Repbot

[burper]

RepBots' list is more accurate, although Patti may try to revise that history as well.
The reason? The list on fibs comes directly from fibs, which saves ALL games including finished ones, for up to 24 hours (cleanup script runs once a day).
RepBot saves the list for an extra day and does an intersection across the list, so that only unfinished matches are shown.
There is still inaccuracy, say if you play the same player two days in a row.

There are people around smart enough to go get the start dates of the savedgames list and repbot. Heck, do a search on this board and you may find a discussion related to it. Repbot was first, and Pattis' savedgames list was in direct response to the need repbot identified.

How many more bothersome contacts from people recently dropped will Patti have to field after RepBot is gone? Does she think bothersome contacts from people pissed off about RepBot more than replaced those? Is it the volume of bothersome contacts she is really concerned about here?

To those that support RepBot, consider this: while RepBot lives, noone will bother to construct a better system. I say clear the way! Maybe the best solution was marvins' original, which was to construct a 'complain' command which sends messages directly to the bit bucket.

[burper]

If I'm not mistaken, the savedgame page predates repbot.  I assure you one had nothing to do with the other.

You might consider it a first, but you are mistaken:
Repbot, Oct 4 2001:
http://groups.google.com/group/rec.games.b...bbe6f38d1cdbdde
savedgames list, Dec 28 2001:
http://groups.google.com/group/rec.games.b...e9203d0467f1156

A decade goes by, RepBot appears, less than 2 months later savedgames appears. Coincidence?

[KDP]

personally i think repbot is a pc of crap and would love to see it go.  the only redeeming feature is that it shows the number of saved games an opponent has.  but since its been years since i personally have had anyone delibrately drop a match even that seems like a moot point now.  since ive been using the javafibs, it doesnt automatically give a players rep and saved count like 3dfibs does but i have to admit i still dont find out before accepting invites.  one thing to keep in mind is this, FIBS flourished before repbot and i suspect it will survive if he goes as well.

[burper]

I'd also like to point out, to those accusing repbot of abusability, the existence of the 'friends' command. With this command, you only get the opinions of those you trust. A basic assumption is made that those you trust is the same as those you have vouched for. If people had chosen to use it, the "maria-factor" and "Biggles factor" and "10k club factor" would have been eliminated. In essence, everyone would get a custom view of the database. In addition, a vouch would mean a little more, since it would "cost" you in terms of diluting your own view. Conversely, the temptation for abusive complaints would diminish, since the effect would only go as far as your gang.

vegasvic points out that, those who have been around awhile know who the droppers are. RepBot was a simple attempt at speed up that word-of-mouth.

Perhaps replacing the 'ask' command with 'firends' command would satisfy Patti? Somehow, since I am the one suggesting it, I doubt it. Maybe maria of socksey or diane should suggest it.
http://www.fibs.com/fibs_interface.html#repbot_friends

I would have thought maria would have been in favor of it, and try to convince everyone to use it, but that would have required thinking. <--that last part editted by socksey For her, here is a nutshell description of a similar system, with lots of pictures:
http://getoutfoxed.com/nutshell

[sackofjaweea]

I love repbot.

Before it, I was dropped on all the time.

No, since I don't play people with negative reputations, I almost NEVER get dropped on.

I believe that's the whole idea of repbot, and to this end it works extremely well.

Keep on keepin' on, repbot!

Now let's get rid of JOKEBOT and QUOTEBOT!

--sackofjaweea (aka sackofshit, sackofshitweea, sackofjapeepee, etc.)

[adrian]

I will die without knowing the number of saved games a player has. I use and value the "friends" command, and I ALWAYS use the "list" command before making  decision, despite the math sign before the reputation.  I am aware of players vouched by my "sworn enemies" and I don`t play them, even if their rep. is sky high.  
If repbot will be gone, I BEG to Solomon, Peter and Pykos to add the "show saved" feature for opponent. I hate to waste time with droppers, if there is a way to avoid them beforehand.

[mrbond]

IMO, vouches and complaints mean little. I have played against players with apparently bad reputations and have found them to be pleasent and a good sport, and I have played some reputable players who have acted in a totally inappropiate and an ignorant manner!!

I would, however, dearly love to have a "resolve" function, whereby, should a match be terminated unexpectedly it can award the game to the player depending on the position.   A time frame can be given to resume the saved game before having it resolved!








PS: I still haven't vouched for mookie!      

[lewscannon]

my 2 cents:

i don't use repbot, due to the manipulation factor. i do use the saved games site when invited by a suspicious looking player (no, not mookie in drag. an 1750+ with low experience) repbot has potential, but the 'lord of the flies' attitude has to go.

[snowflakes]

This should be reason enough why repbot should be shot and killed!

