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Seeding by Rating: fair or unfair?

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Offline socksey

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Re: Seeding by Rating: fair or unfair?
« Reply #20 on: December 04, 2010, 08:08:16 PM »
Here I am making one more comment on this subject.   :wacko:  After a conversation with sixtie this morning, and being more thoroughly confused, I went to Challonge.com to set up another tourney and found this regarding seeding methods as defined by them:

Traditional (recommended)
Pair players using traditional seeding rules. Top seeds are paired with lower seeds in the 1st round. Also, top seeds will not meet up with each other until later rounds.

Sequential
Pairings are made by going straight down the list of participants. First round matches are filled in top to bottom, then qualifying matches (if applicable).

-----------------------------------------

Now clear on Traditional, I take this to mean what it says, and I am back to my original opinion before dorbel succeeded in changing it.  Sorry, dorbel.   :blush:  My tourneys remain sequential/random.

socksey



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« Last Edit: December 08, 2010, 12:10:48 AM by socksey »

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Re: Seeding by Rating: fair or unfair?
« Reply #20 on: December 04, 2010, 08:08:16 PM »

Offline dorbel

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Re: Seeding by Rating: fair or unfair?
« Reply #21 on: December 04, 2010, 08:40:19 PM »
I haven't the faintest idea what challonge means by traditional. Frankly socksey, I don't think that you do either, but if you do, perhaps you could explain it to me. You could start by telling me how challonge decides who the seeded players are?
I note that LuckyDice runs his tournaments without appearing to use either of these methods, ie, there is no seeding and players are not paired in their order of entry.
« Last Edit: December 04, 2010, 08:45:58 PM by dorbel »

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Re: Seeding by Rating: fair or unfair?
« Reply #21 on: December 04, 2010, 08:40:19 PM »

Offline Tom

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Re: Seeding by Rating: fair or unfair?
« Reply #22 on: December 04, 2010, 08:43:36 PM »
The Challonge supports two different seedings, actually three, those 2 and manually set.

TourneyBot supports the following:

Random
Rating Highest is #1 Seed
Registration Order
Experience Highest is #1 Seed
Name (I think A is Highest and Z is Lowest)
Custom set by ALLOW command (ALLOW for Top Seeds, random for the rest)

And at Donz's suggestion it also supports REVERSE RATING, Lowest Rating is #1 Seed

I would like to echo Sixtie's common goal of encouraging participation.
He and I talk at length from time to time about ways to encourage it.

I am working very hard on features and improvements to make tourney play on fibs
seamless for players and painless for TDs.

Fear Not some of this redundant head butting is helping to bring out some good ideas
for new features!

tom

Offline LuckyDice

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Re: Seeding by Rating: fair or unfair?
« Reply #23 on: December 06, 2010, 09:45:01 PM »
Hi folks,

I really didn't want to jump into this discussion about seeding, but this is going to be a proclaim of sixtie to export his ideas into the whole tourney scene on FIBS. He should stay with Bloodys and do it his way and not trying to infect the brilliant job and following ideas of Naavanaxx.

Short and emphatic: I don't like any seeding, except by random....all other is unfair here and not needed.
It doesn't interest me what kind of seeding is used in chess or baseball or..or.. .
We are here on fibs and want to have fun, with equal chances.

I have played a lot of live tourneys, including big ones, in Germany. Each tourney had a random draw.
Even a ranking tourney, played over 12 months and held by a professional td for years, had a random draw.

Answering to dorbel: in challonge is the preset to traditional. You can read the explanation in challonge.
Yes, I don't use either of methods. No, not really...I use traditional, but I overrule it.
Long ago I noticed, before using challonge, that players were trying to calculate their opponent  by the time of registering.
I always shuffled the players listing before drawing the bracket. This is my real random seeding.
So I do in challonge, but many players doesn't realize it and register late. :-)
Some say, I can shuffle till the bracket suits me well. Yes, I could do it....I will rather give up being a td instead of being totally unfair. That's not my style.

