FLG session 21 end

[Shuggie]

Hardy of course that is aceptable for a Tourney director. However if someone takes offence to something that it is said, it doesn't matter who you are; you may well get a response that you do not like.

And as I pointed out Aram had no problem so why did Tom?  

[Hardy_whv]

... However if someone takes offence to something that it is said, it doesn't matter who you are ...

You are absolutely right Shuggie. But I can't really believe that Tomawaky started to offend someone. And I witnessed the above mentioned match tryout-snowflakes, where Kari entered wished "hi, gm!" and saw the reactions of snowflakes   :furios:

Perhaps two people met, who tend to overreact. Why can't people just have a good time onFIBS?  

CU there soon,

Hardy      

[Biggles]

From someone that has been around a while at FIBS....it's very easy to see what has transpired over the years......

(1) The self appointed Euro tourney directors that started FIBSLeague and tourneybot tourneys started off doing a tremendous job of promoting play and making sure everyone was included.

(2) When things spoken in shouts that happened to be between US/Europe players or TDs or personal conflicts started happening between them, the TDs took their new found powers and decided to singlehandedly exclude US players in an effort to censor or control what they said either in shouts or between them personally.  (I personally had Tomawaky threaten me on more than one occasion of being kicked out of FibsLeague simply for things being shouted).  

(3) TDs start banning people from tournaments and league for shouts or simply because they don't like the person, and a HUGE majority of these are Euro TDs kicking out or banning a US player.  I have a hard time thinking of a Euro TD kicking out or banning another Euro player, and in fact can't think of a single occurence of this.

Interesting individual examples to think about:

- NIHILIST not being allowed to play team league simply over a team-name
- Team Grog (an all American team) going 11-0 in the first team league session and never having it posted, nor recognized on the FIBS league board.
- Snowflakes being harassed, when he is simply ASKING for TDs not to kibitz or comment during his match (ESPECIALLY a TD coming in saying 'Good Match' when he's down 6-0 and there is already tension between the 2 parties involved)
- tryout banning people (all US players btw) left and right because they found it funny that he would be compared to a nazi for kicking people out of his tourneys for personal stuff that had nothing to do with his tournaments.
- the Euros continually changing BagOlympic times to suit the needs on their end without considering the needs of all involved, or at least making it very difficult.  btw, BagoOlympics is a joke.....none of the good US players even bother
 
 
The list goes on and on and on.   If the Euros feel a burning desire to suppress free speech and thoughts on shouts because their little feelings get hurt, must they keep taking it to the backgammon forum and ruin leagues and tournaments?  Why not take it to shouts/tells where it started and deal with the personal conflicts like adults insteading of using their 'pretend' powers to limit playing experieces on what is supposed to be a backgammon site?  This latest example from snowflakes is just another example of someone (another Euro) not liking snowflakes and his behavior on shouts as a reason to justify kicking him out of league.  

You Euros really need to grow up and quit acting like babies......if someone says something you don't like, confront them face to face about it and not use it as a ridiculous reason to not let good players play.  Enough already.

[Hardy_whv]

Biggles, the times of BagOlympics were selected in that way, that the TDs that applied for that job were available. If there were 2 or 3 players that would be willing to organize envents at times that suit US players it would be great! The "self appointed Euro tourney directors"  are the only ones who took the initiative. So why cry instead of acting as a TD yourself?

I have seen no action of TDs that was based on nationality, only on misbehaviour. Maybe added some misunderstandings because of different cultures?! So I think we should stop argueing on a US vs. Euro basis. That doesn't help us any further.

Hardy    

[Biggles]

If you can give me a case of a Euro banning or kicking out another Euro, I might let it slide but there isn't one single case of it, so my argument still holds true.  

You might want to look at it, before dismissing it without any merit.

[Hardy_whv]

If you can give me a case of a Euro banning or kicking out another Euro, I might let it slide ...

If you give me an example of a US TD kicking out a US player I accept your argument.

And how about MY other points?


Hardy    

[Biggles]

Socksey has banned several US players.......glad you finally conceded my point.  

