Formal complaint

[Biggles]

I had a very unpleasant situation arise in the BAGOlympic tournament that I would like to relay to the TD community.  Maybe you can all come to consensus on what to do in this situation, because it is highly irritating.

The BAGOlympics were supposed to start at 3:00 my time and be administered by gogogiz.  At 2:45, gogogiz still hadn't shown up, so I turned to mano asking if he was going to start registering people to play.  He finally started around 2:50, and we didn't get started until close to 3:15.  So, it appeared mano was running the show.

I played my tourney matches and made the final, only to have to wait on an individual named scardy who was playing in the other bracket.  He played AMAZINGLY slow, and it was apparent that every move was excruiatingly painful to wait for.  Mano (who was scardy's opponent in the semis) even commented on how terribly slow this individual played.  I waited and waited and waited and waited.  Scardy actually beat mano 3-0 or else it would have taken an additional hour to wait.  

The time was now 5:00 which was 45 minutes before I needed to leave.  Knowing that scardy was playing at a snail's pace, I asked the TD Mano what could we do if he continued to play this slow and we weren't going to finish.  He made the decision and verified with me several times, that we could continue the match the following day if things didn't pick up.    We played VERY slow (even me commenting to scardy that this was crazy), although scardy seemed to have no problem chatting to others in shout or kibitz during the match.

Meanwhile, gogogiz FINALLY shows up during my match.  I'm still considering mano as the TD, and really don't care much that gogo has showed up.  I tell scardy that I need to leave at 5:45 and that mano told me that we could continue later the next day without penalty to me.  He slows down his play even more at this point, pretty much sealing my fate.  I HAVE to leave at 5:45 and log off.

Today, when I log into FIBS....scardy tells me gogogiz has awarded him the match, even though it's still yet to be finished inside the tourneybot status.  I tell gogogiz that mano made the decision to continue the next day, since he wasn't there to administer the tournament.  Gogo tells me several times that it won't matter because I only played for a while (he says 30 min) and then I left, and scardy waited for me for over an hour (well, no duh....I had to leave), so he rewarded the match to scardy

The TDs in this case are failing to act responsibly.  There needs to be rules about who makes the decisions when someone doesn't show up to run their own tournament.  Mano made the right decision to pick up gogo's slack for failing to show up to his own tournament, but gogo is now in error for overriding the other TD's decision that was made in my favor.

New rules need to be created for SLOW SLOW play.  I understand that some people play slower than others and that we can't always have things quick and easy.  But it's pretty easy to find the slowest of the slow and give them 2 or 3 warnings to speed it up, because it's impacting a lot of other players.

You guys need to get your act together, because that's BS and a waste of my time.
If you guys continue to reward a guy for purposely slowing down play, then I will make sure to remove myself from tourneys and make sure others know about your unfairness.

Biggles

[gogogiz]

hello biggles  have you been to the website and read the rules

http://fibsleagammon.free.fr/bagolympic.htm

i suggest you do!

whats the point in having rules if we don't play by them

[Biggles]

I've also been to the BAGOlympic website:

BAGOlympics

and see that you are listed as Tournament Director.

I suggest you read it!

What's the point of having a tournament, if the TD can't show up to his own scheduled tournament?

How hypocritical you use the argument regarding rules about TIME, when you can't even show up within 2 hours of your own tournament start TIME.   ROFL

Looks like mano, as the active TD in your absence made a decision you can't live with.  Bummer dude....maybe next time, try showing up, and things might not get so screwed up.  You might (had you not shown up 2 hours late) have even seen scardy playing 1 move per 5 minutes and might have actually TAKEN SOME ACTION.....lol....but after todays non-action, I highly doubt it.

[gogogiz]

hello again

yes i was late but an hour only, i was there throughout the rest of the tourney from rnd 1

scardy played all games within 45 mins even if some seemed or were slower than normal.
you played yr 5ptr match for 30 mins only and left to which you now also say connection problems were to blame so make up yr mind..

[Biggles]

Ah, I see.....You were only an hour late.   Again, when it's you we're talking about, an hour late is supposedly OK, right?  

1) You state scardy played his 'games' in 45 minutes.  You probably mean matches, but when they are THREE pointers, how do you justify that??? I mean come on gogogiz......are you serious?

2) I played from 5:00 to 5:45 (simple math shows that to be 45 minutes, MORE than enough time to play a 5 pointer).  Is that really germane here?  I told mano at the BEGINNING that there was NO chance this dude was ever going to get done in time.  Had I had TWO extra hours, it probably wouldn't have been enough.  Where do you draw the line on slow play?  Next time I get to a final, should I just play 1 move every 10 minutes, because I know you'll do nothing?
 
