Mini-Matches, To be or not to be?

[vegas_vic]

First I will have to ask you all to bear with all my mistakes here and hope that you will get my point; Second I do not want to sound like Don and be ######ing about nothing, I find 2 game tourneys or 2 game matches  as having no value but to inflate a 1 gamer, meaning its played as a one game for twice the rating points.

Many players on FIBS and other sites have used the 2 gamer to take advantage of weaker players to prey on them just to inflate their own rating points.Here I donââ,¬â,,¢t care if they do or if they donââ,¬â,,¢t I just didnââ,¬â,,¢t want to see people I considered friends using the same tool under the guise of Vic were teaching the newbies how to handle a 2 away game . Pleaseeeeeeeee save me from that one .

I made my displeasure known in shouts about 2 game tourneys, And i tried to make a point that is is not fair to weaker players to be put in this position when they will get there in many games they play as in a 5 gamer to 3-3, I said at least they have played some backgammon and are not playing a one game winner take all.

For all this I was accused by socksey as attacking her personally and it was far from it I was only talking about a tourney that was being played on FIBS, I had said nothing to socksey or gogogiz but I was called a not a nice person and to STFU gramps and to go take my meds. Well compared to some other stuff Iââ,¬â,,¢ve been called on FIBS this is nothing , but this one came from a person that I considered a friend.
.  
What do I mean by this position, let me see if I can explain: if you are weaker player and know the strategy you should know against a stronger player you have to cube right away to bring the match to a 50-50, if you are a weaker player and do not know to cube the stronger player will sit on the dice and try for gammon or cube you when he has a little lead. All advantage is to the stronger player here, he doesnââ,¬â,,¢t really have to cube you and can go to 1-0 and still have a 40%to 20% win ration because of the weaker players errors, all this you can read on this archive http://www.bkgm.com/rgb/rgb.cgi?menu you must scroll down to 2away games.

When you read some of the articles you will see how the cards are stacked against the weaker player in such games, I am not saying here that socksey has set this up to cheat anyone but for her to say to me itââ,¬â,,¢s a nice teaching tool for novice players to learn how to play is just off the mark ,then by all means set a tourney with rating points within 40 points of each other and invite novice players to watch and learn, and not learn by losing their points to stronger and more savvy players.


I would like to also ask here how many of you in fibs have been offered to play a 2 game match? in 70,000 I have been asked once and told the person to take a hike . I wonder if there is a reason that no one offers one ? could it be that it makes zero sense ? itââ,¬â,,¢s a 1 gamer but you lose twice the points , here I come to the idea itââ,¬â,,¢s a rating ploy , NIHL can let you all into how this is used to you advantage he is a pro .
..
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I have played this game since I was 7 years old and I love it dearly and seeing it abused and abused by a friend it hurts even more .
i am sure after this line i will get many responses sayign Vic playing this game since you were 7 years old you still have not learned a thing so save it i have heard it all.

Just to let XXXX or XXXXXXXX know that feed socksey about 2 gamers yes you can play 2 gamers in your league between evenly matched players for fun , this is a open system online and with a point rating system its a abuse of the system to play a 1 gamer at dbl the stakes. to me its the same as playing a 99 games in one game just less points involved ,

Its cheating the system simple as that , ask why no one invites you to a 2 game match and if they do ask your self do you take it if its against a stronger player ?
answer should be no , you will get your clock cleaned .

thanks
Vic.

[diane]

I know you said you didnt want to hear this argument - but since I am speaking from personal experience - I am going to make it anyway.

The minimatches tournament started almost one year ago - in april - at that time I was not aware of the two away rule - nor did I know how to play it.  The discussions around the tournament brought the strategy to my attention - and made my play stronger at any two away situation - I still make mistakes - but I do know what I am supposed to be doing  

The second point is that if I am playing a stronger player - I have more chance in a 2 point match than in, say, an 11 point match - since the luck factors in much more!!  So, I have won plenty of these two point matches against stronger players - and lost them to weaker players. Also bear in mind - the way the rating calculation works -  if a 1400ish players gets the luck - and beats the 1750+ player - the 1400 player does very nicely out of it!! (BTW, that happened may times when I hosted it, and I am sure it will go on happening.)

Result - I see what you are saying in theory - but the reality just doesnt seem to pan out. I do not feel like I was taken advantage of - nor do I feel like I have taken advantage of anyone else.  The list of winners for all the weeks this tournament has run is recorded here on fibsboard - have a scroll throught them - and see how many times lower rated, new or weaker players have won them.  This tournament is a great opportunity for them to beat the 'big names' on fibs, and to win a tournament - and they seem to enjoy it.

