Dear Patti

[don]

Hi Patti:

You seem to have a problem when I object to racism on FIBS, particularly when I refer to the most frequent racist on FIBS.  When I chat with you privately to avoid the usual public crap you seem to have problems with a quid pro quo. I mean it would be nice to have a more reasonable avenue of report than "device/null", your version of "go away".

Please tell me publically, Patti, if what you want is for me to ignore racism on FIBS, or that I simply ignore NIHo's flames.  You've said many times over the years that you will handle anything that Bob shouts without help from me, yet he continues in his usual rut.  You sanction what he has to say:  Frequent and continued ID theft quotes from rec.games.backgammon; continuous flames; continuous racism in shouts; etc.  Report complaints to Patti@nowhere or device/null.  Add in his dogpack of vegasvic, tubro and zyxtcba.  If I ignore them I will be ignoring most flames about me.  If they ignore me it will not reduce the flames on FIBS significantly.

While I'm at it, am I allowed to object to racists other than Bob?  Am I permitted to occasionally respond to flames?  I know I'm not supposed to disagree with you, and that's the only problem I have with your running of FIBS.  I've only disagreed with you Patti, but never dissed you.  If disagreement is a problem then I hope you make my current ban a permanent ban, and I hope you have the integrity to mention it here since I won't get it on FIBS.  If not, move on.

I hope you can respond to this without mentioning any rants from me, Patti, unless you can quote them.  (If this is a rant I'm not surprised since I've always tried to make sense with you.  I suspect you don't like to be disagreed with.)  The last time you used the term it was fodder for, guess who ...and his dog pack?  If you think I'm a twit I hope you use more than the word.. try some quotes to prove your point.

I'm not saying you have to do what is impossible for you,  Patti, like nuking racists.  I am saying I don't understand why you have a problem with people who object to racists.  If you want to get rid of racists, liars and cheats you should not bother me.  Your should ask for my help.

I hope you keep running FIBS even better than you do.


--
don

[dorbel]

Let me help. Fibs shouts is a tough forum in that using it reveals more about ourselves than we realise. Our faults and our good points are there for all to see. Human nature being what it is we are blind to our own faults and acutely aware of those of others. This applies to all of us.
Those who like to bully and tease seize on those who react, because it amuses them. There is only one way to deal with this. Complaining to Patti doesn't do it, trying to engage bullies in rational debate doesn't do it either. You have to ignore them don. It really is that simple. You are what you are, Niho is what he is. Neither of you is ever likely to change much. Move on!

[KDP]

Well said, sometimes the simplest solution is the best one.

[stog]

Neither of you is ever likely to change much. Move on!

 

[stog]

this is a T shirt which folks can wear once they have fullfilled their spiral of inner change.

 

[spielberg]

Well said dorbel. don this is not and never will be a perfect world (indeed from a philosophical viewpoint there are exceptional arguments that nirvanas are not only unattainable they're also very, very dull). I welcome the presence of racists in the shouting as yet another chance to laugh at them.

[roadkillbooks]

I must say that I don't tolerate racism.  I think they tarnish all of fibs.  Being on fibs should be a priveledge and those that dont follow our community standards should not be allowed on.  I dont have names and instances but there are racist things said on a regular basis.  Long copy paste shouts from reactionary blogs are also a problem but the only why to stop that is by limiting the character allowed in a shout and only allowing a shout every 10 seconds or so.

roadkillbooks

[spielberg]

I loathe racists and certainly don't tolerate them. Let them shout their garbage - it makes it far easier to attack them.

[garp_02]

If I may just add my little piece

When logging on to Fibs, there is a message which appears to tell me that

' This server is on the net to meet people from all countries.


     All sorts of racists and fascists are not allowed to login here!


        Rude language will not be tolerated on this server. Be nice.'

Now I don't know if any of the previous replies have been made by anyone actually representing the site, but the views of some of the previous posts certainly seem to contravene the stated rules.

I don't know the individual circumstances regarding don's original post, nor am I interested in the politics or personal greivances frequently displayed both on this forum, and on the rare occasion I enter the 'shout' arena.  But I will say that the shout arena is frequently filled with very rude and racist people. I don't feel it is right that this should be allowed to continue and, may actually be against the general rules for sites such as this.

