of FIBS rating.

Since there's no prize money in this alleged tourney, and no upside in FIBS rating points, what would be my motivation to play ?

Finally, I'm not surprised that Tryout has such a keen grasp of the word FASCISM. His handling if this tourney would make his ancestors beam with joy.


NIHI

P.S. Is Tryout allowing Jews, Gypsies and other non-Aryans to enter his tourney ?

[don]

I must confess I'm a little confused about tryout's reasons for banning team-brb by whatever name they choose.  In the past, tryout has been a stickler for at least *some* of the rules of team play [http://fibsleagammon.free.fr/team.htm] if not all of them, but this is the first time I've seen him enforce rules that don't exist.  Where are his rules about player IDs and team names?  As nearly as I can tell, houtx and team-brb have followed the rules listed by tryout.  Not all teams do.

As for multi-IDs on FIBS (and in team-league play), if this is a rule then tryout should enforce it equally on ALL players of ALL teams.  He's got to be kidding if he expects Patti to enforce or even care out multi-IDs as they relate to FIBS league.

Finally, I'd like to see tryout's analysis of the overall win/loss in ratings points based on the assumptions that one's opponent's ratings are inflated/valid/deflated.

Good luck to team-brb or Team-Probier_mal_Faschismus!  A rose by any other name would smell as sweet!

[PortWine]

This was fun until don showed up.

[Tomawaky]

Personnaly I can understand people who want to play tourney with another nick even if it's not my way of living.

It's true that at the beginning rating is a little cheated. But just at the beginning, with experience growing and rating getting bigger, there will not be any more trouble.

The only point that can be discussed is : It is correct that people can have more than one nickname to log on Fibs !

One more time, if there is no abuse and NIHILIST don't try to hide himself behind his new nick, he just want to play tourney with one nick and other matchs with another. I said why not !

[webrunner]

Personnaly I can understand people who want to play tourney with another nick even if it's not my way of living.

It's true that at the beginning rating is a little cheated. But just at the beginning, with experience growing and rating getting bigger, there will not be any more trouble.

The only point that can be discussed is : It is correct that people can have more than one nickname to log on Fibs !

One more time, if there is no abuse and NIHILIST don't try to hide himself behind his new nick, he just want to play tourney with one nick and other matchs with another. I said why not !

NIHI, take a look at this post from Tomawaky.
It is making the same point as your post or at least aming the same goal, only without calling someone a facsist.

We should be more carefull to call eachother names. AS good discussion is the intelligent way of solving stuff like this, not mud throwing (i have learned that the hard way )

But i have to agree that banning the whole team alltogether wasn't in the spirit of Fibs and seems a bit overreacted.

[diane]

Whatever the ins and outs of the nick issue, the simple fact is you insulted tryout - deliberately. No attempt whatsoever towards resolution, just an attack.  Nihilst wrote somewhere of others - 'they are free to pick up their toys and go home anytime'.  You insulted him, he picked up his toys and said you cant play - be a grown up and accept it.

But i have to agree that banning the whole team alltogether wasn't in the spirit of Fibs and seems a bit overreacted.

There was no indication that this name was a joke, and that they intended to actually play under another name - so why should tryout go a whole season with that insult in his face??

[souptree]

the simple fact is you insulted tryout - deliberately.

What insult?

What indication has been given to you to believe it wasn't a simple political statement?  We are CONSTANTLY being accused in shout of being fascists for believing that fighting a war against terrorists is justified.  Why shouldn't we embrace the accusation?  We feel all of you should try fascism out and just see if you don't feel safer!

Some people are a bit quick on the draw in jumping to conclusions.

Certainly, NOBODY, including tryout or diane has bothered to inquire as to the intended interpretation of the chosen name.

Might I add that though it wasn't an insult directed at tryout, he's certainly proven the point, had we been making it.  Which, of course, we weren't.



We now return you to your regularly scheduled discussion of what the meaning of is is.

[klic]

souptree, while your statement may be true (of course, I'm not the person to query your intentions), the statements by NIHILIST:

finally, I'm not surprised that Tryout has such a keen grasp of the word FASCISM. His handling if this tourney would make his ancestors beam with joy.


NIHI

P.S. Is Tryout allowing Jews, Gypsies and other non-Aryans to enter his tourney ?

make this a full fledged insult, IMHO. Even though it might be induced by anger, I still think it's way too harsh. So anybody reading this post did not necessarily expect it being because of your experiences of shouts on FIBS...

Klaus

[diane]

And Houtx would do well to remember those are his ancestors too.

And when does the free speech dance start - cant wait for that one    

[souptree]

And Houtx would do well to remember those are his ancestors too.

And when does the free speech dance start - cant wait for that one  

I think we have a winner for the most condescending post of the year award.

Congrats, diane!!  We all knew you could do it.

[souptree]

the statements by NIHILIST make this a full fledged insult, IMHO.

Even IF this were true, it occurred AFTER tryout banned us arbitrarily, and without cause.

The subject of this thread is not the thread itself, though I'm sure the peanut gallery would love to make it otherwise.

[diane]

Anytime Soup    

[alef]

I believe TDs have the rarely used but totally clear "right to refuse entry". tryout was called a fascist and decided he won't allow them, fair call.

I'm very struck by how quickly harsh judgements fall on TDs by people who never run tournaments. It's not fun arbitrating which is presumably why there aren't more people don't regularly TD. The way I read the general vibe heading after all the TourneyBot hassles is that each TD can do as they please and others can choose to enter or not enter their tournaments. It's not an ideal solution, but seems the only thing viable.

[souptree]

tryout was never called a fascist.  please pay attention.

[diane]

ok, let us assume for a moment, that the name team try_facist_out was not intended as an insult, but as the other stuff you cite in your third post.  Why does you first post not explain this logically, and, i dont know, take the radical step of apologising for any offence caused - since it was, after all, unintentional?

Then the thread begins in earnest - we see nihilst flying his colours, and we see what you were about from the outset IMHO.

I am struggling with your other interpretation of the situation, and will wander off thinking you intended the insult - and perhaps even thought tryout was not smart enough to see it.

[souptree]

Why does you first post not explain this logically, and, i dont know, take the radical step of apologising for any offence caused - since it was, after all, unintentional?

Mostly because I am still waiting for tryout to respond to me.  He stated in his second post that we were NOT banned for our choice of name.  I am awaiting a response as to what we WERE banned for, if this was not the case.

Incidentally, the discussion is with tryout, not with you.  If you reread, you find:

Am I right in my understanding that you are banning us because you don't like a name?

No, you're not.

You state that you were going to accept the team.  What changed after that point other than the presentation of a name that you didn't like?

Now.  Interacting with you is certainly very exciting, diane, but I simply MUST get back to dusting my lint collection.  I will reserve my remaining comments for someone relevant to the discussion.

BTW, why would I apologize when we were the only ones wronged?  tryout could have asked if any offense was meant.  I guess he's psychic though.

[diane]

lol - of course - NOW i understand nihilists contribution......  

[souptree]

the name team try_facist_out

Incidentally, it's try_fascism_out, not try_fascist_out.  One is a sentence in standard English.  The other is a meaningless fragment.  You cognize the difference, I'm sure.

[souptree]

lol - of course - NOW i understand nihilists contribution......

1.  Who cares what you understand?

2.  NIH is a big boy and doesn't need me to speak for him.

[diane]

Incidentally, it's try_fascism_out, not try_fascist_out.

Yes - you are correct  i made a mistake , was intending to copy it directly from the first post, but the thread is too long for me to be able to go back once i started the post.  And - of course - that completely changes everything......  

But, i will keep quiet now, and allow this to continue to be as it was intended...a rational discussion between yourself and tryout with the aim of sorting out this simple misunderstanding.    

[lewscannon]

I look at this thread and see the beginnings a wonderful friendship between don and nihi. Who would have thought that it would happen in our lifetime? Also, I heartily support the banning of the team as I, for the life of me, couldn't beat souptree. I will support the further banning of other teams and players, depending on match results.

[EddieVedd]

As a proud member of the peanut gallery i have many things i'd like to say on this topic but for now will keep it brief. I think it's pretty clear what has happened here. At best, a behind the hand-schoolboy-gigglegiggle act, has offended someone. That has got your team banned. That's because this time, that someone, is the long time voluntary creator/organiser of the tourney. I suggest an apology is the only option at this stage if any of you are still keen to take part. Good luck.

[burper]

Lews, you know as well as I that "don" is just another nick that NIHILIST sometimes uses.
The online debates "between" those two in the past were staged and have fooled many people.

[tryout]

Probably I shouldn't reply at all to people who are either insulting, lying or twisting things, proving that they are not capable of participating in a discussion nor having any manners. But since there are quite some other readers interested in the facts, here we go.

Of course I read your entire post.You state that you were going to accept the team.  What changed after that point other than the presentation of a name that you didn't like?

I did also made it very clear to houtx that he should talk to his team mates, particularly NIHILIST, and try to solve the nickname issue. He promised to do so.