The tournament is very popular - and I dont expect it will stop, now it has such a following - so if it bothers you this much, maybe it would be easier if you didnt log in around that time??

[vegas_vic]

Answer the question Diane ?
how many 2 games were you offered in Fibs ?
like i said in my 70,000 games once why is that ?

Can you answer this ? i am sure now that you know how toplay 2away you are stronger
that is not the point here the point is people walk in not knowing and get taken

PS wrong you have more chances in a 11 gamer then a 2 gamer
he has a 40% 20% over you please go read . stronger player doesnt have to cube you,
the weaker player has to and play error free . the numbers dont lie.
You tell me its a tourney to teach players how to handle 2away games fine ill buy that
then there is no reason for anyone that knows this to enter such a tourney
its cheating simple as that
its a one gamer with dbl the stakes

There is no value but the value of reciving more points for a player to join this kind of tourney if you know the 2away stratagy  

[diane]

I am happy to make a discussion out of this - provided it doesnt get nasty - so if I am wrong - feel free to say so - but I will listen more readily if you can do it tactfully  

Firstly - As I mentioned - I started playing in the tournament a year ago, I did not refer to my playing strength now - and I do think part of my improvement has been to grasp, at least on some level, the two away rule - even if I make stupid errors on it still (and kick meself!!).  So - the tournament brought that to my attention - as a beginner.  That was my point .

Players do not invite 2 often - of course - people dont think of it - 1, 3, 5, etc are the 'natural' matchlengths - so - I repeat - isnt this is a means of drawing attention to the situation?

I have more chance in an 11 point match??  I really dont understand that - if you can point me at a specific text - I will try to make sense of it.  All my head says - is that I know I can beat any player in a one point (and therefore 2 pt) match - with nice dice - but I seriously doubt I could even beat you in an 11 point match!!  So, how does the maths come out that I have a better chance against a stronger player over 11 points than over 1/2? If that is what you meant??

Also - you didnt address the issue of the weaker player winning  by just getting lucky - and getting a very nice return on a small investment!

[socksey]

Seems I am a bit late in posting this, so I hope Vic will forgive me for changing the title of the forum and that others will forgive me for repeating some of what Vic has said.  Here's my post:

I am opening this forum thread in order to educate the players of the Mini-Matches Tournament played every Saturday at 1600/1620 on Fibs whose theme is 2-point matches.  There is a webpage, provided by vegasvic, that I will point you to for more discussion and some opinions of a few higher rated and respected players in the larger backgammon community along with some other players who find the game interesting to play.  

You will find this discussion by paging way down to the section titled, "Match Play at 2-away/2-away"; at:  http://www.bkgm.com/rgb/rgb.cgi?memu

Having said that, the reason for this education has been prompted by vegasvic who adamantly opposes the playing of 2-pointers in an open tournament atmosphere.  Read his posts to see what he thinks.

Having in no way any thought of cheating or taking advantage of weaker players, I took umbrage at vegasvic's shouts during the Mini-Match Tournament last Saturday, and I said some things that I didn't mean to him personally.  I thought I was personally under attack since Mini-Matches is my tournament now.  

I don't think I had ever played a 2-pt match until Kari introduced this tourney last year.  I have always had enthusiasm for the tourneys, and so, I played and learned.  I enjoyed the variety, or something different.    

In my opinion, the playing of the 2-pt match is nothing more than the same that is played in any match of 3 or more when you arrive at a 2-away situation, and when this happens, if you know how to play it, the veteran player probably has an advantage over a novice player, if you understand the theory of the game.  

To my way of thinking, since, presumably, the high rated player has the advantage over a novice player in any match.  I certainly could be wrong about that, but that is the reason that I don't understand all the hoopla over the 2-point tourney.

Oh, and, of course, we have the rating system on Fibs which gives an advantage to lower ranked and lower experienced players.    Some veterans of Fibs even say the lower ranked player has an advantage over the play as well, since they insist Fibs dice are calculated to play against a high ranking player if he makes an error in play.

I personally don't care so much for my rating as for the fun of playing. Whether I win or lose doesn't matter so much in a free tourney.  I consider it a way to improve myself by simply playing.

If you have any opinions about this, state them here, please.  I would especially like to hear from the top rated players on Fibs about the 2-away  issue and from vegasvic, specifically, here on fibsboard.

Thank you,

socksey



"We are in the position of a little child entering a huge library filled with books in many different languages. The child knows someone must have written those books . It does not know how. It does not understand the languages in which they are written. The child dimly suspects a mysterious order in the arrangement of the books but doesn't know what it is. That, it seems to me, is the attitude of even the most intelligent human being toward God. We see a universe marvelously arranges and obeying certain laws, but only dimly understand these laws. Our limited minds cannot grasp the mysterious force that moves the constellations." - Albert Einstein

[donzaemon]

Vic,  I don't know ....