You tell RepBot: list alef

RepBot says: alef's complainers: Anthony_J, Biggles, Biggles_two, Bobber, campesino, einstein, Honeygirl, Honeygirl_ll, katita, lucap, NIHILIST, snowflakes, yisgav
RepBot says: alef's vouchers: aleksander, amarganth, AMETHYST, Anika, artoor, austin, avik, Backwoods, bergkamp, billz, blottie, boardking, bthax, BushSucks, c_a_russell
RepBot says: alef's vouchers (cont'd): Carolina_Blue, chopos, Chris, CokeBear, comicopia, cordero, cowgirl, crueger, DaKid, DDEEBBZZ, diane, Dina, dlevy, doof, dus
RepBot says: alef's vouchers (cont'd): Dusty, EddieVedd, eeniemeenie, fibsy, GeorgeB, GordonH, grasshopper, grillbill, Hardy_whv, hiromi, HumanIAm, ibt, jant, jasonj, javiator
RepBot says: alef's vouchers (cont'd): jimbok, jkreed, Jojo, jokirk, Jons, jrham, juggler, Kamen, klic, kramdenfan, LisaS, MacMom, MadMatt, magic_one, mandie
RepBot says: alef's vouchers (cont'd): maria, marvs, Matrasback, MattsDad, maturin, Mlauzon, MND, moomee, moonshadow, Mort, Mr_Completely, nairda, nilla, Nis, Noah
RepBot says: alef's vouchers (cont'd): noodle, Norlan, OpenWheel, Orclev, Patrixia, Paul_William, phs, PIHB, Polfarer, qaid, QuasauQ, r_c, raphix, resipsa, rinit
RepBot says: alef's vouchers (cont'd): rkent, rodr, rollingfool, rossmann, runfast, sackofjaweea, satrun, scardy, shahgammon, Shuggie_II, silent_greek, Silverwind, Sinalove, Slipshod, snoo
RepBot says: alef's vouchers (cont'd): spielberg, Stefanie, sunray, TAE, tansley, taylor, TheExecutioner, Thouni, toe, Tomawaky, tomgraf, trailor, tryout, tucsonAZ, Tygger
RepBot says: alef's vouchers (cont'd): ufuk, vegasvic, Viskari, voodoo_roller, wallace, watchmen, webrunner, windy, Wizzard_of_Ozz, wyzzz, yyy, zakasax, Zorba
RepBot says: alef's complaints: afendi, badass, baldwin, Biggles, Biggles_two, Bobber, buzzman, Chmurek, csg, evilomlap, fungie, gonogo, hopper, Jackson, jazzman
RepBot says: alef's complaints (cont'd): katita, Krusty, MMagnani, NIHILIST, scuba, Simon, snowflakes, vegasvic, vic, wolfla, wunbungtung, yisgav
RepBot says: alef's vouches: _shortptr, acepoint, aceshaw, adihaim, ahsme, aki, alexe, alfredo, amarganth, AMETHYST, Amy, Andy_Germain, Anika, antigoni, AntMAn
RepBot says: alef's vouches (cont'd): artoor, austin, avik, B_A_N_K, Backwoods, baghira, barrycrooks, BComptrom, bergkamp, BillBill, billpapa, billz, Blotman, blottie, boardking
RepBot says: alef's vouches (cont'd): BSinclair, bthax, burper, BushSucks, c_a_russell, campesino, Carolina_Blue, Cheetah, chipski, chopos, Chris, clau, clay, CokeBear, comicopia
RepBot says: alef's vouches (cont'd): coolpaula, cordero, cougar, cowgirl, criminee, crueger, CutiePieII, cycle, DaKid, dalila, daniels, davide, DDEEBBZZ, denver, diane
RepBot says: alef's vouches (cont'd): Dina, dlevy, Dodgy, donzaemon, doof, doom, dorbel, dosenwurst, dsloan, dus, Dusty, EddieVedd, eeniemeenie, ekka, eliot
RepBot says: alef's vouches (cont'd): Feklhr, fergy, fibsy, fister, fiveboze, flashpoint, FotoMan, frankb, fri, funny, general, GeorgeB, georgehayduke, gnomysTwo, goats_milk
RepBot says: alef's vouches (cont'd): goblinprof, GordonH, grasshopper, griff, grillbill, Grohbyl, guggus, Hardy_whv, HARINCOZ, HARVEY, Heinz, hhenry, hiromi, hokra, Holg
RepBot says: alef's vouches (cont'd): holkeri, houtx, HumanIAm, Humanutan, ian, ibt, iloveit, indianajones, ingy, inthecan, ioni, jag, jant, jasonj, javiator
RepBot says: alef's vouches (cont'd): jimbok, jkreed, Joanne, Joe_F, Jojo, jokirk, jonnyray, Jons, jpb, jps, jrham, jtemp, juanz, juggler, Kamen
RepBot says: alef's vouches (cont'd): Kari_Grandi, kingfish, kipros, kitwoolsey, klic, kramdenfan, lene, leveler, lewscannon, LisaS, lnevo, lrb, macavity, MacMom, MadMarc
RepBot says: alef's vouches (cont'd): MadMatt, maeuschen, magic_one, mandie, maria, marti, marvin, marvs, Matrasback, MattsDad, maturin, maudia, melpaul, mgnu_advanced, mgnu_expert
RepBot says: alef's vouches (cont'd): mgnu_WClass, michaelsw, mjan, Mlauzon, mlp, MND, Monday, monitor, MonteCarlo, mookie, moomee, moonshadow, Mort, Mortsport, mpopj
RepBot says: alef's vouches (cont'd): Mr_Completely, Mr_Tubbly, muuri, mws, nairda, naldrich, narongt, Nediboy, neildown, NICK_L, nilla, Nis, nixo, Noah, Nondas
RepBot says: alef's vouches (cont'd): noodle, Norlan, numb, OHFish, OpenWheel, Orclev, ozone, Patrixia, Patti, Paul_William, peanuts, Pebbles, phs, pierrot, PIHB
RepBot says: alef's vouches (cont'd): pita, piuma, point, Polfarer, punketty, qaid, QuasauQ, QWerner, r_c, Ral, raphix, rastaman, rbooth, Regina, regulator
RepBot says: alef's vouches (cont'd): RepBot, resipsa, rinit, ritagru, rkent, rodr, roller, rollingfool, rom, RomanP, ronkarr, rossmann, ruma, runfast, sackofjaweea
RepBot says: alef's vouches (cont'd): Sakis, saleeby, SandyPar, santaclaus, satrun, scardy, Schigolch, Scubaken, Seadog, seda, shahgammon, Sharon, silent_greek, Silverwind, Sinalove
RepBot says: alef's vouches (cont'd): SirLuzalot_, skimo, Slipshod, slug, slw, snoo, sobolanul, socksey, spartiati, spielberg, splehadoy, Stefanie, steffan, Strangas, SubtleOne
RepBot says: alef's vouches (cont'd): sunray, svito, TAE, talmap, tansley, tavlafan, TawlehRayess, taylor, Tetzlaff, TGTHEGREAT, TheExecutioner, Therese, Thouni, tiki, tinker
RepBot says: alef's vouches (cont'd): tjking, toe, tom, Tomawaky, tomgraf, tomkeith, tomkinson, tonn, trailor, trice, Trilobite, trotteur, tryout, tucsonAZ, tuscal
RepBot says: alef's vouches (cont'd): Tygger, tyke, ufuk, venhigh, vido, Viskari, vitaman, vonne, voodoo_roller, wallace, Wallenstein, watchmen, weaky, wiljo, win_fried
RepBot says: alef's vouches (cont'd): windy, wingtsun, Wizzard_of_Ozz, wojoro, wordman, wyzzz, yes, Yetiman, yyy, zakasax, zanzibar, zdoc, Zorba, zyxtcba