He sent the mail at the almost latest possible time, Sunday July 18th 23:26. There was no single word about the problems I urged him earlier to solve, not even about his failure in case he tried. The only thing I found was the request of changing the team name to something that has nothing to do with backgammon nor a friendly competition and makes no sense at all, if it's not intended as a provocation.

So, my decision of disallowing your team comes from all the things together. That mail just hit it off. I didn't see any hint of cooperation, despite my chats with houtx. If you want to play it shouldn't be me who is after you to provide the registration data, sorts out your problems and so on. And if you don't have any sense of fair-play, well, real shame.

I'll spare myself to quote the crap NIHILIST posted. Apart from his incompetence (it's absolute nonsense to compare a money tournament with a FibsLeagammon event) and ignorance (if he sees no benefit in playing in team league, why did he apply?) he's shown and proven once again another reason for disallowing him.

It's interesting that right extremists like neonazis are the very first to blame others of being that.

The next post is the best of it all. It's absolutely hilarious that don appeared in this thread! ROFLMAO :LOOOL:

the simple fact is you insulted tryout - deliberately.

What insult?

Insult or not - I used another expression - you can try twisting yourself and claiming that you never thought of anything bad. If this team name is no provocation, what then? And what has it to do with team league?

Certainly, NOBODY, including tryout or diane has bothered to inquire as to the intended interpretation of the chosen name.

Among other things there wasn't any time for this. And you nor houtx obviously didn't supply an explanation with the request.

BTW, why would I apologize when we were the only ones wronged?  tryout could have asked if any offense was meant.  I guess he's psychic though.

ROFL. OMG: "the only ones wronged"  I feel soo much sympathy! And if calling someone psychic isn't finally an insult...

Even if you really don't understand why I didn't allow your team, then please take it as a man! If you like, as a man who has been wronged.    You appear like a sobbing little whining child.  

[Kari_Grandi]

"Team-try_fascism_out"

Not the best "joke" that I've heard. As Tryout sayd in his earlier message, we do this for fun and I would certainly not accept a team or individual in my tourneys who makes fun of me or my decisions.

Kari

[diane]

lewscannon  Posted on Jul 20 2004, 02:38 PM

I will support the further banning of other teams and players, depending on match results.

I was thinking this too - do you suppose there is anyway we can get tryout banned from his own league?    

[tryout]

Personnaly I can understand people who want to play tourney with another nick even if it's not my way of living.

I'm really curious as to why you feel it should be fair to play with a nick that is 700 rating points lower.

It's true that at the beginning rating is a little cheated. But just at the beginning, with experience growing and rating getting bigger, there will not be any more trouble.

A little??? Just at the beginning??? Sorry, but this is ridiculous. Even if he won all of his matches it would take him several team league seasons to come anywhere near 2200.

Apart from that, it would've indeed been no problem if he _were_ somewhere near that other rating.

But i have to agree that banning the whole team alltogether wasn't in the spirit of Fibs and seems a bit overreacted.

Banning just one single team member isn't possible in a team event, apparently. And do you really think to have a complete understanding and knowledge of this issue to draw such a quick conclusion?

I'm very struck by how quickly harsh judgements fall on TDs by people who never run tournaments. It's not fun arbitrating which is presumably why there aren't more people don't regularly TD.

Very true. The referee is always the one blamed from all sides. Sure, that's easy.    

[tryout]

lewscannon  Posted on Jul 20 2004, 02:38 PM

I will support the further banning of other teams and players, depending on match results.

I was thinking this too - do you suppose there is anyway we can get tryout banned from his own league?  

LOL  

Maybe you should submit an application with me that I only play blindfolded, or at least against you. Application forms are to be collected at opening hours of the office and handed in handwritten, blood signed and in quadruplicate.    

[tryout]

Some interesting snippets I just got:

Information about souptree:
  Last login:  Tuesday, July 20 02:21 UTC from adsl-67-122-4-102.dsl.lsan03.pacbell.net
  Still logged in. 4 seconds idle.
  souptree is playing with cowgirl.
  Rating: 1756.03 Experience: 19102
  Email address: tryout@arrogant_swine.org

He changed it by now. Hmm, wondering whether he changed his mind or whether he was too much of a coward to leave it there.