I would be obliged if action could be taken to define the rules more clearly or enforce the existing rules.

Regards,

Garp

[dorbel]

Well said by all here. On a scale of 1-10, how racist is what we see on fibs? I've seen references to sand niggers, desert monkeys, nigras (sic), cut and paste pieces purporting to show that black people (whatever that may mean) are genetically liable to be criminals, quoted "scientific" research to demonstrate that negroids are of limited intelligence,  and many other examples of what one can only describe as racist language and ideas, but how bad is it actually? Bearing in mind what one can see in many other places online, what one can overhear in any bar, what one can read in the news straight from the mouths of elected politicians, it seems to me to be offensive, but not unbearably so. I'll give it 5/10.
One of the worst things about right wing idealogues is their simplistic approach. There is only one cause of any problem, only one solution  and any other view is wrong. Those who hold other views are morons and nobody must ever change their mind. If we are to start banning people because they hold views that are repugnant to some, perhaps even most of us, we go down the same road. I can bear to hear a bit of racist crap now and again if it means that we keep our free speech. When it gets too much, I shift the perpetrator to the villains list for a bit, which does the trick.
Is there a limit? I expect that there is, but we don't seem to have reached it yet. Ignoring those that offend you, ostracising them and not giving them the satisfaction of a response seems to me more likely to succeed in the long run than ranting on to mummy to get them banned.

[diane]

I've seen references to sand niggers, desert monkeys, nigras (sic), cut and paste pieces purporting to show that black people (whatever that may mean) are genetically liable to be criminals, quoted "scientific" research to demonstrate that negroids are of limited intelligence,  and many other examples of what one can only describe as racist language and ideas

I am so pleased I haven't seen this - because I have the single main perpetrator gagged...

Am I ignoring it rather than facing it?  I don't think so - the only reason this guy carries on, is because it guarantees him an audience, in what would otherwise be a sad and empty existence. Top tip - don't be an audience to his ramblings.

[garp_02]

I respect dorbel's opinion so I'll try to be kind.

Free speech, though undoubtedly welcome, is only a small part of the general concept of freedom.  Freedom from many things, which include, amongst others, freedom from harrassment, persecution, racism etc etc.  To focus on one small part of 'freedom' ie speech, is to diminish the whole concept of freedom for all.

I believe evryone should be free to do whatever they want - so long as it does not prevent anyone else from excersing their freedom.

[socksey]

Freedom is a Fibs command called "gag".  I need say no more, but I will.   

When people are censored in their speech, Fibs becomes a boring backgammon site.  The shout feature in Fibs and it's freedom, is what makes Fibs special and above all the rest.     Long may it reign!   

socksey



The journey of a thousand miles sometimes ends very, very badly. - Lithograph from Despair.com

[NIHILIST]

This entire thread has been very educational in that it beautifully demonstrates political correctness and the individual biases of many of the writers.

Roadkillbooks for instance complains that "  Long copy paste shouts from reactionary blogs are also a problem. "
Does that mean that long copy paste shouts from liberal blogs are acceptable ?

Similarly, Dorbel notes that " One of the worst things about right wing idealogues is their simplistic approach."
Maybe he can tell us what one of the worst things about left wing idealogues is.

Dorbel also would have us believe that " cut and paste pieces purporting to show that black people (whatever that may mean) are genetically liable to be criminals " is, by itself, racist. When Bill Cosby cites statistics and points out that young black men are more likely to go to prison than to college, is he being RACIST ?

Why is there no condemnation of the daily shouted rabid anti-semitism from our good European friends ? Isn't that racism ?

The answer is NO !

The current dictionary definition of RACISM is " a belief or doctrine that inherent differences among the various human races determine cultural or individual achievement, usually involving the idea that one's own race is superior and has the right to rule others."

I have NEVER subscribed to this theory nor have I ever seen ANYONE on FIBS shout that his race is superior to another. I challenge any of the contributors to this thread to produce such a shout.

The truth is we are all of different cultures, history, upbringing and environment. In spirited discussions of politics, religion, world events and society that occur on FIBS daily there are going to be occasional heated exchanges and very different opinions and philosophies voiced.