[burper]

You'll have to explain further snowflakes. What was the point? That shows me that there are:
-a lot of fibs users whom alef is willing to refer other users to as "trusted" and "enjoyable" opponents
-a lot of fibs users who feel alef would be a trusted and enjoyable opponent
-a handful who feel the opposite about alef
-a handful who alef feels the opposite about.

Do you mean the high usage? That indicates RepBots' popularity to me.
Honestly, what is the point you were trying to make?

BTW, my original implementation called for a cap of 10 in each category. I felt that a limit would cause the value of each complaint and vouch to be considered more carefully before it was rendered, knowing that you have only that many. Avi felt otherwise, or was convinced by those that felt strongly about it, to uncap it.

I had a feeling that the Biggles, maria and 10k-club phenomena would evolve, but I also felt that RepBot was better served if other opinions than my own werer factored into it.

Its' an open-source project. If you want to be involved with it: https://sourceforge.net/projects/repbot
That is, if you have something more insightful to say than "I think it should be shot because I don't like it", or "its' fundamentally flawed because I didn't think of it first", "it can be manipulated because I haven't bothered to learn about the friends command", or "its' a pc of crap cause I say so" etc...

In particular, the start of a discussion of the friends command:
http://sourceforge.net/forum/forum.php?thr...forum_id=176712

[Shuggie]

Keep repbot. Vouch mookie.

[Patti]

It's fundamentally flawed because it allows you to complain about someone that you have no direct experience with.  That's a huge design flaw, and a relatively simple one to fix.  