First of all I don't understand your argument .... I just plain don't understand it.
How in the world can you say that playing a certain matchlength is unethical or cheating?

backgammon can be played at any matchlength or open, without a matchlength.
Any of these changes make the game a little different and the winning techniques slightly change.  That is part of the fun of the game.  adjusting to parameters.
Backgammon is a game of skill, and part of the skill is adjusting your play to different parameters that come up. The cubing techniques at each and every score vary and it takes a lot of effort to master all of differences, but you can hardly call isolating one of these scores in a tournament 'cheating'.

In backgammon, generally, the longer a match is the more the skill will tend to outweigh the luck. The biggest change may come when you go from 1 to 2 points but it does not stop there. The total equity gain for the stronger player continues to grow as the match gets longer and longer. So you can hardly use the 'unfair' argument without seeing that it is more unfair to play longer matches.
2 point matches do, in fact, take more skill than 1 point matches, and may effectively have an unbalanced weight on the difference in rating, but you can hardly call that cheating. At most it's a flaw in the rating system. It would be ridiculous to ban or try to ban a type of match because the rating system is flawed.  

Why should you try to control how much luck and how much skill there is in a certain type ofmatch ? Or, eliminate a certain type of match because there is too much luck or too much skill ? If we wanted to play a chess tournament on a chess server would you call it cheating because the weaker players have almost no chance to win ? and their poor rating will go down ?

2 point matches take more skill than 1 pointers but less skill than longer matches to win. This graduates over a different curve than the rating system ... but SO WHAT ? If a two point match happens to be the rating/skill ratio peak SO WHAT ?  that is NO REASON to stop playing them. It may, in fact, mean the opposite. That we should embrace them and use them as a focal point for the intricacies of backgammon and play more of these matches because it helps start
to breed the kind of thinking that players need to master the game.

Playing 2 point matches are different, yes, but I really don't understand what you've been constantly ranting about. Hearing you call playing 2 point matches 'abusing backgammon' is really just laughable.

[vegas_vic]

Diane ill point you to this little line

This means that at 2-away/1-away the stronger player
would still have about a 40% chance of winning the match but for
the weaker player it would only be 20%.

you will find more reading on stonger player vs weaker player in a 2away games at this site
http://www.bkgm.com/rgb/rgb.cgi?view+75

i do not know what your chances are in a 11 game match but i assume you would have more then  20% chance of winning.

Please all of you i am not trying to take away something you guys think its fun , just admit it like you said here diane its like playing a one game for dbl the stakes

And your rationale is Vic it taught me how to play 2 aways fine now you know , do you still go on abusing the system and take down players that do not know?

my point is just that .  
I feel i am not a bad player and that i would i am sure win more then lose in 2 gamers but i really find is so unfair to novice players that have no idea what there walking into . Even as sockseys says Vic ill put a disclamer and tell people,

i would still ask once you know the stratgy in a 2 away what is the value but to make more points?
its a 1 gamer with twice the stakes,

God sake ask anyone  how you can change your rating playing 2 gamers all day with newbies

[webrunner]

I don't want to get involved in this fight between certain persons but i have to say.. Vic has a point. Maybe not the point he thinks he is making but i agree with him it is not common practice to play 2-pointers.

Have you ever noticed that 3DFibs doesn't even allow you to invite 2 pointers through the standard inteface? Why do you think that is?
I know TucsonAZ (who created 3DFibs) well enough to know he did that for a reason, it is just not done!

[vegas_vic]

Thank you WEB

[diane]

I don't want to get involved in this fight between certain persons

Please - can this be considered a valid discussion about backgammon and move away from it being a personal issue - or a fight - it isnt! - and as donz says

we should embrace them and use them as a focal point for the intricacies of backgammon and play more of these matches because it helps start to breed the kind of thinking that players need to master the game.

That is exactly what happened for me - now, what worth do the rating points have on fibs really??  The key is to learn here - and take those skills on to real matches - where much more can be gained! (of course have fun too!!)

And your rationale is Vic it taught me how to play 2aways fine now you know , do you still go on abusing the system and take down players that do not know?

Well in truth I havent played one for ages - but - it isnt the way you make it sound - the strategy is shouted at the start - and often a discussion takes place while the signups are in progress. Now - the real answer to your question is yes.  I absolutely would continue to talk about and teach new players about the two away rule - and how to play it - because it helped me enormously - why would I not share that???

[vegas_vic]

i never said it should be limited to higher players

this is wrong i said if you are to have them make them evenly matched like 150-1550 or 1700-1750 and invite people to watch .

there is no reason once you know this stratgy to keep on playing them it is only for gaining more points at the expense of weaker players .