PortWine shouts: yo yo yo fibsters!
revans waves goodbye.
revans waves goodbye again.
kid_pantyhose shouts: port--what it is...
PortWine shouts: yo kid...whatup
mamaliga waves goodbye.
mamaliga waves goodbye again.
PortWine shouts: was just on fibsboard reading nihi's rant....lotsa fun!
Christian waves goodbye.
Christian waves goodbye again.
kid_pantyhose shouts: re:?
PortWine shouts: poor vegasvic is gonna read that and say "what did i do?"
PortWine shouts: fibsleaguegammon
NIHILIST shouts: <...........bows
weaky shouts: P.S. Is Tryout allowing Jews, Gypsies and other non-Aryans to enter his tourney ? 
weaky shouts: what a make love toing bullshit
PortWine shouts: you coudl play paul bagriel or vegasvic....the obvious comparison being obvious ends of the rating scale...poor vic
PortWine shouts: opposite ends
PortWine shouts: the jews, gypsies,etc. line was going a little overboard
PortWine shouts: but funny nontheless
PortWine shouts: overboard on fibs is normally funny
NIHILIST shouts: honest question, i think he barred souptree for being jewish
PortWine shouts: how would you know souptree was jewish?
kid_pantyhose shouts: he dont look jewish...
weaky shouts: i dont know if you really believe what you are telling
PortWine shouts: did he post a picture of his foreskin on the internet
weaky shouts: lol
buffy_ shouts: Hey Iikan you invited me to this game at least finish it!!!!
NIHILIST shouts: yup, it was hanging from weakys mouth
PortWine shouts: ack
yisgav waves goodbye.
yisgav waves goodbye again.
PortWine shouts: I got a wallet made out of foreskins...you rub it and it turns into kuggage
PortWine shouts: luggage
weaky shouts: nihi... all you can do is insulting, telling lies and more bitter things
NIHILIST shouts: sorry you didnt like the post, weaky, but tryout is as much an not a nice person as you are
PortWine shouts: hello weakly and welcome to fibs
weaky shouts: but no one expects anything different from an old bitter man
NIHILIST shouts: lol
camiller waves goodbye.
PortWine shouts: I gotta admit...I am adicted as much to the drama as I am backgammon
camiller waves goodbye again.
NIHILIST shouts: yeah, im bitter cuz i got banned from a tourney that has a net worth of zero
NIHILIST shouts: can anyone do the math on GAIN/LOSS if i played him in a 7 point match ?
Slipshod drops connection.
NIHILIST shouts: my guess is id lose 7 or win 1 point
weaky shouts: comparing 1600 and 2300 rating?
NIHILIST shouts: some clients have a built in ratings estimator, mine doesnt
NIHILIST shouts: run it at different ratings
weaky shouts: btw team league is 5 pt
NIHILIST shouts: so do it at 5 points
PortWine shouts: i dont understand why you dont play as nihi
NIHILIST shouts: theres zero upside for me
weaky shouts: i only can calculate from my point of view
NIHILIST shouts: since when ios league play about fibs ratings ?
NIHILIST shouts: since when is league play about fibs ratings ?
weaky shouts: 2283: win 6.6, loss 2.54
NIHILIST shouts: versus ?
zorie shouts: Port how many bottles of wine have you had this evening?
PortWine shouts: none....yet
vegasvic shouts: then make love toing keep me out of this
PortWine shouts: hehe
weaky shouts: 1652:win 2.97, loss 5.98
rascal waves goodbye.
rascal waves goodbye again.
PortWine shouts: wondered when you would show up
weaky shouts: quite a difference
souptree shouts: I can calculate any ratings / exp combo
dapmat waves goodbye.
dapmat waves goodbye again.
NIHILIST shouts: all these TDs are much too self-important for me, i only agreed to play to rat-make love to don
souptree shouts: NIH vs. 10,000 exp / 1600 at 5ptr = 1.31 / 7.63
PortWine shouts: I am soooo self-important
NIHILIST shouts: yeah, i essentially lay 3-1
souptree shouts: you are obviously cheating for not being willing to do so.
souptree shouts: any fool knows that
NIHILIST shouts: i guess
souptree shouts: there are lots here to ask
zorie shouts: zzzzzzzzz
PortWine shouts: so if soup was banned for being a jew...are you a gypsie nihi?
souptree shouts: I think I was banned for picking a name
souptree shouts: lol
kid_pantyhose shouts: Natural amiableness is too often seen in company with sloth, with uselessness, with the vanity of fashionable life.
weaky shouts: nihi... you are very concerned about your NIHILIST account, but you dont respect when others do
PortWine shouts: team triblinka
jan_crider shouts: when others do what ?
weaky shouts: instead you accuse tryout of being a fascist
souptree shouts: and he proved the point
zorie shouts: Hey Jan
phs shouts: 1 pointer anyone?
jan_crider shouts: his explanation is nonsense
PortWine shouts: I have never heard jan speak...hey jan!
zorie shouts: lol
PortWine shouts: thought you were a bot
jan_crider shouts: I just read that, it's hillarious
zorie shouts: Jan can chat up a storm
NIHILIST shouts: lol, another fan
zorie shouts: well night night fibsters
zorie shouts: have fun!
PortWine shouts: see you in your dreams zorie
weaky shouts: tryout is a fair and honest guy
PortWine shouts: what i want to know is howe vegasvic got pulled into this
Biggles_two shouts: viagravic pulls on a lot of things
weaky shouts: but he was really pissed off by your team name... TEAM-try_fascim_out
elreysol waves goodbye.
weaky shouts: fascism
PortWine shouts: that was kinda funny
NIHILIST shouts: horseshit, hes never spoken to me and makes all these bogus conclusions
elreysol waves goodbye again.
BladeRunner shouts: fascism
PortWine shouts: fashionism
PortWine shouts: david bowie had a song called fashion
NIHILIST shouts: damned shame you nazi make love tos are so sensitive about your past
Biggles_two shouts: people with thin skin should stay off the internet
weaky shouts: this team name does not make any sense... it is only a provocation to ... i dont know
deosie waves goodbye.
deosie waves goodbye again.
BladeRunner shouts: yo biggs
PortWine shouts: I think someone should make a website listing all there wrongs and donate $2000
NIHILIST shouts: right, YOU DONT KNOW
NIHILIST shouts: its a make love toing name, you moron
Biggles_two shouts: I think the word STEAM offends me....I think team-Steam should therefore be banned
PortWine shouts: team-kiddy porn
Biggles_two shouts: team-dildonstinyweewee
THEdiceLIE shouts: teams themselves offend me
BladeRunner shouts: about 9 years ago
NIHILIST shouts: team weakysmothermake love toedstalinforfood
Biggles_two shouts: las vegas offends me, therefore vegasvic should be banned
souptree shouts: would he have been less offended by team_tryout_sucks?
Christian waves goodbye.
Christian waves goodbye again.
Biggles_two shouts: weak people also offend me, so weaky should also be banned
melpaul waves goodbye.
melpaul waves goodbye again.
weaky shouts: b2... your words make even less sense than usual
NIHILIST shouts: germns with no grasp of their contributions to the 20th century offend me, we shoulda let the russians have them
PortWine shouts: he is probably sober..that s the problem
Biggles_two shouts: give me some good ol' Port Wine
PortWine shouts: I'll give you a nice bottle with a thunderbird chaser
Biggles_two shouts: I wanna 151 chaser
souptree shouts: it's hilarious how up in arms he got just to prove the point
THEdiceLIE shouts: What's the word?
schuback waves goodbye.
schuback waves goodbye again.
Biggles_two shouts: yeah, a 4 page fibsboard post......nice going soup
THEdiceLIE shouts: Thunderbird!
NIHILIST shouts: what point did he prove ?
souptree shouts: that our name was well chosen
PortWine shouts: but why dont you want to play as nihi?
BladeRunner shouts: i used to love the Thinderbird 3
BladeRunner shouts: er... Thunderbird
NIHILIST shouts: what for ? theres zero gain in it for me
weaky shouts: it seems that you guys cant play in a fair, peaceful and honest manner
ParlorBot shouts: I think caroline died! Would someone else like to play?
PortWine shouts: its actually pronounced thunda bird
weaky shouts: bad sportsmanship... nothing else
souptree shouts: 1. we had every intention of playing in a fair, peaceful and honest manner.
Biggles_two shouts: when we beat you in a fair, peaceful honest manner weaky, you whine for days
souptree shouts: 2. play with a doll, weaky
NIHILIST shouts: i play bagolympic under a different nick, no ones said jackshit
TomnLosAngeles shouts: anyone for 3
souptree shouts: who asked you anyway?
weaky shouts: each of you guys is telling the same sh**
souptree shouts: to make love to off?
souptree shouts: I'm shocked
NIHILIST shouts: so are you
weaky shouts: insulting
PortWine shouts: I'm shocked jan crider said something in shout
weaky shouts: telling lies, but accusing other people of lying
jan_crider shouts: lol
souptree shouts: what lie did I tell?
weaky shouts: ...
PortWine shouts: jan...please talk to me so I can say it happened!
souptree shouts: tick
souptree shouts: tock
jan_crider shouts: Hello, PortWine
weaky shouts: souptree... take the word insulting
PortWine shouts: I am complete!
souptree shouts: it wasn't a lie
souptree shouts: it was an insult
NIHILIST shouts: answer his question first, weaky, what lie ?
souptree shouts: tick
souptree shouts: .
souptree shouts: .
weaky shouts: nihi, i am sure you know about your lies... b2 knows anyway
souptree shouts: .
souptree shouts: tock
PortWine shouts: I want the truth!
PortWine shouts: you can;t handle the turth!
NIHILIST shouts: i freely admit to insulting anyone who makes a complete fool of himself in a post on rgb or fibsboard
Biggles_two shouts: I've never known NIHI to ever lie
souptree shouts: weaky is impersonating our old teammate
PortWine shouts: my mistake
BladeRunner shouts: is this "ArgumentMonday'?
NIHILIST shouts: weaky nust be dons aryan son
PortWine shouts: hello and welcome to fibs bladrunner
souptree shouts: weaky, what lie did I tell?
BladeRunner shouts: thx maria
BladeRunner shouts: ..er...PW
BladeRunner shouts: ;;]
weaky shouts: nihi, you seem to be the lawyer against non-existing anti semitism
NIHILIST shouts: shalom and welcome to fibs, bladderrunner
BladeRunner shouts: yo NIHImeister
souptree shouts: weaky, what lie did I tell?
weaky shouts: that seems to be a kind of sickness in your mind
BladeRunner shouts: mybrohammisterplayssogoodisnumebronemothermake love toingsonofagunsupaerbrotha
ModestMouse waves goodbye.
ModestMouse waves goodbye again.
PortWine shouts: sometimes when i get lonely and blue I say to myself....I wish don were here.
souptree shouts: we have weaky
souptree shouts: weaky, what lie did I tell?
NIHILIST shouts: well, i leave the team and league play to all of you, youre on a much higher moral high ground than i am
Joe_Tamargo shouts: Stop picking on weaky.
acs waves goodbye.
acs waves goodbye again.
souptree shouts: PICKING ON?  That shithead just called me a liar!!!
Pebbles shouts: Anyone for a quick 3 pt'r??
souptree shouts: And I ask AGAIN: weaky, what lie did I tell?
Joe_Tamargo shouts: I wasn't watching.  What lie did you tell?
PortWine shouts: mayeb you are lieing about calling him a liar in which case you would be tellin ghte truth?
weaky shouts: souptree... your main efforts are insults... not telling lies
souptree shouts: we are waiting for weaky to reveal the reason for his unfounded accusation.
souptree shouts: you called me a liar
NIHILIST shouts: talk about protecting a rating, weaky hasnt played a rated match in weeks
souptree shouts: what lie did I tell?
souptree shouts: weaky: each of you guys is telling the same sh**.   telling lies, but accusing other people of lying
souptree shouts: what lie?
souptree shouts: weaky: each of you guys is telling the same sh**.   telling lies, but accusing other people of lying
BladeRunner shouts: what *IS* a lie?
souptree shouts: weaky: each of you guys is telling the same sh**.   telling lies, but accusing other people of lying
souptree shouts: weaky: each of you guys is telling the same sh**.   telling lies, but accusing other people of lying
souptree shouts: weaky: each of you guys is telling the same sh**.   telling lies, but accusing other people of lying
THEdiceLIE shouts: Who is roscoe anyway?
souptree shouts: weaky: each of you guys is telling the same sh**.   telling lies, but accusing other people of lying
jan_crider shouts: Incidentally, why was vegasvic mentioned in that article ?
souptree shouts: weaky: each of you guys is telling the same sh**.   telling lies, but accusing other people of lying
souptree shouts: WHAT LIE?
NIHILIST shouts: lol
PortWine shouts: poor vegas
souptree shouts: has vic ever played magriel?
NIHILIST shouts: i thought id honor vic by mentioning him in the same sentence as magriel
weaky shouts: souptree, you are repeating your question over and over and over
souptree shouts: answer it then
resh_lakish shouts: NIHI you should check out phil hendrie i think he is your type of humor, www.philhedrieshow.com
weaky shouts: you dont make much sense... but you dont read anything what i tell
souptree shouts: weaky: each of you guys is telling the same sh**.   telling lies, but accusing other people of lying
NIHILIST shouts: hes waiting for you to answer it, limpdick
BladeRunner shouts: is it Monday yet?
souptree shouts: you said it, not me
parker waves goodbye.
parker waves goodbye again.
souptree shouts: you called me a liar, and I didn't just let it slide.
souptree shouts: so make love to you.
souptree shouts: you're not worth lying to
NIHILIST shouts: you really are a wretched little punk, weaky, and well-named
souptree shouts: gollum
weaky shouts: come on... give me more insults
weaky shouts: that is what you do best
souptree shouts: weaky has now switched to his Zorba routine
weaky shouts: besides your pseudo-rating
THEdiceLIE shouts: OK you're a girlie man
souptree shouts: let us know when you think you can answer a simple question.
PortWine shouts: <---just waiting for don to show up to inject some logic into this argument
PortWine shouts: he knows everything!
NIHILIST shouts: yeah, soup, defend your pseudo-rating
souptree shouts: I keep it artificially low to sucker money play
souptree shouts: so sue me
PortWine shouts: i;ve artificially inflated my rating to 1520
BladeRunner shouts: i took 5 bucks from rash
BladeRunner shouts: er... resh
PortWine shouts: same thing
Biggles_two shouts: 'Who wants to play a Billionaire?'
Billionair waves goodbye.
Billionair waves goodbye again.
NIHILIST shouts: why is it that the eurotrash who never want to censor or ban anyone seem to be the first to do it ?
BladeRunner shouts: i used to fly at Millionair, in Teterboro NJ
MaddDogg waves goodbye.
MaddDogg waves goodbye again.
souptree shouts: well, if everyone would just be nice, there would be no reason to ban anyone
NIHILIST shouts: alef, webrunner, tryout......................
THEdiceLIE shouts: Who here is eurotrash?
BladeRunner shouts: i know a few gusy who should have a nick called EuroTrash
BladeRunner shouts: hi don
NIHILIST shouts: who was the other nazi *rick who gave me sh** over league play ?
souptree shouts: monitor?
NIHILIST shouts: ahh, cht, i almost forgot about that little twatfart
souptree shouts: is cht still around?
PortWine shouts: i think tourneybot is a fascist
CptHowdie waves goodbye.
CptHowdie waves goodbye again.
resh_lakish shouts: Patti <-----NIHILIST'S b+tch
PortWine shouts: jan_crider spoke to me!
BrizzyLions shouts: lol resh   finally something funny is said on fibs
NIHILIST shouts: shalom, resh_lakike
PortWine shouts: I am saving this log
jan_crider shouts: lol
kid_pantyhose shouts: there is a natural aristocracy among men
PortWine shouts: resh_latke with apple sauce
resh_lakish shouts: nihi does what he wants and patti looks the other way
resh_lakish shouts: he is racist
resh_lakish shouts: manipulates ratings
BladeRunner shouts: this Cohiba cigarrettes are *strong*
resh_lakish shouts: has multiple nicks
BladeRunner shouts: these...duh
resh_lakish shouts: he breaks all the rules
NIHILIST shouts: not at all, i hate bigots and kikes
THEdiceLIE shouts: He's not a racist...he hates everyone!
resh_lakish shouts: nihi the germans were just pissed with the jews because they were better germans than the germans themselves
acs waves goodbye.
acs waves goodbye again.
NIHILIST shouts: resh legitimizes anti-semitism
souptree shouts: they're better Arabs, too.
souptree shouts: wox populi
NIHILIST shouts: hitler was as dumb as weaky; if hed embraced the jews hed have kicked the worlds ass
BladeRunner shouts: Vox , port Vox
BladeRunner shouts: latin for voice
golem waves goodbye.
golem waves goodbye again.
souptree shouts: wox, referencing socksey, noun, a play on vox, the latin for voice
THEdiceLIE shouts: Wasn't Hitler jewish?
BladeRunner shouts: lol
souptree shouts:
souptree shouts: an abbreviation of socksey wocksey
socksey shouts: hey blade!  souper douper! ))
jonesyjt waves goodbye.
cowgirl shouts: hey sis!!
jonesyjt waves goodbye again.
souptree shouts: moooo
BladeRunner shouts: heya sockseXXXy ;]
socksey shouts: mooooooooosis! ))
PortWine shouts: yo silly!