(It's like pulling teeth)

[dorbel]

It is difficult to understand why people who react to any and every difficult situation with insult, cursing and rudeness, take such exception when other people decline to admit them to their leagues and tournaments. If all those so banned are Americans, then perhaps we could draw some inference from that, although I am sure that we are all too polite to do so! Happily, the very great majority of American fibsters that I have had the pleasure of competing with over the years, bring only credit to the game and their country. Sadly, we have not always, or indeed ever, been able to say the same of Biggles! Spare us the lectures Mr Moral Majority!  

[Hardy_whv]

Socksey has banned several US players.......

Could you get more precise?

.......glad you finally conceded my point. 

I must have missed something.


Hardy    

[diane]

Unfortunately - I am forced to agree with biggles  - I can only think of one euro player who came close to the general unpleasant behaviour exhibited by some of the banned american ones (cheating and shouting unacceptable material)  - and he didnt even come close to being banned - nay, he remains on very good terms with all tourney directors.

Oh, but that is just my personal beef - but wait - aren't all these just personal beefs??  My beef was based on bad behaviour in a tourney, and subsequent unsportsmanly behaviour.  All grounds as valid as any documented here for a ban - but none was ever administered.

I cannot stand to see inequities in the treatment of players - and once again - we see exactly that.

[Biggles]

Dorbel,

We've played a few times in leagues and tournaments....

Please name one occasion in league or tournament play where I've insulted or been abrasive during a match.  The answer is Never.  As snowflakes has also admitted, during league or tournament matches, I say nothing derogatory or distractive, in fact I usually say nothing at all except a 'gl' at the beginning.

You're proving my point without even realizing it.....

What's said in shouts has NOTHING to do with what happens in league or tournament play.  What part of this statement don't you get?  You keep missing the point.

[diane]

Oh, but I still think he would benefit from reading a copy of 'How to win freinds and influence people'    

[dorbel]

I don't personally find you particularly abrasive during matches Biggles. Your standard whining about bullshit dice and your complete inability to accept defeat in anything approaching a polite manner is amusing to me actually. It is you that misses the point of international competition I feel.
As to my failing to understand your point that what happens in shouts should be irrelevant, I understand what you are trying to say, I just don't happen to agree with it. Incidentally, in the only tournament that I directed on fibs, I refused to accept one entry as you know. The other, who was disqualified during the tournament was from Australia.

[Biggles]

LOL.....Dorbel

Now I know you're desperate as hell......If there is one thing I DONT ever do during league or tournament matches is complain about dice.   Simply no point.  I think you got the wrong guy.

And again, the banning that is taking place is over what's taking place on SHOUTS or TELLS outside of matches, not during the match.  I keep trying to point you in that direction and you keep running in the other direction with your blindfold on, dorbel.  Please stay on topic.  What I do or say (which is absolutely nothing) during a tournament/league match has NOTHING to do with this thread.


"It is you that misses the point of international competition I feel."
Actually dorbel, hard as it is to believe BAGO was originally my idea.......tryout (because he's a very angry person) won't admit it, but I had been writing Tomawaky and him discussing the possibility of putting together a World Cup type concept for FIBS long before it was actually ever built.  Most of my ideas were put in BAGO and am glad it finally got off the ground.  It really lost a lot of its charm when all this stuff started happening though, as you can probably understand.  

[gammboy]

I'm kind of a outsider to this discussion, not being involved in the leagues and such, but it seems liks such a simple conflict.  If I'm involved in playing a match, and you want to watch, WATCH...  but STFU while you're doing it.   $DIEITY knows that I need all the concentration I can muster to lose gracefully.

Based on what I've seen here, Snowflakes is right and should not have been banned.  Anyone (TDs included) who watches his match should STFU until its over or until one of the players speaks to them.  Thats just common courtesy.

My .02, for what its worth.

GB

[socksey]

I have a hard time thinking of a Euro TD kicking out or banning another Euro player, and in fact can't think of a single occurence of this.