[adrian]

I wonder why it wasn`t fixed yet

[Mookie]

While we're "fixing" things that are fundamentally flawed, would anyone like to work on vegasvic?

mookie

[burper]

It's fundamentally flawed because it allows you to complain about someone that you have no direct experience with.  That's a huge design flaw, and a relatively simple one to fix.

The thinking behind that aspect of RepBot was this (at least my portion of it): if someone is shouting something objectionable, or you are hearing via trusted users that they are doing objectionable things, you ought to be able to render your opinion based on that. In other words, the reputation was seen as casting a wider net that just droppers.

I assume by 'easy to fix' that you mean it could check the savedgames list, or maintain one of its own via toggle report, and only accept opinions between users who have recently started matches.

What if someone logs in and it is obvious to you that they are the same person with a different nickname? You would have to start a new match with them in order to render an opinion?

Here is a direct question for Patti: if the only thing that changed, was that the 'ask' RepBot command was replaced with the functionality of the 'friends' command, would that satisfy your definition of a solution? I believe it removes both the motivation for, and the effects of, "abuse".

Oops, let me revise that. The other critical change is to the address field as she has specified.

[webrunner]

Patti,
Lets keep at the problem at hand.
I thought you wanted to shut it down because it causes people to complain to you since there is no 'official place" for stuff about repbot, or at least.. it is not communicated.
That has nothing to do with the design or functions of repbot. Furthermore.. since repbot is open source it can be enhanced, unlike fibs.

I offered a solution for this, why is that not good enough?
I'll even setup an emmailbox for repbot if that is neccesary.
In my opinion there is no other reason to shut it down, or is it causing trouble on the fibs server?

[Patti]

I want to get rid of it because it causes multiple problems.  The main problems are that people complain to me about things that happen with RepBot, and that there's a huge exploitable hole in it that causes me to have to do a lot of cleanup on FIBS.

I don't believe that the former can be reasonably solved-- people are going to whine to me regardless, though social engineering could reduce this problem.  I do believe that the latter can, and I participated in an extensive design discussion for a solution over a year ago.  I can't remember who was involved, though... Jeepsy?  Jonesy?

It's also violating a FIBS rule by not having valid contact information for an administrator.  If there's a problem with a bot on FIBS, I want to be able to get in touch with the owner of said bot, and I want any user on the system to also have that ability.  Unless the dropbox goes to someone who can Solve The Problem Right Now, it's insufficient.  (This is trivial to fix.  All the current owner has to do is log in and use the "address" command to enter his email address.  Voila!)

And yes, RepBot causes trouble on the server.  The problem it causes is that some people will create multiple accounts, throw lots of matches between them to build up experience, and then bomb RepBot with complaints.  I then have to go in and clean up.

As for burper's friend command solution, I'm not sure that will work terribly well.  What happens if a user is new to FIBS?  Since experienced users already know who the droppers are, RepBot is most useful to newcomers.  And if newcomers can't get sufficient information, what's the value?


I've seen a lot of people over the years say that they want to fix RepBot, but nobody has ever stepped up to the plate to do anything about it.  Maybe this time they will-- the current situation is no longer workable for me.

[hss]

RepBot is just mechanized  gossiping and against fundamental principles of fainess and justice.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Audi_alteram_partem

Once I asked someone. Why do you complain abou me? and he did not even know why.

[burper]

As for burper's friend command solution, I'm not sure that will work terribly well.  What happens if a user is new to FIBS?  Since experienced users already know who the droppers are, RepBot is most useful to newcomers.  And if newcomers can't get sufficient information, what's the value?

I don't put users into those two narrow bins: "brand new", and "all knowing". Most users are somewhere in between. If you define "new" as having experience 0, meaning they don't play very much, then it hardly matters does it? And experienced users that instantly know who all the droppers are? That doesn't exist.

What happens when a new user logs in and there is no RepBot at all? Not much different from a friends-only RepBot. But it doesn't take very long for people to start making friends. Make just one vouch after your first match and you have a tiny bit better idea of who to play. Better than none at all. Does your definition of "new" cover someone with experience==3?

How about after they've played 20 matches or so, and maybe been dropped once or twice. Still "new"? With a friends-only RepBot, they would have *some* reputation information to go by, and more as they went on. Inf act, 20 matches worth.

And the all-knowing ones? How can they know about a "new" nick, unless perhaps someone or two people on their list has alerted them to the new dropper? How can the "experienced users", however you define them for me, know about droppers that don't even exist yet?

But go ahead and bend reality anyway you want Patti, its' clear your mind is made up, and its' your server. Why discuss it at all? Just pull the damn plug already. Can you really stand another 40 days of RepBot frustration?

[Patti]

You're extending "I played a match successfully with this person once", to, "I trust this person's judgment."  I don't think that's a valid leap.