[lewscannon]

Maybe you should submit an application with me that I only play blindfolded

Wait a minute. I always thought that you did play blinfolded

[tryout]

Wait a minute. I always thought that you did play blinfolded

Only against you so far. Or did I confuse that with the nose plug? Nah, I think it was the blindfold in your matches.

[alef]

There used to be tons of soap operas, but then in the 90s the trend changed to insane talk shows with families and friends fighting. I think here we're stuck in reruns of the episode "This TD wrecked my life".

[Tomawaky]

I believe TDs have the rarely used but totally clear "right to refuse entry". tryout was called a fascist and decided he won't allow them, fair call.

I'm very struck by how quickly harsh judgements fall on TDs by people who never run tournaments. It's not fun arbitrating which is presumably why there aren't more people don't regularly TD. The way I read the general vibe heading after all the TourneyBot hassles is that each TD can do as they please and others can choose to enter or not enter their tournaments. It's not an ideal solution, but seems the only thing viable.

right

[souptree]

It's interesting that right extremists like neonazis are the very first to blame others of being that.

I didn't realize you were a right extremist, tryout!

[souptree]

Email address: tryout@arrogant_swine.org

He changed it by now. Hmm, wondering whether he changed his mind or whether he was too much of a coward to leave it there.

I realized I might have overreacted, but I was wrong.

You ARE an arrogant swine.

[diane]

This is a great way to ensure you are in the next seasons league.    

[dorbel]

Every tournament or league that I have ever seen reserves the right to refuse entry to any player, without being obliged to give any reason or offer any redress. This rule appears to me to be eminently sensible. Refusing entry to NIHILIST on the grounds that he had created another nick may not be particularly fair or justified under any specific rules, but tryout is within his rights to refuse.
The invention of the name "try_fascism_out" is however particularly provocative and offensive. Souptree's cowardly assertion that this is in fact some sort of genuine political statement is patently ludicrous. It is a calculated insult.
It seems to me that to accuse somebody of being a fascist or, as NIHILIST implies in his post, a nazi and/or racist, goes far beyond acceptable standards. One can hardly be blamed if one draws the conclusion that souptree and NIHILIST are indeed, unsuitable entrants for a fun league, where the accent should be on friendly competition between players from all over the world.
I have never met tryout, but I have played him and found him to be a notably pleasant and sporting opponent.

[NIHILIST]

Just for the record, I was asked by souptree if I wanted to join Team BRB after Don left. I told him I would. The next thing, I had a login message from houtx saying tryout had some ISSUES with our team that needed to be settled before the next round of matches.

To the best of my recollection I have never spoken to tryout, never played him, etc. He never brought his concern directly to my attention, instead posting his "rationale" here using words like COWARDICE in his rant.

If he'd bothered to contact me directly and told me I couldn't use another nick I'd have withdrawn from the team and none of this would have been necessary.

NIHI

[PortWine]

I just read the log posted by tryout.  I have no dog in this fight but just wanted to comment that I am a riot!

You people are so lucky to have me.  I was laughing so hard at what I wrote that port wine came out of my nose!

PortWine  :2drunk:  

[EddieVedd]

A BEGGINERS GUIDE TO THIS IMPORTANT TOPIC Part 1

This thread has exploded with replies that have produced some vicious rock throwing. Thankfully this is an unusual event on the whole. It does however offer great insight into how things work & why problems occur. While i consider it obvious what is going on here I'm concerned that those without insight into WHO is saying WHAT and WHY will be ill-prepared to make an informed decision.

Why is this important ? Because participation is the foundation of these events. If one were to chose not to take part because of an ill-informed stance, they would miss out on the opportunities it provided them on a regular basis. To this end the following is a SUMMARY of WHAT has been said so far but more importantly WHO has said it and WHY.  I encourage experienced Leaguers to read it but expect most have already made up their mind. Without any patronising it is aimed at those new to fibs/fibsleague/fibsboard and those that join from here on ! Welcome


THE PLAYERS (in chronological order of posts). I will follow the posts from the begginging. Because it has grown long so quickly open another window that allows you to swap between this guide and the actual posts at the beggining of the thread.

[span style=\'color:green\']TRYOUT[/u][/span]

Tryout created a Team Tournament a long time ago where, currently, 13 Teams of 3 compete for fun over 2 monthly sessions, ie 6 per year.  He has run this in his own time for the benefit of others around the globe (this is an important point ! there is no hidden agenda here, it is truly gracious effort !) for a conciderable time now. He gets no reward for this other than the odd thanks from those inclined. Tryout is a longtime Fibs player with a good Fibs reputation. [Any time you are on fibs you can type "t repbot ask >players name<" for an appraisal of anyones fibs reputation]

Firstly, as organiser of the event he informs all participants via this thread of the banning of Team_brb from his tournament. He choses to offer reasons for this even though this is not required. Tounament organisers have final say. He says it's for transparency. It is difficult to find another reason.

Initially though, before this post, leading up to the deadline for registration, Tryout balked at a late player change in the team line up because he had concerns over it's equality regarding others participants. He says....

