99 in 1 ? what's the issue ?

[MagoWiz]

In Fibs' opening banner these days Patti is warning against the practice of playing 99pt matches in one single game, suggesting that this equals to cheating.

What does she mean? How does that affect rating calculation? In favor of whom?  

[adamosad]

Hi Magowiz,

I think that someone can connect to the internet with a different IP (e.g. from a different phone line in case of a modem) create a new account in FIBS and play himself. If he wants to go up fast, he will play 99 pointers, set the cube to 64 and win a gammon with his normal nickname. With this CHEATING method, he can take a lot of rating points in less than 10 minutes.

Patti wants to avoid this, which is unfair for all of us who play legally. Thatââ,¬â,,¢s why she said that.

Do not ask me why 99 and not 98 or 97 etc.... I do not know. Maybe someone else or Patti herself can help you with that...

[grapelli]

Hi MagoWiz,

after a 99-in-1-match, neither the experience points nor the ratings of NEITHER of them is correct. Then these players play others in perfectly legal matches - and the ratings of these other players get inflated or deflated as well. The fact that this practice affects rating calculation at all is sufficient to ban these players. And it probably is cheating as well. "In favor of whom?" In favor of the winner, I guess.


grapelli

[vegas_vic]

Ok let get this clear

i caught the players playing 98 game in one all they do is turn the cube and play the game .

as patti said there is no stratagy here but to change the ratings . what i saw was dumping simple as that 4 games played won 128-0 3 times and won 256-0 .
now some of the nicks were logged on thru parlor play so we can not see the ips .

and watching the  checker play you can see one player was just dumping the match .

i reported this to Patti with times and days and told the persons playing  that its not allowed in fibs . that they can go to yahoo or pogo.com to play 64 in one or what ever, they answered back go blank your self vic .

She looked it up and she nuked it . i hope more people would do this. We need to  police ourselves if you see something is not right . log it and tell patti .

You have to make the case to Patti and she will look into it .

vic

[MND]

I think 64 datw (double all the way) started by some jerks on msn as a cheating/rating ploy.
It is fortunately not so common on fibs.

[NIHILIST]

It isn't much of a cheating strategy, and it's the worst possible strategy to jack up one's rating. If you start at 1500 and win a 99, your rating takes a boost, but so does your exp. After a few 99s your exp has pretty much ruined your chances to make meaningful rating gains.

The rating gain for winning the second 99 is significantly less that your first win, and significantly less for subsequent wins; course your exp increases by 99 for each game. After 4 99s you've reached the point where 1 pointers are worth 1 point, etc. You'd be farther ahead running up 400 exp playing 1, 2 or 3 pointers.

It's a colossal waste of time to achieve nothing at all.


NIHI

[cthulhu]

Playing someone your own rating, when the experience doesn't matter, in a 99-pointer will jack your rating up approx 20 rating points instead of the 2 you would gain playing a 1-pointer. Of course, leeching on much weaker players would gain you very little in 99ers.

[MND]

It isn't much of a cheating strategy, and it's the worst possible strategy to jack up one's rating. If you start at 1500 and win a 99, your rating takes a boost, but so does your exp. After a few 99s your exp has pretty much ruined your chances to make meaningful rating gains.

The rating gain for winning the second 99 is significantly less that your first win, and significantly less for subsequent wins; course your exp increases by 99 for each game. After 4 99s you've reached the point where 1 pointers are worth 1 point, etc. You'd be farther ahead running up 400 exp playing 1, 2 or 3 pointers.

It's a colossal waste of time to achieve nothing at all.


NIHI

The 64 datw fans on msn are usually in the skill level of 800-1300 fibs, which explains it. They are the only ones who gains by playing it as far as I can see.

[NIHILIST]

If I played someone a 99, my rating gain MIGHT be 2 points, but my exp jumps by 99. The upside is very small compared to the damage created by the addition of 99 exp.


NIHI

[cthulhu]

If you played someone with the same rating Nihilist, you would gain 20 rating points in a 99er after your exp has reached 400. When do you achive that rating boost from playing a "1 pointer" except from the first couple of games?

If you could continue to play ppl that have your rating all the time you would exceed the rating 2000 after 25 99-in-1 games. If you win of course. And then, I did the calculations after you have reched 400 exp points.

If you play 1-pointers it would take you a LOT longer. Even if you start from 0 exp.

[NIHILIST]

Not sure I understand your point. Are you saying that, starting at 1500 I'd reach 2000 after only 25 99s ? If I concede that that's true, what you arent pointing out is that after winning all 25 99s, my exp is 2475.

If I start at 1500 and win 50 1 pointers, I'm at 2000 with an exp of 50. With the window closing at 400 exp, I still have plenty of upside.

My rating is currently 2284 with an exp of 7427. Do the math matching me with a player rated 1950/5000. Tell me what I gain by winning a 99 vs this player and what I gain winning a 3 pointer.

I doubt I gain 3 points winning the 99 while picking up 99 more exp.


NIHI

[cthulhu]

Not sure I understand your point. Are you saying that, starting at 1500 I'd reach 2000 after only 25 99s ? If I concede that that's true, what you arent pointing out is that after winning all 25 99s, my exp is 2475.