Perhaps there are less vociferous Euro players or perhaps the handful of Americans we have who behave badly stand out more.   -_-

Socksey has banned several US players.......

Yes, please be more specific.  I can only think of one at the moment, and that was only temporary.  The only person I recall who I seriously banned was vqs and that too, was temporary and he was not from the USA, although he may have been from the USA at one time.  My bans have always been for bad behavior and/or bad sportsmanship and I have not considered where the players are from in the least.

Way back when I beat Biggles in league play, I truely can't swear if he said anything DURING the match.  There was plenty said after the match which made me angry.  However, I don't carry grudges, and tend to forgive and move on.  I will say that in the very few matches I have played Biggles since then, he has been polite.

It has been an understood that players in a tourney cannot gag and blind the TD.  No need to explain this to reasonable people.  If anyone gags and blinds me when I am running a tourney, I won't tolerate that and they should be prepared to be forfeited.  

Apparently, that godawful time for Bago at 6 am, my time, was to accomodate diane's TD duties.  The TDing was offered to volunteers who would accept the position, but none have come forth to volunteer to TD and change the time, that I am aware of.  That being the case, how anyone can complain, with good conscience, is beyond me.  

Yes, the USA has a group of men who insist on behaving like bad little boys.  So be it.     We must deal with it in shouts, but we don't have to deal with it in our tourneys or leagues when we are giving of our time and efforts.  In this regard, I must say that the behavior seems to have improved so maybe we are getting past this slowly.  

Too bad it isn't a perfect world where everyone gets along with everyone and there are no insults.

socksey



"Here's a heartwarming story In Boston, a teenager's life was saved when a bullet fired at him was deflected by his cell phone. I know this sounds like a miracle until you realize, if the kid hadn't been talking on his cell phone in the movies, nobody would have shot at him in the first place." - Jay Leno    

[diane]

Apparently, that godawful time for Bago at 6 am, my time, was to accomodate diane's TD duties.  The TDing was offered to volunteers who would accept the position, but none have come forth to volunteer to TD and change the time, that I am aware of.

I must just correct this - it was to provide the and only slot that was both bearable to a European and useful to an Australian (and those on similar time zones) - since no Australian TDs were available - it was a COMPROMISE (and we did repeatedly ask for American TDs to set up a better slot for Americans). Now - back to the matter in hand...    

[socksey]

I must just correct this -

What correction?  

socksey



"Censorship, like charity, should begin at home; but, unlike charity, it should end there." - Clare Booth Luce

[Tomawaky]

Biggles,

Stop the point Euros vs US. I really believe that you try to generate a climate which does not exist, in my opinion.

I will not reconsider your temporary ban. Many have been right down there and those who want to learn more can search info in this forum.

About snowflakes
I think that snowflakes felt himself ready to explode when I start to watch and kibitz during his game and that I felt myself ready to explode my turn of his reaction.

The fact that I wondered whether I must ban him or not, comes from the simple fact and only that, that I heard "a$$hole", get gagged, and that I felt that Snow refuse any explanation.

As I said in the first post. I kept to days of reflexion and after hearing all of the reactions in this topic and Snowflakes' ones. I must acknowledged that my reaction was a little fast.
But I do not regret to have post this topis. I have nothing to hide and prefer to speak frankly with all of you even if my limited english does not allow me to be expressed so easily.

So, even If I do not guess that Snow and me become the best friends ;-), as the FLG Host and if Snowflakes is agree I cancel the ban and wish a good match to Snow and Spock for the final of the session 21.

[Shuggie]

- Team Grog (an all American team) going 11-0 in the first team league session and never having it posted, nor recognized on the FIBS league board.

Team_Grog team captain = Shuggie_II
Shuggie_II nationality = English

Biggles you've known me for about 5 years and think I'm American, I think my sister has turned you brain to mush.

Anyway got that of my chest..........


Back to the issues in hand. Tom has admitted that he may of been heavy-handed. I never thought for one second Tom intentionally went out to offend or harras someone. However this was how it was received/perceived.

I think snowflakes should be re-instated as a gesture of goodwill.