While it is not my business whether people have more than one nickname - Patti has to deal with this - I'm responsible for fair-play in TL. In case anybody is not familiar with the FIBS rating formula, this means that if you play against NIHolympic, whether you win or lose and regardless of your own rating, you'll be cheated. If you win you'd get _far_ less points than if you had played the same person but under NIHILIST with a rating of 2283.86. Equally, if you lose to NIHolympic you'd lose _far_ more points than if you had lost to NIHILIST

This is issue number one. Despite being referred to later as wrong everything he says here is true. The formula is a complex one but because he has said "if you had played the same person" all his conclusions from there are accurate. The issue becomes should a player have another Nik (login name) for Tournament play. This is a new issue. I have only seen it on one occsasion so far in a different tournament. Patti ( a person instrumental in the existence of Fibs) requests only 1 Nik per person. Presumably for memory constraints on the server (not sure). Given all the tournament play is on Fibs i feel there should be some hesitation at allowing it. She also requests no rudeness/racism which as we'll see (and has been noted before today) is very hard to enforce. So trying to enforce one of her requests for a FibsLeague Tournament is difficult at best. Tryout raised it though with concern for the other players in the Team League. This makes sense to me as the whole Team Event and its participants are his concern. However it becomes (and remains) a sub-issue ! Tryout goes on to say.....

So obviously, I'm not happy with this team application. However, in order to make an effort I offered to accept the team even with this nick, but stated very clearly that I'd encourage all opponents to play this single match with another nickname. I realize that this wouldn't have been a clean solution, though.

The sub-issue is left open for discussion. He would have allowed entry but felt it necessary to voice his concerns to other entrants for equality. Remeber ....He runs/organises the tournament month in month out and the next one is starting very soon.

THEN, some days later without any further advice from the Team captain, he gets the e-mail that is the real issue of this whole post. The Team has decided to change their Team name to "Team-try_fascism_out". Tryout is from Germany and this is known by all the other 'players' in this thread at least. Here you should decide if you think linking the organisers name with the term fascism is appropriate. Does anyone , be they from Germany or anywhere, be they the organiser or entrant deserve that ?

This is the crux of the issue and where the biggest lesson can be learnt about why things go wrong.  If this e-mail / name change had never been sent the banning would not have occured. If those that chose to do so can't accept the error here, the insult, there is nothing anyone can do to change their mind. Others though, importantly, can form their own opinion and be aware of those that consider it appropriate behaviour. To expect Tryout to just accept this and carry on regardless i believe is asking too much of even the most patient soul. So it was here that he lost patience and got on with looking after the other entrants......

I wish everybody else good and fair matches.

Best regards,

tryout

P.S. Did I mention that I do this for fun, voluntarily and unpaid?

[span style=\'color:green\']SOUPTREE[/u][/span]

Souptree is a long time player on fibs with a good rating. He plays in the League and Team League as well as the online tourneys. My experience with him has been very pleasant for a long time. He is often funny and has a good "reputation" on Fibs. His involvement in this event has surprised me and changed my opinion of him sadly. Until i see, that he see's, the insult in the Team name change.

He begins the first of many posts gingerly with a single question on technicalities.......

Am I right in my understanding that you are banning us because you don't like a name

Does he ignore the insult here because it's an innocent poitical statement ? Or is he avoiding it because he knows the truth to be indefensible?

Tryout suprisingly replies NO , when a yes would have been acceptable, but would have fuelled the fight over a technicality. More likely Tryout answered No because there were a combination of factors (including personal insult) that contributed to the decision to ban. Tryout also asks in reply......

And I've heard, that name suggestion came from you. Is that correct?

Someone came up with the idea to chose that name and send it to Tryout. This is critical to his way of thinking particularly as in this instance it is a personal attack and a 3 member TEAM has been affected. This question is never answered in any of the posts that follow !

Souptree posts again, doesn't answer Tryout's question and has another go at pinning him down on the technicality. Tryout doesn't reply (hopefully getting a good nights sleep now) and enter ..........

[span style=\'color:green\']NIHILIST[/span]

He begins with an insult to the Tournament organiser. Nihilist is a long time user of Fibs and has a high rating because of what is known as a "bottom feeding" or something like that (he has freely admitted these facts in the past). This is someone who plays 1 or 2 point games, only with low rated players, with high experience, to make use of the Fibs Rating Formula to elevate his rating. He sits on top of the fibs rating list because of his patience at doing this. He rarley if ever plays other matches. He does not compete in League or Tournament play and has a bad Fibs reputation.

All this is not illegal and is done by a few others (notably "reno" who has just sold his account on e-bay for US$32 ! here  . Interestingly Patti has since worded her message when you log into Fibs to suggest this transfer of accounts will mean a resignation and dissolution of the account! So, as this often pops up as a point of discussion on fibs, you're allowed to do this but there are few answers as to what the point of it is ? What is the point of it? You decide. It takes us back to issue number one though. Why Nihilist wanted to have another Nik for Tounament play. He does not put his skill on the line for fear of decreasing his rating with the NIHILIST Nik. Something which 99% of people who play on fibs do without a second thought. He feels so strongly about this he puts it this way......

I created a specific nick strictly for tourney play. If I used NIHILIST there is absolutely NO UPSIDE in terms of FIBS rating.

Since there's no prize money in this alleged tourney, and no upside in FIBS rating points, what would be my motivation to play ?

This is a extraordinary insight/admission as to this persons motivations. It is clear that unlike 99% of fibsters he does not play for fun and competition! Rest assured that is why the scores who play in the FibsLeague / Tournaments play, I'm sure of it. It's why I play.  Why would he play ? Why would he bother ? Given all this I'm not sure.

This i can accept without understanding...... but the insult to finish his post gives even further insight into WHO is saying WHAT and WHY you should be informed before you form an opinion either way.......

Finally, I'm not surprised that Tryout has such a keen grasp of the word FASCISM. His handling if this tourney would make his ancestors beam with joy.

NIHI

P.S. Is Tryout allowing Jews, Gypsies and other non-Aryans to enter his tourney ?

Decide for youself if these are the words of a well meaning , hard done by soul or......I mean really, to suggest Tryout has persecuted a Team at this stage because of their race, religion or that he has initiated the fight  is ?Laughable?Appalling?Racist?Rude?Worthy of banning just for that? I cant put a single word to it that does it justice ?! Remember Tryout has hosted this tourney without incident for a long time. He has created it. The rest of the participants around the world have prospered from it . He was going to allow entry even with another NIk. The insulting e-mail/name change is THEN sent to Tryout and he is the one accused of poor form ! Fascism !!  I mean Really ! But you decide.

To highlight further the way some (thankfully a tiny percentage) would divert the issues away from reason and use unfounded attacks to cover this up, I quote from Nihilist a bit earlier in his first post.......

His convoluted reason for disallowing a team due to the FIBS rating formula is nonsense and demonstrates that he has no knowledge how real tournaments are run.

Can you see the irony ?

Now it is suddenly Tryout who has banned the Team "due to" the Fibs Rating Formula !  Which happens to be the reason those who chose to "bottom feed" play on Fibs. AND the person who has chosen not to enter Tourneys since their creation on fibs, Nihilist-protecting that rating,  would have us believe the soul who has been doing it successfully for ages doesn't know how !! Amazing !! Wrong & Wrong.

We'll end Part 1 of The Begginers Guide here while you digest these points and begin to formulate your own opinion. To see if you have "a dog in this fight" ?

In finishing i leave you with a most saliet point ironically again made by Souptree posted further on in the thread.  BTW, BTW is 'by the way'   ....

BTW, why would I apologize when we were the only ones wronged? tryout could have asked if any offense was meant. I guess he's psychic though.

Those who refuse to admit a mistake will usually become defensive, demanding of others who have already given plenty, and give nothing of themselves ...continuing the trend.

Tryout could have asked ...would you ?
"Excuse me , was that meant as an insult ?"

Houtx, give us a post

The rest of you....... Peace till Part 2  

Happy rolling ..........

[souptree]

Well, at least we have all learned one important lesson from this -- EddieVedd needs a hobby.

But seriously, folks:

Tryout could have asked ...would you ?
"Excuse me , was that meant as an insult ?"

Probably, if it was coming from someone whom I had never had any reason to believe there was a conflict with.  I am STILL waiting for tryout to explain what the supposed ISSUES were, given that he was not going to disqualify us due to NIH's alternate nick, but decided to only after seeing the name, what exactly are these ISSUES that required RESOLVING?

In his original post, tryout says:

I offered to accept the team even with this nick

then goes on to state:

In the chats last week with houtx it also appeared that he as the team captain hadn't even talked to NIHILIST personally yet, despite my indicating the problems.

Today I finally found an email from houtx of Sunday asking to change their team name from "Team-brb" to "Team-try_fascism_out"!  (For those Germans who aren't able to translate this well: "Team-Probier_mal_Faschismus".)

Not only is there lacking any hint of having tried to solve the nickname issue, but instead I'm presented with a provocation. Well, I'd call it abysmal impertinence.

What problems?  What nickname issue?  It would appear tryout is employing a bit of revisionist history.

What reason would any of the three of us, let alone ALL three of us have had for insulting him prior to his, as NIH correctly observed, convoluted rant at the start of this thread?  NIHILIST claims he has never spoken to tryout, and neither have I.  No issues were brought to my attention before this thread was begun, and interestingly, none since.  I had no reason to dislike tryout or to insult him.  I am well known for making sarcastic political statements on fibs, so why this should not be accepted at face value is beyond me.