Exactly.

If I start at 1500 and win 50 1 pointers, I'm at 2000 with an exp of 50. With the window closing at 400 exp, I still have plenty of upside.

I take your word for it. That means you would have to play twice as many 1-pointers as 99-in-1 to reach the same rating level.

My rating is currently 2284 with an exp of 7427. Do the math matching me with a player rated 1950/5000. Tell me what I gain by winning a 99 vs this player and what I gain winning a 3 pointer.

I doubt I gain 3 points winning the 99 while picking up 99 more exp.

In a 99er you would approx gain 0.85 and lose 40 playing someone that much weaker and in a 3 pointer it would be around 2.35 gain and 4.58 lose.

My point was and is that if you play ppl the same (or higher) rating level that you have, you would gain much more from playing 99-in-1 than 1 pointers.  Whereas you gain 10 points per game as maximum playing 1 pointers, you gain minimum 20 points of rating points playing 99-in-1. Remember that this is only true when playing someone with an equal level or higher.

You can check it yourself at http://home.nordnet.fr/~fhochede/ratings.shtml

[vegas_vic]

You both are missing the point here , this is about people playing 99-04 64 in one game to dump fast points from one nick to the other nick.
I caught the guys doing it just simply turning the cube then resigning back gammon 4 times

scores of 128-0 128-0 128-0 and 258-0

its just a fast way for cheaters using parlorplay to dump fast points from one nick to the other
so we wont catch it.
Well i saw it on the server and told patti and she nuked them .

I see NHIL's point it has no up side if the people are really playing it its stupid like the 2pt matches its a dead cube game and a 50 50 win lose .

But here its not 50-50  one nick is dumping into the other nick , As the italians were doing .

Go get em Patti  

[NIHILIST]

I'm sure it's been used to cheat; on the other hand, several regulars seem to enjoy the fast pace and chance to see lots of points shift in one game.

Go figger.


NIHI

[Zorba]

The FIBS rating system assumes that longer matches give the better player higher chances to win. In itself this is correct although FIBS formula may not always estimate this correctly for each and every matchlength.

If two players are playing a 99ptr or similar but jack up the cube to make it effectively a 1pt match, then the LOWER rated player is MUCH better off than in a TRUE 1pt match or a TRUE 99pt match.

Example: if Bob (1700) plays 99-in-1 with Biggles (2200) this will happen:

Bob wins: Bob gains 39.67 rating points (and Biggles loses those)

Biggles wins: Biggles gains 0.13 rating points (and Bob loses those)

FIBS comes up with these numbers because it treats it like a REAL 99pt match. It would be a huge achievement by Bob-the-intermediate to beat Biggles-the extraterrestrial so that earns a lot of points. By contrast, it would be highly expected that Biggles beats Bob (FIBS says 99.68%) so that is rewarded by a very small amount only.

For more information, type 'help ratings' on FIBS or search r.g.b. with google, etc.

[spielberg]

Nice to see an intelligent discussion . The fibs rating system is modelled from the chess rating system would you believe? When these particular twerps play with their ratings in a misguided attempt to "cheat" "the system" it , obviously , just demonstrates either

1. ignorance or indifference to math (viz risk reward etc etc)

(This operates when they play a REAL DMP match against a real opponent with the cube "kited" (repeatedly bounced back and forwards to 128 )  - an argument may be made that this is "fair" (tho' stupid - I must confess I've done it twice myself (long ago under another nick when drunk) ) - this is NIHI's real "gamble" example.

2. ignorance or indifference to math (viz value of FIBS ratings points) !


A key point to note may be that this is a game , more over it's a nice vicious gambling game , nothing is ever quite as it seems ( eg paradoxes , gammon values ,  correct to make the weaker move to enable the cube etc etc)

Those who wish to improve their game (for points) should concentrate on the cube - checker play is , usually , fairly simple and won't have nearly as large an effect , in tournament matches , as proper doubling.


And they're 99 in 1 matches because Fibs won't (strangely ) allow 100 point matches - a bug to be fixed perhaps?

And now I delight to catch a (very rare ) vegas mistake viz -2,-2  is NOT a dead cube - against a bot sure - against a human no .

[socksey]

spielberg Posted on May 14 2005, 09:22 PM:  

Those who wish to improve their game (for points) should concentrate on the cube - checker play is , usually , fairly simple and won't have nearly as large an effect , in tournament matches , as proper doubling.

I'm wondering if a study has been made of this?  

spielberg Posted on May 14 2005, 09:22 PM:  

And now I delight to catch a (very rare ) vegas mistake viz -2,-2 is NOT a dead cube - against a bot sure - against a human no .

I always delight in this also for obvious reasons!    The arguements abound, but is clear to me that some stategy is available and I love the 2-ptrs!  

socksey



"I have come to realize more and more that the greatest disease and the greatest suffering is to be unwanted, unloved, uncared for, to be shunned by everybody, to be just nobody [to no one]." -Mother Teresa, in 'My Life for the Poor'

[Tom]

Some players at yahoo yell and scream that so-and-so is cheating because they don't send the cube back right away...

it is funny if you take a step back...

and you can't even explain to them that you should not send the cube when you are behind...

they are hopeless...

tom