I wish so much that like other sites the tourneys could be unrated and played just for that fun

well they are rated and some things should be played and some should not be , only my opion here.

[socksey]

Have you ever noticed that 3DFibs doesn't even allow you to invite 2 pointers through the standard inteface? Why do you think that is?

It is not common, I agree, but it is done.  I am told that 2 ptrs are a popular match length to play in some tournament circles at least.

there is no reason once you know this stratgy to keep on playing them it is only for gaining more points at the expense of weaker players .

Sorry if i misquoted you, Vic.  If you played categories, I'm wondering how the lower rankers would ever learn anything, unless you propose a lesson environment.  Maybe you would like to run a lesson tourney for newbies before my Mini-Matches on Saturdays?  Maybe on Thursdays you could do that since you feel so strongly about it.  

socksey



I have good looking kids. Thank goodness my wife cheats on me. - Rodney Dangerfield

[Kari_Grandi]

Just to mention few live tournaments:

------------------------------------

LAS VEGAS BACKGAMMON OPEN
November 10-14, 2004; Las Vegas, Nevada

MINI-MATCH #1 (128): 1-Masahiko Nasu (Japan), 2-Osamu Omodera (Japan).
MINI-MATCH #2 (64): 1-Perry Gartner (NJ).

------------------------------------

ABT - MINNESOTA OPEN BACKGAMMON CHAMPIONSHIPS
October 29-31, 2004; Prior Lake, Minnesota

MINI-MATCHES (48): 1-Mike Sharp (CA).

------------------------------------

ABT - 53rd GAMMON ASSOCIATES INVITATIONAL BACKGAMMON TOURNAMENT
June 11-13, 2004; Los Angeles, California

2-POINT QUICKIES (48): 1-Judy Collins.

[webrunner]

Well i for one will not play two pointers (i don't play tourneys anyway so why am i even commenting here?), simply because i don't want the hassle of typing my invite command by hand    

[vegas_vic]

Sockseyyyyyyyyyyyy
yes its done it is done as a money game
its a high stakes game it is not ment for this kind of forum

any leg you have on to stand is it is a tool to teach 2away then its over

no need to play them once you know how,

i reapeat 2 gamers in real life are played for money

you have a wager at lets say 100 dollors a point
and play it .
you win 2-1 you get 100 you win 2-0 you get 200

and if the weaker player cubes and gets gammoned suckerrrrrrrr he lost 400 dollors

yes socks that it is played is this what you want FIBS to be ?
there are money sites

i have seen Kari  many times wants to play for money and use paypal or some other form

maybe this is what he would like to have 2 gamers and have it for money at the end of the day.

Fibs is not the place  

[Kari_Grandi]

i have seen Kari many times wants to play for money and use paypal or some other form

Many times?? Only when NIHI has asked me in shouts to play for mone and only then. As I said you have a selective memory!    

[vegas_vic]

Take your money games to Gamesgrid along with your 2 gamers Kari  

[vegas_vic]

Lets define the tern popular Ms socksey ?
they are not popular and are very rare .

[diane]

ERM - what weaker player is playing a match for 100 dollars a point? They are a sucker whatever else may happen!!!!!  

[Chris]

vegas_vic, you are saying, 2 ptrs are the same as 1 ptrs, just at twice the stake.

That's not totally wrong, usually one of the players should double very early and the other should take so that only one game is played.
For weaker players I suggest to double always as fast as they are allowed to do. And I really mean always.
Twice the stake is not right, take a look at the rating formula.

I have a rating of 1825 at the moment. Let's say I play a 1 or a 2 pointer against a player with a rating of 1425,
rating difference is 400.
If my weaker opponent doubles immediately, I always have to take the double and we are playing only 1 game - similar to a 1 ptr.

With a 1 ptr I would win 1.55 points and lose 2.45 points. That means if I win 61% of all these 1 ptrs our ratings would not change. If I win more than 61% iin the long run my rating would rise and vice versa.

With a 2 ptr I would win 1.94 points and lose 3.72 points. That means if I win 66% of all these 1 ptrs our ratings would not change.

See, vegas_vic - 61% vs 66%. If my weaker opponent doubles always (A weak player participating in such a tourney should be able to understand this rule) he/she will have an advantage playing 2 ptrs instead of 1 ptrs.

So if you are interested in ratings: Good players should avoid 2 ptrs, weak players should prefer them to 1 ptrs.

(Of course, if a weak player forgets doubling - he is fooled. But hey, at least this is reflected in some way in the rating formula. As I said before - If you participate in such a tourney then you should have heard about doubling in 2 ptrs ...)