I was told we needed to pick a new player and a name by Saturday.  We did this.  Next thing you know, we're being flamed by tryout, who got it back in kind.

So, to bring this around full circle, am I correct in my understanding that you are banning us because you didn't like our choice of name?  If not, as you previously replied, what are these supposed issues that we were banned for?

Maybe tryout could post another shout transcript from weaky in lieu of reply.  That was a good one.

[diane]

So, my decision of disallowing your team comes from all the things together. That mail just hit it off.

So you are looking for yet another explanation, other than this one then? (didnt repeat the whole post - but i am sure you can refer back to it for the rest.)

[NIHILIST]

If anyone bothers to read the very first post of this novel, you will see that your TD began things with an insult directed at ME; my alleged cowardice to play using my NIHILIST nick. He set the tone for all this, not I.

Once again, if he had simply contacted me directly and stated his concern, I'd have withdrawn as I did once before in League.


NIHI

[tryout]

Thanks Eddie and all others for posting, also for those numerous emails I got!

A small correction for the record: I'm not sure who invented it, but I suppose it was cht, who ran it for 1 or 2 seasons before he couldn't continue with it.



There's really no reason in repeating myself, so I won't. Those persons who have problems reading, should go back and reread it. Or they should get someone to read it for them.

For those readers who may not be familiar with team league one small point:
Every team has a captain who is responsible for team actions and communication with me. The team captain of Team-brb was houtx.

And for setting the record straight (I leave it to anyone's opinion whether NIHILIST is lying or whether he doesn't know it better, even the easy technical bits):
After my last chat with houtx last week, where I've told him to sort things out in his team, I left a FIBS message to NIHILIST (presumably the one he is referencing) to communicate with his team captain. For some reason I wasn't sure that houtx would stand up to his promise.

[souptree]

Again, what was the issue that was unfulfilled by the team?  We found a member and chose a name by the deadline.  Was there something else we were supposed to do that I am not aware of?

I am still not sure in what regard you feel houtx and consequently our team did not fulfill the requirements.

[burper]

The TD reserves the right to ban without having to state a reason.
If you don't like it, don't enter tournies hosted by that TD.
The TD market will right itself.

Those that childishly look for loopholes into which to insert their extravagant views about fascism will have to find another place to do it I suspect.

[nilla]

I really think I didnââ,¬â,,¢t misunderstand the insult to Tryout no matter if the word was "fascism" or "fascist" as discussed earlier in this thread. I find this insult unbearable and the worst insult possible.

In this matter I canââ,¬â,,¢t see a difference between the two words and its obvious to me that they are meant as an insult...I have really tried to find another approach but I just canââ,¬â,,¢tââ,¬Â¦if not maybe some try to make fun of Tryout but in that case thatââ,¬â,,¢s really bad enough.

To even suggest such a name for a team is a very bad thing and to me an  obvious and deliberate insulting of Tryout. People might feel offended by the meaning of the name and therefore could be irritated even during the matches which could make it harder to focus on play. It's not good sportsmanship to have such a name for a team as it is obviously annoying (to express myself in a mild way) to many people.

I do believe that playing should be a nice experience to share with people from all over the world regardless of nationality, religion or colour. I also think that everyone should play with the nick they ordinarily have, itââ,¬â,,¢s a matter of respect towards the opponent. If itââ,¬â,,¢s just the points what matters why play in a tournament at all, where you cant choose your opponent by rating.

I give all my support to Tryout and his way to handle this so the matches are as fair as possible for everyone participating. To make a stand like Tryout did by banning the team is very courageous and shows that he really takes responsibility for running the team-league.

      ....for the world you are someone but for someone you are the worldââ,¬Â¦.

[dorbel]

Well said Nilla.  

[adrian]

I agree burper, and nothing more than a   for this topic.

[NIHILIST]

This is getting downright sanctimonious and laughable. Nilla's "I find this insult ( the reference to fascism ) unbearable and the worst insult possible".

THE WORST INSULT POSSIBLE ? You must be joking. Some of the same good people who find a reference to fascism in a backgammon teams name to be the most heinous kind of crime are the same folks who day after day shout worse insults at the USA and its current President.

While I suppose this is to be thought of as POLITICAL DEBATE, it's astonishing that the Euro-crowd should take such umbrage to an accurate reference of its not too distant past. If the shoe fits.............

Dorbel's self-professed repugnance at someone being called a fascist or racist is positively jaw-dropping. Where is all this indignation when I get shouted as a fascist or racist day after day ? I've certainly never seen him express it.

Get over it, people. The team whose name is the worst insult possible will never play a match. And the members of the team really don't much give a crap.


NIHI

[diane]

THE WORST INSULT POSSIBLE ? You must be joking.

And this is a man who knows his insults    

[webrunner]

Nilla is right.. there is no way to interpret that name other then as an insult. If anyone (souptree perhaps?)  knows how else this could be taken, please enlighten us!

Otherwise i think an apology is in it's place. Even being called a coward is not even half as bad as being called a facist.

[diane]

What insult?

What indication has been given to you to believe it wasn't a simple political statement?  We are CONSTANTLY being accused in shout of being fascists for believing that fighting a war against terrorists is justified.  Why shouldn't we embrace the accusation?  We feel all of you should try fascism out and just see if you don't feel safer!

Souptree has done his best here - convincing wasnt it ?  

[JLee]

Might I get a team banned for suggesting a name like try_hedonism_out?  Can I get some official guidelines as to what is acceptable and what is not acceptable?

JLee

[NIHILIST]

Thanks for clarifying. I'll be certain my future shouted insults stop short of calling anyone a Fascist, since you folks assure me that it's the worst insult possible.

Incidentally, I've always felt that word was used rather loosely, so I shout-asked if anyone could define it. No one could.

I presume you've all learned the definition so as to be properly outraged.


NIHI

[dorbel]

If NIHILIST is incapable of appreciating that his sarcastic postscript "Will tryout also ban jews, gypsies and other non-aryans?" is grossly offensive, then nothing anyone can say will help him to grasp it. Really NIHI, what possible connection is their between Germany's Nazi past and tryout rejecting your entry for a tournament? As for my not protesting against attacks on Americanx, I often do. Again, most people can differentiate between legitimate criticism of a country's foreign policy and blanket criticism of that country's citizens. For most fibsters the words International Friendship are meaningful. NIHILIST's tragedy is that he cannot even grasp the concept, much less practise it.
He is however, correct on one point. The word fascism is used far too loosely and understood by very few. Nazi Germany was not a fascist state.  

[EddieVedd]

JLee, I think the best direction is to try and avoid reference to other fibsters names (eg:try_out) but especially avoid linking it with anything that may be deemed insulting (eg: Suggesting a German National who runs the tournament is a Fascist ). If these type of combinations are avoided , so say Team_hedonism or Team_fascists, i can see no problem.  However the final say will always be in the hands of the Tournament organiser. Hope this helps.

[souptree]

1.  I'm called a nazi on fibs at least 3 times a week, sometimes by people in the team league.  Not that a single person on this thread has ever once responded to the vicious anti-American propagandists of fibs in my defense.

2.  Tryout himself referred to us as "neo-nazis" in this thread.  I suppose he will recuse himself from the team league now, no doubt.  More likely, the more holier-than-thou among you will leap to insist he was right in doing so.

3.  There was never any connection intended between the name and tryout's German citizenship.  In fact, I didn't know (or care) where he was from. To take additional umbrage at this fact is to engage in offense at a fiction.

4.  I think JLee's suggestion is a good one.  Perhaps some of the overwrought hall monitors on this thread could use their extensive luxury of free time to come up with some guidelines on this subject.

5.  I've still seen no theories on any possible motivation for 3 long standing fibs citizens to make an unprovoked attack on the league director.  Given there was no such attack, this is not terribly surprising, but I was hoping someone's creativity would allow us a possible glimpse into the presumed motivations for such an "attack".  If you think we just decided to haul off on some random German because we are racist American pig-dogs, you're just flat out wrong.  Well, except for the German pig-dog on our team, of course.  Believe it or not, not that it matters a whole lot what you believe one way or the other.

6.  While I have no interest in any apology to tryout for a personal attack which never occurred, I am willing to apologize to anyone who was offended by our mocking political statement regarding fascism.  I would cordially invite each of you to go look up sarcasm in your dictionaries, as there were no fascists or advocates of fascism on team brb nor on team try_fascism_out.

7.  It's interesting how some of you seem to leave houtx out of your condemnations, in spite of knowing him personally.  Does he strike you as an advocate of fascism?  Use your brains, people.  Why do you think he liked the name?  He must be a real self-loathing German, right?  Either that or perhaps you all think he has a shrine to Hitler in his basement too?  Or maybe you think he had some kind of bone to pick with tryout?  If any of these is the case, I am unaware of it.

Your faithful pig-dog,

[diane]

If these type of combinations are avoided , so say Team_hedonism or Team_fascists, i can see no problem.