So folks, think well about this senseless never ending discussion.
Have fun on FIBS, enjoy the tourneys with equal chances, without seeding other than random.
Make it equal, fair and understandable for everyone.
Naava is on the right track and I support him in his attempts as td and his work all around it.

Player with high rating (which way ever they rached it) can stay out if the are feared to lose points.
They lose points when playing low ranked players, and they know why. ( see the FIBS project )

greetings to all

LuckyDice

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Re: Seeding by Rating: fair or unfair?
« Reply #23 on: December 06, 2010, 09:45:01 PM »

Offline PersianLord

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Re: Seeding by Rating: fair or unfair?
« Reply #24 on: December 06, 2010, 11:04:49 PM »
I shall vote for no seeding. Seeding in FIBS is pointless to me. A tourney in which seeding based on rating is implemented gives a less chance for the weaker players to win the trophy and this is not fun.

PL
The leftist's feelings of inferiority run so deep that he cannot tolerate any classification of some things as successful or superior and other things as failed or inferior. This also underlies the rejection by many leftists of the concept of mental illness and of the utility of IQ tests.  - T.K

Offline stog

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Re: Seeding by Rating: fair or unfair?
« Reply #25 on: December 06, 2010, 11:16:33 PM »
the vote is here..... http://www.fibsboard.com/tourneybot/tournament-seeding-a-good-thing/

currently 10 out of 20 in favour of 'random', 4 for seeding by rating,2 seeded by previous wins, 4 by tourney registration  order -- which is quintessentially random :)

so i make that 14 for random, 6 for seeded........

Offline sixty_something

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Re: Seeding by Rating: fair or unfair?
« Reply #26 on: December 07, 2010, 02:36:37 AM »
what a hoot, i.e. this is hilarious :lol:

but like the old huckster said to his protege -- son, any publicity, even bad publicity, is good publicity .. toward that end, this dialog is definitely increasing the awareness of issues surrounding tournaments at FIBS .. toward that end, the sinister scheming and plotting of ol' sixtie, moi, seems to be increasing participation in tournaments at FIBS .. as a minority one, i couldn't be happier

God forbid we might actually have new players and new TD's with new ideas to enliven FIBS once staid old tournament structure, or should i say absence of structure .. when i first started playing in tourneys at FIBS a few years ago (2006 or 2007, i don't remember at the moment), there were essentially three weekly tournaments: BagOlymics, twice a week at 4 AM my time, socksey's Mini Matches, and F3's -- four actual chances to play in tourneys a week!

never realizing this was a Holy Trinity, i created the Bloody Mary on Sundays .. but now, i am beginning to feel like Martin Luther posting lists on the door of the cathedral suggesting that players and TD's have the right to choose any type of tourney they like, any time they like

i can't speak for Martin Luther, but i certainly don't expect or demand anyone to do things my way .. however, i will create lists, look at new and different ideas, and write about them ad nauseum,  as long as i am able .. but not once have i ever suggested or demanded that anyone should do it my way or not do it at all

despite continued lip service to our only meaningful tournament standard, that a TD may run a tourney anyway he or she chooses, there sure seems to be a strong demand for conformity .. if only for the sake of fair and random, those are false gods, IMHO .. as the young huckster, Martin Luther, said to the Pope, Father, what a crock, i.e. an old fashioned cooking vessel filled with sh!t

i'd say more and shall, much more, but i am way too busy :lol: and enjoying the surge in awareness, interest, and participation in FIBS tournaments .. thanks to all, other TD's and players, for the feedback and support in accomplishing those goals
:s40:
« Last Edit: December 07, 2010, 09:32:37 AM by sixty_something »
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Offline diane

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Re: Seeding by Rating: fair or unfair?
« Reply #27 on: December 07, 2010, 08:08:59 AM »
Yup, fibsters like things to be all the same, and it must be their version of 'the same'.

They struggle deeply with the concept...here is what I am offering..you can buy it or walk on by.. ;)
Never give up on the things that make you smile

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Re: Seeding by Rating: fair or unfair?
« Reply #27 on: December 07, 2010, 08:08:59 AM »

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