3) Be honest dude.  You didn't show up until my match with scardy started.  Well over 2 hours from the beginning.  Had you seen how slow he actually played, you would have done something about it prior.  You didn't do squat.

4) Never had connection problems.  Where did I ever state or say this?   This almost sounds like a don kind of accusation.  I had to coach a baseball team across town, and had no choice but to leave.  Never in my wildest dreams would I predict a 3/5 tourney taking THREE effing hours, gogo.  Should I not sign up for a tournament next time, because scardy will drag it out for three or four hours, because of your inability to make it to your own tournament or you to do anything about it even when you're there?   ROFL

Keep attempting to cover for yourself dude......you're just digging yourself into a deeper and deeper hole.

[Biggles]

One last thing.......

Slow play or not isn't really the issue here.......I'm not going to talk about it anymore because it's not the thing I came here to talk about in the first place.



Mano, as ACTING tourament director, made a decision.  I expect you to stand by his decision, since you missed running your own tournament.     Whether you were 1 hour late, 2 hours late, or 4 hours late, mano opened the tournament, and from where I was sitting, he was running it.

I saw no shout, tell or kibitz indicating anything otherwise.

Care to comment on that?

[gogogiz]

hello Again biggles

a thought to all of this, while you may rant and rave on about scardy and keep trying to blame it all on me, did you actually ok it with him, i mean did you ask him, pls scardy i have to go can we resume this game tommorow.... as far as scardy has told me you never....

[gammboy]

With all due respect to the TDs and all involved, I must say that Scardy's delaying of the final match in question was excessive, and probably intentional.   Bad sportsmanship at the least,  more like cheating.

In all fairness, I think they should finish the saved match, and the TD should award the win to the victor.  If one of them refuses to play, the other gets the win.

Failing that, Biggles had it won, hands down.  He should get the win.

Besides, if we want to get bogged down in the letter of the rules, Scardy is the one who actually entered the "leave" to drop the match.  Biggles was just delaying his move till he could get back.

Just the opinion of a player that was watching.

GB

[JonJon]

It seems like this topic should be in the tourneybot forum to me...

Biggles, remember that each individual TD can make whatever rules for his or her tourney that he or she sees fit. If you don't like the rules or the manner in which a particular tourney was handled, then don't play in that TD's tourneys anymore. Don't think that whatever happened in that tourney happens in every tourney, or that a decision that went one way one time, will do so everytime. Each TD is different, and thus every tourney is different. Don't lambast the whole group for a decision that one person made.

Everybody rememeber that each TD can make up his or her own rules as they see fit. If you don't like a particular ruling, don't play in that persons tourneys anymore...

[Biggles]

You need to read the whole thread Jon Jon......a tournament started by one TD (mano), who made a ruling in my favor is now being overturned by a TD that MISSED running his own tournament.  Please pay attention.


GOGOGIZ - yes, in fact I told scardy that I was needing to go, AND that mano agreed we could finish it later, and he said it was fine, and logged off as gammboy confirmed.  Thanks for asking.

Any more information you need?

Biggles

[mano]

hello !
no time now to explain all but in a few words : YES i told Biggles he could leave the match and resume it later IF scardy aggrees.
What i forgot is to have an answer from scardy before i leave this day ... oops !
The next day, scardy and biggles was on fibs ... scardy watched some match but never answer me i tried a lot to ask him/her to resume with Biggles but never answered to me .....

I have to work now ( out of fibs !) so if any TD could in the days coming, check if scardy and Biggles could resume ... that would let this bagolympic session beeing ended ....
If one of the players doesn't want to resume then the other must have the win .

[scardy]

Dear fibsters and biggie
may i just say that the events surrounding the BAGOlympic session the other night have spoilt a really good tourney.I played my matches by the rules.i didnt go over the time limits and played only 25 mins max in the final. I was surprised when biggles dropped the connection(without a word of explanation) after rejecting my cube.I was not informed by any TD of the need to resume at a later date, I knew biggles  had something to do but thought it may be a ploy of some sort to disrupt me,he never asked me anything durring the tourney(dont think he asks much ,think he s in the tell catagory)I waited for over an hour to resume the match and when he didnt show up(i now know why)Gogogiz awarded the match to me and thats the  end of the story.What does suprise me is that someone such as he, lets himself down by trying every which way to blame all but his self.This tourney is in essence the BG oylimpics, open to people of all countries and of different standards of play.Obviously Biggles is in the top level of this but should allow enough time as set down in the rules to play untill the end.There were fewer people entered in the tourney on this night and therefore he was lucky that there werent any more rounds. I dont want to go on because to much has been said already and this kind of "mud slinging" is out of order and takes the enjoyment out of the whole event ,which has been brilliant until now.And to all, SHUT UP and get on with the next one, another day another hangover.  thanks,  scardy

[Biggles]

Unfortunately for you scardy, Gogogiz wasn't the tournament director of record for this tournament.