But one would hope that in a fun league, where the emphasis is on meeting players one would normally not play - and having FUN, that the teams would choose names which are, well, to over use the word some, fun, and leave the politics behind for at least a moment.  After all, there are the shouts, day in day out for that.

And, on that note, dont see a problem with team_hedonism    

[JLee]

JLee, I think the best direction is to try and avoid reference to other fibsters names (eg:try_out) but especially avoid linking it with anything that may be deemed insulting (eg: Suggesting a German National who runs the tournament is a Fascist ). If these type of combinations are avoided , so say Team_hedonism or Team_fascists, i can see no problem.  However the final say will always be in the hands of the Tournament organiser. Hope this helps.

I am, to a certain extent, playing devil's advocate here, but I assure you will all seriousness that if anybody had just named their team "team_fascism", that there would be nearly as great an uproar.

I certainly do not condone name calling, but the whole thing was essentially started over a team name -- and I don't believe for a minute that "team_fascism" would have passed mustard.

If the TD really wants to supress that... then so be it.  I don't see the purpose.

JLee

[JLee]

And, on that note, dont see a problem with team_hedonism  

I see your smiley, but seriously... you don't see a problem, but does that mean there won't be?  Where do we draw the line?  If we're banning one name, then we better darn well have some guidelines so that I don't offend anybody.

I don't think "team_hedonism" will offend anybody, but can I be so sure?  What if I choose that team name, and the TD gets in a huff over it, and bans my team because of it?

I'll choose to keep sliding right down this slippery slope until somebody tells me where to get off... until then, I say it's wrong to ban a team or a team name just because of the name, without giving some clear guidelines as to what's acceptable and what's not, and just as importantly, to state clearly that there's some kind of code of conduct being enforced for team names.

Look, I don't think "try_fascism_out" or "team_fascism" are such great team names, but you can't enforce rules ex post facto.  That's just not fair, and you can't tell me otherwise.

JLee

[burper]

souptree, anyone who has to type so much to defend themselves, is surely guilty.

[NIHILIST]

I think Dorbel has solved it. If Nazi Germany was never Fascist, tryout has no reason to be offended, nilla can revise her thinking that being called a Fascist is the worst possible insult, and the team can play.

Incidentally, Dorbel, did the holocaust ever REALLY occur ?


NIHI

[burper]

Slavery in America never occurred either. And those whiney Native American's are all telling lies!

[NIHILIST]

Are either of those groups represented by a team in league play ?

NIHI

[burper]

Why do you ask? Do you have a point?

[alef]

I really think we need some kind of sing-along, what's something everyone knows? Beatles are a bit corny, but let's give it a try...

## In the town where i was born... there lived a man who sailed the seas
 And he told us of his life... in the land of Submarines...###

[All together now!!]

[diane]

I think we finally pushed alef over an edge .... or - wait - you arent drunk are you alef???

[burper]

Everyone knows that saying "on the internet, noone knows you're a dog"?
diane's corrolary: "on the internet, everyone thinks you're drunk".

[SubtleOne]

Frankly, I must admit to finding the endless attempts to turn the tables on Tryout, and claim he is the one out of line, to be pretty stupid.

As far as I'm concerned, the choice of names was a clear attempt at an insult, and that makes his response very clear. All the blablabla about freedom of speech and whatnot just doesn't hold. You insult the tournament director and then expect him to just swallow it whole is to be amazingly dense.  The attempts to have him look unreasonable are a complete waste of time. What do you think is going to happen? His *boss* will come and pull his ears? He does this as purely voluntary work, to allow others an enjoyable event. I don't see anyone else raising their hands to do it for him. If you insult him, you get what you deserve.

The *only*  solution isn't to argue, but to apologize, and find a different name.

As to Nihilist, if the fact that it doesn't benefit your rating (as far as I know you earn rating points with a win) wallet makes the event bereft of interest, then by all means, don't participate. Those who do are out for a friendly competition with some online players, often making friends in the process. However, I'd protest the use of a second account myself. Since otherwise you are playing under false pretenses, pretending to be something (an inexperienced and low-rated player) that you're not.

                                                             Albert

[PortWine]

Here is the way I see it (through a drunken haze):

If it is stated in fibsleagammon that all matches are to be played on FIBS (kinda inferred from the names) than it is a given that you must abide by FIBS rules as well.

If you are allowed to play your matches anywhere you want (in person, at another site, through a direct connection) than NIHI should be able to do what he wants.

If the rules do not currently speak to this issue perhaps the TD could have discretion for this tournament only, but thereafter make the rules clear.

However, I agree that the TD should have the final word.  (I am biased that way.)

Seems simple to me, but then again, I am drunk constantly and consistently!

I make no attempts to speak on the subject of who flamed who first or who is a nazi.  I am just glad that there is a "heated discussion of this type" that doesn;t involve me.

PW  :2drunk:

PS - Long live the drunken tourney!

[adrian]

Please allow me a   . Seems we needed a hot subject to talk about, again.

[NIHILIST]

Here's your song, also by the Beatles; ALL WE ARE SAYING, IS GIVE FASCISM A CHANCE

NIHI

[PortWine]

I think this quote from Ferris Bueller's Day Off sums it all up.  How cool to get a facsim quote and a Beatles quote all in the same scene.

Ferris : I do have a test today, that wasn't bullshit. It's on European socialism. I mean really, what's the point? I'm not European, I don't plan on being European, so who gives a crap if they're socialists? They could be fascist anarchists, it still wouldn't change the fact that I don't own a car.  It's not that I condone facism, or any isms for that matter. Isms in my opinion are not good. A person should not believe in an ism he should believe in himself. I quote John Lennon. "I don't believe in Beatles I just believe in me." A good point there, after all he was the walrus, I could be the walrus, I'd still have to bum rides off of people.

Just doing my part!

PW  
:2drunk:

PS - Sorry for trying to mess this up with my earlier post.  I should stop trying to think.

PPS - Long live the drunken tourney!

[souptree]

A good point there, after all he was the walrus, I could be the walrus, I'd still have to bum rides off of people.

The Walrus was Paul.

[NIHILIST]

Once more, just so everyone understands, I have NO interest in playing in a "fun" tourney where there is no upside gain.

This is separate and distinct from the team name issue which, amusing as I find it, I did not participate in.

I have no problem with a TD setting rules that disallow different nicks. I'm a big boy, I know I can play as NIHI or not at all. I chose not at all.


NIHI

[don]

I think it worthwhile to consider the original issue, as posted by tryout here.  There's too much flaming and sidetracking, and tryout's original post is still unresolved.

According to tryout, he objected to NIHILIST as my replacement on team-brb because NIHILIST was going to use a different ID for team play.  I happen to agree with tryout that multi-IDs are both against FIBS policy AND the spirit of play in general.  But I disagree with him when he chooses to enforce this policy with no warning and arbitrarilly.  There are other multi-ID users on the teams, and there is STILL no stated rule on http://fibsleagammon.free.fr/team.htm about this.

Norbert (houtx), and possibly the other members of team-brb (souptree and NIHILIST), then chose to make a statement with a choice of a new team name.  It may have been in bad taste, it may have been intended as sarcastic humor.  But once again, it doesn't run against any stated policy that tryout has ever made.  In fact, if tryout is going to ban politically sensitive names, he should take a look at his player list.

Knowing Norbert and souptree as I do, I suspect team-brb's second action WAS a comment on tryout's first arbitrary and wrong decision.  Had tryout, at that point, become fair and reasonable, the name-change could have been retracted, and there would be no reason for this thread.

Instead, tryout circled the wagons, and many of the usual suspects have joined in with their useless, inconsequential and inflammatory rhetoric.  I suggest a review of this thread, starting with tryout's original comment.  See if you think my interpretation is correct.  Separate that from my evaluation.  Then review the rest of the thread, and see who you think contributes to the conversation and who detracts.  I'm sure readers will find fault with comments I've made, but I think they will find more fault with those who either willfully or ignorantly misconstrue the original discussion.

[diane]

And once again, don spectacularly misses the point......

I suggest a review of this thread, starting with tryout's original comment.

But, that is a good idea - or perhaps Eddies post - which summed it up rather nicely, either way, those who can read will arrive at an entirely different conclusion i expect.

[don]

How did I miss a meaning, diane?  Are you disputing tryout's version of events?

1.  houtx registers NIHILIST.
2.  tryout objects to NIHILIST.
3.  houtx changes team name as sarcastic comment to tryout.

What did I miss?  I am only suggesting that these events should be viewed sequentially.  I thought it was obvious, but reviewing the last few pages of posts, and yours in particular, it's not.

So, why not deal with, first, the inclusion of NIHI, then tryout's objections, then the sarcastic change of name?  ...or am I missing something?  I'm only saying that if tryout had been consistent on the first item, you would have nothing to flame about here.

[diane]

Yup - you are missing quite a lot - go and read Eddies post - all of it.

[EddieVedd]

Sigh.....

Last summary !