That's all they are..........DIFFERENCES OF OPINION.

If you think it's too personal or too much in conflict with your own philosophies, use the GAG command. I do.


Bob

[Bones]

I've been at fibs for somewhere around 6 years.  Almost the first thing I learned here was, shouts is a cesspool.  I avoid it like the plague, except on rare and necessary occasions. 

Can or should shouts be censored?  Of course not. 

Should idiots, racists, foul-mouthed jerks, and all those who make shouts a cesspool be held accountable?  Yes, and here's how:

Don't censor -- log!  Create a running, permanent, and searchable log of every single word shouted in shouts.  Every flame, every rant, and every racist epithet would then exist forever, and any interested fibster can look it up. 

Whether or not a complaint system and/or administrator intervention would be necessary, could be decided later.  I've got a pretty strong hunch that the knowledge that your words are being recorded for posterity, for all to see, will have an effect on the tone of the conversation. 

I say, log that sucker! 

[NIHILIST]

I'm pretty certain Patti can do that now.

Bob

[dorbel]

Similarly, Dorbel notes that " One of the worst things about right wing idealogues is their simplistic approach."
Maybe he can tell us what one of the worst things about left wing idealogues is.

Dorbel also would have us believe that " cut and paste pieces purporting to show that black people (whatever that may mean) are genetically liable to be criminals " is, by itself, racist. When Bill Cosby cites statistics and points out that young black men are more likely to go to prison than to college, is he being RACIST ?

Why is there no condemnation of the daily shouted rabid anti-semitism from our good European friends ? Isn't that racism ?

The answer is NO !

A simplistic approach to world problems is usually wrong regardless of political persuasion of course.

Pointing out that "black" men are more likely to go to prison than to university, if true, is one thing. Arguing that this is genetic, as NIHo has done in the past, is something else. The words simplistic and racist spring to mind.

If we heard anti-semitic shouts on fibs, they should of course be condemned, but we don't. The frequent use of the word "jewfuck" by NIHo is an exception to this of course.

I have NEVER subscribed to this theory nor have I ever seen ANYONE on FIBS shout that his race is superior to another

I have never heard anybody on fibs shout " my race is superior to x" either, but one cannot use language of the kind that we hear on fibs from NIHo and others and then say, "Of course this doesn't mean that I am racist". It does mean exactly that. To say things that you know to be offensive to others with the intention of offending them and then labelling them as PC when they object is absurd.

Do racial insults matter? Actually, they do. The labelling of a racial group within one's country or the citizens of another country with epithets that portray them as alien, as "other", is a key first step towards legitimising their ill treatment and eventually death.

Respect for "others" is a key component of civilised behaviour. I respect the rights of NIHo and others to propound views that I find personally repugnant, would defend that right as I tried to do in earlier posts here, but setting out to offend with racist epithets and argument, succeeding in giving offence and then claiming that one is not actually racist is disingenuous beyond belief! Are we seriously supposed to think that non-racist NIHo impersonates Archie Bunker to tease liberals, but is in reality kindly old Uncle Bob who sees all mankind as his brothers? Pull the other one, it's got bells on!

[NIHILIST]

I have NEVER claimed that the likelihood of young blacks going to prison rather than to college is GENETIC and challenge you to produce such a shout.

You never disappoint me, when confronted with your own biases and ignorance you distort the discussion, lying and throwing mud as you go.

I also notice you conveniently ducked my invitation for you tell us what one of the worst things about left wing idealogues is.


Bob

[dorbel]

Like I save your shouts! As I said in my first post, we all reveal ourselves in shouts, good and bad, whether we want to or not, you, me, everybody. You are what you are and we see you clearly.
The worst thing about left wing idealogues is the same as the right wing idealogues, i.e. the tendency to see everything as black or white if you will pardon the expression. Just about everything is more complex than that, including racism.
You may have the last word, I am done for now. I am sure that it will maintain your usual standard of debate!

[NIHILIST]

You don't save my shouts but you recall flawlessly, in great detail what I've said. I'd withdraw too if I were you. Being shown to be a liar once is bad enough, keep at it and you'll only look like a bigger fool than you are.


Bob