Mano opened it, and facilitated it.  Gogogiz never shouted, told or kibitzed that he was even around to take over being the TD.

Mano made the decision to carry on with the tournament the next day, so I expect you to follow the active TDs decision in this matter.  If he didn't properly communicate this to you at the time, there was really no way for me to know that.  I did, in fact, did tell you what was going on (you're lying if you say otherwise).  I talked to Mano again today, and he validated that he will make sure to give the yet-to-be-determined winner the appropriate points in Olympics.  If you don't agree to finish, Mano will declare me the winner.

Pretty much all there is to say about the matter.  See you on FIBS soon, although I'm doubting your motivation to finish the match, you being behind 3-1 and all.

Biggles

[mano]

hum .... i read your post scardy ... and thx to make a sign because i tried to chat with you a lot theses days with no answer from you ...

Does that mean you don't want to resume your match with biggles ?

If that's the case the win goes to biggles as i told him it was a possibility to resume an other day IF you aggree .... what you did if i believe what biggles said ( read upon) ... please confirm that !
Where we are now : the only solution is to resume fairly your match . With no answer from you YES, the win goes to biggles as said before .
May Tomawaky advice should help ... i said what i thought about this ... for my view >> where's the matter if you both need the time you need to manage to schedule your match ? This bago session is waiting that's all ! when your match is played the result will be include in the global stats ... no hurry ...

last thing : i opened this tourney in a hurry just for helping .... i appointed gogogiz as TD because he was intended to run it by the schedule .... then i made the decision you know ... i hope it will be respected by all as i'm still thinking the fairest way to solve this is to resume this final match .
Then i hope both players will do their best to resume the match.
I thought too backgammon was a game and tourney some funny way to play it ... FAIRPLAY is a good word !

Thx,
mano

[Biggles]

Just for the record, I invited him back 3 times yesterday (Wednesday) with no accept, and he hasn't been on most of the day today (Thursday).

Thanks Mano.

Biggles

[dorbel]

It seems to me that if Mano, acting as the tournament director, gives a ruling, then gogogiz, or anyone else for that matter, has no right to over-rule it. There seems to have been a number of failures to communicate here on all sides. Clearly Biggles and scardy should resume and finish the match, ideally watched by the TD to ensure good behaviour by both. Failure to resume should be considered a resignation. Whatever has happened in the past should stay in the past and a proper friendly spirit of play should prevail. After all, play is just what it is supposed to be.

[mano]

Thx Dorbel ! Exactly :eureka:
But if scardy never reappear ?  

[EddieVedd]

"If Scardy never re-appear......?"

   Then Biggles would be a deserving winner !

[baldwin]

IMHO, Biggles_two left and so he gave away the match. Don't pick up things you can't drag to the end...

Me myself gave away matches just to be able to start in time on tourneymatches i registred for. (no compliments please:))

Rules are only usefull in realy discusfull situations, this can't be one. Leaving a room and closing the door at the same moment isn't a nice way to aproach a tourney match.

Scardy should get the match.

Cheers,

Baldwin  

[purol]

Hi

I saw the tourney that night and because it ended in an anticlimax (for the participants, esp. Biggles and Scardy, for me as a watcher and [i think] for Gogogiz and Mano) I would like to say a few things.

1 - Biggles states that he played the final for 45 mins before leaving the match unfinished. This is absolute nonsense. The final took about 20-25 mins, so no exceeding time limits. It might have been a long BGOlympic but what do you expect from a tourney with 3pt matches/5pt final. If you dont have time for a full tourney, then do not participate.

2 - Communication was the problem. As i understood from the posts, Mano and Biggles did not check with Scardy about saving the match for a later resumption. What went on in tells, i do not know ofcourse, but what i do know is that Biggles imperatively kibitzed "Scardy, i must go now, we have to finish tomorrow. Come find me", and he was gone instantly. (I was quite surprised actually...) No one could respond.  Gogogiz awarded Scardy the win.

3 - Although Biggles claims several times that Mano was the TD, it was Gogogiz' tourney and 'even' Mano says Gogogiz was TD.  So, Biggles, stand by Gogogiz decision.


IMHO, resumption by Scardy would be a nice gesture, but there is
no need for that: Scardy was the winner.



Groetjes,

-- purol