1) don withdraws
2) replacement prefers to play with alternate Nik ( consider if we all chose to do this ?)
3) tryout expresses concern but is STILL willing to accept team (including alternate Nik), all be it with reservations.
4) unknown communication between team members re:Nik concerns from organiser.
5) No communication from Team back to organiser re Nik concerns.
6) e-mail sent to organiser (tryout) just before deadline advising name change to Team_try_fascism_out.
7) Then and ONLY then ------ Organiser bans Team .


Please absorb this sequence as it is crutial to this discussion and the running of future events.

Cheers.



 

[souptree]

Last summary !

Promise?

[don]

Actually Eddie, if one takes your previous lengthy analysis as gospel, you left out where tryout was going to encourage other teams to break a basic rule of FIBS, because he decided to selectively enforce it for one team, but generally ignores it.  
Of course, that's just tryout's version of the facts, filtered through you.

[don]

Now back to the basic question:

Should tryout have objected to a multi-ID user on team-BRB when he permits it on other teams?

[webrunner]

He can object to whatever he wants.
he is the TD so he calls the shots.. right?  

[don]

Absolutely correct, webrunner.  If tryout is the boss, he can do what he wants.  Except he can't try to justify himself in a public forum and expect slavish agreement.

[Hardy_whv]

Hi everyone,


I usually don't like to add anything to such discussions, which in many aspects do not reflect the spirit of FIBS. I promise, this will be my first and last post in this thread.   :agree:

My humble remarks:

1. Eddie, thanks for your precise summary! This is exactly what houtx, team captain of brb, told me few days ago, before this discussion here started. So its not only yours and tryouts view of events, but also confirmed by the team captain.

2. Tryout, thanks for organizing this great tournament. You do a great job. I just hope, you will continue doing so!

3. I'd really appreciate, if my team would not always be only 2nd winner  

And now I propose, we all shift our center of gravity back to FIBS, to PLAY there.

All the best,


Hardy

[EddieVedd]

Thanks Hardy and you're very welcome

What you say about Houtx and tryout is very encouraging as i have not spoken to either of them since before this post started.

Despite the "filtering" comment a few posts up,   ALL i have written here comes from what i have read on these these pages only.

I'll just take the opportunity to repeat a quiet little request i made a earlier.....

EddieVedd Posted: Jul 21 2004, 01:41 PM

Houtx, give us a post

What you say about shifting the focus back to PLAYING is perfect and with Friday 3's half an hour away I cant wait to have my first game in a few days

[diane]

with Friday 3's half an hour away I cant wait to have my first game in a few days

gees, rub my nose in the fact i am at work - missing yet another golden opportunity for a thrashing - why dont ya !!!  

[SubtleOne]

Now back to the basic question:

Should tryout have objected to a multi-ID user on team-BRB when he permits it on other teams?

I'm unaware of other multi-IDs. At least on board 1, but then perhaps you mean board 2 or 3? Could you state which you have in mind?

Albert

[diane]

One obvious one is Biggles and Biggles_Two, I have been lead to believe he uses one for league play and one for normal fibs play.  I have not, however confirmed this - I see little point in concerning myself with that - since both nicks have very high ratings  and plenty of experience. The original premise for objecting to the new nick was that it had a lower rating and very low experience points - thus making the resultant ratings losses and gains somewhat unfair.  I am not aware of any others.

[SubtleOne]

One obvious one is Biggles and Biggles_Two, I have been lead to believe he uses one for league play and one for normal fibs play.

No, Biggles_two is the same nick used in both League and Team League play.  

[burper]

F
All the blablabla about freedom of speech and whatnot just doesn't hold.

And freedom, oh freedom, well that's just some people talkin,
NIHI's prison is walking through this world all alone.

[Biggles]

Just to recap for diane..

Biggles was a nick created solely for 1 point matches.  I retired him when the tournaments started, but still may occasionally play a 1 pointer on it.

I asked Patti if I could start Biggles_two for team league, league and tournament play, and she agreed.

Just FYI

Biggles
(the most Popular Fibster....now at 820,000)  

[Shades]

I asked Patti if I could start Biggles_two for team league, league and tournament play, and she agreed.


lets see if I get this right, Biggles.. you created a specific nick for the tourneys... why is that??... scared your holly ranking could go down..?...    we all take our chances when playing tourneys or league games but, according to you, we better create a second nick , which can be abandoned easily if games go wrong??.. My Hero..!! :angry:  

[PortWine]

My rating could be at least 5 points higher if I protected it and took it seriously!

[EddieVedd]

Thanks for clarifying Biggles.  

Whilst i don't quite get it myself, if somone wanted a alternative Nik, requests it of the administrator (Patti) and the TD if it is to be involved in Tournaments, and both of them have no objections, i'd have to lean towards a 'whatever rocks ur socks' attitude. Serious Hic-ups may arise if you came across an opponent who objected. Mostly though i wonder what would happen if everyone who plays in Tourneys and The League did the same ? I don't know, maybe Patti would ok all ? This would never happen en-masse i think as many like me would never bother, but some doing it and some not creates inequality which my gut tells me should be avoided.

I've never been ratings orientated and think "bottom feeding" is a hollow victory but unlike the subject of the "sub-issue" of this thread (Nihilist & NihOlympic) i have respect for Biggles ability to play BG given his League performances and Tournament victories.

There will be a range of opinions on this i suspect and perhaps it deserves a thread of it's own ? Do we blanket rule that none are to do it or accept that some will want to and respect their decision ? One thing's for sure though imho, if a TD objects to it, their position should be respected.

[diane]

i have respect for Biggles ability to play BG given his League performances and Tournament victories.

Exactly - the difference here - as i posted - is that both nicks have similar ratings and enough experience not to distort any results.  I suppose there must have been a phase when that wasnt the case though  

(you should also note there are three nihilist nicks i know of - the original, NIHIleague and the new one - it does lead to the question of why the third one? - Do we get a new one for the start of each tournament in order to do as much rating damage as possible? )  

[EddieVedd]

Perhaps 'minimum 400 experience' for a Nik to compete in a Tourney would solve that aspect of it ?

[diane]

I like that suggestion - fair all round i think    

[don]

It's really quite simple.  Nobody here is going to get Patti to do anything about FIBS' policy, so is it OK to use different niks on teams or not?  If not, then there's a serious enforcement problem.  If so, then this whole thread is a waste of time and tryout should apologize to houtx.

The most reasonable sounding post I've seen in this thread was an explanation of houtx's actions which happens to be incorrect.

The ratings discussion is silly, nobody has said anything about the net effect on ratings of a skewed nik.

[EddieVedd]

don Posted on Jul 26 2004, 07:35 AM

It's really quite simple. Nobody here is going to get Patti to do anything about FIBS' policy

Agreed for both.

so is it OK to use different niks on teams or not?

In THIS tourney YES as long as you don't overtly offend the TD with your new Team name.  The hesitation with denying it would be solved with the equitable solution 2 posts before your last I feel but the implementation of this is up to the TD, not me.

If so, then this whole thread is a waste of time and tryout should apologize to houtx.

I'll need more convincing of that and don't agree. You see tryout was the one insulted after he allowed the team entry with the new NIk (please re-read summary above for any clarification).

The most reasonable sounding post I've seen in this thread was an explanation of houtx's actions which happens to be incorrect

What    

The ratings discussion is silly, nobody has said anything about the net effect on ratings of a skewed nik.

Yes they have , please feel free to define it more clearly for us.


& still waiting for answer to this ....

SubtleOne Posted: Jul 23 2004, 04:08 PM 

QUOTE (don @ Jul 23 2004, 09:25 AM)
Now back to the basic question:

Should tryout have objected to a multi-ID user on team-BRB when he permits it on other teams? 


I'm unaware of other multi-IDs. At least on board 1, but then perhaps you mean board 2 or 3? Could you state which you have in mind?

Albert 

[socksey]

This subject has rather been beaten to death already, so I'd like to summarize by beating the horse a bit more.  

Tryout states very clearly and accurately how ratings can be manipulated by using a nick with less experience and lower rating, is insulted for his objection for NIHI using that low nick for league, then bans team, rightly so (his call as TD).

Souptree feigns lack of understanding, insults our intelligence, and I may never address him as, "souper douper" again.

NIHILIST feigns he is insulted, attacks, regains sanity, agrees with tryout's analysis, by admitting the reason he wishes to use another nick for league play is, as in tryout's analysis, and since NIHILIST isn't allowed to use another nick in team play, he will take his marbles home, and stay out of the sandbox, disregarding the protocol of going through the team captain of the playschool.

Meanwhile, souptree still feigns lack of understanding when we all know very well that he has an superior grasp of the English language!

JLee is confused about the topic that began the issue and likes mustard on his hot dogs.  

Don still doesn't understand the TD is the boss (for the thousandth time).  

socksey




I used to have a handle on life, but it broke off. - submitted by Brenna

[souptree]

Meanwhile, souptree still feigns lack of understanding when we all know very well that he has an superior grasp of the English language!

I have never feigned a lack of understanding of my superior grasp of the English language!

[JLee]

JLee is confused about the topic that began the issue and likes mustard on his hot dogs.  

Ketchup, actually, thanks.  And still confused.

JLee